They know that the crafting materials required for Ascended Gear are too much of a grind.
They are discussing/having a look at said grind and are working on balancing it out.
They don't want to have this kind of grind in the game at all, even in the future with more content updates.
That's fine for Ascended. What about the geometric increase in the materials requirements between Fine, Masterwork, Rare, and Exotic? Three fine mats, eight, fifteen, followed by the jump to ectos and T6 mats. Is that minimal grind? Not from my perspective. Yet they have been on a course of exacerbating the grind rather than eliminating it by taking mats out of the economy (MF recipes to soak up "excess" mats), increasing the amount of mats required for refining in some cases (e.g., more logs required to make each plank), and nerfing farming paths. How does that square up with statements that they want to balance and eliminate grind?
In GW1, there was one set of level-20 stats. In GW2 there are three tiers of stats available at level 80, with an expense that increases on a steep curve. Which scheme encourages less grind? Did that grind just somehow sneak into the game by accident, slipping under the noses of vigilant developers committed to a philosophy of no grind? Was it done on purpose by developers who were just too stupid to realize that they were introducing grind? Can you come up with any explanation for this that does not make the company look either moronic or hypocritical?
If you can, please do! I would LOVE to let them off the hook. But I fear I'm going to be wary of anything they say on this topic now until they back it up with action.
That's fine for Ascended. What about the geometric increase in the materials requirements between Fine, Masterwork, Rare, and Exotic? Three fine mats, eight, fifteen, followed by the jump to ectos and T6 mats. Is that minimal grind? Not from my perspective. Yet they have been on a course of exacerbating the grind rather than eliminating it by taking mats out of the economy (MF recipes to soak up "excess" mats), increasing the amount of mats required for refining in some cases (e.g., more logs required to make each plank), and nerfing farming paths. How does that square up with statements that they want to balance and eliminate grind?
In GW1, there was one set of level-20 stats. In GW2 there are three tiers of stats available at level 80, with an expense that increases on a steep curve. Which scheme encourages less grind? Did that grind just somehow sneak into the game by accident, slipping under the noses of vigilant developers committed to a philosophy of no grind? Was it done on purpose by developers who were just too stupid to realize that they were introducing grind? Can you come up with any explanation for this that does not make the company look either moronic or hypocritical?
If you can, please do! I would LOVE to let them off the hook. But I fear I'm going to be wary of anything they say on this topic now until they back it up with action.
It's not minimal grind - not at the moment, anyway. The current system is broken, thus they are looking into it in hopes of fixing it. They're also nerfing farming paths because the idea of the game is to not sit in a singular area and repeat the same activity a number of times in order to obtain gold/items. Remember when people were farming CoF for the dungeon tokens and money? Yeah, they nerfed that because they didn't want people to play the game that way. The whole point of Guild Wars 2 is to do a 'fun' activity and receive rewards for it. Rewards which, in theory, help you to progress; whether that's with exp, money-making or getting a legendary item.
The comparison between GW1 and GW2 is bad as well. Sure, you had level 20 max stat gear, but do you remember the runes and insignias you had to obtain in order to have the best gear for your build? You could look ugly (since that's what the 15k armours were) and have the correct runes and insignias all for about 20-25k. Or, you could look really awesome and have the correct runes and insignias all for about 60k+. Either way, there was a degree of 'grinding' you had to do in order to get the best gear in the game. I remember playing the game for about 2 months before being able to afford the gear and runes and insignias. I didn't buy it all at once, either. I think I bought a piece of gear every week and then runes/insignias every week after.
Don't get me wrong, though - I see your point. The crafting material requirements for the highest tier of gear is quite high and nobody who plays the game normally can possibly afford those armours without needing to grind. Considering that you can buy a full set of exotic level 80 gear for about 8 gold isn't that much of a grind in comparison to Guild Wars 1's 15k armour set. By the time I got to level 80 on my first character, I already had 6 gold. I completed a few more maps, sold the items I got from completing the maps (the item they give you in the chest is worth 70 silver alone) and got my full exotic set within a week through normal play.
The only thing I, personally, can complain about is the cost of ascended items, but as they said they're working on making that less grindy, I have no problem with it.
