198 replies to this topic

[Rhydian]

Well I can clearly see whats going on with the dialogue now. The gear grinders are scared that they got what they wanted and will soon be playing in a non populated graveyard. They need YOU to keep playing and not get a refund so Raiders wont be blamed for ending what was a promising game and gear grinding without a large player base of slaves is meaningless since no one cares about your gear score, just a few months after they got what they wanted with TOR and watched that ship sink into the ocean.

Get a refund and put these bastards underneath the ocean, dont give them second or third chances you know better than that,  the only way you will get through to these developers that you don't want a Gear Grind is if the investors start losing money Period. A collective tell Nexon to go get #@$%#@%ed is in order here. Bail out with the golden parachute, and maybe after the game is almost dead and Nexon moves on to the next cash cow will things move in a better direction, hell you can always buy it again for 12 dollars when the price drops.

[Var]

fatrodmc, on 29 November 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

What do you think the fix is going to look like, when they already came out and said that they think VP is 'fun' and not a grind?

Because opinions make fact now.

Tsk tsk.

This thread is becoming more and more draconian, and more and more self-fueling for the same set of posters, that it's rather amusing. Though I think you've honestly scared the willies off of many of the regular posters because I only see them posting (merrily I might add) in the news threads now.

[Lordkrall]

I find it quite interesting that people are saying that the only difference between level 1 Fractals and level 1 million Fractals is Agony.

Have you guys actually played Fractals past level 1?

There is a rather big difference between level 1 and level 4 and that does not even have Agony.

The bosses does more damage and have more health. New abilities. Regular non-boss parts have more and harder stuff (Cliffside comes to mind, especially the part with the fire-aoe DoTs).

[Swoopeh]

Robsy128, on 28 November 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

Now you're just assuming that Arenanet have turned into a company that wants to destroy their own game. Of course they know what they're doing. As I explained above, it's not easy to create the perfect systems. It takes time. Often it takes a lot of time to implement patches as big as that one without destroying the game. Publishers and managers always push you, however, and compromises have to be made. They've already explained why they added the items, and they've stated that they should have had it in the game before launch. Hindsight is, after all, a wonderful thing. They've admitted their mistake and have promised to improve upon the current situation.
They must have known the content patch would have been problematic. They've told us they understand the problem and are working on it. What more can they say? What would you say if you were in their shoes?

Glad to see a voice of reason here. Sadly most people seem incapable of placing themselves in Anet's shoes (or unwilling to) and need to resort to narrow minded, one-sided arguments like shouting "gear treadmill! GW2 is just like WoW now!" when they introduce a single tier thats only slightly better than Exotic and even then only a ring and a back slot item. Or saying that Anet has "lied through their teeth" and "betrayed" us (really?). The hyperbole continues to be strong and there seems to be a total unwillingness to chill out.

Like Robsy said, most likely the case is that Anet is currently stressed trying to fix current issues while creating new content and they were forced by the publisher to release so had to make some concessions. One of those concessions is that they needed to implement Ascended gear in a way that would make it easy to implement (unlike creating special events or a new crafting subsystem for example) so they could roll it out quickly, then change it later on. They really don't need the community to tell them how to design their game - I'm sure they realise the mats for Ascended gear are grindy but when the choice was to either release it like that or don't release it at all they chose to release it (again pushed by the publisher). Seeing as it was a big part of the patch creating a new subsystem for getting Ascended gear would have pushed the November update back by at least a month, if not more.

Tbh I get the feeling the entire game was released 2 months too soon due to pressure from NCsoft which has lead to a less than polished experience and has now caused a huge backlog of things for them to fix while still needing to be on time with new content. Not a good situation for them to be in and having part of the community scream at them and stomp their feet isn't going to help.

I honestly do understand why people are miffed when things don't turn out as they expected but try not to draw conclusions based on conspiracy theories and while having a lack of insight into what's really happening behind the scenes, nor knowing what's going to happen in the future. Too many assumptions. I'm making assumptions about the development here as well but I do keep the possibility open that they are indeed only after our money and don't care about the players - if that turns out to be true then I'll go somewhere else but I don't know that it is so I wont treat it as the truth because that won't help anyone. In the mean time the game supplies me with lots of entertainment so I'm not going to nitpick everything that isn't perfect but enjoy what we have (and isn't bugged ) instead.

