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#1 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:06 AM

So while completing the wiki's article on the Orrian History Scrolls, something struck me interestingly when I re-read them in detail, particularly about Abaddon (and less so, the other gods too). The specific dialogue I am going to refer to is here. Please read through it before reading my post, so that you may develop your own idea on it.

A short recap on the story of Abaddon:
Abaddon was the God of Secrets and Water, his most devout followers being the Margonites. In 1 BE, he tampered the original bloodstone and gave magic in large quantities to the races of Tyria which was subsequently taken away from them when the other five gods, after being pleaded by King Doric, divided the bloodstone into five parts and dumped it into the largest volcano on the RIng of FIre (aptly named Abaddon's Mouth). Abaddon hated this and fought against the other five gods on the southern edge of the Crystal Sea, having sent the Horde of Darkness - an elite group of demonic Margonites - to attack the Gate of Heaven (whatever this may be). He was defeated, of course - his defeat raising the sea and turning its coastline into the Desolation, the sea itself becoming the Crystal Desert (which may or may not have existed prior to as well). Abaddon was then sealed into the Realm of Torment along with his fanatic followers. What follows after that, irrelevant to this discussion.


Now, it was never explained why Abaddon gave magic to the world or why Abaddon disagreed with limiting it. This has been left up in the air for who knows how long. I believe I might have found a hint to what that reasoning was - well, outside the obvious following of his apparent motto of "Act with magic, act within reason, act without mercy."

From the Orrian History Scrolls on the Six Gods, there are a few lines of special note. Firstly, from Abaddon's entry which at first glance gives nothing to us:

Among them was Abaddon—once secret-keeper, now betrayer. How you have fallen from the glorious days of old. What passed beyond in the Mists, only you remember. Abaddon, Abaddon. Your name has been erased from the towers, your cathedral condemned to the sea. Turn your faces away, oh sons and daughters, and let not his gifts tempt you.

The bolded line is the sole piece of importance. This could obviously refer to Abaddon being imprisoned in the Realm of Torment, but I find this unlikely - this is not something only Abaddon would remember. Of course, these are written in prose and thus might not be literal, so there's a chance this is indeed in reference to that and how knowledge of him was removed.

And alone, it'd be natural to assume so. However, take in lines from the other gods' entries. For starters, let's begin with Dwayna:

The first of the gods to step forth from the mists was Dwayna, goddess of air and life. She placed her pale foot on the stones of Arah, opened the gates, and brought humanity to the world. She chose Tyria and brought with her those who would make this world a paradise. As she had promised, Dwayna led her people to peace.

There's a few things to dissect here. First, the underlined bit: this implies that Arah had been in existence as Dwayna landed. Of course, the same sentence implies humanity also first stepped foot on the world at Arah, but we know that they existed on Cantha before Orr. However, we do know that the location of Arah had structures - built by the forgotten - as we learn in the Arah explorable dungeon. This means Dwayna was likely guided there, I presume by the forgotten given the structure's origins and the fact that the forgotten are servants of the Six Gods.

From the bold, we learn that Dwayna made the decision to go to Tyria and that she was seeking to create a better world, a paradise. If one seeks to make a paradise, that usually means they are leaving something which is not, and cannot be made a paradise - otherwise, they'd be spreading paradise, not making it. In other words, the place where the Six Gods comes from had problems that Dwayna could not fix.

Now, from the section on Lyssa, which is far more important:

The two who are one, Issa and Lys,[sic] brought with her the hope and beauty of humanity. While the other gods focused on building Arah and beginning a new future, Lyssa gave them joy and helped them forget the past. For a while she lived, veiled and hidden, in the village of Wren. When the building of Arah was completed Lyssa was commanded to join the other gods, though her tears fell like rain among the western road.

Originally when I read this, I thought the bolded line was what Lyssa did for humanity. However, on a second readthrough, the sentence is talking about Lyssa giving the other gods joy and helped the gods forget the past.

This, combined with the underlined - that the gods worked to begin a new future, e.g., a new start - means that there was something that at least Lyssa wanted the others to forget. Something that brought the other gods sadness.

Now combine this with the line from Dwayna's - that she sought to make a paradise - and the fact they came from somewhere else bringing humanity with them. This sounds like they were fleeing something. What that something is remains a mystery to us. But now add on the line from Abaddon's section - that he remembers.

