198 replies to this topic

[Porkchop Sandwiches]

I am a long time mmo gamer (about 12 years now); have suffered through a lot of other gaming companies, and generally like Anet. I played GW1 since launch. I am glad they have admitted that this needs to be looked into, but for the time being I have stopped playing. I am very turned off by grinding at this point in my life. I'll let them sort it out first. It's easy to take a break from a non-subscription game and go back later.

[Serris]

Var, on 27 November 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

grind

you keep using that word. it doesn't means what i think you think it means.

[Galandil]

At this particular moment of the "lifecycle" of the game, I'm not surprised at all by their answers about grinding, treadmill, ascended and all that stuff, it was clearly foreseeable that they would have defended their choice on this matter.

And, for a moment, let's put aside everything about ascension/infusion, and let's look at what *else* they said about the game. Almost nothing. Which was and is my major concern.

The state of sPvP now it's really bad, they bloated a lot with the "e-sport" mantra, while leaving this part of the game on a royal e-mess situation. Even there, the only thing that matters is farming (for ranks, for QP), you get to play randomly against PuG or mothafukka top-tier teams (in the absence of a ladder system), only a little bit of builds are really useful due to the only gametype available, and just, yet, 3 maps in tPvP, with 5 in hot join. The only real new thing which is in some ways "good" it's the Temple map.

And, before even talking about the state of PvP, why not a single * was given about the BUGS? I'm not talking about broken and bugging DEs, storylines, etc. I'm talking about the core of the game: traits and skills. Their road, until now, has been "let's try to balance around bugs". This behaviour is just retarded. You can't fiddle with numbers, skills, traits, before debugging core problems that are present in ALL classes.

This, to me, is the most worrying aspect of all the AMA. We don't have just unbalanced classes, we have unbalanced AND uber-bugged classes. Nothing like this was present even at the start of GW1, there were problems in the balancing (as always are in every game like these), but not in skills doing something different than what stated by their tooltips, or nothing at all, or functioning properly with just half of other skills and unproperly with the other half, etc.

And even the lack of information about skills/traits is, quiet honestly, ridicolous. "Trait X gives you healing when doing Y". How much? For how much time? You get the overall picture, because we all now this.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't see a single question and answer about this aspect, and after 3 months since release, and 5 months since the BWEs, the fact that a lot of bugs are still present in the game, speaks volume about where their resources are allocated. Leaving little hope for the future, sadly.

[Robsy128]

n00854180t, on 27 November 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

This is also from the guy that, literally two comments above, claimed they weren't grindy at all, or required zero/minimal grind.

As you might surmise, I hold very very little stock in what he says. If he thinks 300 ectos, 1350 fractal relics, 24 skill points, and 250 T6 mats is "zero" or "minimal" grind, then what are they going to change it to?

ArenaNet flushed their credibility down the toilet. That was their decision, it's hard to fault me for not taking things they say at face value (especially when they contradict themselves literally minutes apart).

To recap why I find it absurd.

ArenaNet

1) Sold us GW2 by saying things like "We don't make grindy games"
2) Releases a new tier that requires hundreds of hours of grinding only three months after release.
3) Goes into public and claims the massive grind for those items does not exist and is "minimal" or "zero" grind.
4) Only a few minutes after claiming that there is zero/minimal grind for the items, changes their tune and says it's too grindy.

Forgive me if I don't buy into them saying they'll fix the requirements (not that I don't think they'll be changed, I just don't see them being fixed).

Eh?

I'm going to put this here, so that everyone can see it clearly:

READ CAREFULLY.

For example: 'Let's eat, Grandma!' But many people would read: 'let's eat Grandma!' Take your time when reading to get the full picture.

Onto the subject at hand, take a look at the AMA again regarding grind. Chris Whiteside never says that he thinks the current grind is good. In fact, he says they're going to change it.

"I would also like add that we have never said there would be no vertical progression. We do intend to focus on horizontal but we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve."

They're moving forward with the focus on zero grind - i.e. they're going to change the current system.

"We absolutely design everything we do with minimal grind and will continue with this principal moving forward."

Pretty much the same thing again, just worded differently. Now I can easily see people going: 'but look at the first part, Robsy! They say they design everything with the focus on minimal grind, yet they made the current content ridiculously grindy!'
I agree, but remember that he's talking about moving forward 98% of the time. Clearly, something went very wrong when they introduced fractals as the gear grind is quite ridiculous.

Heck, even someone pointed this out to Chris immediately after hearing this:
"Question: With regard to minimal Grind, how is going from 5 Ectos to 50 Ectos for a piece of gear minimal? 5 T6 items to 250 T6 items minimal?

