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the mistakes Anet admitted


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#1 Maarius

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:55 PM

I just want to point out a few things which were interesting in the latest AMA with Chris Whiteside. They admitted some mistakes here but there is reason for hope that things will get corrected.

Chris about the implementation of Ascended gear only from Fractal-Runs:

Quote

for example full Ascended gear will be introduced over a long period of time and will be earn able through lots of different parts/activities of the game. We had intended for example for the first release of acsended items come from other parts of the game but sadly it did not work out this way. Moving forward this is how it will work however.
...and his solution that this will be corrected in the future updates.

Quote

In regard to gear checks specifically all increases in the power curve will be minimal and therefore there should be no straying from the intended power curve that you see in the game now, in terms of trajectory.

In regard to gated content via gear then i think that this is something we are going to give more thought to. Specifically if the reward at the end of the activity applies to players that are not just looking to do a specific type of content. Note that this statement is somewhat contradictory to the philosophy laid out above if the required items do not drop elsewhere or the ultimate rewards don't either. This is something we are going to fix.

+from another answer:
In retrospect Ascended should have been deployed pre launch and earn able throughout most activities in the game (which is how we are moving forward).

he admitts that they are aware of certain grind situations in the game, no PR talk here... he plays with open cards and states a honest answer + looking for solutions

Quote

I do however feel that we do have to be very careful in regard to progression design turning into grind and i believe there are some instances of this kind of grind that predate the launch of the game. It is for this reason that we are looking to revamp some aspects of the game whilst connecting other parts increase the overall experience of fun in our progression mechanics.


there was this discussion about "minimal grind". A user stated:

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With regard to minimal Grind, how is going from 5 Ectos to 50 Ectos for a piece of gear minimal? 5 T6 items to 250 T6 items, minimal?
Chris answers:

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Good point Nacho. We are currently discussing these particular items and it is fair to say that we don't want have such big hikes in requirements moving forward.
they totally see it the same way we do, and they plan to fix this, just as they fixed the dungeon tokens which now are much less grindier than before.

#2 Corvindi

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:08 PM

The words sounded pretty good.  Now I'm just waiting to see what actions they actually take to fix the current gear and also how they release future gear.

Edited by Corvindi, 27 November 2012 - 01:08 PM.


#3 Heart Collector

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:16 PM

View PostCorvindi, on 27 November 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

The words sounded pretty good.  Now I'm just waiting to see what actions they actually take to fix the current gear and also how they release future gear.

They do seem earnest to improve on the game and quite passionate about it. Of course only time will tell if and how they will improve things, but I have faith that they will at least actively try. Problem is they need to cater to so many different tastes that they may end up making too many compromises with lukewarm results - but I guess we'll know before too long.

I'm still enjoying the game personally and I'm curious to see what is in store for it :D

#4 raspberry jam

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:17 PM

Chris Whiteside has repeatedly proven to be completely wrong. I might be wrong. Let's see what happens (e.g. removing/destating ascended tier, adding guesting, making dyes account unlocked).

Edited by Leyana, 27 November 2012 - 10:29 PM.
No


#5 Jason Seven

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:19 PM

Admitting mistakes is of no value if your playerbase is this outraged. He talks and talks about how bad they handled this basically saying that it was introduced too early yet this begs the question: Why was it rushed if they had completely different plans? It absolutely failed to satisfy any kind of audience and only ended up angering both. All this new gear did was giving ArenaNet a huge amount of bad reputation. That being said don't expect any kind of these so called fixes within at least 2 months. It'd be a miracle if they could deliver earlier than that considering how slow they work on fixing issues instead they rather introduce rushed and half-baked new content which brings only more issues to an already broken and bug infested game. Disappointing. I expected more of them.

#6 jirayasan

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:22 PM

I think they have miscommunicated internally and that's why the Ecto problem is at it is. The Ascended gear problem is most likely a time problem, because the content is so much more work than it is in other mmorpgs and it comes with more bugs.

Bear in mind that they also work on the first Expansion and alot of other things than the game updates like The Lost Shores, next game update is Winters Day.

If Ascended gear was there at release, people wouldn't be whining and raging now. As he said, there won't be any better gear than ascended and legendaries, ascended will only work as a time consumer until you get your legendary and was supposed to be in the game from the start.

