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AMA Post-Mortem Discussion, What You Got Out of It


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#121 Momochi7

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:37 PM

View PostDaesu, on 27 November 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

I have never said that they can't change their manifesto.  It is their game and they have the right to change it in anyway they please.  But that doesn't necessarily mean we have to like every single potential changes they do to the game.  If they should be allowed to change their minds, then why can't we, if we don't like the upcoming direction that the game is heading?  Yes it is only rings and back pieces right now, but ArenaNet has said that there will be more ascended items along WITH VERTICAL PROGRESSION.

I don't want to be running a perpetual gear treadmill and that is what it sounds like they intend to do.  It is a shame because I like this game and it has a lot of potential but I dont like the direction that it is heading.

I see where your going and i whole heartily agree with your statements, i myself am just getting a little butthurt, mainly because i dont want people to leave, i enjoy just "being" in the world and if ppl arnt there to give it some ..lets say life, its gonna get dull. The vertical progression, ive heard it somewhere and if that is their statment then daaiimmm, just hope they dont go all WoW on us, creating a new gearscore.. i cant ekspress how many times ive been turned down for not having a high enough gearscore. With that said i feel some peoples frustration, and i apologize if my post above seemed a ..aggressive. The heading does seem rather dark.. anyway, ill wait it out anyway.. need dat tengu race :l

#122 Bloodtau

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:44 PM

New game then guys?
Arenanet seem to be making things worse every patch instead of better. They don't listen to their players and only care about adding new shinies to the gems tore for kids with their parents wallet to blow cash on.

#123 Daesu

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:47 PM

View PostMomochi7, on 27 November 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

I see where your going and i whole heartily agree with your statements, i myself am just getting a little butthurt, mainly because i dont want people to leave, i enjoy just "being" in the world and if ppl arnt there to give it some ..lets say life, its gonna get dull. The vertical progression, ive heard it somewhere and if that is their statment then daaiimmm, just hope they dont go all WoW on us, creating a new gearscore.. i cant ekspress how many times ive been turned down for not having a high enough gearscore. With that said i feel some peoples frustration, and i apologize if my post above seemed a ..aggressive. The heading does seem rather dark.. anyway, ill wait it out anyway.. need dat tengu race :l

For what it is worth, it is going to be painful to leave.  At the back of my mind, I am still hopeful that I have misunderstood them so I am sticking around the forums for the latest news.  Maybe it is a lost cause, I don't know...

Edited by Daesu, 27 November 2012 - 08:48 PM.


#124 KrakenAZ

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:53 PM

The amount of spin in the AMA has left me dizzy.  This post from the previously linked thread on the official forums sums up my feelings on the situation exactly:



Quote

Cancer.9065:



we have no place else to go

This.
I always thought it was “silly” to be a fan of a company, after all the ultimate goal of a business is making money (and this is not a bad a thing). But Anet’s manifesto made me a believer, sadly (thankfully?) it was a short live fandom. I’ll still play just like I still play other games that I own. I’m just not a “fan” anymore.

Like him, I'll continue playing for the time being, but I'm certainly no longer a fan of the company.

#125 Disdanes

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:59 PM

View PostCorvindi, on 27 November 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

I have as much right to ask for my money back as someone who bought the game on Nov 14, based on the fact that I would never have bought it knowing I would have to grind dungeons for the best gear.  This is why I sympathize with those asking for refunds who never wanted ANY gear progression at level cap.

Since they say there will be other ways to get this gear in the future and because I have enjoyed alt leveling, I am personally willing to not ask for a refund but instead wait and see, otherwise I would be demanding a refund as well.

Asking for a refund after you've played a game is like asking for a refund after you ate a cheeseburger at McDonalds and didn't like it.

#126 Momochi7

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:00 PM

View PostDaesu, on 27 November 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

For what it is worth, it is going to be painful to leave.  At the back of my mind, I am still hopeful that I have misunderstood them so I am sticking around the forums for the latest news.  Maybe it is a lost cause, I don't know...

