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Incoming Firegrab nerf


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#31 EatThisShoe

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:00 AM

View PostRrafaz, on 27 November 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

An ele's combo (with DT) takes 4 or so seconds to fully execute, with a 1 second (or so it seems) window for the enemy to stunbreaker or otherwise move out of the DT red circle, meaning his whole combo is suddenly for naught. On the other hand, thief can execute his combo in under 1 second, invisible the entire time, and hey, if that doesn't work, hit a HS or two to finish them off. In short:

Ele's have to hit a still target, while thieves can do as much damage, if not more, while invisible, instantly, on moving targets. As if that's not enough, a Ele, when his combo is over, cannot simply just shadowstep away if the target isn't dead/enemy countered his combo. A thief can do all of that and more.
If the combo doesn't work stop using it. You can land Phoenix or Fire Grab even without any CC and they both hit harder than DT, you don't need your target to stand still for anything but DT. You can also use Earthquake -> Phoenix, or Earthquake -> Drake's Breath for 1 tick -> Fire Grab both of which can apply Grounded bonus if you choose to take it. Gale on the focus can substitute Earthquake. Updraft -> Phoenix is close but I'm pretty sure you can land 2/3 of the hits before they can move. The desire to land the "full combo" is just going to make you waste spells that you could land if you cast them normally. If you want to land Dragon's Tooth use Signet of Earth or Deep Freeze on the frost bow, either lasts long enough for DT, Phoenix and Fire Grab all together.

I don't know what you guys expect when comparing ele to thief. Ele has AoE burst, and they can still land single spells for 6-10k and add instant damage effects on top. If you don't like a glass cannon ele fine, don't run it, I prefer air/water/arcane Valkyrie's builds myself, but don't claim our damage is bad because you wont run a build with as much power and as many +% damage traits as the thief you are comparing it to. Even if you run a berserker's amulet you can still expect a 30 water 30 arcane build do do a lot less damage than 30 fire 30 air, and that's what you should expect. I never said thief burst was bad, or even balanced, I said ele damage is comparable if you actually compare builds with the same amount of damage traits.

#32 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:06 PM

View PostRrafaz, on 27 November 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

An ele's combo (with DT) takes 4 or so seconds to fully execute, with a 1 second (or so it seems) window for the enemy to stunbreaker or otherwise move out of the DT red circle, meaning his whole combo is suddenly for naught. On the other hand, thief can execute his combo in under 1 second, invisible the entire time, and hey, if that doesn't work, hit a HS or two to finish them off. In short:

Ele's have to hit a still target, while thieves can do as much damage, if not more, while invisible, instantly, on moving targets. As if that's not enough, a Ele, when his combo is over, cannot simply just shadowstep away if the target isn't dead/enemy countered his combo. A thief can do all of that and more.

This. Also you don't even have to use a stunbreaker. Updraft knockdown is too short to guarantee DT landing. Just spam your dodge key while down and DT won't hit you. Sad but true.

View PostEatThisShoe, on 27 November 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

If the combo doesn't work stop using it. You can land Phoenix or Fire Grab even without any CC and they both hit harder than DT, you don't need your target to stand still for anything but DT. You can also use Earthquake -> Phoenix, or Earthquake -> Drake's Breath for 1 tick -> Fire Grab both of which can apply Grounded bonus if you choose to take it. Gale on the focus can substitute Earthquake. Updraft -> Phoenix is close but I'm pretty sure you can land 2/3 of the hits before they can move. The desire to land the "full combo" is just going to make you waste spells that you could land if you cast them normally. If you want to land Dragon's Tooth use Signet of Earth or Deep Freeze on the frost bow, either lasts long enough for DT, Phoenix and Fire Grab all together.

I don't know what you guys expect when comparing ele to thief. Ele has AoE burst, and they can still land single spells for 6-10k and add instant damage effects on top. If you don't like a glass cannon ele fine, don't run it, I prefer air/water/arcane Valkyrie's builds myself, but don't claim our damage is bad because you wont run a build with as much power and as many +% damage traits as the thief you are comparing it to. Even if you run a berserker's amulet you can still expect a 30 water 30 arcane build do do a lot less damage than 30 fire 30 air, and that's what you should expect. I never said thief burst was bad, or even balanced, I said ele damage is comparable if you actually compare builds with the same amount of damage traits.