They really need to sort out how you can get the crafting materials and how many crafting materials are needed for the higher tier recipes. I don't work for Arenanet, nor do I know what they're planning for the future. All I can say is that they understand they made a mistake, and they said they're working on fixing it. Do I say their fix is going to be perfect? No. It could make the game worse for all I know. All I can say is that working on these systems takes a long time and can't be done overnight. We just have to wait and see what they will do in the future. If they correct it, then fair enough, all is good. If they make it worse, then they're clearly doing something wrong.
I'm not personally defending the addition of this crazy grind - I'm just defending their answers at the moment. Believe me, if they add more grind or adjust the tiers even more (thus making them worse in some way or form), I'll be right beside you guys as we storm out of the game, vowing never to return.
The comparison between GW1 and GW2 is bad as well. Sure, you had level 20 max stat gear, but do you remember the runes and insignias you had to obtain in order to have the best gear for your build? You could look ugly (since that's what the 15k armours were) and have the correct runes and insignias all for about 20-25k. Or, you could look really awesome and have the correct runes and insignias all for about 60k+. Either way, there was a degree of 'grinding' you had to do in order to get the best gear in the game. I remember playing the game for about 2 months before being able to afford the gear and runes and insignias. I didn't buy it all at once, either. I think I bought a piece of gear every week and then runes/insignias every week after.
Uhmm... Yes you could spend more money on a different suit, you could spend even more than that (e.g. FoW, Vabbi, K/L), but after a rather brief period of grinding, that was it. The only actual stat upgrade that was above the point where most people said "hey I'm done grinding stats now" was superior vigor, which in itself could cost as much as a full suit - but even then, that only gave you 9 health more than a far cheaper major rune.
Im against the gear check thing have no reason to do stupid ass Fotm but I can see why it would be pretty bad if someone didnt have exotics or was starting out didnt want anyone to see there gear. Some games have it to where they have the option not to show I hope they do that. No ones business anyways.
Edited by AarodCutshot, 30 November 2012 - 04:30 PM.
raspberry jam, on 30 November 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:
Uhmm... Yes you could spend more money on a different suit, you could spend even more than that (e.g. FoW, Vabbi, K/L), but after a rather brief period of grinding, that was it. The only actual stat upgrade that was above the point where most people said "hey I'm done grinding stats now" was superior vigor, which in itself could cost as much as a full suit - but even then, that only gave you 9 health more than a far cheaper major rune.
tl;dr: "Ugly" isn't a stat.
True, but you're assuming that the grind will stay with each new stat upgrade or new tier of gear. Regardless of what you call it, you're assuming you will have to get 250 more ectos for another set of gear. I don't know - some people may like the idea of getting new gear (without the grind, of course) every once in a while with minor stat upgrades. At the end of the day, there is no +100 sword of power or +150 staff of healing that will destroy everything else. Minor stats mean nothing when it comes to gameplay. A warrior standing in the middle of a fight and hitting '1' over and over again will be destroyed regardless of what gear he has.
Take away the grind and what do you have? Vertical progression, or at least, that's what Arenanet calls it. It's not a mandatory gear treadmill either. Why would it be? I can do any dungeon in common armour and still finish it just as easily as I can do any dungeon in exotic/ascended gear and finish it. WvW was never intended to be a level playing field. It was intended to be a crazy war between three servers. PvP is separate so you don't have to worry too much about that guy over there having an advantage over you.
True, but you're assuming that the grind will stay with each new stat upgrade or new tier of gear. Regardless of what you call it, you're assuming you will have to get 250 more ectos for another set of gear.
Take away the grind and what do you have? Vertical progression, or at least, that's what Arenanet calls it. It's not a mandatory gear treadmill either. Why would it be? I can do any dungeon in common armour and still finish it just as easily as I can do any dungeon in exotic/ascended gear and finish it. WvW was never intended to be a level playing field. It was intended to be a crazy war between three servers. PvP is separate so you don't have to worry too much about that guy over there having an advantage over you.
Well, it seems like a reasonable assumption to make. What would be the point of vertical progression if it didn't involve grind?
"Oh right the new update came, let's click this button, wow I leveled up/got new gear".
That would be kind of meaningless... The only thing it would do would be to mess up the balance of stats. There would not even be a feeling of reward because you didn't actually do anything. Also, it would be pointless to ANet's business model since it does not encourage people to invest in gems.
raspberry jam, on 30 November 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:
Well, it seems like a reasonable assumption to make. What would be the point of vertical progression if it didn't involve grind?