Stick around for winterday, forget the vertical progression coming in the future and just enjoy simple, enjoyable(hopefully) events and gatherings of people. Im excited for it, and im a sucker for exclusive rewards such as the mad kings diary.. :o i need them. Yeh, up to you but you could log in for the holiday event, i thought the halloween event was among my best gw2 moments, its so relaxing and engrossing. But im not forcing anywone, just sayin

#127 Ualtar

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:01 PM

View PostMillimidget, on 27 November 2012 - 01:51 AM, said:

Except they said they'll be increasing stats within tiers (or a tier), so while we may not see a new distinct tier, we'll see sub-tiers within the currently existing tiers.

Which makes it a final tier in name only.

So you want the same gear once the level cap is raised?  What about rares for level 80s, and then level 90s.

#128 MazingerZ

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:02 PM

View PostDisdanes, on 27 November 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

Asking for a refund after you've played a game is like asking for a refund after you ate a cheeseburger at McDonalds and didn't like it.

Except that while you were chewing the burger, McD's didn't teleport rat feces into the ground beef.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#129 Illein

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:03 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 27 November 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

Sounds like you have issues with Hilary.  Were you expecting a home run that night?

OT:It all hinted in that direction. Now 30 years later she might run for president in 4 years. Imagine my surprise!

#130 paradiselight

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:04 PM

View PostDisdanes, on 27 November 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

Asking for a refund after you've played a game is like asking for a refund after you ate a cheeseburger at McDonalds and didn't like it.
It's more like buying a veggie burger, ate it, and then told you have been served a cheeseburger. Perfectly justified for refund.

#131 Daesu

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:08 PM

View PostMomochi7, on 27 November 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

-snip-

I'll think about it, thanks! :)

#132 Corvindi

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:21 PM

View PostDisdanes, on 27 November 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

Asking for a refund after you've played a game is like asking for a refund after you ate a cheeseburger at McDonalds and didn't like it.

More like asking for a refund at the all you can eat buffet because they specifically promised strawberry shortcake on the dessert bar, then removed it before you got to have a slice (or maybe a second helping) and replaced it with cheesecake instead.

We can argue all day whether the customer who showed up for the shortcake has a right to a refund if they ate dinner before dessert.  I would say at least a partial refund should be in order, especially if the dessert bar was closed to anyone who didn't eat dinner first (just as level 80 content is closed to anyone who doesn't first level to 80).

#133 Runkleford

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:55 PM

This is why I hate analogies in arguments. Everyone can come up with one to fit their argument and then the counterarguments have their own analogies. It never serves to convince anyone.

#134 BrotatoSoup

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:57 PM

I'm cautiously optimistic about the future of this game. Chris Whiteside promised a lot of things in the AMA. I suppose it will be rather naive to wish for the team to stick to their promises, considering how they managed to twist the manifesto to rationalize their actions. But still - I'm hoping for better things to come.

I've made my peace with the direction GW2 is going. I can see myself adapting as long as they make progression fun and rewarding. Admittedly, I'm not very fond with the current state of the game but here's hoping ANet will fix that.

#135 Millimidget

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:17 PM

View PostVar, on 27 November 2012 - 01:54 AM, said:

I gathered that those increases were meant to be from the slots getting ever better upgrades.
Looks like it'll be from increases in the level cap.

View PostUaltar, on 27 November 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

So you want the same gear once the level cap is raised?  What about rares for level 80s, and then level 90s.
If they plan on raising the level cap, then I don't see how vertical progression is attractive for anyone, least of all at the current insane grinds required.

Edited by Millimidget, 27 November 2012 - 10:20 PM.


#136 Millimidget

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:23 PM

View PostBryant Again, on 27 November 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

If I wanted that, I would get the newest WoW expansion.
Seems to me to be the conclusion of the argument. They're implementing vertical progression to attract people who are interested in it, but there's an obviously superior product offering that as well. More than likely, anyone interested in vertical progression will look at the two games and choose WoW because it does vertical progression better.