Answer: Good point Nacho. We are currently discussing these particular items and it is fair to say that we don't want to have such big hikes in requirements moving forward.
Chris"

Also, obtaining the items is meant to be fun. They really don't want you to farm the same thing over and over again and then dump everything into the mystic forge for an item.

"Question: Any plans to have high-end items feel more like adventure than grind/trading post? I like to go to zones and do cool things, battle through a DE chain I've never seen before, things like that. Piling up stacks of 250 high-end items and dumping them into the Mystic Forge really isn't my thing.

Answer: Hi Otter,

Yes definitely. That is most certainly our intention, one that has been misrepresented in the itemization of the FotM."

And to conclude, I shall also finish off by saying that they're going to change the grind and requirements for the new tier of gear, etc. It simply didn't make it into this version of the build, and they are currently looking into it. Implementing a perfect system takes time, and clearly it's nowhere near perfect yet. This is simply the start to something greater and more fun.

"I agree that the crafting materials required for Ascended Gear are too much of a grind and we are looking to balance the requirements in a manner that is fair for all involved and we had always intended for there to be multiple ways to get Ascended Gear it just didn't make it the FotM build."

TOO LONG - TOO LAZY TO READ:

LEARN TO READ THE TEXT AND NOT JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS BEFORE FINISHING THE MATERIAL.
That is all.

Edited by Robsy128, 28 November 2012 - 11:08 AM.

[Darkobra]

Disdanes, on 27 November 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

Asking for a refund after you've played a game is like asking for a refund after you ate a cheeseburger at McDonalds and didn't like it.

This one again? You know some restaurants actually do that, right? If you didn't enjoy a part of your meal, they either refund you for the part you didn't enjoy or the whole thing. This is a PR move to get you to come back there with friends to try another meal and give them more money. And it works.

So please, every single one of you that pulls a comparison out of the air, please do some research into it first. It's like shooting an honest man at the back of the head in a theater and running away!

[Glider]

Robsy128, on 28 November 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

They're moving forward with the focus on zero grind - i.e. they're going to change the current system.

As your whole argument seem to be that their intention is to minimalize the grind I'd like to hear your version how does it happen that they release an item that requires insane grind to get.

I really don't think that's just a typo and an extra digit as they're "looking into it" now and may change it (I wonder if it will be zero grind if they cut it in half (sarcasm))

[Ritualist]

Robsy128, on 28 November 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

And to conclude, I shall also finish off by saying that they're going to change the grind and requirements for the new tier of gear, etc. It simply didn't make it into this version of the build, and they are currently looking into it. Implementing a perfect system takes time, and clearly it's nowhere near perfect yet. This is simply the start to something greater and more fun.

The change didn't make it into this build because they have no idea what they are doing and they didn't think it would be problematic. How can the question of the quantity and the quality of the required materials not be the second thing you ask yourself (with the first one clearly being if they should REALLY implement those items)?

[Robsy128]

Glider, on 28 November 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

As your whole argument seem to be that their intention is to minimalize the grind I'd like to hear your version how does it happen that they release an item that requires insane grind to get.

To be honest, I imagine they ran out of time to completely do the system how they wanted to do it. They could easily have been pushed by NCSoft or even Nexon to release the content patch before it was ready. Coming from the gaming industry myself, I know that developers don't have all the time in the world to make the perfect content patches or even perfect games. There are always deadlines and if you miss them or feel like you're going to miss them, you have to make sure that the content you're working on is as good as it can be without ruining the entire game. I imagine that's why the insane grind was added to the recently added items - a placeholder to buy more time so that they can work on a much better system.
Of course, I'm only offering a suggestion. I don't work for Arenanet, so I have no idea what's happening inside their offices as I type this. Just bear in mind that making systems and content takes a lot of time and a lot of work. Often publishers or even managers can be pushy, so you have to make compromises.

Protoss, on 28 November 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

The change didn't make it into this build because they have no idea what they are doing and they didn't think it would be problematic. How can the question of the quantity and the quality of the required materials not be the second thing you ask yourself (with the first one clearly being if they should REALLY implement those items)?

Now you're just assuming that Arenanet have turned into a company that wants to destroy their own game. Of course they know what they're doing. As I explained above, it's not easy to create the perfect systems. It takes time. Often it takes a lot of time to implement patches as big as that one without destroying the game. Publishers and managers always push you, however, and compromises have to be made. They've already explained why they added the items, and they've stated that they should have had it in the game before launch. Hindsight is, after all, a wonderful thing. They've admitted their mistake and have promised to improve upon the current situation.
They must have known the content patch would have been problematic. They've told us they understand the problem and are working on it. What more can they say? What would you say if you were in their shoes?