"Oh right the new update came, let's click this button, wow I leveled up/got new gear".
That would be kind of meaningless... The only thing it would do would be to mess up the balance of stats. There would not even be a feeling of reward because you didn't actually do anything. Also, it would be pointless to ANet's business model since it does not encourage people to invest in gems.
To progress with your level 80 character... that was the bad thing about GW1. You finished the campaigns, got your gear and then what? Okay, do some elite areas. Then? Ehh, go into PvP I suppose. Cool. Done that. Didn't really get much from it aside from a title and children yelling at me 9 times out of 10. It was mostly: "CAPTURE TEH POINT U NOOB!", or "4-4-4" at the start of Allicance Battles. What now? Wait for the expansion. Well, okay... see you in 6 months I suppose. No, I really don't want to level another character for the time being. I just finished the game... maybe in a month or so I'll do it all again. This is how I ended up with 11 characters by the end of Guild Wars 1.
Obviously you wouldn't make the new gear stupidly easy to get. The players would have to do something in order to do it - i.e. do new dungeons, explore new areas, complete new story content, etc. This would satisfy the normal players (people who play for a few hours a day/week) as they can be like: 'I just finished that content and I got rewarded for it - awesome!' Of course, they shouldn't be doing the new content for the gear - they should be doing it for the fun of playing the game. It's how I enjoy the Fractals of the Mists dungeon, anyway. I don't do it because I need to or want a chance at some epic loot. I do it because I like doing it. If I didn't like doing it, I wouldn't bother, which is why I don't play PvP often.
Also, what part of Arenanet's current business model forces you towards the gem store? As I said before - there's nothing in there of real value aside from character slots, bank slots and cosmetic items (if you like your characters to look pretty). The thing that would make people invest in gems would be an expansion pack/content unlock, similar to the campaigns and bonus mission material in the original Guild Wars.
raspberry jam, on 30 November 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:
Well, it seems like a reasonable assumption to make. What would be the point of vertical progression if it didn't involve grind?
"Oh right the new update came, let's click this button, wow I leveled up/got new gear".
That would be kind of meaningless... The only thing it would do would be to mess up the balance of stats. There would not even be a feeling of reward because you didn't actually do anything. Also, it would be pointless to ANet's business model since it does not encourage people to invest in gems.
May I ask you a question? Honestly and with no implied mockery I must ask why you automatically assume that a new tier of progression must include grind?
It really doesn’t, it just requires new content. It is pretty clear to me that horrible balance and grind aside these new “ascended” items are just supposed to be a new kind of reward for new content, content that isn’t limited to the new dungeon I might add. Yes right now things did no work out as planned, clearly. We’re missing the alternative ways to obtain these items and the material cost of crafting is way too high, both are problems being worked on as we speak. But assuming that these issues are corrected than we simply got more game. New content with new rewards, no need to grind.
This goes back to what I referred to players’ “grind to get everything as fast as possible compulsion.” The number one reason for grind in MMOs isn’t because developers build games to grind, it is because players grind regardless and developers have to compensate. If, for example, a developer releases a game with enough content for six months, and then they see that their players have blown through it in two, it becomes clear that your players are quite frankly playing the game wrong. Or at least playing in a way counter what was intended. In this situation the only way to have your content last as long as was originally intended is to artificially extended its life span through grind. In essence the more players grind, the more grindy the game has to become.
If the Guild Wars 2 community truly wants a grind free game then we are going to have to bite the bullet and actually stop grinding. And right now everyone is in fact grinding way too much. Even you. I am living proof of this. One month after the official release I rerolled my character, starting from scratch. With this new character I did not grind, at all, ever. Yes I craft quite a bit, but I don’t farm, I don’t follow event chains, and I don’t rush content. I have only gotten a few zones to a hundred percent, I only mine the nods I come across, and I randomly wander around doing events and hearts as I see them, sticking around only until I get bored. In essence I don’t play GW2 like a MMO; I play it like Grand theft Auto.