#137 Corvindi

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:25 PM

View PostRunkleford, on 27 November 2012 - 09:55 PM, said:

This is why I hate analogies in arguments. Everyone can come up with one to fit their argument and then the counterarguments have their own analogies. It never serves to convince anyone.

Well that and now I want cheesecake....

#138 FoxBat

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:40 PM

View PostMillimidget, on 27 November 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

More than likely, anyone interested in vertical progression will look at the two games and choose WoW because it does vertical progression better.

Except they don't want to pay monthly so they'll pick GW2 or a F2P title. Except only a handful of F2P titles are even as polished as GW2.

Face it, this has always been Anet's real audience, even in GW1. Not fans who gave a damn about "skill > time." There's a reason titles and consumables started giving stat buffs.

Edited by FoxBat, 27 November 2012 - 10:41 PM.


#139 Bryant Again

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:53 PM

View PostMillimidget, on 27 November 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

Seems to me to be the conclusion of the argument. They're implementing vertical progression to attract people who are interested in it, but there's an obviously superior product offering that as well. More than likely, anyone interested in vertical progression will look at the two games and choose WoW because it does vertical progression better.

It's also a bit more direct, perhaps even honest, in its 'grind'.

With WoW you can point at plenty of things that take too long than they should, and you know they'll be there, it's just how subscription games work. With GW2, they developers could say "well if it feels too grindy...', then point at the cash shop.

Probably a bit too wicked, though. I thought the gem store was a decent thing already and used it p-lenty, just wish you could buy a few more things directly.

Edited by Bryant Again, 27 November 2012 - 10:54 PM.


#140 MazingerZ

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:53 PM

View PostFoxBat, on 27 November 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

Except they don't want to pay monthly so they'll pick GW2 or a F2P title. Except only a handful of F2P titles are even as polished as GW2.

Face it, this has always been Anet's real audience, even in GW1. Not fans who gave a damn about "skill > time." There's a reason titles and consumables started giving stat buffs.

Except that those people are pretty good with numbers and two things will happen:

The grind is so prohibitive and encourages buying gems for either gold or resources that circumvent issues (re: repair canisters for high level Fractals) with the grind.  Eventually, these min/maxers will realize that GW2 actually costs them more than a subscription with a better grind in the WoW model with a better gain in reward...

OR

They will find a way to circumvent the cost of paying in gems to grind it out, at which point it invalidates ArenaNet's revenue model and ArenaNet will put in other methods to further encourage the cash->gold shortcut ... then see the first.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#141 LithiumPicnic

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:57 PM

To all those threatening to quit:

Can I has your stuff?

PM me, and I'll lessen your burden :P

Anyway,
I seriously fail to see the reason behind all the QQ after this AMA

We learned that:
1) They admitted they made a mistake
  a ) By not introducing ascended gear on launch
  b ) Only introducing said gear in FotM - They are addressing it, and we'll soon be able to get the gear of the antichrst everywhere
2) There won't be any new tiers in the forseeable future
3) They will address the fragmentation caused by FotM
4) They will address the mats/tokens required for ascended gear - and by that will be addressing the grind
5)...

Looking at those 4 points, in a logical way, I think it is safe to say that most of your fears are either unfounded or way out of proportion. Somebody else mentioned that the QQrs use the manifesto like its the holy bible, and I couldn't agree more. Life is not static, and the same rules will apply to an MMO to some degree. Those disnosaurs unwilling to adapt, will be left behind, just like errr dinosaurs.

After they make ascended gear available in all forms of gameplay (fotm, dungeons, open world pve, WvWvW etc), there wont be any reason to QQ. You'll still be decked out in mostly exotics, and while working towards your legendary or whatever else you do ingame, you'll receive an ascended drop once in a while. How on earth can that be a bad thing?

