Jump to content

  • Curse Sites
Help
* * * * - 3 votes

Nov 15th: Reversed principles, Incompetence, or Both?


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
16 replies to this topic

#1 Lheimroo

Lheimroo

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 40 posts

Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:55 PM

We all know the kafuffle about gear grind, ascended gear, etc.

We know what's been said, we know what we've seen in game.

We know it's just the start.

So, my question is this:

Does the ascended gear tier and agony content gating adhere to the principles on which Areanet marketed this game?

Those principles brought anticipation to near Old Republic levels because there was an honest market out there of people tired of gear-grinder MMOs.. and seemingly Areanet has done an about-face on those ideas, and I've seen a lot of people claiming it's so egregious that it amounts to a bait-and-switch.

So what would it take for Areanet to, as it said in it's PR, 'not intend a gear treadmill'? What would it take for that to be the literal truth?

My answer.. based on the implementation of the fractals dungeon that I observed in game is that the patch - or at the very least the mechanics surrounding the acquisition of ascended gear - for Arenanet's intentions to be honest, must have been implemented in a panic at a level of incompetence that is staggering.

Think about that - if you want to adhere to your principles you don't pull such a fast 180 that people are left with whiplash and shock. If you don't want to adhere to your principles, you don't implement a grind that is so hideous it immediately disheartens an entire segment of your casual playerbase.

WoW does gear-grind and new gear tiers in a comparatively light-hearted, simple, easy-going fashion. In fact, no game I've yet played has implemented a new gear tier with such awful mechanics for acquiring the pieces.

The dungeon's gating mechanic is designed so poorly that people who couldn't play on the Lost Shores weekend found themselves already starting to be left behind by the time they got to the game. The costs and RNG of the new items are so shocking that many people are saying they are simply going to wait until Arenanet lowers the cost, or just plain out creating thread after thread of justified criticism, or they're just completely opting out. There's only one method to attain the gear, and only a few slots - all of it points to this stuff being added in a total panic, without proper forethought, testing, or listening to  tester feedback.

Why? C'mon. Surely they must have known the locusts would move on after three months. Surely they must've known the pattern for every single MMO launch since Warcraft. Why this as their response to a totally predictable event?

Edited by Lheimroo, 26 November 2012 - 02:02 PM.


#2 Diggy

Diggy

    Pale Tree Seedling

  • New Members
  • 7 posts

Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:09 PM

I completely agree with what you have written in your post.
Unless a change is comming soon I forsee this game dying fast. The main advantage it has now is there is no subscription fee. So people will always pop in to see what has changed. Just taking a look at the class balance... so many traits/skills are bugged since beta. They have yet to get fixed. Buffing/Nerfing... is strange when stuff isn't working as advertised.

Fotm... strange mechanics when it comes to d/c or ppl leaving. Also standing in LA finding a group is not fun. This will only get worse.
The new zone they introduced? what exactly is there now that the main event is gone? Why did they waste resources on that is mindblowing..... how about bug fixes.

As you already pointed out in your post ascended gear. Another grind with a big RNG flavor when it comes to the rings.
Anet saying legendary s will get upgraded when ascended weaps come... another big arrow for a grind.

Now don't get me wrong grinds are sometimes a nessesary evil. But right now their saying A and doing B.
And promoting their game as E-sport? lol just lol Bug fixes anet .. bug fixes... then balance accordingly

#3 raspberry jam

raspberry jam

    Vigil Crusader

  • Members
  • 4817 posts

Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:02 PM

IMO they knew this was coming. They also knew how to deal with it in a way that they thought would work. GW2 is designed around reward driven gameplay and only that; there is near zero meaning in anything you do in the game except to get some reward that mostly will help you get other rewards.

The question of whether or not the patch follows the stated principles that they marketed the game on has been asked before... Except for a small amount of "very dedicated fans", mostly everyone agrees on that they broke their promises, or at least violated the principles that they said they were following. Opinions part when it comes to things like, were the things said in the manifesto actual promises, did they have to be modified, should we really take marketing spiel seriously...

I think that a more interesting question is: did ANet actually, from the start, design the game according to what they told us in the marketing? Or did they build something that looked like what they promised, but which could only really be extended in the way that they actually did on Nov 15? I think so, actually, because I see no other way that they could have gone forward.

#4 Redhawk2007

Redhawk2007

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 156 posts

Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:05 PM

I agree with you this has been a bad move on their part . "Bait and switch" is putting it mildly, as they consistently say one thing while doing another. They admit drops rates are "abysmal" then nerf them even further. Apparently abysmal isn't bad enough. The grind they have introduced into the game is outrageous. 1000 karka shells for a piece of jewelry? You'd have to kill 4,000 to 5,000 karka to get that and they don't drop much of anything else that makes them worth farming.

