271 replies to this topic

[raspberry jam]

Robsy128, on 07 December 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

I know what quality means, thank you. As I said, quality doesn't enter the equation. 'Quality', 'character', 'aspect', 'attribute', 'feature', 'constitution', whatever you want to call it still doesn't enter the equation. Grinding is not quick. That was my statement before, and you've done nothing to prove otherwise aside from writing one sentence about quantity vs quality. You didn't elaborate at all, therefore it makes no sense.
Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games. Now the tasks themselves may be quick to do, but the overall rate of progression towards the reward? It's slow. Usually painfully slow.

Onto the actual argument itself, level 30 Fractals is hard if you have infusions. And how do you get infusions, anyway? By playing through the harder content. I can also safely say that it is harder content because a lot of people complained about the difficulty of all dungeons on release. Arenanet were prompt with their reply and said, more or less: 'good - they're meant to be hard.'
As I proved before, however, Guild Wars does not have more endgame content than Guild Wars 2 (at least, not at release). I don't really know about WoW's original endgame content because I only did one or two instances at level 80 in WoW before I got bored to tears and decided to move on. As you're measuring quantity here, you have to count what there is in both games.

Guild Wars (now):

• Go achievement hunting (which entailed getting elite skills, getting 100% map completion, redoing all of the campaigns in hard mode and PvP).
  
• 7 Elite Areas (2 of which can be called 'dungeons') (including Sorrow's Furnace, Tombs, Urgoz, UW, FoW, etc.)
  
• 18 dungeons (which were added in Eye of the North)
  
• Farming/grinding for better-looking gear.
  
• Competing in PvP

Guild Wars 2 (now):

• Achievement hunting (which entails 100% map completion, PvP, minigames, crafting, and more I can't remember).
  
• 9 Dungeons (each with 4 different paths that last just as long as one another. One could argue, therefore, that there are 36 dungeons, although it would be more as Fractals of the Mists has 9 random maps that last 15-20 minutes)
  
• Farming/grinding for better-looking gear.
  
• Crafting
  
• Competing in PvP

Of course, it's unfair to compare the endgame content of Guild Wars 2 to Guild Wars 1 because Guild Wars 1 has been around since 2005. I personally wasn't there at the launch. I started playing shortly after Nightfall was released. All I know is that hard mode wasn't added to the game until April of 2007. Sorrow's Furnace wasn't added to the game until 5 months after its release. Most of the other elite areas were added in campaigns and the dungeons (excluding Sorrow's Furnace and Tombs) were added with the expansion: Eye of the North. I'm sure I don't have to write out all of the maths, but I can conclude by saying that Guild Wars 2 has more endgame content than Guild Wars 1.

Your definition doesn't fit the case where they sell 'Sword of +100 power' in cash-shops.

Comparing songs to a video game is just bad. Songs are very linear, whereas games have a lot more to offer. Stopping to gather doesn't break the flow of the game because it's still part of the game. If you gathered whilst in the middle of combat, then yes, that would stop the flow of it. Your suggestion of walking over the node to gather the materials also provides no immersion whatsoever. People like to be immersed in the game world.


I'm not saying that there's a 100% chance that the person levelling up will come across the DE - I'm just saying that they're more likely to come across the dynamic events because they stick around for the chain events to get exp, money and karma. Therefore they're more likely to experience more content than the level 80 hopping around to the areas he wants to.

Clearly you didn't read my sentence. I said that it provides a sense of progressing. But sure, I'll write it out in simple sentences for you as you like jumping onto singular words for your arguments.
You're talking about progressing as a player - learning skills to do with the game mechanics.
I'm talking about character progression.
Both are valid forms of progression.

You apparently do not know what quality means, because while you first say that quality does not enter the equation, you - in the very next sentence - dismiss the grind on grounds of quality. But you are wrong in doing so, since grind (read Sinful01's definition of it) has nothing to do with spending time. "Quick" just talks about the quantity of grind. In other words, grind can be quick.

About Fractals: either you haven't played level 30 yet, or you are bad. I have played it and IMO it's not hard. And you "qualify" for level 30 by getting infusions in the earlier areas. By the time you reach level 30 for the first time, it'll be as hard as level 25 was when you reached level 25 for the first time. In other words, you haven't made any real progress. You're running in place.