./snip. I was going to say more but realised: its no use trying to convince those peeps who look at this in an emotional way.

just remember to pm me, so I can collect your stuff :-P

Edit: added another point - and some typos - there might be more typos, pfffft. ./shrugs

Edited by LithiumPicnic, 27 November 2012 - 11:05 PM.


#142 Minos Knossos

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:59 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 27 November 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

Except that those people are pretty good with numbers and two things will happen:

The grind is so prohibitive and encourages buying gems for either gold or resources that circumvent issues (re: repair canisters for high level Fractals) with the grind.  Eventually, these min/maxers will realize that GW2 actually costs them more than a subscription with a better grind in the WoW model with a better gain in reward...

OR

They will find a way to circumvent the cost of paying in gems to grind it out, at which point it invalidates ArenaNet's revenue model and ArenaNet will put in other methods to further encourage the cash->gold shortcut ... then see the first.

Exactly.

The benefit to setting up GW1 as being primarily instanced was the minimal server costs (really just for towns).

They've designed GW2 as mostly persistent, so there's bound to be higher server costs and they'll have to find ways to recoup those costs.

The people that ArenaNet is now catering to will not likely be very apt to pay $10 for some new skin... They'll be like "Why am I paying for skins?  I don't even want to grind for a skin.  They need to sell me gear with better stats."

#143 StormDragonZ

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:07 PM

Remember, it's what they didn't say that's important.

... because I'm glad there's no bot problem in this game and no one felt it necessary to even bring up such a problem, because such a problem totally doesn't exist and it's all speculation that even such problem would even need to be addressed.

All people whined over was what happened in the last week, instead of what is already GO RED ENGINEing the game already since Day 4.

#144 FoxBat

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:09 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 27 November 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

They will find a way to circumvent the cost of paying in gems to grind it out, at which point it invalidates ArenaNet's revenue model and ArenaNet will put in other methods to further encourage the cash->gold shortcut ... then see the first.

I'm not really sure who decided that arenanet's revenue model was "pay to circumvent grind" when their cash shop is chock full of cosmetic/convenience crap. The more they can attract the attention of any kind of player (those that like grinding stats, those that just show up for events) the more chances they have to sell you things. Last I heard WoW has a pretty happening cash shop too, it's not like stat-chasers automatically hate skins.

Edited by FoxBat, 27 November 2012 - 11:14 PM.


#145 MazingerZ

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:17 PM

View PostFoxBat, on 27 November 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

I'm not really sure who decided that arenanet's revenue model was "pay to circumvent grind" when their cash shop is chock full of cosmetic/convenience crap. The more they can attract the attention of any kind of player (those that like grinding stats, those that just show up for events) the more chances they have to sell you things.

Cash->Gem->Gold conversion?

250 ectos for Ascended Infused?  Yes, they said they think it's prohibitive too, but that doesn't mean a) they didn't make money off people buying ectos off the TP at the sky-rocketing price or
B)
that they didn't realize that when they put it in.  They have an 'economist' that monitors the game economy on staff.  I'm sure they realize that they're basically running their own mini-economy like a tiny island nation and understand the principles of turning their currencies and 'goods' into real money.

And their cosmetic crap is very minimal.  Three pairs of glasses, three armor skins (1 per type), and a variety of silly hats.  All of that was in back in September, IIRC.  The only latest change was the makeover kit.

Everything else is a 'convenience' and that 'convenience' is designed to circumvent grind on one level or another.

Edited by MazingerZ, 27 November 2012 - 11:18 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#146 Minos Knossos

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:22 AM

View PostFoxBat, on 27 November 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

I'm not really sure who decided that arenanet's revenue model was "pay to circumvent grind" when their cash shop is chock full of cosmetic/convenience crap. The more they can attract the attention of any kind of player (those that like grinding stats, those that just show up for events) the more chances they have to sell you things. Last I heard WoW has a pretty happening cash shop too, it's not like stat-chasers automatically hate skins.