Edited by Robsy128, 28 November 2012 - 12:44 PM.

[FoxBat]

I don't see how a tier of gear that's supposed to be "inbetween" exotics and legendaries can be anything BUT grindy. If you can get it from a day's play, then there's nothing close to legendary about it.

[Ritualist]

Robsy128, on 28 November 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

Now you're just assuming that Arenanet have turned into a company that wants to destroy their own game. Of course they know what they're doing. As I explained above, it's not easy to create the perfect systems. It takes time. Often it takes a lot of time to implement patches as big as that one without destroying the game. Publishers and managers always push you, however, and compromises have to be made. They've already explained why they added the items, and they've stated that they should have had it in the game before launch. Hindsight is, after all, a wonderful thing. They've admitted their mistake and have promised to improve upon the current situation.
They must have known the content patch would have been problematic. They've told us they understand the problem and are working on it. What more can they say? What would you say if you were in their shoes?

They aren't out to destroy their own game. The same way that they weren't out to destroy GW1.
But the problem is that they don't know what they are doing and as are result they are sometimes taking completely moronic steps. How is ascended gear anything other than a panic reaction to the fact that people aren't playing the game the way they thought we would? And now, as people are pointing out that the gear is too grindy, they are panicking again.
They don't have a vision for their game and it's really starting to show.

[Robsy128]

Protoss, on 28 November 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

They aren't out to destroy their own game. The same way that they weren't out to destroy GW1.
But the problem is that they don't know what they are doing and as are result they are sometimes taking completely moronic steps. How is ascended gear anything other than a panic reaction to the fact that people aren't playing the game the way they thought we would? And now, as people are pointing out that the gear is too grindy, they are panicking again.
They don't have a vision for their game and it's really starting to show.

It's not a panic reaction at all. It has simply been added because they wanted to fill the time gap in between exotic and legendary gear. Ascended gear fills that gap. It's realising a problem with the game design and adjusting it to make it better. Okay, they added a lot of grind in the process, but they realise that problem now and are working on fixing it. It's all a part of development and it's probably how they made the game over the past five years. I don't think any developer anywhere in the world or in history has released content that is absolutely perfect in every aspect.

The only panicking going on is in the playerbase. People instantly react to news and form all kinds of conspiracies and speculations. Remember how everyone was outraged when dungeons were first unveiled? Remember how people moaned and howled at the introduction of gems and how they would work within the game world? Everyone immediately declared that Guild Wars 2 was Pay to Win, yet here we are after release and people are very happy with the gem system. It's not Pay to Win at all. In time, people will see that this ascended gear update will evolve and become a solid part of the game.

Edited by Robsy128, 28 November 2012 - 02:37 PM.

[Sinful01]

Robsy128, on 28 November 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

Onto the subject at hand, take a look at the AMA again regarding grind. Chris Whiteside never says that he thinks the current grind is good. In fact, he says they're going to change it.

"I would also like add that we have never said there would be no vertical progression. We do intend to focus on horizontal but we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve."

They're moving forward with the focus on zero grind - i.e. they're going to change the current system.

I guess it depends on your definition of "current system" and "change".

Are they going to "change" the "current" Ascended items and/or the grind to get them?  Will they patch the Mystic Forge recipes for the Ascended back items to require, say, totally different materials that are far cheaper than t6 mats?

How explosive will the reaction be from those that already ground out, and threw their 100g worth of materials into the Forge to get their quivers and books when they realize "everyone else" gets to get theirs so much cheaper?

I've seen people with Legendary items turn purple with rage at the thought of others getting "welfare Legendarys" because whats-her-face from ANet said they're looking to make a scavenger hunt path to get them.

Quote

"We absolutely design everything we do with minimal grind and will continue with this principal moving forward."

Pretty much the same thing again, just worded differently. Now I can easily see people going: 'but look at the first part, Robsy! They say they design everything with the focus on minimal grind, yet they made the current content ridiculously grindy!'
I agree, but remember that he's talking about moving forward 98% of the time. Clearly, something went very wrong when they introduced fractals as the gear grind is quite ridiculous.

There is "moving forward" again.  He doesn't say, "omg yes the back pieces are a grind, we're changing those recipes", they're just claiming they're going to be more grind-conscious in the future.