In other words, there was a past calamity, the Six Gods fled this calamity and brought humanity with them. As the gods worked to begin anew, Lyssa effectively did a mind wipe on them, but failed with Abaddon. He remembered, being the "secret-keeper," and he acted, thus "betraying" the other gods.

I believe, from this, that Abaddon's actions was in order to prevent a return of this unknown calamity that the other gods had forgotten about. Thus, he was imprisoned not for being evil, but for being misunderstood (of course, after a thousand years of torment and solitude, even Abaddon would go evil by the time of Nightfall).

(And for the real conspiracy nut: add in the fact Lyssa was the one who ordered us to kill Abaddon in Nightfall, and the various Devoted fought during Temple of the Forgotten God personal story mission and how they're all mesmers, and one being the Devoted of Illusions)

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#2 Steadfast Gao Shun

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:37 AM

EDIT: Konig, pardon me for asking this, but do we have any evidence in terms of when these scrolls are composed? Are they composed by more recent authors (e.g. Durmand Priory), or are they "historical" in nature?

I was always under the assumption that Abaddon had a different goal in mind. However, no matter how benign his assumptions may have been, it is clear that the events foretold by the Elonians - known as Nightfall - is anything but. To facilitate discussion, I'll be the first to step in and say: I think we'll need to see more pieces of the story before we can make a reasonable interpretation of the events.

An action, just as likely, would be that Abaddon was seeking to funnel more power to himself. Note that the Margonites were his exclusive worshippers. He could have simply been looking for an excuse to challenge the Five - and this would have been the perfect time to do it.

Or the Five might've been trying to get rid of him for whatever purposes the Five holds. Jadoth, the first Margonite, was transformed because the Forgotten were after him, and we've already established that the Forgotten, no matter who they may be, are firmly sided with the Five. ;) We know that there were Forgotten structures in Arah beforehand. So, something to think about: who really started the conflict? :)

... I'm gonna add to your crazy theory and say that the Forgotten are the true masterminds behind it all. It was they who called to the Five, knowing that they would bring humanity over. Then they may utilize humans for whatever their purpose may be - mwahaha.

(Ok. I propose that we run Arah explorable in-game. Just a bunch of us lore-bugs. I will provide all the coinage for repairs if we can find out more.)

Edited by Steadfast Gao Shun, 27 November 2012 - 03:50 AM.


#3 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:10 AM

We only know the scrolls were provided by a member of the Durmand Priory - their age and viability is unknown, and they do hold a couple errors (that is, Lyssa's true names).

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#4 Omega X

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:34 AM

I'm confused.

If it was known that humans were in Cantha before Orr, how did Dwayna bring them to Tyria? From what I read above, The Six brought humans to Arah. But somehow, humans were already on Cantha?

Did I read that wrong?

Also, its a nice theory. I never did dive deep enough into the reasoning behind bringing humans to Tyria or even why they cut off all ties with Tyria now. It can't be fear of the Dragons if mere mortals can take them down. Hopefully ArenaNET will elaborate on the why and how in the future.

#5 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:22 AM

You read it right - it just means that there's two points of falsity in the Orrian History Scrolls regarding the Six (two known, that is) - the other being, as said, the true names of Lyssa (they're not Issa and Lys, but Lyss and Ilya).

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#6 Meister

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:29 AM

View PostOmega X, on 27 November 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

-snip-

Also, its a nice theory. I never did dive deep enough into the reasoning behind bringing humans to Tyria or even why they cut off all ties with Tyria now. It can't be fear of the Dragons if mere mortals can take them down. Hopefully ArenaNET will elaborate on the why and how in the future.

But we are Mortals with so many magic in us, the gods are a big source of magic, Magic ofcourse dragons feed on, one of the reasons the seer made the bloodstones to store uncorrupted magic.
So essentially the gods are a big Happy meal for the ED's
(as stated by Konig in another topic)

Edited by Meister, 27 November 2012 - 09:30 AM.