Robsy128, on 28 November 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

The point is, people were over-dramatic about the whole thing, which lead people to declare that the game was Pay to Win, which in fact it wasn't. It's exactly the same again here. Arenanet release one content patch which went sideways and people suddenly declare 'Arenanet has no idea what they're doing! Nooo00000111!! WoW Clo0n3. Oh ma G00sh. End of th3 W0rld '

Indeed, this attitude on these forums is making me sick, not because I don't want Anet to be bashed but because most of these arguments are incredibly short sighted and people seem to be ravenous for drama without coherent, balanced thought. Maybe I expect too much of people when having a discussion and trying to see both sides of an argument. Top tip: if you need to exaggerate and make up arguments to support your point then it wasn't a really good point to begin with and maybe you should consider the possibility that things aren't all that bad. Not everyone is out to get you and companies are generally not based on lies and deceit because that's incredibly bad for business.

Edited by Swoopeh, 29 November 2012 - 09:41 AM.

[Robsy128]

fatrodmc, on 29 November 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

What do you think the fix is going to look like, when they already came out and said that they think VP is 'fun' and not a grind?

VP is fun and doesn't have to be a grind. Honestly, I'm glad they're taking this step with GW2. Don't get me wrong - I loved the original Guild Wars and own all of the campaigns as well as the expansion, but I'm glad they're doing something different with Guild Wars 2. It's a brand new game, after all. If I wanted exactly the same progression/gear/levels as Guild Wars 1, then I would play Guild Wars 1.

Glider, on 29 November 2012 - 05:15 AM, said:

While you present some interesting points I'd like to say that the result is the one that doesn't correlate with manifesto anyway. They may have their reason, deadlines, etc. It really may be a placeholder (I doubt it) but as of now it does require insane grind. And "power plateu" promise went down in flames as well.

True, but they said they would fix the grind, so it would be going back to the Manifesto all of the fans hold onto like Christians hold onto the Holy Bible. As for the vertical progression, I personally think it's a good idea. Now before you all shoot me down in flames, call me a 'fanboy' and all the rest of the lovely bubbling hate that has been growing rapidly on these forums, hear me out.

As of right now, you reach level 80, finish the storyline, do the dungeons (which are insanely fun) to get the dungeon armour and that's it. You've reached the end. What else is there to do? Sure, explore the world, get 100% map completion, or start working on a legendary. Aside from that, though, your character kind of pauses, or is marked as 'finished' and you move onto the next. It was the same in Guild Wars 1. You finished the campaign/s, got your max stat armour as well as all of the runes (if you had the money - if you had no money, you had to grind for it. I mean, ahem, work for it since there is meant to be no grind in any Arenanet-made game whatsoever). Then you came up with an epic build that destroyed everything on sight, did some elite areas and that was it. PvP and quit.
At least with vertical progression (not a gear treadmill - just minor stat increases and no grinding - if you can imagine that at all), your character continues. They can still be played and you're still rewarded for playing them. That's satisfying

DuskWolf, on 29 November 2012 - 05:24 AM, said:

Some of us have left. Some of us are just hanging around because the ongoing debate of horizontal versus vertical progression and how easily the fans are swayed by ArenaNet's hollow promises is... interesting, the latter leaves me morbidly curious as to just how many times (nad how hard) they'll need to stab someone like you in the back before you stop believing. But I know that you want to believe, and I feel kind of sorry for you.

Look at the power plateau for the best example. So much potential, wasted by pushing the goalposts back by forcing vertical progression on people who clearly don't want it.

Clearly people do want it, though. I personally think it's a good idea, and I'm sure many others feel the same way. This isn't Guild Wars 1 - nor was it meant to be. It's a completely different game. The sooner people realise that, the better. And in my opinion, Arenanet hasn't stabbed me in the back whatsoever. I'm not forced to grind for ascended gear (I mean, a ring and back-piece at the moment? Really? No... just no, I'm not even going to enter that debate over something so small). They'll fix the grind in any way that they can and all will be good in my opinion. As long as the game is still fun, I'll still play, and my word it is fun at the moment

Edited by Robsy128, 29 November 2012 - 12:46 PM.

[zabiku]

I think the real matter at heart that a lot of people are forgetting, but unconsciously upset about, gear treadmill/ascended/stat capping aside, is that Anet is putting so much time and effort into this vertical progression of gathering the best gear and etc..while the rest of us who want to enjoy the MMO for being an MMO being that Anet is one of the very few companies to actually create a rich and playable LORE within a game that isn't stale and revolving around the player. Where is Anet's talk on flourishing mid level content?