Of course ... everyone has a different view of what a grind is.  We're just supposed to trust that they know the magical grind-balance now.  That spot where people unhappily grind but don't become red-faced about it (because face it, MMOs are all about the grind, right? I've heard that so many times on the official forums from pro-vertical progressionists followed by, "so what are you doing in an MMO if you hate grind?!").  Trusting ANet is hard for some, because they've already shown us they're out of touch with grindage when they introduced the Ascended back pieces.

Quote

Heck, even someone pointed this out to Chris immediately after hearing this:
"Question: With regard to minimal Grind, how is going from 5 Ectos to 50 Ectos for a piece of gear minimal? 5 T6 items to 250 T6 items minimal?

Answer: Good point Nacho. We are currently discussing these particular items and it is fair to say that we don't want to have such big hikes in requirements moving forward.
Chris"

"Moving forward".  Again, it doesn't mean they're going to fix the insane back slot items, which helped jack the hell out of ecto and t6 crafting mats so badly it raised prices on everything high level.

The fact that they released those items is so terribly odd.  No one there has the job of looking at the BLTP, or critically thinking about things being added and asking "well ... what happens after?"  Was their common sense guy out sick that week?

My whole career is basically being that person.  I'm totally not shocked when people do something stupid .. but I'm flabbergasted no one at ANet (and they play the game along side of us) realized the grindy nature of the additions, or how backwards "we're adding something to fix the gap between exotics and legendary" is when you then make it use the same materials and widen the gap you're claiming to fix.

Quote

And to conclude, I shall also finish off by saying that they're going to change the grind and requirements for the new tier of gear, etc. It simply didn't make it into this version of the build, and they are currently looking into it. Implementing a perfect system takes time, and clearly it's nowhere near perfect yet. This is simply the start to something greater and more fun.

I hope they do.  I wish them the best, and will cross my fingers they magically stumble upon the proper balance.

My issue is that, in an MMO, once you release the virus it is out there.  The grind for the items exists.  If they change the current recipes it'll make people foam at the mouth who already baked their items in the Forge.

Which leads to this ...

Quote

"I agree that the crafting materials required for Ascended Gear are too much of a grind and we are looking to balance the requirements in a manner that is fair for all involved and we had always intended for there to be multiple ways to get Ascended Gear it just didn't make it the FotM build."

If they add Ascended Quivers to WvW ... they'll have to be on par, difficulty wise to achieve (difficulty of course, in an MMO means "mean time to acquire in days/hours"), as the FotM version.  If the FotM version stays grindy, the WvW version will have to be grindy.

WvW rewards are already shot to hell.  They're looking at the system, and I'm praying they fix it, but under current conditions it takes ungodly longer to earn a WvW exotic than a crafted one.  I can run around in game for an evening (a few hours) and easily afford an exotic item from the TP ... although that is harder after the ecto and t6 hike.  If I WvW for an evening I'm lucky to get 5% of the tokens needed for a single exotic.

Anyway, ANet screwed up.  They admitted it & apologized.  Fair enough.  Thing is, they're pretty much completely screwed now ... they've painted themselves into a corner.

Edited by Sinful01, 28 November 2012 - 03:23 PM.

[Robsy128]

Sinful01, on 28 November 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

I guess it depends on your definition of "current system" and "change".

Are they going to "change" the "current" Ascended items and/or the grind to get them?  Will they patch the Mystic Forge recipes for the Ascended back items to require, say, totally different materials that are far cheaper than t6 mats?

How explosive will the reaction be from those that already ground out, and threw their 100g worth of materials into the Forge to get their quivers and books when they realize "everyone else" gets to get theirs so much cheaper?

I've seen people with Legendary items turn purple with rage at the thought of others getting "welfare Legendarys" because whats-her-face from ANet said they're looking to make a scavenger hunt path to get them.

To be honest, there's not much you can do about that. You have to make a decision - improve the game and make it better for everyone, or give way to the people who went through a lot of content to get a certain item/s. I've been in many MMOs and many betas. Heck, in the Aion alpha, shards were so ridiculously rare and pricey, people spent hours grinding for them. Then a patch came out that made shards more common. Were people angry? Some, yes, but most of the people were relieved over never having to grind those items again. Grinding is, after all, not fun. It all depends on the definition of grinding as well.
Personally, I think grinding is repeating a dull task in order to obtain something. The real question is (if and when Arenanet applies this patch to take away the grinding of the ascended gear, etc.): did the players have fun? If so, then there's no problem. The game is, after all, a game. You're meant to have fun. If you're not having fun, then it's not a game. It's a chore.
How Arenanet goes about this fix is up to them. I would strongly suggest that they'll only change the grind in order to get the items. They won't change the items themselves. But that's fine - a large portion of people are complaining about the grind only.