#7 BrettM

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:39 PM

View Postjirayasan, on 27 November 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

As he said, there won't be any better gear than ascended and legendaries, ascended will only work as a time consumer until you get your legendary and was supposed to be in the game from the start.
He did not say there wouldn't be any further gear progression. In fact, he said the exact opposite. There won't be any new rarity tiers introduced, but the existing tiers will "evolve" and there will be further progression. To me that's a distinction without a difference. What does it matter if we're chasing Exotic - Ascended - Exalted - Immaculate - Etc. with different colors or if we're chasing "evolved" versions of Fine, Masterwork, Exotic, and Ascended?

#8 Resolve

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:47 PM

Yeah lets listen to and put faith in what Anet says.

That's worked out pretty well so far.

#9 Corvindi

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:49 PM

View Postjirayasan, on 27 November 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

I think they have miscommunicated internally and that's why the Ecto problem is at it is. The Ascended gear problem is most likely a time problem, because the content is so much more work than it is in other mmorpgs and it comes with more bugs.

Bear in mind that they also work on the first Expansion and alot of other things than the game updates like The Lost Shores, next game update is Winters Day.

If Ascended gear was there at release, people wouldn't be whining and raging now. As he said, there won't be any better gear than ascended and legendaries, ascended will only work as a time consumer until you get your legendary and was supposed to be in the game from the start.

If Ascended gear had been announced the way it was implemented (only through dungeons) I wouldn't even have bought the game, though.  I already know I don't like running dungeons over and over for gear, especially in a game without a WoW-style dungeon finder.  But they did say they would make the gear available through other means.  We'll see.  Meanwhile, no sub fee, so it won't cost me to stick around, piddle around on alts, and find out what they're really going to do.

#10 Maarius

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:51 PM

View PostBrettM, on 27 November 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

He did not say there wouldn't be any further gear progression. In fact, he said the exact opposite. There won't be any new rarity tiers introduced, but the existing tiers will "evolve" and there will be further progression. To me that's a distinction without a difference. What does it matter if we're chasing Exotic - Ascended - Exalted - Immaculate - Etc. with different colors or if we're chasing "evolved" versions of Fine, Masterwork, Exotic, and Ascended?
There is a big difference in here: Ascended Items are much harder to come by than Exotic ones. Exotics a lot rarer than Rare ones. It takes much longer to get to the next tier than simply getting a better Item from the same tier you've already got.

You have full yellow gear? Now you find a new yellow piece and actually consider it an upgrade. It's much better than having a yellow and the only next best thing can be an Exotic.

View PostResolve, on 27 November 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

Yeah lets listen to and put faith in what Anet says.

That's worked out pretty well so far.

Indeed it has. Dungeon Tokens and therefore Dungeon Gear is much easier to come by now, for example. I got tons and tons of Karma through the Daily-Achievements and the bags dropping in Dungeons now, not that difficult to get my Orr-Armorsets either. I'm having a blast playing the game and I'm happy with the gear I'm wearing... I can play all of the content and have tons of fun in the new fractals. What more could I wish for? :)

Edited by Maarius, 27 November 2012 - 01:53 PM.


#11 sty0pa

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:04 PM

No plan survives contact with the enemy.
GW2 was anticipated to be successful, but I suspect that even they were surprised by the aggressive consumption of content.  Clearly, I think, they expected released content to last several more months.

I think they've made plenty of mistakes, but I don't excoriate them for it.  Every company fears explosive success almost as much as catastrophic failure, because coping with either can be painful.

So they're re-evaluating their timeline and I think the Lost Shores content was added a bit too hastily. (shrug).  I don't see malice in it, just over-urgency.

One point has to be made, though: as a free2play game, there is a clear balance on the rate they can generate new content essentially free of charge.  The original business plan clearly said "ok here's the rate of game purchases, and a speculated rate of return on the in-game-store".  HOPEFULLY that store profitability has seen an increase commensurate with the aggressive consumption of content, and they can accelerate their whole plan.

#12 Sinful01

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:11 PM

So it turns out to be one of those stop-gap bandage deals.

"Oh noes, gear grinders are leaving! Quick, throw in really grindy super-needing-high-demand-materials recipes/items to stop them!"

This keeps those people semi-happy for a while.  They get to push and grind and score new, better gear and flex epeen.

"Oh noes, non-gear grinders are leaving! Quick, lower requirements for the stuff we just put in!"

Now they'll tinker with the recipes and made Ascended available elsewhere and easier to get.  That will quell some of the anger from the people that hate grind.  Sure, you have to grind ... but less! Hurray!

"Oh noes, those original gear grinders, who have the gear, are done ... and others are 'catching up' to them!  Their epeens are shrinking!  Quick, throw in more gear with insane requirements for them!"