And do you know what? While I am level eighty I do not have full exotic armor, in fact I’ve only just started getting together my rare set. I haven’t done any explorable mode dungeons, and in fact haven’t even finished all the story modes yet. And there are several zones I haven’t even been in, let alone finished. Yet I am not a casual player, this is my game of choice and before I took a break recently I played several days a week, and several hours out of those days. I just don’t grind. When you don’t, when you play for fun rather than rewards, you can be amazed at just how long the content lifespan of this game actually is.
Yet if you do grind you run into this problem we’re seeing now. You run through content before you were supposed to, you max out all your rewards in a few weeks at most, and then you start, to be frank, bitching about the lack of things to do and how there is no endgame. Then the developer, after rushing out content before it is finished and without core features that were intended to be included (Lost Shores) you find that they only way they could keep your obsessive compulsive habits from ripping through it faster than it was intended to last is to add ridiculous grind.
So yeah, you have a choice. Is Guild Wars 2 a grind game or not? And you need to act like it is one or the other. Because if Arena Net puts out content thinking to themselves “this new content should last three months” and the first thing that pops into your head is “cool, I’ll rush through all this right now and finish in a week” there is a problem and it isn’t with Arena Net’s anti-grind philosophy. If you really, and by that I mean the Guild Wars 2 community in general, want a grind free game then you’re going to have to actually stop grinding.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is why Guild Wars 2 isn’t a grind free game right now. Because people make videos and guides like that. Because people watch them and read them. And because people by the thousands follow them. If you insist on grinding then the only way the game can preserve its intended content lifespan is to compensate by including more grind.
Edited by Arkham Creed, 30 November 2012 - 05:38 PM.
There is no such thing as a grind free mmorpg if you dont want to grind then dont play a mmorpg. Once you learn that you cant put grind free and mmorpg together then your life will be easier... Cause then everything will be easy to get and no one will want to play. I have a better chance of a statue of me in lions arch then any mmorpg be grind free.. If anyone ever thinks a mmorpg will be grind free please slap yourself in the face...
There is no goodie room lol...
Edited by AarodCutshot, 30 November 2012 - 05:50 PM.
Don't get me wrong, though - I see your point. The crafting material requirements for the highest tier of gear is quite high and nobody who plays the game normally can possibly afford those armours without needing to grind. Considering that you can buy a full set of exotic level 80 gear for about 8 gold isn't that much of a grind in comparison to Guild Wars 1's 15k armour set. By the time I got to level 80 on my first character, I already had 6 gold. I completed a few more maps, sold the items I got from completing the maps (the item they give you in the chest is worth 70 silver alone) and got my full exotic set within a week through normal play.
I see your point on the GW1 comparison, yet I still feel they failed to bring forward lessons learned from that. My first GW1 character (Prophecies) didn't get max armor until several months into the game, either. But, I was around level 15 at the time and runeless level-20 armor from Boreal Station was more than sufficient for playing through the middle tiers of Prophecies, where you don't even get an elite skill until you're well into the Crystal Desert. There was no grind in getting that basic set of fugly level 20, though it did cost me almost everything I had accumulated along the way. After that, I picked up runes here and there as I went through the rest of Prophecies, so there was no grind for that, either. (I didn't start until 2008, so I missed the days of whacking ettins to grind for runes, though I've heard the tales from others.)
I guess I was expecting something similar from GW2. Yet I did have to do some grinding just for the basic greens, not to mention all of the earlier tiers, and even more for my rares. Exotics are still a distant dream, and picking up runes along the way is proving problematic. Obviously I could have long since been in exotics, following the plan you outlined above, except for my stubborn insistence on crafting my own gear. Anybody with the economic sense of a lima bean knows that I commit a little more economic suicide with every item I craft, which is why my total current wealth across four level-80 characters is around 25g.
Robsy128, on 30 November 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:
True, but you're assuming that the grind will stay with each new stat upgrade or new tier of gear.
His assumption makes perfect sense when one looks at the track record. That's exactly the way the game was at release, that's exactly what was present in the Halloween content, and that's exactly what they added more of when Ascended was introduced. They have said they will reconsider the grind that they added with Lost Shores, but I never saw one word indicating that they will revisit the original grind. Everything they've done so far to remove grind by preventing the farming of certain places and events has actually increased grind by making players spend even more repetitious hours elsewhere to get the same materials or the coin to buy them. It also really seems a stretch to see removing mats from the economy via the MF and increasing mat requirements for refining as being "anti-grind" measures. Players needing those mats for crafting now have to hit more nodes. Players selling those mats see the increased price as a market signal to supply more, so they also hit more nodes.