#7 Baktwerel

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:58 AM

Well it certainly does sound interesting. I remember watching a video about the Tyria globe that was found among the files, and I think there were mentions that many continents we have not set foot on yet (neither in GW1, nor in GW2) lack general things like rivers and lakes. Who knows, maybe the gods lived on another continent, things went terribly wrong and they had to abandon that place - that may or may not still have some sort of life, in worst case what caused the calamity- which we may get to visit one day. The theory may not be 100% legit lore wise, but it certainly moves one's imagination. Personally, I'm curious about their past that they forgot.

#8 draxynnic

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:54 PM

View PostMeister, on 27 November 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

But we are Mortals with so many magic in us, the gods are a big source of magic, Magic ofcourse dragons feed on, one of the reasons the seer made the bloodstones to store uncorrupted magic.
So essentially the gods are a big Happy meal for the ED's
(as stated by Konig in another topic)
Pretty much. The ED's are at least powerful enough that there's a risk that it might be the dragon that eats the god, and a dragon who's just eaten a god has just become significantly more powerful. Mortals don't carry that risk.

Going back to the OP, I've discussed this a bit with Konig in-game, but for the record I'd point out that the reason Abaddon was imprisoned (from what we've been told previously) isn't that he gave away too much magic, it's because of the war that came afterwards. So unless that's another inaccuracy, it's not a question of Abaddon being misunderstood - whether he was right or wrong about wanting to give out more magic, it's that he attempted to force his will through by violence that got him imprisoned.

To draw ananalogy, if you have a group of people in an argument and one person pulls a knife on the others, in the eyes of the law it doesn't matter if that person was in the right - that's assault, and the knife-puller should face the consequences. Similarly with Abaddon - even if he was right to give out as much magic as he did doesn't mean he was wrongly imprisoned.

Regarding running Arah explorable - I'll be in that if you give me a little time to finish up personal story. I'm looking to get Arah armour on my Mesmer (sans headgear) as it is on top of the lore value...
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#9 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:55 PM

@Baktwerel: The issue with that is two fold:

1) The gods came from the Mists, that is, another world, even in the scrolls' documentation that's where they're coming from.
2) The other lands are just poorly detailed, so that's not really strong evidence one way or another. It just indicates that the Order of Whispers doesn't know the details of the world.


@Drax: I never really claimed that Abaddon was imprisoned because he gave out magic, but rather that the war was started out of a possible misunderstanding due to knowledge Abaddon had, but the others did not.

We're never told who or why the war started outside "Abaddon disagreed with limiting magic" - we know Abaddon attacked the Gate of Heaven, and we know the Scriptures of Abaddon depict him effectively nuking a forgotten armada to save Jadoth (though we don't know why Jadoth was being chased - why send a whole armada after one man?), but both of those could have been retaliation for all we've been told.

The only indication we have for why Abaddon was imprisoned besides "he gave out magic too freely, then warred with the other five gods" is from beta lore on him from a now taken down site which claimed he wanted to start his own nation that he alone governed or some such, but all of that has been given no indication in-game, so it may have been altered. (And given it was a fan-translation from a Taiwanese language site, it might have been wrong since we don't have the original text).

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#10 Baktwerel

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:04 PM

View PostKonig Des Todes, on 27 November 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

@Baktwerel: The issue with that is two fold:

1) The gods came from the Mists, that is, another world, even in the scrolls' documentation that's where they're coming from.
2) The other lands are just poorly detailed, so that's not really strong evidence one way or another. It just indicates that the Order of Whispers doesn't know the details of the world.


Well, do we know that they were born in the Mists -save for Grenth- and never once left it before the first notes of them entering Tyria appeared? They could have been on another continent, but then sh*t happened, they escaped to the Mists and eventually returned to start anew on another continent, slowly forgetting what happened before. Or do we have some sort of an evidence hinting that whatever calamity might happened, occured in the mists?

#11 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:16 PM

Nothing says they were born in the Mists. I merely said they come from the Mists - that is to say, through the Mists (one must travel through the Mists to go from one world/realm to another). We don't know where, when, or how they were born - or where they were prior to coming to the Tyrian world.

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#12 Orual Fox

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:27 PM

Random thought to interject: (to go with the crazy theories)

If the Forgotten *were* responsible for bringing about the Six to Tyria, was it maybe to find a way to pacify the dragons?  Somewhere along the lore talks, it had been said or suggested that once a dragon had *eaten* enough, it went back to sleep (other arguments point to them only going to sleep after being defeated) so maybe the Forgotten saw the Six as big meals of magic and thought, if we can get them here, the dragons will go back to sleep after eating?