WoW's cash-shop is $10 for mini-pets or $25 for mounts.

They don't really sell gear-skins.

Mini-pets and mounts probably work so well because they're a noticeable "HEY! I spent money on this!"

Also, Blizzard doesn't have to depend on "cash-shop" sales as they have a subscription (unlike ArenaNet).

They even tried the whole "buy gold" thing via a tradable mini-pet and decided to scrap the idea, because it just generally sucked.

It's really a shame ArenaNet couldn't learn anything from the game that they're desperately trying to copy.

#147 Minos Knossos

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:30 AM

View PostLithiumPicnic, on 27 November 2012 - 10:57 PM, said:

Anyway,
I seriously fail to see the reason behind all the QQ after this AMA

We learned that:
1) They admitted they made a mistake
  a ) By not introducing ascended gear on launch
  b ) Only introducing said gear in FotM - They are addressing it, and we'll soon be able to get the gear of the antichrst everywhere
2) There won't be any new tiers in the forseeable future
3) They will address the fragmentation caused by FotM
4) They will address the mats/tokens required for ascended gear - and by that will be addressing the
grind
5)...

The reason they didn't introduce Ascended gear at launch is because they HAD NO DESIRE TO.  They were content with Exotic stats being the "max" and thus why Legendaries have the same stats as Exotics.

They introduced Ascended gear to appease people whining that "There's no end-game!"  Now they're trying to ret-con everything by saying "Oh, we should have introduced this in the beginning."  They actually admitted in the AMA that Ascended gear wasn't even considered until after launch.

This is why your point 1a fails.

Point 2: They've already said they'll be dragging out Ascended gear launch piece-by-piece over the next year.
Ideally, they'll have an expansion before the end of 2013... (Most decent MMOs seem to average one per year, and ArenaNet needs some way to pay the bills.)
Thus we'll then be level-grinding (and be sure to expect a GRIND to the max-level, this time) and grinding a whole new set of level 90/100 Ascended gear by this time next year.

#148 Nox_Aeterna

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:50 AM

For now im 100% i wont give Anet one cent outside expansions , im still waiting on their changes to see if i will actually still even give them money for the exp packs.

The way this game is going might not even then be worthy it , or a better game might call me attention. Since now GW2 is in the big boys MMO market with the same crap the others offer , im taking a look on the other MMOs content also.

#149 Frizz

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 02:24 AM

Lol, stat-freaks are freaking out.
MUST. HAVE . MAX. GEAR. TO. ENJOY. GAME.
OTHERWISE. SELF-DESTRUCT.

Frikking robots. You guys are the cause of your own pains. You want max stats otherwise you can't compete and once you got the max stats you won't allow anyone without them to join your party. Only elitist QQ-ers if you ask me.

Content? Meh fights sucks
Story? meh it's below average.
Dungeons. Meh
Jumpling puzzles? HAAATEE
Oh max stat gear easily obtained. Hells yeah.

If that's what an MMO is about I rather have devs not listen to you.

Edited by Frizz, 28 November 2012 - 02:26 AM.


#150 Bloggi

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 02:32 AM

View PostMinos Knossos, on 28 November 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:



They introduced Ascended gear to appease people whining that "There's no end-game!"  Now they're trying to ret-con everything by saying "Oh, we should have introduced this in the beginning."  They actually admitted in the AMA that Ascended gear wasn't even considered until after launch.



Except that if they *did* have ascended gear as a notable tier in equipment, some folk would have done the grind and had those items long before now. Then we're still back in the same situation of having 'no end game' or 'lacking in content'. It is absolutely impossible to keep the most content-hungry people happy for very long. And of course that brings about the whole debate as to what exactly constitutes 'content'. Regardless, I believe that the release of this new tier of gear isn't going to win back the most hardcore players (assuming they actually left because they couldn't grind for any more items), plus its gonna tick off the people amongst its more casual playerbase.

I don't believe they actually won anybody's heart this time around.




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