When what someone says now is at odds with what they've repeatedly done in the past, one is rightfully skeptical until the words are matched with deeds. I'm willing to wait and give them a chance, but the result had better be more than superficial fixes covered with a lot of hand-waving.
I did have to do some grinding just for the basic greens, not to mention all of the earlier tiers, and even more for my rares. Exotics are still a distant dream, and picking up runes along the way is proving problematic. Obviously I could have long since been in exotics, following the plan you outlined above, except for my stubborn insistence on crafting my own gear. Anybody with the economic sense of a lima bean knows that I commit a little more economic suicide with every item I craft, which is why my total current wealth across four level-80 characters is around 25g.
His assumption makes perfect sense when one looks at the track record. That's exactly the way the game was at release, that's exactly what was present in the Halloween content, and that's exactly what they added more of when Ascended was introduced. They have said they will reconsider the grind that they added with Lost Shores, but I never saw one word indicating that they will revisit the original grind. Everything they've done so far to remove grind by preventing the farming of certain places and events has actually increased grind by making players spend even more repetitious hours elsewhere to get the same materials or the coin to buy them. It also really seems a stretch to see removing mats from the economy via the MF and increasing mat requirements for refining as being "anti-grind" measures. Players needing those mats for crafting now have to hit more nodes. Players selling those mats see the increased price as a market signal to supply more, so they also hit more nodes.
When what someone says now is at odds with what they've repeatedly done in the past, one is rightfully skeptical until the words are matched with deeds. I'm willing to wait and give them a chance, but the result had better be more than superficial fixes covered with a lot of hand-waving.
Haha, I guess it depends what you do in-game. I usually get one exotic item I can use on my character everyday and I only play for about 2 hours. This is just through normal drops fighting normal monsters at level 80. If I don't get an exotic item I can use, I can always buy one from the trading post with the money I've made through normal play.
The thing is, how can they adjust the current system? What would make it better? It's easy to say 'oh, just lower the requirements for the gear,' or 'don't add the gear in the first place.' The second argument there is null and void considering they've already stated they're going ahead with it. So, what would make adding this new tier of gear work? How can they reduce the grind?
If they lower the requirements for ascended gear to a fraction above the requirements to make exotic gear, who's to say people won't just go straight for ascended gear in the first place? Really, you don't need to grind if the max stat gear drops every now and then. Gear which you can actually use, or trade for with tokens. As it stands and as I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong), ascended gear can only be made via the mystic forge. But if they allowed ascended gear to drop through normal play in level 80 zones, dynamic events and dungeons, would there still be a problem? I mean, after all, it shouldn't be too hard to get ascended gear then, should it? The same way it's not too hard to get exotics right now.
Perhaps they should just change the recipes as well so that the ascended items:
A)Don't use the same materials as the legendary items, thus not getting in your way to your achievement.
B)Require fewer materials than as they are right now.
That way they will fill in the time gap between exotic and legendary, rather than getting in the way and feeling like a grind. It's only a suggestion, anyway. Who knows how they will really 'fix' it.
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
GW2 was anticipated to be successful, but I suspect that even they were surprised by the aggressive consumption of content. Clearly, I think, they expected released content to last several more months.
I think they've made plenty of mistakes, but I don't excoriate them for it. Every company fears explosive success almost as much as catastrophic failure, because coping with either can be painful.
So they're re-evaluating their timeline and I think the Lost Shores content was added a bit too hastily. (shrug). I don't see malice in it, just over-urgency.
One point has to be made, though: as a free2play game, there is a clear balance on the rate they can generate new content essentially free of charge. The original business plan clearly said "ok here's the rate of game purchases, and a speculated rate of return on the in-game-store". HOPEFULLY that store profitability has seen an increase commensurate with the aggressive consumption of content, and they can accelerate their whole plan.
Old game format on a new business model. Shoulda just charged us a sub and get the game rolling forward already.
In this state, game wouldn't last me past 80 hours.
But if it was a subbed based game, then there would be some level of hope/expectations from us to the Devs to push out content regularly.