This game is becoming a Korean cash shop grinder from Hell. With the exception of karma jugs I can't think of a single thing they have done to improve the gaming experience for players and reduce the typical MMO crap that this game was supposed to be an antidote for, but instead is a major carrier of the disease.

#5 Gilles VI

Gilles VI

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 3314 posts
  • Location:Belgium
  • Profession:Guardian
  • Guild Tag:[ICE]
  • Server:Far Shiverpeaks

Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:05 PM

View PostLheimroo, on 26 November 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

The dungeon's gating mechanic is designed so poorly that people who couldn't play on the Lost Shores weekend found themselves already starting to be left behind by the time they got to the game.

Except you can play every fractal at lvl1?
And there is no content you can't play untill a certain point?

#6 SirGamesalot

SirGamesalot

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 507 posts
  • Location:Norway
  • Guild Tag:[NoX]
  • Server:Piken Square

Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:07 PM

agree 100%

I am really hoping that arenanet will see that they made a mistake and change the way these items are acquired (or remove them completely)

#7 TGIFrisbie

TGIFrisbie

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 620 posts

Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:12 PM

The fallacy of your OP is that you seem to think this was a sudden about face.  I contend this was worked on and planned months ahead of the implementation, not mere weeks.

The amount of gear, maps, mobs, scaling, design, artwork, voice overs, on and on and on.  This was no mere knee-jerk reaction, this was planned.

That, my friend, is TRUE bait and switch.  On release they fully knew where they were headed, in a direction they said would not be in this game.

Edited by TGIFrisbie, 26 November 2012 - 03:12 PM.


#8 BrettM

BrettM

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1434 posts
  • Guild Tag:[FPI]
  • Server:Isle of Janthir

Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:13 PM

@Diggy: I have no doubt that the new island will develop over time just as other zones have developed with the addition of new events, puzzles, and mini dungeons. I don't see the current situation there as a concern.

For the gear grind, I think we need to wait and see where it goes. Right now it doesn't give any significant advantage in PvE, and is only really necessary for deeper levels of FotM. If it stays that way, I don't see a huge problem. If infusion starts to become necessary for new content outside the dungeon, or if new infusions give a notable advantage in PvE or WvW, then it may become a problem unless crafters are offered a way to create gear with infusion slots and maybe create some of the infusions as well.

While they've taken the first step towards a gear or infusion grind, it is still possible that it is also the first step on another path that is more acceptable. We just can't say for certain at this point, though there is certainly cause for us to be wary of where the game could be headed.

#9 Linfang

Linfang

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2362 posts
  • Location:Ohio
  • Guild Tag:[GSCH]
  • Server:Sanctum of Rall

Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:14 PM

Anet is making the game changes, while Nexon/NCsoft holds the gun to their head.

#10 Evans

Evans

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 424 posts
  • Location:Belgium

Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:39 PM

Hasn't the dead horse been beaten enough?
It's been 11 days, for heaven's sake. That's FOREVER in cyberland. The virtual world hasn't ceased existing yet so maybe it's time to move on and start our preparations for the next outrage.

#11 ScoutMATH

ScoutMATH

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 257 posts
  • Location:New York City
  • Guild Tag:[MATH]
  • Server:Kaineng

Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:01 PM

A.NET = puppets, Nexon/NCsoft = puppet masters.

#12 thelast

thelast

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 30 posts

Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:08 PM

View PostBrettM, on 26 November 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:

For the gear grind, I think we need to wait and see where it goes. Right now it doesn't give any significant advantage in PvE, and is only really necessary for deeper levels of FotM. If it stays that way, I don't see a huge problem.

Wait and see is nice on words, reality is different. If we wait for something to be first implemented and then judge it, its too late.
I am yet to see a game company to remove something after they have implemented it in to the game. We need to fight upfront, to show what we like and dislike, not to wait until its too late.
Everything bad in life is insignificant at first, but if you don't squish it fast it can kill you later. Its same in the current situation with GW2, we should bitch and whine to hell and show our attitude.
Anet are not my friends or family, they are business like many said here on forums, I don't care for their feelings. They should know the truth, they took my money and now I have full right to be angry of their lies and actions.

It was the same situation in LOTRO when Turbine gave us the so called "legendary" items. Many players, me included, were unhappy and tried to voice their concerns. Unfortunately the fanbois jumped in with the same talk, "wait and see". Well we waited and we saw the biggest grind in my life (sorry I don't play asian MMOs so bare with me). Instead of legendary, those items became legendary PoS, we had to grind constantly and throw it away with every new level cap.