Sinful01, on 28 November 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

There is "moving forward" again.  He doesn't say, "omg yes the back pieces are a grind, we're changing those recipes", they're just claiming they're going to be more grind-conscious in the future.

Of course ... everyone has a different view of what a grind is.  We're just supposed to trust that they know the magical grind-balance now.  That spot where people unhappily grind but don't become red-faced about it (because face it, MMOs are all about the grind, right? I've heard that so many times on the official forums from pro-vertical progressionists followed by, "so what are you doing in an MMO if you hate grind?!").  Trusting ANet is hard for some, because they've already shown us they're out of touch with grindage when they introduced the Ascended back pieces.

"Moving forward".  Again, it doesn't mean they're going to fix the insane back slot items, which helped jack the hell out of ecto and t6 crafting mats so badly it raised prices on everything high level.

The fact that they released those items is so terribly odd.  No one there has the job of looking at the BLTP, or critically thinking about things being added and asking "well ... what happens after?"  Was their common sense guy out sick that week?

My whole career is basically being that person.  I'm totally not shocked when people do something stupid .. but I'm flabbergasted no one at ANet (and they play the game along side of us) realized the grindy nature of the additions, or how backwards "we're adding something to fix the gap between exotics and legendary" is when you then make it use the same materials and widen the gap you're claiming to fix.

As I said in a previous post (somewhere), game development isn't always black and white. It's a lot easier to sit on the side of the customers and point fingers, but it's a lot more complex than that when you're on the inside. I explained this before, but I'll explain it again here.
As in many jobs (any job, for that matter), there are deadlines. You, as a developer, do not get to choose the deadlines, unless you're working for yourself (which isn't the case here). There's no denying that this latest content patch was HUGE. A lot of work went into it. The problem is, they obviously had to make some cutbacks/adjustments to the build to:

1. Not break the current game system and economy.
2. Reach the deadline.

Think of the Lost Shores content update as Part 1 of a very long process in order to implement ascended gear into the game. Obviously, they don't wish to make it grindy, but I think they needed to in order to meet the requirements and not break the game. I could be wrong, so please don't take my word as absolute. I'm just offering a suggestion as to why this happened. After all, I heard that they want to implement opportunities in the game world (not just in the Fractals of the Mists dungeon) to obtain ascended gear and overall add dynamic events and make the world much more fun to play. This is a very large task which will require a lot of work. In order to meet deadlines, they can't work on this all the time. There are various teams doing various activities in Arenanet.

You may read that Arenanet has 250 employees, but that doesn't mean they're all working on the Lost Shores content update or the next one. The art teams are generating concept art and in-game assets for Wintersday, as well as the next expansion and future content updates. Some development teams are working on bug fixes, some development teams are working on Wintersay, other development teams are working on the next content update and other development teams are working on the next expansion. QA teams are testing the next build of the game and squishing as many bugs as they can find before the update goes live. It's a very busy and complex environment. I'd wager 50 people in Arenanet aren't even working on the game - they're just there to keep the company running and manage it. So hopefully, as you can all see, it's not simply 'Oh, Arenanet are working on this right now.' No game company ever works on one thing at a time.

Sinful01, on 28 November 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

My issue is that, in an MMO, once you release the virus it is out there.  The grind for the items exists.  If they change the current recipes it'll make people foam at the mouth who already baked their items in the Forge.

Which leads to this ...
If they add Ascended Quivers to WvW ... they'll have to be on par, difficulty wise to achieve (difficulty of course, in an MMO means "mean time to acquire in days/hours"), as the FotM version.  If the FotM version stays grindy, the WvW version will have to be grindy.

WvW rewards are already shot to hell.  They're looking at the system, and I'm praying they fix it, but under current conditions it takes ungodly longer to earn a WvW exotic than a crafted one.  I can run around in game for an evening (a few hours) and easily afford an exotic item from the TP ... although that is harder after the ecto and t6 hike.  If I WvW for an evening I'm lucky to get 5% of the tokens needed for a single exotic.

Anyway, ANet screwed up.  They admitted it & apologized.  Fair enough.  Thing is, they're pretty much completely screwed now ... they've painted themselves into a corner.

I'm sure they'll adjust the grind so that you can obtain ascended gear through various activities, whether they are in dungeons, doing dynamic events, crafting, etc. This all reduces the grind. As for WvW and PvP, I honestly can't comment because I don't play either often enough to know what the issue is. I can understand that the WvW vs PvE economy is completely unbalanced. People playing WvW obviously want to progress at the same rate as people playing PvE. It's a very long process to sort out, though. We just have to give them time.