Of course, I semi-refute my own theory with the idea that the Forgotten are against the dragons (so it seems) with the rescue of Glint and being one of the races against them in the last rising....but maybe, just maybe, that were looking for anything to defeat the dragons with, perhaps sacrifice?

Crazy, I know.

#13 BuddhaKeks

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:23 PM

If I'm not mistaken the gods only came to Tyria after the dragons went dormant again. I haven't done the Arah explorer mode, so maybe I'm mistaken, but from what I've read the seer path suggests that the human gods did not now about the dragons, that's why they build there holy city in Arah, despite it having a dragon beneath it. Though I have to do it myself to confirm this.

#14 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:01 PM

All current indications are indeed that the Six were arrived on the world after the Elder Dragons went to sleep. However, we were never given explicit details on this, so it's possible that the line of the Six bringing the forgotten is indeed true and that the Six were around during the Elder Dragons' last rise and the claims of the world's state when the Elder Dragons went to sleep were false - but given human history, and the two statements on the world's state when the Elder Dragons went to sleep, it seems unlikely the Six Gods have been on Tyria that long and, from what I've heard (I cannot confirm this first hand), the seer path for Arah explorable indicates the Six did not know of the Elder Dragons, which would mean the Six came after the Elder Dragons went to sleep.

I don't think that the Elder Dragons go to sleep after having consumed enough - what we've been told by Glint is that they went to sleep after they devoured everything they could find - e.g., when they ran out of food. Giving them banquets would only prolong the time they're awake.

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#15 draxynnic

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:30 PM

Which is probably a large part of the reason why the seers made the original proto-bloodstone - take as much magic (ie dragon food) out of the world as possible so the dragons can't find it, while Glint helps keep the remaining races hidden. Dragons can't find food, they eventually go to sleep.

Regarding Abaddon - I do recall mention that he made the first strike of the actual war, by sending his followers to attack and desecrate shrines and temples to the other gods. Again, this is old lore, but the impression I get is that the 'beta lore' from Nightfall is a bit more set in stone than that for Prophecies - through a lot of the development of Prophecies they were still deciding on just what the story would actually be, while for the other campaigns they pretty much had things decided by the time information started coming out.

Now, it's possible there was a misunderstanding behind his motives for giving out magic, but the fact remains that Abaddon's response to being denied was to engage in warfare with the others, not to try to reason with them (he may have tried that initially, but obviously was unsatisfied with the response but too impatient to wait more than a year before resorting to violence). As in my analogy above, if you stab someone because they disagree with you in an argument, it doesn't matter whether you were right - you have to face the consequences.
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#16 4arsie4

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:45 PM

I am inclined to see these as parallels between Abaddon and Prometheus. The past that the 6 gods were fleeing from could very well be a magic-fueled past.

There is magic that is granted by the worship of the gods.

However, the magic that Abaddon gave to humanity is not tied to worship. Humanity now had magic without worshipping the gods. Why he did so is the question. Perhaps as simple as the fact that he wanted to give humans a means to be equals, or he had a desire to weaken the other 5 because he had a strong support of the Margonites.

#17 Razuuli

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:38 AM

I've always suspected Abaddon got a bad rap. Good to know there's more going on than the original known version of history was telling.

#18 draxynnic

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 02:12 AM

Incidentally, another thing that's been rattling around in the back of my mind...

The three tenets of Abaddon are "Act with reason, act with magic, act without mercy". The first two of those are fair enough, but the third does speak of a certain ruthlessness. If he'd carried out that ruthlessness on a regular basis... it's probably not something that would exactly ingratiate him with the gentler side of the pantheon such as Dwayna and Melandru. In fact, putting it out there as one of the tenets of his faith might be a sign that he was already on a downward spiral before jumping off the deep end entirely - Grenth and Balthazar can both be pretty vicious, but I don't recall either of them actively espousing mercilessness.