Your list proves nothing. Also, it's incorrect (I'd call The Deep, DoA and Slaver's Exile elite areas, meaning that there's at least 8). You totally seem to ignore the fact that 9 is less than 17, or that 1 is less than 8. Above all you totally ignore that there is a single max-level world area in GW2, while even at release, half the GW1 world was max level, and currently it's far more than half, especially if you count HM.
Your "proof" isn't even a proof, but if it were, it would not even prove the thing that you say it is proving.

Also, of course, my definition (being that you pay for efficiency) would definitely cover a "Sword of +100 power" (assuming that "power" is a stat that confers efficiency in the game - it sure sounds like it).

Songs are linear... Did you ever stop to consider that the experience of playing a game is linear too? Not the execution of gameplay, but the sequence of feelings that the game evokes in you is a linear sequence. In particular with these kinds of games... You say you want to become a game designer. You should consider this carefully (the evocation of feelings being linear, I mean).
Yes, immersion is important, but the harvesting resources has no value of immersion. Imagine for a moment that you actually are immersed in the game... You actually are somewhat of a hero and you are on your way from X to Y to perform an important mission. The fate of a medium-size village or similar rests on your shoulders. And then you suddenly glimpse a pile of rocks in the corner of your eye! No longer considering your mission, you run over and laboriously pick at these rocks until some metal ore falls out. This ore will come in handy when you're crafting one of the two thousand worthless necklaces that you need to make to level up crafting until you can make equally worthless earrings instead... This is immersion to you?

Mm, you do make a point. He'll "miss out" on content that was expressly there to level up on. He'll probably consider himself lucky... There is no self-worth to simply see as many DEs as possible. Starting out at level 80 will still mean that he'll be able to seek out the ones he wants to play... Which ones would you seek out if you had that choice? If the whole world was suddenly just open to you?
None? Except the ones most rewarding, like people did with Plinx. Probably so.

Yes, I'm talking about progressing as a player. What you call character progression - just counting up numbers, how does that confer a sense of progression? Sure, in a way it's a countdown until the point where you can finally play your character as he was supposed to be played all along. But really it's just a stepwise modification of the game mechanics until you're out of steps... It's not real progress, nor even a "sense" of it if you think about it clearly enough. About as much "progress" as that your shoe size grew over the years when you were a child, but stopped as your feet stopped growing... and then claiming that that was your progress at walking, dancing, running.

[Roybe]

MazingerZ, on 27 November 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

That probably would have only lasted until the "shallow" power curve they keep braying on about.  Even if its a minimal increase, you ruin the WvWvW's concept of an even playing field, let along the idea that in order to see the latest tier of things to come, you need to have gone through the previous tiers.

WvW was never about an even playing field.  Only the Competitive PvP is meant to be balanced.

[Robsy128]

raspberry jam, on 10 December 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

WALL OF TEXT

By saying that grinding is not quick? You're seriously going to have to elaborate because I don't understand how you're trying to use 'quality'. The definition of grind is what I posted before: "Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games."  
The task itself may be quick, but the overall progress towards the reward (which is why you're grinding in the first place) is slow. If it takes 30 seconds to do a task, it's quick. But when you need to do 5000 tasks? It's slow.

People still find the dungeons hard. That's my point, really.

You completely ignored the fact that I was comparing Guild Wars VANILLA to Guild Wars 2 VANILLA. Meaning no expansions or additional content aside from the base game. I clarified this in the next paragraph. You really can't compare a game that has expansions and additional campaigns to a game that has none. And since we're measuring quantity here (which one has more endgame content) you have to count things up.

It's not the result that immerses you - it's the activity. Walking over a node and collecting ore without your character doing anything? How is that immersive? That just sounds like the game designers and animators got incredibly lazy and decided to make a half-made game.

I'd find the game incredibly boring if everything was opened up to me from the start in all honesty haha. I wouldn't know where to begin and I'd certainly get bored of being level 80 throughout my entire game time. As I said, I prefer the sense of progressing. I like the fact that I can't enter a certain area until I'm a certain level. Well, I can enter that area but I'll be destroyed in a matter of seconds. It adds another level of difficulty to the game, which a level 80 wouldn't really have unfortunately.

Edited by Robsy128, 10 December 2012 - 06:21 PM.