I agree that Arenanet screwed up and people have quit because of it. Perhaps it was out of fear or just boredom, but Arenanet lost loyal players. I'm hoping they'll learn from this, adjust the game accordingly and keep this in mind when moving forward with the game. I honestly do wish them the best of luck with it, as it is an amazing game.

[Uhhsam]

Oh no, grinding for ascended gear.  Perhaps they should just do away with agony and give everyone instant access to level 1 billion fractals, in which the difficulty is exactly the same as level 1.  I mean, working hard to get deeper into a dungeon that's meant to be hard to get deeper into just isn't right.  Right?

[FoxBat]

Uhhsam, on 28 November 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

Oh no, grinding for ascended gear.  Perhaps they should just do away with agony and give everyone instant access to level 1 billion fractals, in which the difficulty is exactly the same as level 1.  I mean, working hard to get deeper into a dungeon that's meant to be hard to get deeper into just isn't right.  Right?

Level 1 billion isn't any more difficult than level 1 once you've ground out a 1 billion agony resistance infusion. Grinding stats to counter stats isn't difficulty.

If you like working rather than playing, you can always get a second job. Hell you can even earn GW2 gold that way.

Edited by FoxBat, 28 November 2012 - 06:09 PM.

[Runkleford]

Uhhsam, on 28 November 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

Oh no, grinding for ascended gear.  Perhaps they should just do away with agony and give everyone instant access to level 1 billion fractals, in which the difficulty is exactly the same as level 1.  I mean, working hard to get deeper into a dungeon that's meant to be hard to get deeper into just isn't right.  Right?

Like the other guy said, level 1 billion is the same as level 1 when you're just equipping gear to mitigate the extra difficulty. That's why I've been saying that the higher stats on Ascended gear makes no sense if the purpose of the new tier was for this new "challenging" content.

I'd much rather get to level 1 billion based on my own "skill" rather than because I did the dungeon 5 billion times to farm the gear that's doing the work for me in getting to level 1 billion.

[Var]

FoxBat, on 28 November 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

Level 1 billion isn't any more difficult than level 1 once you've ground out a 1 billion agony resistance infusion. Grinding stats to counter stats isn't difficulty.

If you like working rather than playing, you can always get a second job. Hell you can even earn GW2 gold that way.

Not quite. Lvl 1 has 0 agony, and agony resistance does not completely nullify but simply halves the damage per 5 resistance. There is a point at which your gear will be agony maxed (as of so far thats 3x15) while depths do not stop scaling while the gear does. Not much different from the current situation, you can reach 20+ with zero infusions and infusions can be viewed as a crutch. They eventually become necessesary but, eventually, only skill will get you deeper and deeper because the gear stopped.

Thry can effectively add infinite vp in such cases without affecting your normal player.

[BrettM]

Robsy128, on 28 November 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

Remember how people moaned and howled at the introduction of gems and how they would work within the game world? Everyone immediately declared that Guild Wars 2 was Pay to Win, yet here we are after release and people are very happy with the gem system. It's not Pay to Win at all.

It may not be Pay to Win, but not all of us are happy with it. Some charr may be more evil than others, but the lesser of two evils is still evil. I may not be utterly outraged over the gem shop offerings as I would be if players could buy the Uber Sword of World Conquest there, but I am certainly very irritated by some aspects of it.

[Darkobra]

Uhhsam, on 28 November 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

Oh no, grinding for ascended gear.  Perhaps they should just do away with agony and give everyone instant access to level 1 billion fractals, in which the difficulty is exactly the same as level 1.  I mean, working hard to get deeper into a dungeon that's meant to be hard to get deeper into just isn't right.  Right?

Hyperbole from someone that's on level 6 Fractals. The only difference between one and your theoretical one billion is agony. So gear now substitutes skill.

Still, I suppose that would give you an illusion of you being better at the game, so you're all for it.

[Lafiele]

I think we're missing the key point here though. I thought in the AMA, Chris clearly acknowledge their intention that ascended gear was SUPPOSE to be implemented throughout the game but has later found to be a grave mistake and will only be implemented within one area of the game. Therefore, exotic items at this stage will STILL be highest tier of armor in other aspects of the game. Having said this, with future implementations where there will be more ways to obtain ascended gear (possibly easier than what it is now) and enough of the crowd can get it, I reckon they will sneak this idea back in since at that time, everyone would have it and people won't complain as much since getting ascended gear is no longer something which requires significant effort.

Correct me if i'm wrong though.