Which actually makes me wonder if part of the reason Abaddon snapped was because it was a final straw. With what we know of Abaddon and the Margonites, it seems that he agreed with Balthazar that humanity should just seize what they wanted - even to the point of giving his Margonites his blessing to the point of going up against the Forgotten themselves. Information we have on Dhuum also suggests he was overthrown due to his "unjust" treatment of the dead, and in Nightfall we see Dhuum being allied with Abaddon - which we'd previously assumed was an opportunistic alliance, but now that we know Grenth ascended not too long before the Exodus, this might instead have been a continuation/resumption of an old alliance.

So it's possible that, at the time the gods arrived, there was already a bit of a divide between the more merciful side of the pantheon (the goddesses) and the less merciful (Dhuum, Abaddon and possibly Balthazar). Abaddon would have then seen one of his allies torn down and replaced by the son of the leader of the opposite side, and then Balthazar's agreeing with the splitting of the Bloodstones may have been interpreted as a defection that left Abaddon exposed. At that stage, whatever his motivations were for the gift of magic in the first place, he might have decided he was obviously next and to make a preemptive strike to prevent that from occuring.

Given that it then took over a thousand years of imprisonment and several cataclysms before a suitable replacement was found, I'm inclined to say that they probably weren't actually intending to overthrow him then and there. It is possible, though, that the pre-emptive strike was successful in that he managed to kill the godling that was intended to replace him before he was defeated in turn, and the imprisonment may have been a stopgap measure. (In this scenario, in fact, Abaddon may have been pulling a calculated risk - knowing he'd lose the war, but if he removed the intended new receptacle of his power, he may have figured that the other gods would have been forced to leave him be to avoid creating a gap in the pantheon - or at least give him a chance to rally and make another bid when things were more in his favour.)
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#19 Steadfast Gao Shun

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 02:29 AM

Quote

The only indication we have for why Abaddon was imprisoned besides "he gave out magic too freely, then warred with the other five gods" is from beta lore on him from a now taken down site which claimed he wanted to start his own nation that he alone governed or some such, but all of that has been given no indication in-game, so it may have been altered. (And given it was a fan-translation from a Taiwanese language site, it might have been wrong since we don't have the original text).


Perks of being able to read multiple languages: I managed to track down that source.  The poster is someone who goes by the moniker of 滄海月明 who apparently had some beta-information. Take it with a grain of salt. While the source is sourced to Bahamut's GW section, a large Chinese gaming site, it appears that the site has been taken down as of today as well.

Translation from myself basically states that there were people once living in the Crystal Sea. It is stated that the only one they worshipped was Abaddon, and that Abaddon's sins go beyond gifting magic to humanity. The term used, when applied to translation, was explicitly "all of the intelligent races." It is stated in his source that the Six created magic, and that as a part of that creation, they gifted it to all the intelligent races - four such races (Human, Charr, Tengu, and Dwarves) are explicitly named - of the world. According to this source, humans first appeared in southern Cantha, populating the Jade Sea (well, what's now the Jade sea) and the Echovald forests before slowly becoming a civilization. (In other words, Luxons and Kurzicks came way before everyone else, and apparently they knew of the Six even back then.)

The statement of the gods creating the bloodstones was due to the pleading of king Doric. This we know already. What's interesting is that the prompt to war is explicitly mentioned that the other Five were afraid of Abaddon (for reasons unknown), and created/split the bloodstones (this source states plural, take that as you will) explicitly to stop him. In fury, Abaddon's worshippers began defacing the temples, leading to the Forgotten initiating the first strike. there was a great naval battle against the Forgotten, in which the humans lost steadily. The multiple uses of terms such as "alliances" as well as the plurality suggests that there were more than a tribe of humans who was on the side of Abaddon at the time.

Cue Jadoth, who was described as the king (ruler) of one of the human nations. The part about him becoming the first Margonite is the same as ours in the wiki, and then Abaddon launches his attack on the Five with his new race of servants.

Literally, the Mouth of Torment was a crack in reality in which the Five determined that it was the weakest link between the Realm of Torment and the physical world of Tyria. In goes Abaddon. The Forgotten destroys all of the Monoliths or deface them to the point of nothingness, and Abaddon is erased from history.

EDIT: brb pilfering more information from Chinese "Durman Priory."

Edited by Steadfast Gao Shun, 28 November 2012 - 02:50 AM.


#20 I'm Squirrel

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 02:52 AM

Abaddon reminds me of the story of how Lucifer became the Devil.