No you cannot land phoenix and DT against competent players.

#33 Schwarzseher

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:22 PM

Is it just me or whenever I go to the Ele forum on ANY site this guy is always raging all the time?(Just noticed: Elona Reach^^ yeah us germans we love to "discuss" stuff...Drakkar Lake here^^)
But tbh I am not fine with Elementalist currently. I have one 80, played her quiet excessively and after the EA nerf I could not find a satisfying build so I dropped the Ele until it gets buffed fixed.
But thinking that the Ele will get a nerf to Firegrab...I do not think so. It is hard to land, competent players will ALWAYS dodge it unless swarmed and then they're dead anyways. Why the rage? IF it gets nerfed we'll talk again. NO ONE plays glass cannon in tPvP and if they do they're doomed from the start anyways. This combo is possible in normal hotjoin...but that's about it.

Also DT+Phoenix combo is doable...actually easier than landing Firegrab nowadays....sadly(Had MANY missing Grabs even after the so called buff 2 patches ago..).

#34 Featherman

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:30 PM

View PostDarkMortyr, on 26 November 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

I must say that this kind of build is really easy to counter in 1v1 situations. And its also hard to 1v1 against other GC classes. The strongest part on this build is, that you can do massive dmg in larger fights. You can do like 25k+ AoE dmg in few seconds "quite easily".
But on the other hand focus is your the biggest enemy. You need somebody in your team who will open the fight and mostly some CC as well. Its like - appear in the fight, rotate your combo, leave the fight and then after few seconds join again (if they are still alive). Its not that easy as it sounds, but it works.

That's if fire grab lands. And it often won't. You're realistically looking at maybe 4-8k aoe damage before you need to blink out and be useless. You can do that much sustained damage with a bulky build and not be useless for most of the fight.

#35 Miklo

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:21 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 27 November 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

This. Also you don't even have to use a stunbreaker. Updraft knockdown is too short to guarantee DT landing. Just spam your dodge key while down and DT won't hit you. Sad but true.



And it's bugged too now. No blast finisher :(

#36 Lalnuir

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:46 PM

View PostDirame, on 26 November 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

Take a look at the nerf and you'll see they didn't really nerf anything, they just rebalanced things. And it's a bit ironic that you say BS thieves are still out of control when the damage has been nerfed by 33% meaning it's only really effective when the target is at half health.

CnD doing 33% less damage is not the same as thieves doing 33% less damage.

Before the patch i would hit like 4k steal 4k CnD and 8k back stab on someone with a decent amount of toughness.
Now I hit 4k steal 2.7k CnD and 8k back stab meaning 14.7k total damage instead of 16k. It's closer to a 10% damage loss.

#37 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:26 PM

Thieves of all people are already crying like hell about this video on the official forums...

#38 Rrafaz

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:55 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 27 November 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

This. Also you don't even have to use a stunbreaker. Updraft knockdown is too short to guarantee DT landing. Just spam your dodge key while down and DT won't hit you. Sad but true.



No you cannot land phoenix and DT against competent players.

Sadly I've noticed the same on my ele. DT needs to drop faster. It only really does about 3-4k damage, which is pretty much a first AA for a thief.

#39 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:35 AM

WTF is this guy's -cosmic teapots- problem? He's posting that video in every single class forum and those noobs scream bloody murder for ele nerfs.

https://forum-en.gui...st-combo-UPDATE
https://forum-en.gui...erpowered-class
https://forum-en.gui...our-forum-again

He even posts a video where he does his little combo against an afk warrior that has frenzy active and then tells those frakking believers that that's normal gameplay from him and happens all the time.

This has to stop.

It's clear that the guy doesn't even play ele (he uses the default pvp outfit) so he's just another butthurt noob trying to get us nerfed even further. Goddamn imbecile.