[raspberry jam]

Robsy128, on 10 December 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

By saying that grinding is not quick? You're seriously going to have to elaborate because I don't understand how you're trying to use 'quality'. The definition of grind is what I posted before: "Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games."  
The task itself may be quick, but the overall progress towards the reward (which is why you're grinding in the first place) is slow. If it takes 30 seconds to do a task, it's quick. But when you need to do 5000 tasks? It's slow.

People still find the dungeons hard. That's my point, really.

You completely ignored the fact that I was comparing Guild Wars VANILLA to Guild Wars 2 VANILLA. Meaning no expansions or additional content aside from the base game. I clarified this in the next paragraph. You really can't compare a game that has expansions and additional campaigns to a game that has none. And since we're measuring quantity here (which one has more endgame content) you have to count things up.

It's not the result that immerses you - it's the activity. Walking over a node and collecting ore without your character doing anything? How is that immersive? That just sounds like the game designers and animators got incredibly lazy and decided to make a half-made game.

I'd find the game incredibly boring if everything was opened up to me from the start in all honesty haha. I wouldn't know where to begin and I'd certainly get bored of being level 80 throughout my entire game time. As I said, I prefer the sense of progressing. I like the fact that I can't enter a certain area until I'm a certain level. Well, I can enter that area but I'll be destroyed in a matter of seconds. It adds another level of difficulty to the game, which a level 80 wouldn't really have unfortunately.

You are thinking of grind in the wrong way. Grind is originally referring to repetition, but Sinful01's definition is better, IMO:

"Grinding is the act of playing in a repetitive, unexciting, or otherwise un-enjoyable fashion in order to make faster progress."

Simply put, if you do unfun things in order to progress (which usually is desirable as it is seen to expand the possibilities of doing something fun), it is grind. I actually like the way that it was described in the GW1 marketing. They describe it as "preparing to have fun". It's extremely accurate, I think, because that's exactly what it is about. And it doesn't matter how long you prepare to have fun, just that you do. Thus, it's a qualitative concept... Since you asked.

People find the dungeons hard. Perhaps because they are slow and haven't gotten all the gear and infusions yet.

If you want to compare GW1 at release with GW2 at release, you should have done a list of GW1 at release. Don't bother, though, because the important part of the list looks like this:

GW1:

• Half the world is max level content
  
• Skill hunting is a challenge that helps you in PvP and gives a goal in PvE
  
• 2 elite areas that offers challenging content even after you have gotten your FoW suit
  
• Engaging PvP of different kinds, offering something for everyone

GW2:

• One max level area
  
• Main goal is building your legendary weapon, other goals are checklist stuff like visiting all map points in all areas
  
• Bunch of dungeons, most of them uninteresting, all of them uninteresting once you get the armor you want
  
• PvP is limited to running-through-empty-terrain simulator and domination mode without supporting structure (guild ladder? naaaah)

I dunno, GW1 still seems to offer more, actually. Especially since many long term goals are so separate.

Walking over a node to collect stuff is not immersive at all, I agree. But then again neither is watching a slow animation of harvesting it. How is that immersive? You just killed two mobs to get to an ore node... I'm not even considering the fact that a supposed hero ambushed and killed two sentient creatures just to get some metal. What I am considering is that the main excitement of this is that you hope to finish up the mining before they respawn. Immersion? What are you trying to immerse in here?

I know that you'd find it boring. You're used to being constricted by games... Being allowed to un-nerf your character slowly, being allowed by the game to enter new areas. That these areas were previously off limits (unless you were suicidal) is, however, not added difficulty. Because what is difficult about it? Sure, ok, the knowledge of which areas are off limits, maybe. But apart from that, the difficulty is artificial.
I see it differently... to me, an open world is more immersive, to return to that subject. Simply because it's more like the real world: you can go anywhere, you can do anything. There are things that are difficult or dangerous, things that'll kill you outright... But things that will kill you outright will do so no matter what. Difficulty or danger, you can overcome if you are good enough. They are actually difficult, not artificially so, and that is what "breaks the fourth wall" for me, what sucks me into the game world.

[Robsy128]

raspberry jam, on 10 December 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

WALL OF TEXT

Faster progress? Usually grinding is the only way to progress (in a MMO endgame, anyway). That said, unlocking skills in Guild Wars 2 isn't a grind. Swinging a sword or casting a spell is part of the combat, which makes up for a lot of the game. Yet you say that unlocking skills is a grind?