He really wasn't the "bad" guy they made him out to be, and though he opposed the other Gods' laws and commands, he probably cared about the races of Tyria the most and tried to help them in wars by distributing magic throughout the weaker races(or distributed equally) as a means of protecting a race from extinction.

#21 The Trouble With Me

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 02:55 AM

View PostOmega X, on 27 November 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

I'm confused.

If it was known that humans were in Cantha before Orr, how did Dwayna bring them to Tyria? From what I read above, The Six brought humans to Arah. But somehow, humans were already on Cantha?

Did I read that wrong?

This is what's troubling me; either the cantha fact is in the process of being ret-conned and humans did come from a different world altogether or the Orrian history is in part a piece of propaganda (though as the source suggests the gods may have made them truly believe it).

On a side note "For a while she lived, veiled and hidden, in the village of Wren. When the building of Arah was completed Lyssa was commanded to join the other gods, though her tears fell like rain among the western road." is a really nice touch =]

#22 Steadfast Gao Shun

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 02:59 AM

View PostI, on 28 November 2012 - 02:52 AM, said:

Abaddon reminds me of the story of how Lucifer became the Devil.

He really wasn't the "bad" guy they made him out to be, and though he opposed the other Gods' laws and commands, he probably cared about the races of Tyria the most and tried to help them in wars by distributing magic throughout the weaker races(or distributed equally) as a means of protecting a race from extinction.

Abaddon's distribution of magic was basically, in all sources, extremely reckless. He wasn't interested in protecting these races from extinction as much as he was interested in seeing what could happen, and, as the god of magic, the more destructive magic was being used, the more worshipers he would presumably get.

The whole reason why Doric went up to the others was basically he basically went  "yo, guys, can you like stop this magic from killing ALL OF US?" and the Five was like "k." Of course, the source that lists Doric was a human source, so take that as you will. ;)

Edited by Steadfast Gao Shun, 28 November 2012 - 03:02 AM.


#23 Dasryn

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 03:35 AM

so. ..  are you pretty much saying that Abaddon didnt start out evil at all, and that he gave magic to humanity because he felt like that was a good way to prevent whatever ailment caused them to flee their previous world?

and that the other gods disagreed/misunderstood this and ordered his imprisonment/punishment?

there's gotta be more to it.  if it was amisunderstanding, all Abaddon had to do was tell the other gods what he knew and be done with it.

why would you hold on to a secret all stubbornly and ish when facing beast mode imprisonment?

View PostI, on 28 November 2012 - 02:52 AM, said:

Abaddon reminds me of the story of how Lucifer became the Devil.

He really wasn't the "bad" guy they made him out to be, and though he opposed the other Gods' laws and commands, he probably cared about the races of Tyria the most and tried to help them in wars by distributing magic throughout the weaker races(or distributed equally) as a means of protecting a race from extinction.

trust me, Lucifer was evil.  not just "made out to be".  but more on topic, what i garnered was that he gave out the magic in order to prevent whatever had befallen their forsaken world.  

idk, i think the 6 gods have an important role to play in future stories, and that they didnt not flee, or forsake humanity.  they are gone for a reason, and they will come back when it is time.

#24 draxynnic

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 03:40 AM

Well, previous information, including interviews during GW2 development, indicates that humans first arrived on the world of Tyria south of Cantha, then moved up through Cantha and on further north. There are a couple of resolutions to this:

1) Orr was the first place on Tyria-the-continent that humans set foot, but not the first place on Tyria-the-world.

2) Humans were initially brought to Arah from wherever they came from, but at the time for whatever reason the gods weren't ready for humans to live in Tyria-the-continent, so they were sent south (from which they steadily moved back north).

3) Some humans were brought to Arah, but the majority were sent to their original Tyrian homeland south of Cantha.

I'm kinda inclined to think it might be the latter two - while the gods didn't create Tyria, it's implied they made some significant changes, most likely towards making it more suitable to humans. It's likely that when the gods and humans first arrived, Tyria wasn't suitable for the whole population, so the gods found somewhere that was for humans to reside until they were ready.
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#25 Flaming_Foxx

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:58 AM

Random thoughts:
It all ends up sounding to me a little bit as if the gods are remnants of another race, they're all thats left and they fled through the mists to some place where they could start again and leave behind whatever horrible things happened in the past. Attempting to tie up loose ends with that - is it possible that Dwayna came to Tyria pregnant and then gave birth to Grenth? If his father had some involvement in the gods reason for fleeing to Tyria that might explain his scroll a little bit?