Edited by AetherMcLoud, 28 November 2012 - 10:23 AM.


#40 Featherman

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:07 PM

Hmmm...Seeing as how history has a habit of repeating itself, A.Net might actually leave this "insta-gib" combo alone and nerf everything else.

#41 DeXyre

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:07 PM

View PostFeatherman, on 28 November 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

Hmmm...Seeing as how history has a habit of repeating itself, A.Net might actually leave this "insta-gib" combo alone and nerf everything else.
Yes, because that's what happened to the last couple of insta-gib combo's elementalist had vs afk players O_o

#42 Featherman

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:55 PM

I was talking about the baffling nerfs to thieves.

#43 Asomal

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:01 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 28 November 2012 - 05:35 AM, said:

WTF is this guy's -cosmic teapots- problem? He's posting that video in every single class forum and those noobs scream bloody murder for ele nerfs.

https://forum-en.gui...st-combo-UPDATE
https://forum-en.gui...erpowered-class
https://forum-en.gui...our-forum-again

He even posts a video where he does his little combo against an afk warrior that has frenzy active and then tells those frakking believers that that's normal gameplay from him and happens all the time.

This has to stop.

It's clear that the guy doesn't even play ele (he uses the default pvp outfit) so he's just another butthurt noob trying to get us nerfed even further. Goddamn imbecile.

Get used to it, the same happened to thieves (HS, pistol whip) and warriors (100b).

#44 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:24 PM

View PostAsomal, on 28 November 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

Get used to it, the same happened to thieves (HS, pistol whip) and warriors (100b).

Only that those actually were (and still are) viable glasscannon specs. While that ele video is just some chump showing off against afk opponents. Nobody in their right mind would play such a spec in a tournament. GC thieves and warriors still do because they are viable as a GC.

#45 Celestial Teapot

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:14 AM

Stop taking these vids so seriously. I highly doubt they'll have any impact on future patches.

Also how is the warrior afk? He ran out to cap the point and waited for me to do the standard ele rotation. When I caught him off guard he popped balanced stance, frenzy, and 100b. Pretty impressive for someone who's afk. Also here's another video I hope you'll enjoy.

EDIT: Removed video as all the threads on the official forum I made them for are dead.

Edited by Celestial Teapot, 02 December 2012 - 11:41 PM.


#46 Serim

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 05:29 AM

View PostCelestial Teapot, on 29 November 2012 - 04:14 AM, said:

Stop taking these vids so seriously. I highly doubt they'll have any impact on future patches.

Also how is the warrior afk? He ran out to cap the point and waited for me to do the standard ele rotation. When I caught him off guard he popped balanced stance, frenzy, and 100b. Pretty impressive for someone who's afk. Also here's another video I hope you'll enjoy.


\

I would like to know if you were able to completely kill that warrior and either run away from the other person there or win a fight against them?

#47 Celestial Teapot

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 06:42 AM

The video I just posted we me using a joke build. What happened was that the thief I just killed was rallied from my teammate dying. I kill him again and the other thief, but then an elementalist came along and got me.

The frenzied warrior was from a different vid where I was using my standard hotjoin glass cannon build.

EDIT: Removed video as all the threads on the official forum I made them for are dead.

Here's another vid using my normal build. 11594 fire grab crit without bolt to the heart.

EDIT: Removed video as all the threads on the official forum I made them for are dead.

Some people are getting way to upset over nothing. I'm not the first person to use a few utilities to land some burst.

Edited by Celestial Teapot, 02 December 2012 - 11:41 PM.


#48 Lazarast

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 08:45 AM

Well provably they'll buff fire grab by lowering damage and COLDOWN.

Cheers.

#49 Serim

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:58 PM

View PostLazarast, on 29 November 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

Well provably they'll buff fire grab by lowering damage and COLDOWN.

Cheers.

Or making it an insta cast with lower damage.

And Celestial, it would probably help if you posted match long vids, people wouldnt get as qq over it if they see how squishy you are after that burst.

#50 Exci

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 08:52 PM

View PostLazarast, on 29 November 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

Well provably they'll buff fire grab by lowering damage and COLDOWN.