I did this dance back in the Everquest days. I hated it.  New content too grindy for anyone but a fraction of people that like it (or just have the hours to throw at it), that gets a welfare-nerf to make it easier to get for everyone else ... rinse, repeat.

Sure, there is a slim chance this is a case of one design or coding team not talking to another.  Maybe team A added the gear and team B added the recipes ... and team B is just ignorant and hasn't played the actual game enough to know 50 ectos and 250 t6 mats not only is out of reach of most players but it'll spiral the prices of pretty much all the higher level goods upwards.

Still, I find it hard to believe ANet just stumbled onto the standard grindfest MMO playbook by accident.

Edited by Sinful01, 27 November 2012 - 02:13 PM.


#13 Linfang

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:46 PM

As it stands right now I wont be spending any currency , money, shards etc to get or craft any ascended piece because from the AMA there is too many things up in the air they might change. So when people spend 250 bloods or claws etc to craft a backpiece they will change it the next day and only require 50

#14 blindude

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:46 PM

View PostBrettM, on 27 November 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

He did not say there wouldn't be any further gear progression. In fact, he said the exact opposite. There won't be any new rarity tiers introduced, but the existing tiers will "evolve" and there will be further progression. To me that's a distinction without a difference. What does it matter if we're chasing Exotic - Ascended - Exalted - Immaculate - Etc. with different colors or if we're chasing "evolved" versions of Fine, Masterwork, Exotic, and Ascended?
of course they will increase the stats furthermore..Do you  really have to debate over this when in this ama they stated that they plan on increasing the max level ??
lol :P

Edited by blindude, 27 November 2012 - 02:47 PM.


#15 Corvindi

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:49 PM

View PostSinful01, on 27 November 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

So it turns out to be one of those stop-gap bandage deals.

"Oh noes, gear grinders are leaving! Quick, throw in really grindy super-needing-high-demand-materials recipes/items to stop them!"

This keeps those people semi-happy for a while.  They get to push and grind and score new, better gear and flex epeen.

"Oh noes, non-gear grinders are leaving! Quick, lower requirements for the stuff we just put in!"

Now they'll tinker with the recipes and made Ascended available elsewhere and easier to get.  That will quell some of the anger from the people that hate grind.  Sure, you have to grind ... but less! Hurray!

"Oh noes, those original gear grinders, who have the gear, are done ... and others are 'catching up' to them!  Their epeens are shrinking!  Quick, throw in more gear with insane requirements for them!"



I did this dance back in the Everquest days. I hated it.  New content too grindy for anyone but a fraction of people that like it (or just have the hours to throw at it), that gets a welfare-nerf to make it easier to get for everyone else ... rinse, repeat.

Sure, there is a slim chance this is a case of one design or coding team not talking to another.  Maybe team A added the gear and team B added the recipes ... and team B is just ignorant and hasn't played the actual game enough to know 50 ectos and 250 t6 mats not only is out of reach of most players but it'll spiral the prices of pretty much all the higher level goods upwards.

Still, I find it hard to believe ANet just stumbled onto the standard grindfest MMO playbook by accident.

If they do this going forward they've seen their last dime from me.  The next Ascended gear needs to release with minimal grind and immediately available to people who don't do dungeons, else they're just setting us up for exactly the treadmill you've just described, with the usual disadvantages for players who don't do certain content built in due to a lag in the time the gear is available to one group but not yet to others.  This will be a completely unacceptable method of 'doling out' new gear.

Edit:  Meh.  That 'going forward' corp-speak phrase is catching.  :(

Edited by Corvindi, 27 November 2012 - 02:50 PM.


#16 bdatty

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:52 PM

I don't see what they're admitting. They implemented Ascended late into the game, people whine. They implement these high parameters to see the feel of the community, as always, 'too much of a grind'. So they'll lower the value of mats in the future. People who can and will get these Ascended gear will flush out their resources to get it. So strategically, players are cleaning out the daily generated items by a large sum. But remember it's only a back item. Eventually when other ascended are released, there will be a general distribution to make these mats. Don't forget they said they wanted to close the gap between Exotic and Legendary in terms of time spent. You guys see it as vertical progression, lulz.

Keep pointing fingers and they'll break it. Just like they did to poor ol' Plinx.

Edited by bdatty, 27 November 2012 - 02:54 PM.


#17 Robsy128

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:52 PM

People are so ridiculously pessimistic. How about we wait and see what happens, rather than crying and whining like little kids.