Right now as I see it, there is no real honest content in this game. It's just a shell with 3 distinct points (which, hear me out first GW1 never honestly had an issue with, keep reading), there is making your character, picking whether you're doing WvW/PvP/or Leveling To 80 (not PvE!), and then you start to worry about your gear and how you look. There is no meat to this game like there was in its original form. The sense of PvE is really lost in GW2 compared to the first game, there is no real content that we are given while we level up. Sure there is a lot of nice maps to walk through but its honestly all fodder because they're mostly barren other than the people roaming through them for map completion. If it wasn't for the fact that Anet is literally forcing people through the form of achievements to visit these maps, they'd be more barren than they already are.

It saddens me to see how shallow a company has become, it seems like ArenaNet is too focused on worrying about their gear, than actually adding content and making it a joy to do the said grinding for these gears they're introducing, and leaving it as a mundane task that pisses everyone off. I can say for a matter of fact that IF the game's content was actually fun and deep like we were promised, the matter of grinding for gear and everything wouldn't even be a concern because people would WANT to do it. Instead Anet is saying, here you gotta get all this crap and do it in a way that hardly anyone likes and if you want to obtain it another way or actually enjoy the time you spend doing it, well tough deal with it.

I know that the moment someone mentions anything about GW1 and how GW2 doesn't stack up to it and etc is almost taboo now, but I'm not trying to make a direct comparison. I myself find the small few improvements that GW2 brings a nice plus and GW2 as a whole is much better than the first, but when you take what wasn't broken like your company's devotion to making quality content and replace it with stereotypical BS like gear progression and making that a focal point rather than just introducing things like stat caps and flat gear so that people can enjoy the game's content, its just a shame. I don't care about the manifesto or things developers say regarding the current state of the game, because its all just a bunch of evasive talk given to players with honest concerns. All I want from GW2 is for it to actually break the mold and make content actually worth it and give me a reason to do the grinding they want me to do and to have fun with the many ways I can achieve those goals rather than funnel me into one specific path and tell me if I don't want to do it then I might as well just not bother. But at the same time I honestly can't put all the blame on Anet, the player base is to blame as well, 2 weeks after release of Fractals and now people have successfully made that a chore but what can you do, its the way of all games.

Edited by zabiku, 29 November 2012 - 01:44 PM.

[Millimidget]

Robsy128, on 29 November 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

At least with vertical progression (not a gear treadmill - just minor stat increases and no grinding - if you can imagine that at all), your character continues.

Have you even tried the fractals yet? Grind fractal daily chest for RNG chance at one piece that has random stats and may only benefit you by offering +5 Agony resist, grind upwards of 50 hours for tokens or mats for another piece, and these are probably amongst the cheapest pieces...

[Darkobra]

Millimidget, on 29 November 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

Have you even tried the fractals yet? Grind fractal daily chest for RNG chance at one piece that has random stats and may only benefit you by offering +5 Agony resist, grind upwards of 50 hours for tokens or mats for another piece, and these are probably amongst the cheapest pieces...

You must be VERY unlucky. 7 runs, 4 rings, 3 of which benefit me to the point that I keep them with me at all times. And the Fractals take on average 40 minutes to an hour for a run, and are also very generous with other drops.

[Robsy128]

Millimidget, on 29 November 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

Have you even tried the fractals yet? Grind fractal daily chest for RNG chance at one piece that has random stats and may only benefit you by offering +5 Agony resist, grind upwards of 50 hours for tokens or mats for another piece, and these are probably amongst the cheapest pieces...

All of which will be changed in the future. Arenanet are working on the grind. I feel like I keep repeating the same message over and over again and people still aren't reading everything in context.

[Millimidget]

Robsy128, on 29 November 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

All of which will be changed in the future. Arenanet are working on the grind. I feel like I keep repeating the same message over and over again and people still aren't reading everything in context.

You are repeating the same message over and over again. I'll believe it when I see it. Empty statements about "we made a mistake" are empty, especially when they're backtracking on forthright opinion offered shortly before.

[viespea]

Common, to much negativity, dungeon tokens were broken also at the beginning; now they are pretty decent and you get full gear quite easy.

[Sinful01]

Darkobra, on 29 November 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

You must be VERY unlucky. 7 runs, 4 rings, 3 of which benefit me to the point that I keep them with me at all times. And the Fractals take on average 40 minutes to an hour for a run, and are also very generous with other drops.

Relying on luck isn't fun to me & I seem to be "very unlucky" (or worse) when it counts to loot in game. So, a lot of the GW2 content is setting me off lately. I find this whole "fight with RNG" aspect of the game disheartening as the focus ends up on that one click to open the FotM Daily chest ... "please please please let me not have to grind this stage again" and not on the actual content or the 'fun', as that dried up 6 runs ago when I started finding the fractals repetitive.  I can't see how the higher level ones are different because I'm trapped by RNG.

