74 replies to this topic

[Orual Fox]

MesmersFromHouseElara, on 28 November 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

Finally, the term sculptor could be shaped into a broad term as well....

I see what you did there.....

Wasn't there a discussion not too long ago, about the whole "is Malchor the father" and especially the quote about how Grenth would succeed where his father failed, or something like that.  

My only problem with Malchor even possibly being the father of Grenth, is that Malchor was requested by the Six to do the sculpting, and Grenth would have been one of these, correct?  So did Grenth just get born "at the appropriate age of a god" or was there really just a long weird time between the relationship between Malchor/Dwayna and the birth of Grenth?

I don't really question the possibility of him being conceived by Malchor, we see similar love relationships like that in Greek myth where affairs happen in darkness/mystery "cant see the lover" (thinking Cupid/Pysche).  But I find it strange that, he would have this relationship with Dwanya, then "unknown time passage" be asked to do the sculpting.  

/end off topic  \on topic

Honestly I see a great possibility (though it may never happen) in the FoTM dungeon, since the Gods traveled through the Mists to get here, wouldn't we be able to travel "back" and re-discover the forgotten past of the Gods?

[Flaming_Foxx]

MesmersFromHouseElara, on 28 November 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

It was never said Malchor was the father,  just "a mortal sculptor".  Also, I think people get hung up on the term mortal, it doesn't mean human, it just means it can die.  And, using Abaddon as an example, the gods could be called mortal. Finally, the term sculptor could be shaped into a broad term as well.

If we wanted to get really antsy about it it is very easy to point out that "a mortal sculptor" could also be someone who sculpts mortals - as in a god. But that would be syntactically very odd (not unlike this sentence).
I definitely agree with you, but it -seems- that in saying a mortal sculptor and then having a directly named sculptor of the statues of the gods in lore the two match up.

[draxynnic]

Another possibility I've raised before is that being a goddess, Dwayna may not have conceived Grenth in the normal way - she could, for instance, have created Grenth by creating a being that had a mix of her and Malchor's characteristics without Malchor's physical contact or even knowledge.

[I've got your kisses]

This has been an interested read. I've met Jeff Grubb a few times and talked to him a little bit about how he builds stories and lore. This stuff sounds right up his alley.


Somewhat off topic:
Back in GW1 I used to run around Lion's Arch/Kryta and look at all the ancient ruined cities that clung to the jungle hillsides. Were those structures built by these Forgotten people?

[Mockingjay74]

Steadfast Gao Shun, on 27 November 2012 - 03:37 AM, said:

(Ok. I propose that we run Arah explorable in-game. Just a bunch of us lore-bugs. I will provide all the coinage for repairs if we can find out more.)

Sorry for being late to the party here (I read this and didn't have time to post and I was super sad!)... but depending on if we could figure out server stuff I would be all over running it with a notebook next to me. I can help with repairs, too!

Omega X, on 27 November 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

I'm confused.

If it was known that humans were in Cantha before Orr, how did Dwayna bring them to Tyria? From what I read above, The Six brought humans to Arah. But somehow, humans were already on Cantha?

Did I read that wrong?

Also, its a nice theory. I never did dive deep enough into the reasoning behind bringing humans to Tyria or even why they cut off all ties with Tyria now. It can't be fear of the Dragons if mere mortals can take them down. Hopefully ArenaNET will elaborate on the why and how in the future.

I think that one thing that hasn't really been brought up in a lot of conversations about the "origins of humanity" is the other races that were already on the planet. The scrolls linked to in the OP even point out that there were non-human races on Tyria when humans were dropped off by the Six. Personally, I feel like the six gods only brought Tyrian (continental) humans to continental Tyria. Unless there's something that specifically states that all humans came from the same place, I find it unlikely that humans didn't have multiple "hearths" so to speak. Flashing back out to the real world, humanity technically had one? main hearth. [Fair warning, I'm reaching back to AP Human Geography that I took/hated last year...]. From there, humanity spread to other locations, which turned into more hearths. Assuming Tyrian (world) humanity started off on the planet somewhere, it's possible that the Jade Sea locations and Arah locations are simply that one-step (or multiple) steps away from the main hearth.

MesmersFromHouseElara, on 28 November 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

It was never said Malchor was the father,  just "a mortal sculptor".  Also, I think people get hung up on the term mortal, it doesn't mean human, it just means it can die.  And, using Abaddon as an example, the gods could be called mortal. Finally, the term sculptor could be shaped into a broad term as well.

There are quite a few things that heavily suggest that Malchor is Grenth's father - to the extent that I personally doubt that anyone else is really a possibility. Malchor is the only sculptor to sculpt the gods, that I (we?) know of, and that has seen them in person and physically touched Dwayna. Not to mention that there are other tidbits that contribute to the theory. First, Malchor was completely obsessed with Dwayna (as has been pointed out on the thread dedicated to this a while ago) to the point that he killed himself because he could no longer see her. Second, Dwayna herself seemed to have some sort of feelings for Malchor. Whether they were pity or genuine affection is another story, but crying and letting a mere mortal touch her face... yeah. Third, if you look at the locations brought up in the scrolls, there are some interesting overlaps and bits that don't fit together. The main thing that doesn't fit for me is that the gods called Malchor to them to sculpt (under the "Tragedy of Malchor" story) them, but then they returned to Arah as if they weren't already there? That's just an inconsistency but a weird one. Otherwise, Malchor threw himself off a cliff near Dwayna's cathedral. There was definitely some sort of spark or such an absence of a spark that it drove him crazy.

Interesting thing I just noticed: Grenth is the god of death (lord?), and his probable father is, well, dead.

[MesmersFromHouseElara]

Mockingjay74, on 28 November 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

There are quite a few things that heavily suggest that Malchor is Grenth's father - to the extent that I personally doubt that anyone else is really a possibility. Malchor is the only sculptor to sculpt the gods, that I (we?) know of, and that has seen them in person and physically touched Dwayna. Not to mention that there are other tidbits that contribute to the theory. First, Malchor was completely obsessed with Dwayna (as has been pointed out on the thread dedicated to this a while ago) to the point that he killed himself because he could no longer see her. Second, Dwayna herself seemed to have some sort of feelings for Malchor. Whether they were pity or genuine affection is another story, but crying and letting a mere mortal touch her face... yeah.

It's true Malchor is the only sculptor we're told about, however, we're also told that Dwayna was sculpted last, which means the touch of her face was the last thing to occur in the process of sculpting the gods.  The reason I mention this is simply because this means he'd already sculpted Grenth before the moment (touching Dwayna's face) people relate to Grenth's conception via Malchor.

This is off topic but I just can't help but add; I wonder what Grenth was prior to defeating Dhuum.  Did Grenth perform a Kormir-esque ritual and absorb a large portion of his current powers?  Was he "born" with natural demi godlike powers of death?  I'm aware we can't answer these questions but it's food for thought.

Edited by MesmersFromHouseElara, 28 November 2012 - 10:59 PM.

[draxynnic]

Actually, while I don't recall the source off the top of my head, there is an indication somewhere (I think it's in one of the books you can read in the game) that he was the Prince of Ice and Sorrow before casting down Dhuum - implying that his association with cold goes back before then and in general he had some divine power, but not necessarily over death. From that, I'd be inclined to think he was a demigod to begin with (possibly on similar status to Menzies, but not evil) and on Dhuum's defeat he claimed death for his portfolio and achieved full divine status.

EDIT: Okay, that particular title was from the Orrian History Scrolls, and could be after his ascension. I think there is an indication that he had power over cold pre-ascension somewhere, though - it might be one of the books in the Priory archives. If it is, I've probably got a screenshot of it when I get home.

Edited by draxynnic, 28 November 2012 - 11:42 PM.

[Konig Des Todes]

draxynnic, on 27 November 2012 - 11:30 PM, said:

Regarding Abaddon - I do recall mention that he made the first strike of the actual war, by sending his followers to attack and desecrate shrines and temples to the other gods.

While it was indeed said the Margonites unprovokingly descicrated the Temple of the Six, nothing indicates that Abaddon ordered such.

Under such thoughts that this descicration initiated the war, then the war was begun by the Margonites, and Abaddon reacted in defense when the gods (or at least their servants) attacked the Margonites.

And actually, that makes sense, especially if that's why the forgotten armada was chasing down Jadoth.

draxynnic, on 28 November 2012 - 02:12 AM, said:

Grenth and Balthazar can both be pretty vicious, but I don't recall either of them actively espousing mercilessness.

Though Grenth does represent destruction and inevitable end (just like Dhuum, apparently, according to Malchor - which makes me think the inscription on the Statue of Grenth in Divinity's Reach was originally talking about Dhuum), and Balthazar was known for ruthlessness, anger issues, and wanting eternal war (the last coming from an NPC in the Fissure of Woe stating that there will always be war in that realm).

Acting without mercy isn't that cold or vicious either. It merely means to act without hesitation - this doesn't mean to be ruthless, it just means to be firm in what you do. If you're going to chuck a ball through a window, do it without mercy - e.g., just chuck that ball! If you're going to defend a rapist in court as said rapist's lawyer, do it without mercy - e.g., consequences be damned, get that guy free.

That's how I take that line of Abaddon's at least. Not "kill all your foes" like one would initially suspect, but "do not hesitate in your action" - and that flows a lot more with the rest of his motto.

Steadfast Gao Shun, on 28 November 2012 - 02:29 AM, said:

-snip-

Interesting. The source we've had has been here, which doesn't mention Luxons or Kurzicks (btw, the Jade Sea was called such before it was solidified too).

Forgotten initiating the first strike sounds funny considering I made that postulation just now before reading your post.

Can you provide a direct translation of this information rather than a summary? Would be peculiar to read, though due to its source I'd consider it as canon as Arachnia or the Redeemed Realm (same with the link I just provided that is a fan translation of NCsoft's former Taiwanese site).

MesmersFromHouseElara, on 28 November 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

It was never said Malchor was the father,  just "a mortal sculptor".  Also, I think people get hung up on the term mortal, it doesn't mean human, it just means it can die.  And, using Abaddon as an example, the gods could be called mortal. Finally, the term sculptor could be shaped into a broad term as well.

Well, although by dictionary standards immortal means "cannot die" in fictional works it is used to describe something that doesn't age. E.g., the greek gods were called immortal, but they could be killed - however, they would never die of old age. Like the human pantheon in GW, if left alone, they will live forever. But they can be killed still.

It's a grossly overused misuse of the term, but that's how it is.

Orual Fox, on 28 November 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

Wasn't there a discussion not too long ago, about the whole "is Malchor the father" and especially the quote about how Grenth would succeed where his father failed, or something like that.

Where his father fell was the terms used.

Which can mean a lot of things, considering the scrolls were written in prose.

Orual Fox, on 28 November 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

My only problem with Malchor even possibly being the father of Grenth, is that Malchor was requested by the Six to do the sculpting, and Grenth would have been one of these, correct?  So did Grenth just get born "at the appropriate age of a god" or was there really just a long weird time between the relationship between Malchor/Dwayna and the birth of Grenth?

Well, Dwayna was the first god that Malchor met, though the last that he sculpted. No timeframe was given for how long it took for Malchor to sculpt each god, and given the Orrian History Scrolls, the feelings Malchor had for Dwayna, she had for him. Particularly:

When it was done, he asked Dwayna if she favored the image, and weeping, Dwayna allowed him to touch her face, that he might know the precision with which—even blind—he had carved her image. But then, as she knew she must, the goddess Dwayna left and returned to Arah, leaving the sculptor alone.

This line particularly makes it sound to me like Dwayna didn't want to leave, and her reaction to how Malchor sculpted her tells me there were feelings to the sculptor himself particularly.

And then there's the bit I implied above, that the inscription of Malchor on the statue of Grenth sounds more like it's meant for Dhuum than Grenth:

"Grenth I feared the most, for in gazing upon him I saw my own end. But Grenth also embodies inevitability, the idea that all things have a time...and that time must inevitably pass." —Malchor

Given the Six Gods' love for altering history, and human history's rate of being wrong, it's possible that Malchor sculpted Dhuum and not Grenth.

Flaming_Foxx, on 28 November 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

If we wanted to get really antsy about it it is very easy to point out that "a mortal sculptor" could also be someone who sculpts mortals - as in a god. But that would be syntactically very odd (not unlike this sentence).

Though Grenth is explicitly stated to be half-god in the same sentence he's said to be the son of a mortal sculptor. So that's not it.

I, on 28 November 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

Back in GW1 I used to run around Lion's Arch/Kryta and look at all the ancient ruined cities that clung to the jungle hillsides. Were those structures built by these Forgotten people?

If you're referring to those large towers, then no, those be Krytan.

Mockingjay74, on 28 November 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

Third, if you look at the locations brought up in the scrolls, there are some interesting overlaps and bits that don't fit together. The main thing that doesn't fit for me is that the gods called Malchor to them to sculpt (under the "Tragedy of Malchor" story) them, but then they returned to Arah as if they weren't already there? That's just an inconsistency but a weird one.

I think it's an unstated implication that the gods, not allowing humans to enter Arah, went out to meet Malchor.

We know for a fact that both Dwayna and Lyssa can hide their divinity and aura and appearing completely human per Lyssa scripture and Karei, and we know Balthazar played a boardgame with a human, so it's possible that he did the same (then again, he played this game with a ritualist). So it's not unlikely that the gods disguised themselves to meet with Malchor, rather than bringing Malchor into Arah.

MesmersFromHouseElara, on 28 November 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

This is off topic but I just can't help but add; I wonder what Grenth was prior to defeating Dhuum.  Did Grenth perform a Kormir-esque ritual and absorb a large portion of his current powers?  Was he "born" with natural demi godlike powers of death?

He was a half-god, per Priestess Rhie (the one who told us that his father was a mortal sculptor). He already represented mortality, and was called the prince of ice and sorrow.

What's interesting to note is that nothing but Memory of Dhuum's Last Stand indicates that Grenth absorbed any power, and even that doesn't specify Grenth absorbing Dhuum's power.

So he very well may still be a half-god, considering the Orrian History Scrolls says that he had to prove himself to join the other gods (seemed he wasn't allowed to live in Arah/be with the gods despite being Dwayna's son?), rather than Grenth having become one.

[draxynnic]

Your definition of acting without mercy does not match the dictionary definition, which comes closer to equating mercy with compassion than with hesitation. Yes, the examples you give are all acting without mercy - but that's because they all involve negative consequences for somebody (the person who owns the window you chucked a ball through, the rapist's victim whom the lawyer has probably made relive a traumatic experience and then done their best to defame them to the jury). You don't talk about someone who unhesitantly, say, gives to charity as acting without mercy, after all. If your interpretation was truly what was intended, there are better ways to have phrased it - 'act with resolve', for instance.

Grenth represents death, yes, but it's a common trope that death can be a mercy. Balthazar's tenets occasionally do step into "do what I say, not what I do" territory, but he does encourage his followers to be honourable, and part of being honourable in battle is showing mercy to defeated foes... even if he personally lets his anger get out of hand on occasion. Neither actively encourages mercilessness.

When it comes to "nothing indicates Abaddon ordered such"... whis is where we're crippled with the original documents being lost, because I'm pretty certain that one of the articles from back then clearly said he did. Furthermore, even if he didn't explicitly order it, I doubt he couldn't have stopped it if he wanted to.

On Grenth still being a half-god - I do get the impression on occasion that Grenth and Lyssa are essentially 'second-rate' deities behind Dwayna, Balthazar and Melandru. This might just be a question of where human worshippers put their focus (it's interesting to compare the sizes of the cathedrals of Lyssa and Dwayna in Malchor's Leap, for instance), but it would make sense if they were lessers in power - Lyssa due to being split between Lyss and Ilya, and Grenth because he hasn't been able to actually absorb Dhuum's power, instead just imprisoning him and claiming his realm.

Edited by draxynnic, 29 November 2012 - 01:46 AM.

[Steadfast Gao Shun]

Recovered from multiple sources of Traditional/Simplified Chinese websites. Translated by yours truly. It appears that these were once a part of something on Nightfall lore, but many of it end up on popular MMO forums (because they're really good at plagerizing from each other.) Given how frequent it is copypasted, I would still take it with a grain of salt, and I personally would consider this to be secondary "canon."

Credit goes to the "Durman Priory", which appears to be a group of Chinese GW lore fans, who managed to archive much of this information using a Baidu community that is sadly off limit to us westerners (unless you know your way in. )

Quote

Prior to his fall, Abaddon was the chief deity of water and wisdom. It is said that while his heart was still just and fair, he was a handsome, calm figure with imposing blue eyes - deep, like the colors of the sea. His generosity was only matched by his namesake, the ocean, which was both his dominion and said to be the physical manifestation of his blue wings. Princely amongst the gods, he was recognized as being the wisest amidst the Six, and his insight was not only welcome, but was also the most highly valued when the gods held council.

Few would recognize Abaddon as he is now. His eyes - once as deeply bright as the seas - were replaced by sunken, abyssal shadows. His wings lost their lustre and became scythe-like, bloodied and battered. It is said that Abaddon's appearance is a direct representation of his heart. If that is true, then he must have fallen far.

Abaddon's fall was not overnight, but the evil that was budding in his heart had many long years to simmer. For thousands of years, he always acted as a bridge between the Realm of the Gods [Translator's note: 神界 is a literal translation, which literally means "Realm of the Gods" or "World of the Gods". I want to make the call that this is the Mists, but I don't think I can do that) and Tyria. When the gods decided to gift magic to the world, it was Abaddon who rose up to the task. Spreading the light of wisdom to all the races, he gave freely the gift of magic - the natural ability to manipulate this force - to those races he deemed to possess both the capacity of thought as well as hidden potentials. Unfortunately, Abaddon was clearly overly generous, and too many of the races received his attention. Rapidly, these civilizations rose to prominence and became enamored with their mysterious benefactor, with many exclusively worshiping him. The Five, however, felt both neglected and disrespected. They were both concerned with their own plight as well as the nature of the world - Abaddon was becoming increasingly reckless and could endanger the world. To solve this issue, they created a Stone of Blood [Translator's note: That's their term for Blood stone], which split the powers governed by Abaddon into four parts, in turn weakening the strength of the intelligent races so that they may no longer drive each other to extinction. Abaddon was furious, and protested strongly to his brothers and sisters, but his pleas were ignored. His fury would eventually blind those once far-seeing eyes, and making him lose the logic in which he valued so highly.

One particular tribe of humans lived exclusively on the high seas. The waters in which they sailed are now known as the Crystal Desert - known as the Crystal Sea at the time. During that time, it was a beautiful and bountiful place, nested between Tyria and Elona. The people there worshipped Abaddon exclusively, and upon hearing the news, they launched an attack on the "High Temples of the Six Gods" [Translator's note: reference unclear], a great place of worship on the northern shores of Elona. They slaughtered the priests of the Five, desecrated the altars, and defaced the statues and scriptures within that holy place. While the Five were understandably furious, it was their mortal followers - the Forgotten - whose anger burned the brightest. A mighty legion was gathered - the likes which were not seen before - to quell Abaddon's insolent followers, and what followed was the largest naval battle ever seen in human history.

The crude magics and technology of humanity was no match for that of the Forgotten, and their great armada was soon annihilated. The leader of one such tribe, Jadoth, has been drifting for fifty-one days when he fearfully noticed Forgotten ships appearing on the horizon. Desperately, he prayed to Abaddon for deliverance. Abaddon was silent for a long period of time. When he answered, however, the answer was clear. The waters beneath the Forgotten fleet began to bubble as large whirlpools formed. The sky - when it should be filled with dawnlight - was torn apart by abyssal colored tempests, and a fearsome devouring darkness appeared from beneath the forgotten fleet.

No living being emerged from the endless darkness that came from beneath the waters, except for one. Jadoth. He became the first champion of Abaddon, and with him came the first of the Margonites. Hate and anger had overcame Abaddon completely, and with a vengeful declaration, war, once again, was declared upon the Gods.

Abaddon was the mightiest of the gods, and for a while, the war went in his favor. In the end, however, he was no match for the combined strength of all the Five. At what is now known as the Mouth of Torment, the Five broke an entrance to that which is now known as the Mouth of Torment. Unwilling (note: this can be translated to both unable or unwilling, but I'm taking context into consideration) to destroy their brethren, Abaddon was imprisoned. At the same time, the Margonites were delivered a catastrophic stroke, and only a small fraction of them ended up becoming trapped alongside their masters.

A powerful force of Forgotten was sent to safeguard Abaddon's prison. Perhaps the Five had hoped that given time, Abaddon would come to his senses. They thought wrong. Hidden in the depths of the Domain of Anguish, Abaddon slowly recovered his strength, plotting to take his vengeance to the world. Somewhere, deep in the darkness, the god of pain and plagues lurk still, waiting for the opportunity to rend devastation upon the world.

Edited by Steadfast Gao Shun, 29 November 2012 - 08:34 AM.

[Flaming_Foxx]

So that was supposedly an official lore document? Or was it something that they had compiled?
It all sounds pretty consistent with what we do know and it's nice to have some proper chunk of lore to read again. -flashbacks to the prophecies manuals-.

[Critus]

Its funny i just ran into the statues in Orr that has the text a few hours ago

[Steadfast Gao Shun]

The style of the writing appears very official, mainly because all the names are localized in Mandarin. I know for a fact that both the Chinese and the Japanese fans actually prefer to use English names when possible (though I still cringe half the time when I read their posts). This makes me think (and based on the frequency of how often this is copy-pasted across fansites) that it might be an official document, or at least something used to generate hype, since it usually appears alongside a bunch of Nightfall stuff.

[Flaming_Foxx]

From the NF manual:
"Empowered by the blessings of their dark deity, the Margonites waged war against the followers of all other gods—smashing temples, desecrating shrines, and butchering all rivals. Despite the power granted by horrific transformations, their army was annihilated, their false god exiled to a realm of torment."

Why the kitten does it refer to Abaddon as a "false god" O_o?

[draxynnic]

That's ringing bells to me loud and clear - translation errors aside, I'm pretty sure that's a faithful reproduction of the original.

The "High Temples of the Six Gods" is actually the Temple of the Six Gods, which was originally on the shores of the Crystal Sea and ended up in the Realm of Torment along with Abaddon - it's the focus of the Gate of Madness mission.

Regarding the Margonite entry - referring to Abaddon as 'false' might come from the practise of describing someone who's treacherous as 'false'.

Edited by draxynnic, 29 November 2012 - 05:15 AM.

[Steadfast Gao Shun]

Chinese by itself is a difficult language to translate to and from English, and whoever localized the text intentionally imitated our style of narrative. A great deal of the scripture of the gods, for instance, were expanded into short stories and combined into profiles for each of the gods to serve as background lore. What I got from reading them was that - likely the intended effects of the advertisement-like writing - they are meant to provide very concrete personas for Chinese players to understand.

For me, what I got out from that passage was that Abaddon was portrayed in a very sympathetic manner, which would no doubt suiting a lot of player's tastes. Though I personally couldn't find anything that is inconsistent to what we know so far.

Bear in mind, too, that there may have been culture-specific translation "errors". For example, the skeletons of dhuum are known as the "dead-wraith", even though the player base refers to them as skeletons. Nothing is said of Abaddon's corrupting influence, even though that is what happened to the Crystal Desert after his war. It's also worth mentioning that only communities still active are web forums that are based in Hong Kong or Taiwan - virtually nothing comes from the mainland itself.

Edited by Steadfast Gao Shun, 29 November 2012 - 05:57 AM.

[Konig Des Todes]

draxynnic, on 29 November 2012 - 01:42 AM, said:

Your definition of acting without mercy does not match the dictionary definition, which comes closer to equating mercy with compassion than with hesitation. Yes, the examples you give are all acting without mercy - but that's because they all involve negative consequences for somebody (the person who owns the window you chucked a ball through, the rapist's victim whom the lawyer has probably made relive a traumatic experience and then done their best to defame them to the jury). You don't talk about someone who unhesitantly, say, gives to charity as acting without mercy, after all. If your interpretation was truly what was intended, there are better ways to have phrased it - 'act with resolve', for instance.

Fair point, though I was thinking more of in the lines of "even if your actions may harm others, do not hesitate in them" rather than "act cruelly."

Kind of a pep talk for when faced with a situation of "good of the many or needs of the few" and like minded scenarios - or any kind of scenario where you have to cause harm. I mean, even heroes will be causing harm to the villains, so it only gives them (the villains) a chance to cause more pain if the hero acts with mercy. Usually a plot device in such tv shows and comics to keep the story going.

But maybe I'm just too influenced by such stories that I naturally think of the line in such a manner.

Flaming_Foxx, on 29 November 2012 - 03:37 AM, said:

So that was supposedly an official lore document? Or was it something that they had compiled?

This is the main question - and if it's an official lore document, which it seems it is, since the original was removed, is it still considered canon?

That document is interesting. Gives a brand new depiction to Abaddon pre-fall. One I'm not thinking kept to him, truth be told (blue wings?), but it doesn't seem to be contradicted (sans his appearance, as I doubt his eyes in GW1 are "sunken, abyssal shadows" nor does he have wings in either concept art nor in game).

But where's that mention of Cantha?

[Steadfast Gao Shun]

Quote

But where's that mention of Cantha?

That's part of a separate document which lists the rise of humanity (Some of it looks like translations of our stuff, but other parts of it look like something that might've been regional specific). The problem with Canthan documents from Chinese sources is I'm still trying to figure out which one to use. The one that I have that is more complete is a source from mainland China, but it also seems to have been heavily edited/censored (they have something against what is interpreted as "dissentful influences" or some such, so a lot of the lore was gutted). Trying to piece what I can from Hong Kong/Taiwanese sites is harder than I had thought, and I wish it was four years ago where I had a lot more free time.

I'll point out that a lot of Chinese players are rather annoyed at the depiction of Cantha as a "shantytown" and "slums." Judging from the community, Factions wasn't very well received, and there's always nationalistic tension on those forums.

Edited by Steadfast Gao Shun, 29 November 2012 - 05:51 AM.

[draxynnic]

One of the concept artworks of Abaddon does have his back covered with scythelike protrusions, actually, and they do look somewhat like they could have been parts of wings once.

Incidentally, one other thing that caught my eye on a reread was the mention of Abaddon's outward appearance being a reflection of his heart... if that's true, I wonder if it's a common property of the gods?

[Flaming_Foxx]

draxynnic, on 29 November 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

One of the concept artworks of Abaddon does have his back covered with scythelike protrusions, actually, and they do look somewhat like they could have been parts of wings once.

Incidentally, one other thing that caught my eye on a reread was the mention of Abaddon's outward appearance being a reflection of his heart... if that's true, I wonder if it's a common property of the gods?

I would be inclined to agree with that, because I can sort of see how it works with the other gods. But I don't think Grenth is dead inside <3

Also, as pointed out on the GW wiki, in the dat file it's suggested that Abaddons body was actually destroyed before ended up fighting him, so he could very well have looked as if he had wings once? (of course .dat = not necessarily canon, but still, pretty good indication)

Edited by Flaming_Foxx, 29 November 2012 - 08:53 AM.

[MesmersFromHouseElara]

Steadfast Gao Shun, on 29 November 2012 - 03:25 AM, said:

snip

What I found interesting, or the most interesting I should say, was the line "...war, once again, was declared upon the Gods." This implies (obviously) the Gods had fought or were the focus of a previous war, but what war could that be?  Are we told about any other war of the Gods prior to Abaddon's dessention?  This, to me (after reading that other thread of Konig), sounds like a possible reason the Gods fled...well, wherever they're from.

[BuddhaKeks]

Steadfast Gao Shun, on 29 November 2012 - 03:25 AM, said:

*snip*

First of thanks for the great translation. As I'm currently translating a longer story myself, I know how time consuming it can be. Especially from chinese to english.

For the wings: That means atleast 3 gods have wings, Dwayna, Melandru is often depicted with them and now Abaddon too. Maybe it's a common aspect for this race of gods (for the lack of a better term) to have wings (if the chinese text can be taken as canon of course). However Dhuum, Balthazar and the Lyssa twins were never shown to have wings. Do they belong to the same race? Kormir certainly doesn't and Grenth is implied to be half human, both lacking wings too.

Edited by BuddhaKeks, 29 November 2012 - 07:41 PM.

[shadavenger]

Many thoughts while reading this post.....

First, Grenth's father being the "mortal sculptor." A sculptor is someone creating an image of of something which we can infer that he was creating an image of mortals (e.g. humans). This can be linked to the idea of the Gods "brought" humans into the world, "brought" does not just mean bringing from a different place (plane of existence), it can also be interpreted as "birthing." So we can link this together and can argue that this "mortal sculptor" (possibly a god) created the human image and the other gods "brought/birth" the image into a physical form. Which means humans were created in Tyria the world.

Second, what about the Celestials? How are they related to the gods? Are they on equal levels?

[Thalador]

BuddhaKeks, on 29 November 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

First of thanks for the great translation. As I'm currently translating a longer story myself, I know how time consuming it can be. Especially from chinese to english.

For the wings: That means atleast 3 gods have wings, Dwayna, Melandru is often depicted with them and now Abaddon too. Maybe it's a common aspect for this race of gods (for the lack of a better term) to have wings (if the chinese text can be taken as canon of course). However Dhuum, Balthazar and the Lyssa twins were never shown to have wings. Do they belong to the same race? Kormir certainly doesn't and Grenth is implied to be halth human, both lacking wings too.

The following theory's been reappearing every now and then on the lore forums (we even incorporated part of it in our fanon with Konig), and now I think it's going to be proven correct - or at least partially correct - somewhere along Guild Wars 2's lifespan.

I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that we can categorize the gods/god like beings into four generations - with an unknown amount (ranging from 0 to infinity) before the "first" in the target interval. Personally, with this new lore document describing Abaddon with wings, I'd say that him, Dwayna and Melandru ascended to godhood around the same time, and that they are of the second generation. Why? Because Abaddon's been clearly stated to have killed another god, and took its power which was eternal and indestructible. Third generation would probably consist of Lyss & Ilya, Balthazar, and Dhuum (assuming he was a human before he became a skeletal wraith in his defeat): 4 humans who rose up against someother deities - Balthazar against his father, maybe - and ascended after defeating those previous gods. And at last, Grenth and Kormir form the fourth generation.

@ shadavenger: The ascendance of some celestials (Hai Jii and Chong (the pig) from the top of my mind) are related to the gods, while others became Celestials through other means - or it's just not said that they were raised to the heavens by the gods. But given that Kuunavang has power over celestial forces, and she's a dragon - thus clearly not a servant of the Six - it's possible that quite a few celestials are completely independent of the gods. Concerning their power, I'd say they are on par with the Spirits of the Wild. (Last note: I'm hoping that they are champions of the benevolent Elder Celestial or Star Dragon... )

[Konig Des Todes]

@Drax: Ah yes, forgot about that one concept art, though those look more like insect legs than scythes to me, personally. But that's just nitpickery.

On that going with the other gods too... would explain why Dhuum's basically a walking skeleton - he believes himself to be death itself, thus would have the body of a dead being (e.g., a skeleton). Would also explain why Melandru is often depicted as very tree-like. I doubt that she's part tree naturally, after all.

@MesmersFromHouseElara: I had caught that too, but figured it was referring to when Margonites defaced the statues - which would have "ended" when the Margonites lost, but renewed when Abaddon stepped in. I mainly thought this since it predates the GW2 lore by a long shot (obviously) and have been figuring them possibly fleeing something was a new addition to the lore (mainly because it was never hinted upon before).

Also, aren't you referring to this thread with that "other thread of Konig"

@BuddhaKeks: Actually, Grenth is at least once depicted with wings. His semi-appearance of wings I've been taking as due to being Dwayna's son, but possibly that he may not have them (or that they were removed/disappeared/are disappearable).

@shadavenger: As I said, Grenth is explicitly stated by the same source who says his father was "a mortal sculptor" to be half-god. So we know for a fact his father was not a god.

As for Celestials - they are human spirits (at least most of them are humans) who have ascended to a higher state of being. Why or how, we're not entirely sure sans Chong (Celestial Pig), but they seem to me to akin to avatars of the gods. Each celestial holds a representation of some sort of persona - the kirin, for instance, represents purity being corrupted, and the turtle represents wisdom that was wrong.

@Thalador: Where do you get that Dhuum was human? Also, wouldn't Kormir technically be third generation since she supplanted a second generation by your depiction?

Also, Hai Jii pleaded to Grenth, but it doesn't say Grenth turned Hai Jii into a celestial or was related to that.

[Thalador]

Maybe generation wasn't the best phrase I could use. Eras of supplantation/succession might explain better what I was getting at. In that case, there might be 3 we know of.

- (I) Unknown. Predecessors of Abaddon, Dwayna, and Melandru defeated) -> (II) Balthazar's father, the predecessor of Lyssa and Dhuum defeated -> (III) Dhuum and Abaddon defeated.

As for Dhuum being a human once... just speculation.

[Sword Hammer Axe]

Evil is a hard word to use, because it implies a 100%. He could've been 75% evil or 50% or maybe even less. I personally think that it's all politics.

[Leriel]

MesmersFromHouseElara, on 28 November 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

It was never said Malchor was the father,  just "a mortal sculptor".  Also, I think people get hung up on the term mortal, it doesn't mean human, it just means it can die.  And, using Abaddon as an example, the gods could be called mortal. Finally, the term sculptor could be shaped into a broad term as well.

If the text was referring to Grenth as a son of Dwayna ("mortal chick") and "mortal sculptor", then "mortal" would be redundant, i'm pretty sure 'mortal' is used here as 'mortal as oposed to other side of family'

[Captain Bulldozer]

Wild theory:  The Human Gods and the Elder Dragons are two sides of the same coin.  

Fact:  There are always 6 of each.

Fact:  If the theory about the Pale tree being a champion of an Elder Dragon representing Life/Nature holds water (maybe that's a big "if) then isn't it also possible that there is a historic parallel here?  Abaddon eventually opposed the other gods.. making it 5 on 1.  If the Pale tree's master opposes the other 5 Dragons, its essentially the same thing.

Fact:  There seems to be a Dragon representing certain elemental forces:  Crystal, Ice/Water, Death/Decay, Fire, etc.  Similarly the Human gods do as well (and perhaps even the exact same forces?)

Fact:  From what we know, the current gods are the Dragons have never been "awake" at the same time.  Moreover, shortly before the Dragons began to "awake" this time, the gods influence began to wane.

Fact:  The power of a god can be opposed and defeated by mortals.  The power of a Dragon can be as well.

Fact:  The power of a god can be transferred from one being to another, making a new god in the process (Kormir for example).  We don't know if this is the case for the Dragons, exactly, but they can seemingly transfer their own power to their champions... and for all we know the ACTUAL dragons awake today are not physically the same as those that were around previously.


Much of this is completely speculative and I don't exactly believe much in this theory myself, but its hard to deny some of the parallels.  One possible interpretation would be some sort of cyclical nature of the forces on Tyria, not unlike the seasons, where the elemental powers become corrupted (producing the dragons) and then renewed into a more pure form (the gods)... all of which seems to be driven by magic.  Abaddon's gift of magic may have simply escalated the change by causing magic to be used more.

[Konig Des Todes]

@Wild theory: More or less disproven, given the fact that after you compare Balthazar-Primordus, Melandru-possible Sixth (which in of itself is relying on a theory), and Abaddon-DSD, it falls apart - if you count Abaddon, you must count Dhuum who holds no ties to Jormag, leaving Jormag without a god; Kralkatorrik and Lyssa don't match up beyond purple (which Abaddon was as well); Abaddon's predecessor, which we know nothing about but can assume is tied to knowledge as Kormir is tied to knowledge, must be counted rather than Abaddon - no Elder Dragon holds ties to knowledge; if we count modern gods then Kormir is without a dragon, one can argue Dwayna-Zhaitan and Jormag-Grenth and DSD-Lyssa, but Kralkatorrik is still without a god and Kralkatorrik can't match Kormir - no connection.

@"Fact" 1: There may be more Elder Dragons as we only know of the Elder Dragon numbers that the jotun knew of (I find it hard to believe 6 beings destroyed the world countless times over), and though there are Six Human Gods, there are at least 2 other gods (Koda, Mellaggan) though one may be the same as Melandru, and then the Spirits of the Wild are put on par to the Six Gods by non-humans.

@"Fact" 2: That theory on the Pale Tree holds little water at the moment, its strongest support is the Nightmare Court which isn't the natural state of sylvari (as shown by Malyck) and in of itself is originated from a source that is not the Pale Tree (said source is indeed tied to the Dream of Dreams, but as proven by the White Stag, the DoD is not unique unto the Pale Tree, and as proven by Malyck, not all sylvari hold ties to the DoD).

@"Fact" 3: They both do, but not the same forces. And even then, some elemental forces, such as water and ice, are not tied to the power of godhood - it seems that the Six Gods' unchangable powers are along the lines of how the norn call the Six Gods - that is, the actionary forces rather than the natural forces - e.g., Balthazar may be fire and war, but war is what's not changable for him - just as Dhuum was not ice, and water went from Abaddon to Lyssa while Death went from Dhuum to Grenth and Knowledge from Abaddon to Kormir.

@"Fact" 4: The Six Gods are still active, just not on Tyria. They left 1,000 years prior to the Elder Dragons' rise. Though their lack of influence may hold ties to the Elder Dragons, it is likely so far as the Elder Dragons absorb magic. The Seventh Reaper that appears during the personal story step Cathedral of Silence (not to be confused with the location, which is where the personal story step takes place) he outright states Grenth is still alive and active and that he himself is too weak - though the reason for his weakness is never said.

@"Fact" 5: And... The power of a lich can be, so too can the power of an envoy, or a super-powered human. Point? Relevance? I see none.

@"Fact" 6: That's not a fact but speculation, the dragon powers being transferred, which is more or less disproven. When Abaddon was killed, a transferrence was mandatory else the whole Realm of Torment and Tyria would be destroyed - Zhaitan died. Crash landing.... nothing. No magical surgence or the like.


Funny how you say "much of this is completely specualtive" after calling them facts. 8D