I mean, really? WAAAA - Anet made a mistake! They said they would... they would... AHHHH.
Please, for the love of everything good in the world, stop and think for a moment. It's easy to just throw away answers they've given to the playerbase. Let's actually wait and see what their next move is. After all, actions speak louder than words.

Edited by Robsy128, 27 November 2012 - 02:53 PM.


#18 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:10 PM

View PostRobsy128, on 27 November 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

After all, actions speak louder than words.

Posted Image

#19 jirayasan

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:18 PM

View PostBrettM, on 27 November 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

He did not say there wouldn't be any further gear progression. In fact, he said the exact opposite. There won't be any new rarity tiers introduced, but the existing tiers will "evolve" and there will be further progression. To me that's a distinction without a difference. What does it matter if we're chasing Exotic - Ascended - Exalted - Immaculate - Etc. with different colors or if we're chasing "evolved" versions of Fine, Masterwork, Exotic, and Ascended?

Yes they will make Ascended gear further progress in the new dungeon with Infusions etc. Still doeasn't change what i said.

#20 MazingerZ

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:19 PM

View PostBrettM, on 27 November 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:


He did not say there wouldn't be any further gear progression. In fact, he said the exact opposite. There won't be any new rarity tiers introduced, but the existing tiers will "evolve" and there will be further progression. To me that's a distinction without a difference. What does it matter if we're chasing Exotic - Ascended - Exalted - Immaculate - Etc. with different colors or if we're chasing "evolved" versions of Fine, Masterwork, Exotic, and Ascended?

Like WoW epics.  Anyone not drawing that parllell is kidding themselves.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#21 jirayasan

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:20 PM

View PostCorvindi, on 27 November 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

If Ascended gear had been announced the way it was implemented (only through dungeons) I wouldn't even have bought the game, though.  I already know I don't like running dungeons over and over for gear, especially in a game without a WoW-style dungeon finder.  But they did say they would make the gear available through other means.  We'll see.  Meanwhile, no sub fee, so it won't cost me to stick around, piddle around on alts, and find out what they're really going to do.

Ascended armour was supposed to be implemented in WvW and open world aswell, there would be more ways to get it than through only the new dungeon. Did you even read the interview?

#22 Heart Collector

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:22 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 27 November 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

Like WoW epics.  Anyone not drawing that parllell is kidding themselves.

what I gleaned from Chris' responses was that there will be vertical progression, but in much smaller and easier to cover increments than more traditional WoW-like systems. And also the stat disparity that will result of this will be much smaller than in WoW-style progression.

Just my personal interpretation, I could be wrong.

#23 Resolve

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:58 PM

View PostSinful01, on 27 November 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

So it turns out to be one of those stop-gap bandage deals.

"Oh noes, gear grinders are leaving! Quick, throw in really grindy super-needing-high-demand-materials recipes/items to stop them!"

This keeps those people semi-happy for a while.  They get to push and grind and score new, better gear and flex epeen.

"Oh noes, non-gear grinders are leaving! Quick, lower requirements for the stuff we just put in!"

Now they'll tinker with the recipes and made Ascended available elsewhere and easier to get.  That will quell some of the anger from the people that hate grind.  Sure, you have to grind ... but less! Hurray!

"Oh noes, those original gear grinders, who have the gear, are done ... and others are 'catching up' to them!  Their epeens are shrinking!  Quick, throw in more gear with insane requirements for them!"



I did this dance back in the Everquest days. I hated it.  New content too grindy for anyone but a fraction of people that like it (or just have the hours to throw at it), that gets a welfare-nerf to make it easier to get for everyone else ... rinse, repeat.

Sure, there is a slim chance this is a case of one design or coding team not talking to another.  Maybe team A added the gear and team B added the recipes ... and team B is just ignorant and hasn't played the actual game enough to know 50 ectos and 250 t6 mats not only is out of reach of most players but it'll spiral the prices of pretty much all the higher level goods upwards.

Still, I find it hard to believe ANet just stumbled onto the standard grindfest MMO playbook by accident.

Well making Ascended gear reaaaally easy to get probably would make quite a few people happy...

#24 Corvindi

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:59 PM

View Postjirayasan, on 27 November 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

Ascended armour was supposed to be implemented in WvW and open world aswell, there would be more ways to get it than through only the new dungeon. Did you even read the interview?

Last I checked my ability to acquire gear in game wasn't based on what was said in an interview, it's based on what happens in the game.