Like the saying goes, you get what you paid for.
they didn't have to bring a content update between the 2 very close events halloween and christmas... instead they chose to pump out an update which gives us (among other things) a dungeon in a state dungeons should have been from the start.
Thanks for the post, helped my attitude towards the game as I was getting really annoyed with all sorts of little things because other things were lurking in the back of my mind. Still...way too much CC from critters in the game, and the funneling of players into a select dungeon instead of the world was making doing events in Orr and other places still a real chore. I hope they walk the walk and not just talk the talk.
i think a lot of you guys are missing the point still. gw2 does not need any type of stat progression. the very fact that it's currently in the game, is upsetting a large portion of the population. guild wars 1 never had stat progression, in fact, it's really not needed in any mmo to be honest -- it's a waste of time and resources. it's better to add more enjoyable content and cosmetic items, this is not world of pandashit... population of gw2 will continue to drop if they increase stats because wow does it wayyyyy better.im sure there is a lot of people that would of never played this game if they would've known what anet planned to do in future updates.
Edited by discipleofpain, 01 December 2012 - 09:02 AM.
raspberry jam, on 30 November 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:
tl;dr: "Ugly" isn't a stat.
This. Between the elite armors and the standards the only difference was the skin. They offered exactly zero extras beyond looks. Theres been a few extra bunches of weapons added with the Envoy stuff and WoC but every single one of those weapons, even the ones that require grind to get, have exactly the same basic stats as any other maxed weapon.
Theres also one point that was completely skipped over. In GW1 there were collectors in pretty much every zone - gearing up didnt require grind as you could grab a sutiable weapon and set of armor just from the drops you would have gotten in that zone. From the Crystal Desert those collector items were max stat. You didnt need to grind in order to gear up. You only did grind in GW1 for the sake of looks alone.
Theres also one point that was completely skipped over. In GW1 there were collectors in pretty much every zone - gearing up didnt require grind as you could grab a sutiable weapon and set of armor just from the drops you would have gotten in that zone. From the Crystal Desert those collector items were max stat. You didnt need to grind in order to gear up. You only did grind in GW1 for the sake of looks alone.
ever heard of karma-vendors? The trick is: you don't have to grind the ressources to buy your specific loot in one place here. In this perspective GW1 was more of a grind than GW2.
"moving forward" is probably my least liked phrase, ever. It's a cop-out excuse for what they've already done, and tells me that they don't actually intend to fix what's already out there. ascended armor might be easier to get "moving forward", but the gems and backpieces are still super-grind and I'll bet they're going to remain that way.
I say remove fractals and ascended gear from the game completely, so the rest of the 99% of the game can be populated once more.
Maarius, on 01 December 2012 - 04:24 AM, said:
they didn't have to bring a content update between the 2 very close events halloween and christmas... instead they chose to pump out an update which gives us (among other things) a dungeon in a state dungeons should have been from the start.
So dungeons should have been mega-grind from the start? Because they were. And people complained. And they were changed. Twice. Giving a set amount of tokens at the completion of the dungeon was the best thing Anet did for the dungeons...adding the bags from bosses only helped more. Now I'll do a dungeon without worrying about repair costs. Before, if I felt that the group I was in was more likely to wipe than succeed at the boss battles, I'd leave, because money was at a premium (really, it still is due to the exorbitant gold sinks in this game) and the rewards were not up to the standards the dungeon difficulty set.
Right now, Fractals is that way. Sure, you have a chance at XYZ exotics/ascended loot, but mostly it's just the same old blues, greens, and occasional rare with added gimmicky frustration (do it EXACTLY THIS WAY or you fail!) and a whopping 5(FIVE!) tokens at the end. And the vendors require MORE tokens per item! I can get a full set of Arah armor for the same amount of fractal tokens required to get ONE exotic back piece, which requires 500 GLOBS OF ECTOPLASM to max stats on, among other things. Wut.
I'm currently fractals level 2. I only run fractals level 1, 7 times, to get my monthly achievement. They need to stop forcing me to do this grind-ass dungeon to get my monthly achievement that I was totally happy with doing in previous months. I have no interest in increasing the difficulty for completing said task.