Cheers.
For starters I wonder when they'll make it reliably landable on a strafing target.
You point to where your target is at? Nope. miss.
You point to where your target will soon be, to account for possible latency? Nope x2.

#51 blindude

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:54 PM

View PostExci, on 29 November 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

For starters I wonder when they'll make it reliably landable on a strafing target.
You point to where your target is at? Nope. miss.
You point to where your target will soon be, to account for possible latency? Nope x2.
lol true.For me i believe i have landed it more on people that i havent targeted than those who are tabbed..dont know why but even i fi stay still and let the game do the facing it still will miss :(

#52 Exci

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 03:18 PM

View Postblindude, on 29 November 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

lol true.For me i believe i have landed it more on people that i havent targeted than those who are tabbed..dont know why but even i fi stay still and let the game do the facing it still will miss :(
Honestly I'm not sure if there is some sort of trick to reliably hit it on a strafing scenario. I don't play that much so I just might have not discovered it. If there is, please share.

#53 Reisa

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 04:34 PM

View PostExci, on 29 November 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

For starters I wonder when they'll make it reliably landable on a strafing target.
You point to where your target is at? Nope. miss.
You point to where your target will soon be, to account for possible latency? Nope x2.

If it's any consolation, if they do try to 'buff' firegrab (or any skill), we'll find out that it isn't really a buff but a roundabout nerf, since the increase in effectiveness will either be bugged in part or in full.

But don't worry, the nerfs will work correctly 100% of the time.

#54 The_Tree_Branch

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 05:31 PM

View PostDatmag Nie, on 26 November 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

Try mist form and off-hand focus = 7s invunarable.
Arcane shield 3 blocks...

Utility enough to counter other GC classes and enough dps to kill "tanks"
But then again you're always complaining about Ele's and that they need a buff.

So, all the skills an ele can take that tank damage are on a long ass cooldown. Meanwhile, they still have the lowest HP and armor class in the game.

Just because a glass cannon elementalist can hit some big numbers in certain (very limited) situations does not make them viable.

#55 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 05:51 PM

View PostThe_Tree_Branch, on 30 November 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:


So, all the skills an ele can take that tank damage are on a long ass cooldown.

Also you give up a capture point by using them.

#56 Varun

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 10:42 PM

Done plenty of that type of burst with a S/D DPS spec.
Why would it need to be nerfed, it requires more setup than pretty much any other other burst combo in the GAME and is therefore also countered more easily than almost any other setup.

If this is any reason to complain, I'm seriously wondering what all those thiefs who were saying "oh but I play a glass cannon spec and you can kill me easily, even though I'm in stealth 80% of the time, so it's balanced" are on about. Because our glass cannon can't stealth for sure.

Edited by Varun, 02 December 2012 - 10:43 PM.


#57 kilger

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 07:36 PM

Offhand dagger has good offhand dps on long cooldowns, that what its there for.  Otherwise, why bother???

#58 Celestial Teapot

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 06:29 AM

2 qq threads on the official ele forums.

Quote

wondering what a certin skill was i was in pvp and thier was a ele that jumped in the air then hit me......on my bunker guardian i got hit for almost 15K and on my mesmer it killed all my illusion and me in 1 hit and then when i tried to fight the guy i was barely putting any damage on him im not flaming or saying thier is something wrong im just wondering was build and skill this could be thnak you

Quote

lets recap.... his rush had incredible range over 2000+  i definetly wasnt expecting him to close that gap so quickly thats for sure.   and he had some kind of cc/knockdown.
and his burst dmg was so massive i was dead within 2-3 seconds flat, with no time to react or regain any ground/heal.

And so it begins, the great nerfstorm of our time.

#59 Lordkrall

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:35 PM

As already stated: They don't nerf stuff because of QQ, they nerf stuff if they deem it necessary.

#60 Nabuko Darayon

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:39 PM

If you'd ask me I'd Staff Eles need a buff, ether in auto-casting time on long distances or in a bit more damage.
As for the rest I've made a peace with it.




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