And why on earth would you prepare to have fun in a game? When I start a game up, I don't want to work towards unlocks just to have fun. I want to start the game up and play the game. It's what I did in Guild Wars, it's what I did in Guilds Wars 2 and it's what I've done in pretty much every game I've ever bought.

I was talking about all kinds of dungeons - not just Fractals. People still find AC hard and they have exotic gear. That was back before ascended gear came out. People still find CoE hard and they usually have full exotic gear. As far as I know, they haven't adjusted the dungeon difficulty.

I did do a list of GW1 at release, I just added the extras in as well and explained everything in the paragraph afterwards As I said, I don't want to write out the whole maths because I thought it would be fairly simple to work out - Guild Wars 2 has much more content. The levelling alone takes about 30-40 hours of game time and the maps are a lot bigger than GW1 (or they feel bigger, anyway).
As for your list, you can play any content in Guild Wars 2 at max level and still be rewarded for it.The main goal is not just building your legendary weapon. There are many goals - crafting, winning in WvW, completing the story, world completion, PvP.
As for the dungeons - that's your opinion. I know a lot of people who still run the dungeons even after they've acquired the weapons and armours they want for their characters. Not because they have to, but because they want to.
And Guild Wars 1? You don't get rewarded for going back to lower level areas, thus only half the world is open to you at max level (if you want to get rewards whilst playing).
Skill hunting is a challenge? What the... oh yes, pressing 'Capture Skill' is very hard whilst fighting a boss. It's really just another check-list thing. Once you have the skills you need, there's no reason at all to get the other skills aside from feeling like a completionist.
As I said, though: I do personally think Guild Wars 2 could do with many more PvP modes (like they had in Guild Wars 1) and elite areas like the Underworld and Fow. I will agree with that! But as for content, Guild Wars 2 feels a lot bigger and just feels like it has so much more to offer than vanilla Guild Wars 1.

It's immersive because you see your character interacting with the game world. It just adds a bit more realism rather than 'my character walked over a node - look! He magically got some ore.' But... how did he get the ore? 'With magic!' ... that's not a very good explanation . It just sounds like lazy game design. Whilst you're at it, you might as well walk up to an enemy and kill them straight away. It does away with all of that grinding down their health and watching silly combat animations.

If you visit an area at level 80, there's no real challenge. You just hit stuff and it dies eventually. You don't need to dodge, you don't really need to heal and you definitely don't need to really concentrate on what you're doing. But, if I go to Blazeridge Steppes at level 32, I have to concentrate on what's going on. I have to time my dodges perfectly to survive. I have to time my heals to survive. I need to time my elite and I need to know when to swap weapons, otherwise I'll be dead with 2 or 3 hits. It tests me as a player. A level 80 player doesn't have that, even when they go to dungeons. Trust me, I've been through them all. Dungeons are easy for me, so I have to find new ways to test myself.

Edited by Robsy128, 11 December 2012 - 05:39 PM.

[Lheimroo]

I think the misconception here is that if an activity is fun, it can never be grind.

Let me make it clear.. to me, to a lot of people, anything can become an unfun grind if we're forced to do it so much more than we ordinarily would choose to do so.

Fractals is a fun dungeon. By my own volition, I might do it forty or fifty times over the course of a year, or perhaps two.

Put me in front of Fractals and make me feel like I have to cram that many repetitions in in two months? I hate you. I despise what your game stands for. It's a grindtastic idiocy.

Edited by Lheimroo, 11 December 2012 - 12:31 PM.

[Cronos988]

Lheimroo, on 11 December 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

I think the misconception here is that if an activity is fun, it can never be grind.

Let me make it clear.. to me, to a lot of people, anything can become an unfun grind if we're forced to do it so much more than we ordinarily would choose to do so.

Fractals is a fun dungeon. By my own volition, I might do it forty or fifty times over the course of a year, or perhaps two.

Put me in front of Fractals and make me feel like I have to cram that many repetitions in in two months? I hate you. I despise what your game stands for. It's a grindtastic idiocy.

You are correct, but I think there is no misconception.

"Fun" is just a subjective feeling, bound to many conditions. It cannot be ascribed to certains tasks objectively. So it is no contradiction to state both that a) "Grind can never be fun" and b )  "the same task can be fun for a certain person under certain circumstances and at the same time be grind for a different person or under different circumstances".