[n00854180t]

Robsy128, on 28 November 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

[snip, irrelevant stuff]

Nothing you posted refutes what I said. ANet and Chris Whiteside flushed their credibility into the toilet by claiming they make everything with "minimal grind" when that is obviously and easily refuted as being completely absurd.

I'm still waiting on a reason I should hold any stock in things they say when they go and spout nonsense like that, and then (when they get called out on it, as they did in that thread) start backpedaling (saying "Oh yeah they're too grindy").

Edited by n00854180t, 28 November 2012 - 10:26 PM.

[DuskWolf]

BrettM, on 28 November 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

Some charr may be more evil than others [...]

Or some humans may be far more evil than some charr. That's what Pyre was talking about, by the way. That Gwen is more evil than any charr he calls friend as none of his own kind would capture and torture someone who's innocent of their accused crimes. Which is precisely what Gwen did. But we all know that Gwen is Lady Crazy anyway, a complete psychopath and the least likeable character of the lot.

Gwen is really the poster girl for 'why aren't women as portrayed in games allowed the same self-respect and dignity as would be granted to men.' You have cool-headed guys, and then you have PMS Gwen. One of the things I really didn't like about EotN. ArenaNet could really take lessons from FemShep as to how to represent women respectfully in games. Gwen was shameful.

Sorry, it just bugs me when Dexter throws in things like that.

Edited by DuskWolf, 28 November 2012 - 10:35 PM.

[Robsy128]

BrettM, on 28 November 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

It may not be Pay to Win, but not all of us are happy with it. Some charr may be more evil than others, but the lesser of two evils is still evil. I may not be utterly outraged over the gem shop offerings as I would be if players could buy the Uber Sword of World Conquest there, but I am certainly very irritated by some aspects of it.

The point is, people were over-dramatic about the whole thing, which lead people to declare that the game was Pay to Win, which in fact it wasn't. It's exactly the same again here. Arenanet release one content patch which went sideways and people suddenly declare 'Arenanet has no idea what they're doing! Nooo00000111!! WoW Clo0n3. Oh ma G00sh. End of th3 W0rld '

n00854180t, on 28 November 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

Nothing you posted refutes what I said. ANet and Chris Whiteside flushed their credibility into the toilet by claiming they make everything with "minimal grind" when that is obviously and easily refuted as being completely absurd.

I'm still waiting on a reason I should hold any stock in things they say when they go and spout nonsense like that, and then (when they get called out on it, as they did in that thread) start backpedaling (saying "Oh yeah they're too grindy").

It doesn't refute it - it just explains why Arenanet had to implement said grind to the game.
What can we learn from the AMA?
Arenanet added grind.
Arenanet realise their mistake.
Arenanet are fixing it.

What else do you expect them to do? I mean, really, I would love someone to seriously answer this question. What else can Arenanet say aside from: 'we are fixing it.' Do you expect them to shower you with gems? Kiss your feet? Make a game called 'Devs Must Die!' - what?

Go - call people liars and cheats. You're going to be waiting with the rest of us either way, unless you plan on leaving.

Edited by Robsy128, 28 November 2012 - 11:15 PM.

[n00854180t]

Robsy128, on 28 November 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

The point is, people were over-dramatic about the whole thing, which lead people to declare that the game was Pay to Win, which in fact it wasn't. It's exactly the same again here. Arenanet release one content patch which went sideways and people suddenly declare 'Arenanet has no idea what they're doing! Nooo00000111!! WoW Clo0n3. Oh ma G00sh. End of th3 W0rld '



It doesn't refute it - it just explains why Arenanet had to implement said grind to the game.
What can we learn from the AMA?
Arenanet added grind.
Arenanet realise their mistake.
Arenanet are fixing it.

What else do you expect them to do? I mean, really, I would love someone to seriously answer this question. What else can Arenanet say aside from: 'we are fixing it.' Do you expect them to shower you with gems? Kiss your feet? Make a game called 'Devs Must Die!' - what?

Go - call people liars and cheats. You're going to be waiting with the rest of us either way, unless you plan on leaving.

You're conveniently forgetting that he didn't backpedal and say it was too grindy until after he was called on saying it was "minimal grind".

[Drekor]

Robsy128, on 28 November 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

It's not a panic reaction at all. It has simply been added because they wanted to fill the time gap in between exotic and legendary gear. Ascended gear fills that gap. It's realising a problem with the game design and adjusting it to make it better. Okay, they added a lot of grind in the process, but they realise that problem now and are working on fixing it. It's all a part of development and it's probably how they made the game over the past five years. I don't think any developer anywhere in the world or in history has released content that is absolutely perfect in every aspect.