It would be nice not to have the fractals, certainly. I remember that literally on the weekend they did the Lost Shores events I had got my guardian to lv 80, used a bunch of karma jugs and had (fortunately) the karma vendors unlocked to get her 5/6 of a power/toughness/vitality set I wanted for her. Now I haven't looked, but I'm going to bet that even on a busy server such as Desolation that most shrines are contested right now.
This bothers me in the same way that WoW expansions after TBC bothered me. A new island is released, and for the 1-1/2 years that expansion is current everyone is there. Aside from the odd alt struggling or new player, you're never going to run into another human being as everyone is gathered in the same place. In GW 2's case, I think Lion's Arch is the only place to have overflows as everyone is spamming fractals. Conversely, in WoW everyone sat in Orgrimmar or Stormwind spamming LFG or whatever and 99% of the game is untouched.
Granted I have no, as in zero, interest in any grinding of instances. I raided in WoW years ago and it killed any tolerance I had to repeating the same content over and over again for slightly better stats. IMO its boring, I'd rather play a game to be amazed by the storyline or areas, not repeating a minimal amount of content for a good year or so.
We'll see what happens but as someone's said, if people want a gear treadmill the odds are those players will go back to WoW or whatever as WoW just does better at that type of thing. I'm not belittling the game, it just is the last thing I'd want to spend my time on for the reason I stated.
Interestingly enough, I can't even find a party for level 3 fractals. I've been looking for the past hour and there are virtually no parties at all. It's easier to get a run to do CoE/CoF/AC. And I think I'm more or less the only one who wants to do this dungeon just because it's fun right now haha.
ever heard of karma-vendors? The trick is: you don't have to grind the ressources to buy your specific loot in one place here. In this perspective GW1 was more of a grind than GW2.
Thats exactly right. The comparison to GW1 would be the karma merchants - collectors, Exotics - max stat gear (1.5k) and legendary - elite gear (15k). Theres no stat difference between a 45,000 karma exotic and an exotic from a dungeon. The stats are the same for the legendary but have a different skin. The Ascended adds an entirely different level that isnt comparable to GW1.
On grind I disagree though - but its a matter for quantity IMO. Getting 2-5 white items dropped in one area to me is not more of a grind than attempting to farm 45,000 karma per piece of exotic armor though the result (max stat gear) would be essentially the same.
And if you're comparing GW1 to GW2 and the karma exotic/legendary tiers and the collector/ 1.5k/15k gear, it's obvious that GW2 is much harder to obtain max stat gear in. 42k karma vs a few collectibles...tens of gold to buy max stat exotic gear vs 8 platinum. And not 15x the time/cost...more like 150x the cost to get a legendary vs an exotic.
That's grind. Fractals are simply an increase in said grind by adding that new tier. But you can say that ascended and legendary are still the same tier, as legendary is the same stats as ascended.
Nope, legendaries are supposed to be bumped up in stat so they're equal to the highest tier available, which would be ascended. Legendary is always going to be the pinnacle of obtainable equipment.
Thanks for that. Huh, well that kind of goes against what they were saying which was that people who were willing to grind for hours should be able to get the best skin but not a stat advantage. It contradicts the idea that everything that was max stat would be the same with only a difference in skin to give people who want to put more effort in. The result is that we no longer have a skill over time equation as putting in more time now gives an advantage.
Dont know how I feel about that.
They really need to abandon all those dreams of being the WoW killer and whatnot.
Be a good game instead. No one gives a shit if WoW dies or not.
WoW is a simple game for simple minds, GW2 will never replace it, just remove your head from your ass and think about YOUR game Anet, not other games.
The result is that we no longer have a skill over time equation as putting in more time now gives an advantage.
Dont know how I feel about that.
It gives an advantage. But how big is it ? Is it big enough that you undeniably need ascended armor to progress ? Or is it like PvE skills and titles in GW1 : give a boost but aren't actually needed ?
I guess it really depends where the final tier of items ends up in terms of stats or specifically useful requirements. Its no secret that most players want to guarantee being able to do whatever their activity is with as little risk as possible. That usually mean having every advantage they can possibly have - maxed weapons, armor, consumables, experience of the activity etc
Its not long before optional becomes preferred then needed.
You only have to look at GW1 for a quick example of that. Are there any groups who run places like UW or FOW without consumables?
4
Robsy128, on 30 November 2012 - 01:17 AM, said:
