draxynnic, on 27 November 2012 - 11:30 PM, said:
Regarding Abaddon - I do recall mention that he made the first strike of the actual war, by sending his followers to attack and desecrate shrines and temples to the other gods.
While it was indeed said the Margonites unprovokingly descicrated the Temple of the Six, nothing indicates that Abaddon ordered such.
Under such thoughts that this descicration initiated the war, then the war was begun by the Margonites, and Abaddon reacted in defense when the gods (or at least their servants) attacked the Margonites.
And actually, that makes sense, especially if that's why the forgotten armada was chasing down Jadoth.
draxynnic, on 28 November 2012 - 02:12 AM, said:
Grenth and Balthazar can both be pretty vicious, but I don't recall either of them actively espousing mercilessness.
Though Grenth does represent destruction and inevitable end (just like Dhuum, apparently, according to Malchor - which makes me think the inscription on the Statue of Grenth in Divinity's Reach was originally talking about Dhuum), and Balthazar was known for ruthlessness, anger issues, and wanting eternal war (the last coming from an NPC in the Fissure of Woe stating that there will always be war in that realm).
Acting without mercy isn't that cold or vicious either. It merely means to act without hesitation - this doesn't mean to be ruthless, it just means to be firm in what you do. If you're going to chuck a ball through a window, do it without mercy - e.g., just chuck that ball! If you're going to defend a rapist in court as said rapist's lawyer, do it without mercy - e.g., consequences be damned, get that guy free.
That's how I take that line of Abaddon's at least. Not "kill all your foes" like one would initially suspect, but "do not hesitate in your action" - and that flows a lot more with the rest of his motto.
Steadfast Gao Shun, on 28 November 2012 - 02:29 AM, said:
Interesting. The source we've had has been here
, which doesn't mention Luxons or Kurzicks (btw, the Jade Sea was called such before it was solidified too).
Forgotten initiating the first strike sounds funny considering I made that postulation just now before reading your post.
Can you provide a direct translation of this information rather than a summary? Would be peculiar to read, though due to its source I'd consider it as canon as Arachnia or the Redeemed Realm (same with the link I just provided that is a fan translation of NCsoft's former Taiwanese site).
MesmersFromHouseElara, on 28 November 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:
It was never said Malchor was the father, just "a mortal sculptor". Also, I think people get hung up on the term mortal, it doesn't mean human, it just means it can die. And, using Abaddon as an example, the gods could be called mortal. Finally, the term sculptor could be shaped into a broad term as well.
Well, although by dictionary standards immortal means "cannot die" in fictional works it is used to describe something that doesn't age. E.g., the greek gods were called immortal, but they could be killed - however, they would never die of old age. Like the human pantheon in GW, if left alone, they will live forever. But they can be killed still.
It's a grossly overused misuse of the term, but that's how it is.
Orual Fox, on 28 November 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:
Wasn't there a discussion not too long ago, about the whole "is Malchor the father" and especially the quote about how Grenth would succeed where his father failed, or something like that.
Where his father fell was the terms used.
Which can mean a lot of things, considering the scrolls were written in prose.
Orual Fox, on 28 November 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:
My only problem with Malchor even possibly being the father of Grenth, is that Malchor was requested by the Six to do the sculpting, and Grenth would have been one of these, correct? So did Grenth just get born "at the appropriate age of a god" or was there really just a long weird time between the relationship between Malchor/Dwayna and the birth of Grenth?
Well, Dwayna was the first god that Malchor met, though the last that he sculpted. No timeframe was given for how long it took for Malchor to sculpt each god, and given the Orrian History Scrolls, the feelings Malchor had for Dwayna, she had for him. Particularly:
When it was done, he asked Dwayna if she favored the image, and weeping, Dwayna allowed him to touch her face, that he might know the precision with which—even blind—he had carved her image. But then, as she knew she must, the goddess Dwayna left and returned to Arah, leaving the sculptor alone.
This line particularly makes it sound to me like Dwayna didn't want to leave, and her reaction to how Malchor sculpted her tells me there were feelings to the sculptor himself particularly.
And then there's the bit I implied above, that the inscription of Malchor on the statue of Grenth sounds more like it's meant for Dhuum than Grenth:
"Grenth I feared the most, for in gazing upon him I saw my own end. But Grenth also embodies inevitability, the idea that all things have a time...and that time must inevitably pass." —Malchor
Given the Six Gods' love for altering history, and human history's rate of being wrong, it's possible that Malchor sculpted Dhuum and not Grenth.
Flaming_Foxx, on 28 November 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:
If we wanted to get really antsy about it it is very easy to point out that "a mortal sculptor" could also be someone who sculpts mortals - as in a god. But that would be syntactically very odd (not unlike this sentence).
Though Grenth is explicitly stated to be half-god in the same sentence he's said to be the son of a mortal sculptor. So that's not it.
I, on 28 November 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:
Back in GW1 I used to run around Lion's Arch/Kryta and look at all the ancient ruined cities that clung to the jungle hillsides. Were those structures built by these Forgotten people?
If you're referring to those large towers, then no, those be Krytan.
Mockingjay74, on 28 November 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:
Third, if you look at the locations brought up in the scrolls, there are some interesting overlaps and bits that don't fit together. The main thing that doesn't fit for me is that the gods called Malchor to them to sculpt (under the "Tragedy of Malchor" story) them, but then they returned to Arah as if they weren't already there? That's just an inconsistency but a weird one.
I think it's an unstated implication that the gods, not allowing humans to enter Arah, went out to meet Malchor.
We know for a fact that both Dwayna and Lyssa can hide their divinity and aura and appearing completely human per Lyssa scripture and Karei
, and we know Balthazar played a boardgame with a human, so it's possible that he did the same (then again, he played this game with a ritualist). So it's not unlikely that the gods disguised themselves to meet with Malchor, rather than bringing Malchor into Arah.
MesmersFromHouseElara, on 28 November 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:
This is off topic but I just can't help but add; I wonder what Grenth was prior to defeating Dhuum. Did Grenth perform a Kormir-esque ritual and absorb a large portion of his current powers? Was he "born" with natural demi godlike powers of death?
He was a half-god, per Priestess Rhie (the one who told us that his father was a mortal sculptor). He already represented mortality, and was called the prince of ice and sorrow.
What's interesting to note is that nothing but Memory of Dhuum's Last Stand indicates that Grenth absorbed any power, and even that doesn't specify Grenth absorbing Dhuum's power.
So he very well may still
be a half-god, considering the Orrian History Scrolls says that he had to prove himself to join the other gods (seemed he wasn't allowed to live in Arah/be with the gods despite being Dwayna's son?), rather than Grenth having become