Well congratulations on regurgitating ANets rhetoric.

It's probably worth while to inform you it does not fill a time gap because it uses the same resources that legendaries do so any time you spend earning ascended gear is further delaying your time to get a legendary. Simple fact is what ANet has been saying isn't reflected in their actions at all. They say their intention was to minimize grind. What is the reality? A ridiculous grind. It's effectively impossible to make a mistake like that. It just doesn't happen. The idea and concepts of this had to be discussed between different developers, it likely had to pass through programmers and testers and probably other folks too. Something so horribly off base from what their intentions were just cannot get through all those levels without someone saying "Uh... guys? wtf is this?". The only logical answer is their intentions have changed since the patch was released likely because of the giant shit storm it created.

Edited by Drekor, 29 November 2012 - 12:39 AM.

[Robsy128]

n00854180t, on 28 November 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

You're conveniently forgetting that he didn't backpedal and say it was too grindy until after he was called on saying it was "minimal grind".

An answer is still an answer, regardless of how or when it came to be. If you don't ask the question, how can you possibly know the answer?

Drekor, on 29 November 2012 - 12:38 AM, said:

Well congratulations on regurgitating ANets rhetoric.

It's probably worth while to inform you it does not fill a time gap because it uses the same resources that legendaries do so any time you spend earning ascended gear is further delaying your time to get a legendary. Simple fact is what ANet has been saying isn't reflected in their actions at all. They say their intention was to minimize grind. What is the reality? A ridiculous grind. It's effectively impossible to make a mistake like that. It just doesn't happen. The idea and concepts of this had to be discussed between different developers, it likely had to pass through programmers and testers and probably other folks too. Something so horribly off base from what their intentions were just cannot get through all those levels without someone saying "Uh... guys? wtf is this?". The only logical answer is their intentions have changed since the patch was released likely because of the giant shit storm it created.

All of which will be fixed, as stated in the AMA. How it will be fixed is up for speculation, but we are assured that it will be fixed so that there will be zero/minimal grind.

Edited by Robsy128, 29 November 2012 - 12:42 AM.

[fatrodmc]

Robsy128, on 29 November 2012 - 12:40 AM, said:

All of which will be fixed, as stated in the AMA.

What do you think the fix is going to look like, when they already came out and said that they think VP is 'fun' and not a grind?

[Nox_Aeterna]

Well , i think i got soon there will be pandas/orcs and elfs.

Really , GW2 wait erase that ... WoW:GW version. This is what i got pretty much.

Honestly , i dont know what is gonna happen to this game , the devs? they have no idea also it seems , they will add stuff ... and hey , if it works, it works right? If not , lets balance cause ... well dont really matter , just toss stuff in there and it will make people happy , if not we make it easy till they love it.

Gotta wait and see where this madness will stop. Maybe the result will actually still have something we can call GW.

[Glider]

Robsy128, on 28 November 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

To be honest, I imagine they ran out of time to completely do the system how they wanted to do it. They could easily have been pushed by NCSoft or even Nexon to release the content patch before it was ready. Coming from the gaming industry myself, I know that developers don't have all the time in the world to make the perfect content patches or even perfect games. There are always deadlines and if you miss them or feel like you're going to miss them, you have to make sure that the content you're working on is as good as it can be without ruining the entire game. I imagine that's why the insane grind was added to the recently added items - a placeholder to buy more time so that they can work on a much better system.
Of course, I'm only offering a suggestion. I don't work for Arenanet, so I have no idea what's happening inside their offices as I type this. Just bear in mind that making systems and content takes a lot of time and a lot of work. Often publishers or even managers can be pushy, so you have to make compromises.

While you present some interesting points I'd like to say that the result is the one that doesn't correlate with manifesto anyway. They may have their reason, deadlines, etc. It really may be a placeholder (I doubth it) but as of now it does require insane grind. And "power plateu" promise went down in flames as well.

[DuskWolf]

Robsy128, on 28 November 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

Go - call people liars and cheats. You're going to be waiting with the rest of us either way, unless you plan on leaving.

Some of us have left. Some of us are just hanging around because the ongoing debate of horizontal versus vertical progression and how easily the fans are swayed by ArenaNet's hollow promises is... interesting, the latter leaves me morbidly curious as to just how many times (nad how hard) they'll need to stab someone like you in the back before you stop believing. But I know that you want to believe, and I feel kind of sorry for you.

Look at the power plateau for the best example. So much potential, wasted by pushing the goalposts back by forcing vertical progression on people who clearly don't want it.