You've gotten "generous" drops in FotM? I've gotten bad RNG (every time I guess?) because I've gotten around 7 or 8 yellow items in 50-55 fractals.  I have not gotten an exotic drop.  Actually .. I have never gotten an exotic drop ever in hundreds of played hours if you do not count the Karka final chest in which they were guaranteed.  I've done dragons so many times I can sleep through them, dungeons, FotM, just normal PvE, WvW, etc etc.

I repeat ... I have never found anything better than a rare.  I have 1 level 80 and 2 characters in the 50-65 range. Every exotic I have were TP purchases.  I got 2 via Mystic Forge, neither I could use, that were worth about 10% more (after TP fees) than the 4 rares I combined.  Every other Forge attempt resulted in another rare, or nothing (twice I've had the Forge not give me a single item in place of the 4 rares I put in).

Very much of the game feels RNG actually ... too much.
Drops? Big RNG.  Salvage? Big RNG. Mystic Forge? Colossal RNG.

FotM Daily Chest is RNG to get a ring ... then RNG if it is useful or not.

I pray they loosen the RNG stranglehold on things, but it is so ingrained in the game I doubt they can at this point.

viespea, on 29 November 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

Common, to much negativity, dungeon tokens were broken also at the beginning; now they are pretty decent and you get full gear quite easy.

'Quite easily' maybe, but repetitively time consuming   I have 1 piece of dungeon armor from helping guildies finish off their sets, but the thought of rerunning the same dungeon dozens of time makes me both laugh and cry.

Edited by Sinful01, 29 November 2012 - 03:36 PM.

[Robsy128]

Millimidget, on 29 November 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

You are repeating the same message over and over again. I'll believe it when I see it. Empty statements about "we made a mistake" are empty, especially when they're backtracking on forthright opinion offered shortly before.

Well going by what they've said and done in the past, I believe Arenanet when they say they'll fix it. Either way, continue playing the game if you still like it. I'm finding it fun as hell - especially the fractals I'm not even doing it for the armour or whatever. I'm just doing it because it's really fun to play. Seriously, I have missed playing games simply because they're fun. Often they feel like work and I've found myself forcing myself onto the game just to play it.

[Shroomhead Fred]

Sinful01, on 29 November 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

'Quite easily' maybe, but repetitively time consuming   I have 1 piece of dungeon armor from helping guildies finish off their sets, but the thought of rerunning the same dungeon dozens of time makes me both laugh and cry.

Spare a thought for people needing 100 lodestones to make their legendary.

I recently checked out what I'd need to craft Bolt.  Never mind the multiple 250x T6 mats required to craft the gifts...  On top of all that you need 100x charged lodestones to craft the gift of lightning!  Only one place I know of that drops charged lodestones and that's the Crucible of Eternity dungeon.  I've run this dungeon around 20-30 times already (for the skins) so far and can only boast 6 charged lodestones and around 12 or so charged cores.  So by my precise calculations, I'd need to run this dungeon another 50 quadrillion times to get the lodestones I require.  Somehow I don't see that happening.

[baels]

Shroomhead Fred, on 29 November 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

Spare a thought for people needing 100 lodestones to make their legendary.

I recently checked out what I'd need to craft Bolt.  Never mind the multiple 250x T6 mats required to craft the gifts...  On top of all that you need 100x charged lodestones to craft the gift of lightning!  Only one place I know of that drops charged lodestones and that's the Crucible of Eternity dungeon.  I've run this dungeon around 20-30 times already (for the skins) so far and can only boast 6 charged lodestones and around 12 or so charged cores.  So by my precise calculations, I'd need to run this dungeon another 50 quadrillion times to get the lodestones I require.  Somehow I don't see that happening.

Kill sparks/air elementals in Malchor's leap.

[Var]

baels, on 29 November 2012 - 11:29 PM, said:

Kill sparks/air elementals in Malchor's leap.

Or kill the Jade Maw.

[Shroomhead Fred]

baels, on 29 November 2012 - 11:29 PM, said:

Kill sparks/air elementals in Malchor's leap.

Fo real?  I may just go give that a go!  Cheers

[n00854180t]

Shroomhead Fred, on 29 November 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

Fo real?  I may just go give that a go!  Cheers

Keep in mind you'll probably get 1 (or none) every 3+ hours. It's not a reliable farm at all. Last time I tried it I was farming sparks/air elementals for over 5 hours without a single lodestone drop.

[Achromatis]

Robsy128, on 29 November 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

All of which will be changed in the future. Arenanet are working on the grind. I feel like I keep repeating the same message over and over again and people still aren't reading everything in context.

What worries me is that they thought it was a good idea in the first place.