Linking that to Abaddon - if he placed high importance on knowledge then that might provide justification for him feeling that the races of Tyria should be entitled to all knowledge of magic, rather than restricted in it's use (you could argue that to not fully understand all aspects of something can be dangerous, so to him it would be important to understand all aspects of magic, rather than just one).

But in any case, thats all rather farfetched.

#26 Kid

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:25 AM

View PostFlaming_Foxx, on 28 November 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

Random thoughts:
It all ends up sounding to me a little bit as if the gods are remnants of another race, they're all thats left and they fled through the mists to some place where they could start again and leave behind whatever horrible things happened in the past. Attempting to tie up loose ends with that - is it possible that Dwayna came to Tyria pregnant and then gave birth to Grenth? If his father had some involvement in the gods reason for fleeing to Tyria that might explain his scroll a little bit?


The problem is the seventh reaper (Cathedral of Silence mission) stated that Grenth was a son of a mortal sculptor (implied to be Malchor) and Dwayna and was the first god born in Tyria.

As for Abaddon, I do not feel he is relatable to the light bearer. He seems to be more akin to Prometheus for bringing fire to humanity(other races in Tyria for this case) and got shafted for it.

Edited by Kid, 28 November 2012 - 12:53 PM.


#27 Dainjah

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:41 PM

Could it be possible that the calamity/apocalyptic event they are fleeing from (if indeed that is exactly what was going on) was CAUSED by magic being freely available to all, they realised this was the cause of said problem, they fled to a new place to begin again, only for abbadon to then redistribute the magic all over the place, making it highly likely to happen again? As for him imprisonment, maybe it was just a conflict of interests, all of the 'named' gods wanted idyllic existances, constrained to THEIR ideas of peace and tranquility where abbadon was seen as chaotic for wanting thiings to pan out evenly, with everyone on an even playing field, hence having doled out magic 'willy-nilly' without caring for the eventual consequences? Just a thought that occurd to me hilst reading this so thought I'd post.

*EDIT - Adding more*

And the part about Lyssa being veiled and helping them forget the past, could this possibly be a hint towards maybe SHE is the dodgy/evil one here, hiding and manipulating this from the shadows, maybe even the reason she wants them to forget the previous events are because she somehow instigated them, causing it to look like Abbadons fault but upon it going awry, blanking it from the others memory to stop the risk of it being discovered she had something to do with it. (Conspiracy head removed).

Edited by Dainjah, 28 November 2012 - 01:52 PM.


#28 MesmersFromHouseElara

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:24 PM

I'm a fan of mythologies from all over the globe and, naturally, am interested in the human GW2 pantheon a great deal.  I like hearing the old lore and new guesses explaining loose ends and this thread is one such that i'll be interested in following.  Now, if I can get a "Lyssa is the most awesome being in the GW2 universe and here's why" thread, i'll be a happy Lyssa fanatic.

#29 Flaming_Foxx

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:40 PM

View PostKid, on 28 November 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

The problem is the seventh reaper (Cathedral of Silence mission) stated that Grenth was a son of a mortal sculptor (implied to be Malchor) and Dwayna and was the first god born in Tyria.

As for Abaddon, I do not feel he is relatable to the light bearer. He seems to be more akin to Prometheus for bringing fire to humanity(other races in Tyria for this case) and got shafted for it.

Yes, my idea incorporated him being the first god born in Tyria... I simply suggested that he could have been CONCEIVED elsewhere. E.g. His father was from the time before the Gods passed through the mists - however if it is explicitly implied that Malchor was his father then obviously that's the answer to that xD -Although I don't like that as an answer, makes it feel lame :( -

#30 MesmersFromHouseElara

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:49 PM

It was never said Malchor was the father,  just "a mortal sculptor".  Also, I think people get hung up on the term mortal, it doesn't mean human, it just means it can die.  And, using Abaddon as an example, the gods could be called mortal. Finally, the term sculptor could be shaped into a broad term as well.




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