Guild Wars 2 still has a chance to stay on top, but it's not with adding new tier of items whenever they see people leave their game. Such actions wont make players come back. It's not a pay to play game, they will be back for 1 month or couple of weeks and then go for another grindy MMO. With constantly throwing carrots infront of us to reach, Anet is going to lose their real fans, people who bought the game based on GW1 and promises given before launch.

#13 beadnbutter32

beadnbutter32

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 618 posts
  • Location:Highway 61 Central US
  • Server:Henge of Denravi

Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:41 PM

If you look at the scope and depth of the grind/reward/cash shop it is breath-taking just how bad a deal it is for casual players.  Precursors for legendaries are running for hundreds of gold which equals, hundreds real dollars.  This is comparable to other cash shop Asian grinders like Perfect World Inc. which the whole legendary gear was copied.
Where it goes astronomical is the time/cost for all the other materials required, plus a random/gambling factor no other Asian grinder has yet to be so bold with in gear acquisition.

Couple that with some of the lowest farming rates in the industry and you have your reason for the over the top marketing/introduction of GW2.  They knew it what they were going to try, so they sold it as the opposite, and will continue to claim it is not what it is.
The other shoe to soon drop, will be going completely free to play.  The free to play weekend was just a dry run for that, and we all know how free to play games subsist.

They never came close to challenging WOW, and as far as we know, have  yet to even equal GW1 sales.  The wait and see players are simply not biting and have never bought the game.  The wise ones waited a couple of months, and bingo, the true nature comes out, hence you are not seeing strong sales now.  

From here on out they will simply try to maximize their investment with cosmetic new content that lays the pretext for more grindy cash shop items.  

I will continue to play the heck out of PVE, an ignore the FOTM dungeons and gear grind.
I value my time too much to spend an hour spamming Lions Gate chat for the off chance of getting a team.  If I can't earn it in game as a casual under 15 hours a week player, it is not on my radar. I will continue to create and level alts until some alternative comes around.  I might lay out some cash for another character slot in the meantime, and that should be enough for them to pay their bills.

Asian cash shop grinders are not all bad.

You just have to recognize what is fun and what is needless grind, so you just do what is fun.

#14 Runkleford

Runkleford

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 953 posts

Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:30 PM

ANET has reversed principles. No matter how much people want to spin it, ANET broke the claim that there will be no gear progression. You can't say that there will be no gear progression and then release new and more powerful gear after release. You can make the argument that it will be the last tier and thus the progression is short but you can't make the argument that the last update did not introduce gear progression since the fact is that in order to do the new content, you MUST eventually replace your exotic gear.

#15 Corvindi

Corvindi

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1290 posts
  • Server:Jade Quarry

Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:03 PM

The nice thing about a no sub game is, I can read their pretty new words, nod, and sit on wallet until I'm convinced they mean what they say.

Personally, I don't mind some vertical progression.  As long as the grind is reasonable, doesn't force me into the cash shop, and is available through various methods of play.

Right now, this Ascended grind is unreasonable, pushes people to spend cash on gold to buy mats to shorten it, and is only available to dungeon runners.

When those things change, I'll be happy to spend money again.  Until they do, I'll be playing alts when I feel like it.  Maybe get some more characters to 80 and then save up some mats and gold and karma in case they actually mean what they say.

#16 Jairyn

Jairyn

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1141 posts
  • Guild Tag:[BAMF]
  • Server:Dragonbrand

Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:11 PM

View PostCorvindi, on 26 November 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

Personally, I don't mind some vertical progression.  As long as the grind is reasonable, doesn't force me into the cash shop, and is available through various methods of play.
This is the camp I fall into, as well. It's not ideal, we can mince words forever arguing whether or not it explicitly conforms to each ANet statement. I can't actually recall any quotes about flat progression, now that they're using that as the sticking point, best I can find is "grinding dungeons shouldn't give you better stats," which this system seemingly will agree with, once corrected. Honestly, this is probably the best case scenario. The genie was already out of the bottle, it's not like they could up and remove it from the game.

I appreciate that they concede adding ascended post release, and adding it before they worked out systems to make it available through all content, were mistakes to be rectified now and avoided in the future. I also appreciate that their intent is allegedly to keep vertical progression at a trickle rather than deluge, but that is, of course, another subjective line to walk.

Now that my nerdrage has drained away and I seem left to keep playing GW2 or go back to WoW. I think I'll still try kicking it here, for a while. My purse strings are going to be more tightly held from now on, though.

#17 Leyana

Leyana

    Breezing through life

  • Moderators
  • 4602 posts

Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:31 PM

We already have more than enough threads on Ascended gear and the November 15th patch. If you wish to discuss Ascended gear, just use one of the existing threads instead of making a new one.

Thanks




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users