Another reason I'm done spending money until Anet figures itself out is the inability to get decent loot during DEs and in WvW unless you are in a team.  It completely defeats the point of the ability to group with other players without having to team up in the first place.

Hint:  This doesn't stop botters for a second, they work in teams all day anyway.

Edited by Corvindi, 27 November 2012 - 04:01 PM.


#25 deitiesforce

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:22 PM

I love how they were like we knew that people were gonna be pissed but we still implemented anyway just to piss people off LOL

#26 Robsy128

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:38 PM

View PostProtoss, on 27 November 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

Posted Image

In a few weeks/months, this will be normal. if they had implemented this at release, people wouldn't be complaining whatsoever.
Also, take a look at the original Guild Wars. It took me about 2 months to get the max stat gear. In Guild Wars 2, people had max stat gear within 2 weeks. Clearly, they had to change something so that people had something to work towards. I'm sure they're going to change the requirements for getting this gear as well so that it's easier to obtain/less grindy than it currently is.

Everyone's complaining about a broken system, including Arenanet. As I said before - wait and see what happens next. If they add Ultra gear to the game with +50 stats, then okay, you win. If they change the current system and make it more suitable for the players, then everybody wins. At the end of the day, the company needs to make money and the only way they can do that is by listening to the players, otherwise everyone is going to leave.

#27 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:45 PM

View PostRobsy128, on 27 November 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

As I said before - wait and see what happens next.
And as I said, THAT was what happened next. That was their second chance.
GW2 isn't a fantastic game. It's a game that needs help. And since we are a bunch of fanboys, we gave A.Net a second chance instead of simply leaving - we wanted them to improve the game. And Ascended gear is what they gave us.

Chance used. Wrong answer.

#28 funkybudda

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:07 PM

View PostRobsy128, on 27 November 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

In a few weeks/months, this will be normal. if they had implemented this at release, people wouldn't be complaining whatsoever.
Also, take a look at the original Guild Wars. It took me about 2 months to get the max stat gear. In Guild Wars 2, people had max stat gear within 2 weeks. Clearly, they had to change something so that people had something to work towards. I'm sure they're going to change the requirements for getting this gear as well so that it's easier to obtain/less grindy than it currently is.

Everyone's complaining about a broken system, including Arenanet. As I said before - wait and see what happens next. If they add Ultra gear to the game with +50 stats, then okay, you win. If they change the current system and make it more suitable for the players, then everybody wins. At the end of the day, the company needs to make money and the only way they can do that is by listening to the players, otherwise everyone is going to leave.

what "players" are you referring to? There might be a lot of PvE players, but there's just as much PvP / WvW players. Right now, Anet totally catering to the PvE and ignoring the others. Why should PvE community get's the preferential treatment?

#29 P4ndora

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:18 PM

Personally I don't mind grinding if it's purely for cosmetic items, but if I have to grind for better gear, grinding gets much more frustrating. Imo GW2 still lacks of "optional grind", basicly all exotic armors are pretty easy to get and tbh there are not many good-looking armor yet (well I'm not whining as the game only released, I have high hopes for future content patches/expansions in terms of shiny armor). And yes we have legendaries + named exotics, but I'm not satisfied with their looks. I think Greatswords have way more love than other weapons, and yes, I'm working on my Twilight/Sunrise, but I'd still prefer a legendary armor than weapon. I'm more concerned about armor looks than weapons + because of the wep swap you won't hold your weapon "permanently".

I didn't bother working for my ascended items as it is now, so I'm glad they're looking into this. 250 T6mat/ecto is way too much, I'd rather save them for my legendary weapon.

#30 DuskWolf

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:33 PM

Well... we'll see if I'm wrong, but since they also said vertical progression is here to stay, I honestly think that they're feeding those who're just deluding themselves enough to hang on a line of bull. They're telling people what they want to hear to keep them around for as long as they can, before they drop the next set of tiered gear.

View PostRobsy128, on 27 November 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

if they had implemented this at release, people wouldn't be complaining whatsoever.
How... ? What... ? Your brain, how does it work?

Of course they would have! It immediately proves that vertical progression and soul-sucking, social-life eating grinding are in. They didn't put them in at launch because of that reason. It was a bait & switch. If they put them in at launch, people would have known to quit sooner, rather than 'not having complained.'

Seriously, your brain... I'm honestly not sure what lead you to that conclusion.

Edited by Leyana, 27 November 2012 - 10:36 PM.
No





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