I actually think equating grind with "an activity within a game that is no fun" is a very enlightening one. Because what it tells us is that the task itself is unimportant. What matters is whether the task is fully optional or not. The GW 2 developers have at least partly understood this, judging by how many different ways to reach max level there are. But also keep in mind that regarding a task as "mandatory" can often be only a subjective feeling - A perfectionist may "need" 100% map completion, even though other players will not regard that task as mandatory. That could actually apply to ascended gear and explain why some people experience it as mandatory grind while others simply regard it as an additional option.

Edited by Cronos988, 11 December 2012 - 01:59 PM.

[Sinful01]

Robsy128, on 10 December 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

Faster progress? Usually grinding is the only way to progress (in a MMO endgame, anyway).

Why?   Does this have to be the way?

Quote

That said, unlocking skills in Guild Wars 2 isn't a grind. Swinging a sword or casting a spell is part of the combat, which makes up for a lot of the game. Yet you say that unlocking skills is a grind?

Personally I wouldn't classify it as too much of a grind because it "just happens" within 2 minutes of picking up a weapon (but it is a grind because it is unfun to have to play for a little bit without most your weapon skills).  That being said, it is also asinine.  Why have the player 'unlock' weapon skills if they basically unlock automatically in less than 5 minutes?  It feels like instead of just throwing the idea out when they realized it would annoy people having to run around with only their autoattack for hours, they just shortened the 'time to unlock the bar' so sharply you should just begin with them all unlocked anyway.

It takes 5 minutes to unlock skills that you are then stuck with, unchanging, for an eternity.

Quote

And why on earth would you prepare to have fun in a game? When I start a game up, I don't want to work towards unlocks just to have fun. I want to start the game up and play the game. It's what I did in Guild Wars, it's what I did in Guilds Wars 2 and it's what I've done in pretty much every game I've ever bought.

I'd rather not be forced to 'prepare to have fun' but that is how games are designed (especially MMOs).  They want to slow you down ... make you grind ... force you to jump through hoops by making content locked to you.

"Awesome, a new dungeon got added.  I want to go check it out!" - oh wait, in many games you cannot. First thou must embark on a heroic quest to collect a tier of gear to give you the ability to set foot in the dungeon.
"Ok fine, a quest then.  Heroic you say?" - well no ... you must sit in one spot and farm a single spawn for so long it becomes painful to do.
"ARGH!  Ok fine, I will do so... I will farm said spot for hours until I am fully prepared to go actually have fun and do what I really want to do." - wait!  You're going to sit there and do it all at once?!  Uhm .. no .. wait here a second.   ... ... ... Ok, back.  Sorry, it looks like, suddenly, you're locked out of completing that task but once a day! Alas, it looks like you'll be spending the next two weeks, every night, doing this same thing in the hopes of an RNG chance to progress.
"Wow this feels both heroic and epic. Sarcasm intended."

(Personally I'd enjoy either reaching max level & equipment fast and then being free to "do as you please" - or, have game where levels and equipment don't matter much so you aren't artificially blockaded from going and doing something you want to have fun doing unless you grind an unfun thing first.)

New content comes out and 'hardcore' 'pro-grind' people plow through it and get the stuff too fast. The developers freak out, and add grind afterward to slow people down... because, well, those guys just blew through it so we need to pump the brakes.  Meanwhile, pro-grind-guy demands more new grind.

Quote

It's immersive because you see your character interacting with the game world. It just adds a bit more realism rather than 'my character walked over a node - look! He magically got some ore.' But... how did he get the ore? 'With magic!' ... that's not a very good explanation . It just sounds like lazy game design. Whilst you're at it, you might as well walk up to an enemy and kill them straight away. It does away with all of that grinding down their health and watching silly combat animations.

I think this issue is just different definitions of "immersion".  Neither is incorrect.

To you: Immersion = your character performs tasks that make physical sense; the world responds as a physical world would.  Want ore?  You whack it with a pick because that is how ore 'happens'.  You feel immersed because ore comes from pick+rock and on screen you see pick+rock.

raspberry jam is looking at immersion on a more 'motivational' spectrum. To 'jam, immersion is 'why the hell is my character, whom is trying to rescue that batch of kittens from that harpy going to eat them, taking a break to run around harvesting trees and ore?"

Now, someone's response may be "well then don't harvest it" "you don't have to" but it puts the player at a disadvantage not to do so. You're missing out on cash, in a cash-starved game, if you skip harvesting ... even if you don't enjoy harvesting.

'jam would, if the ore/wood/whatever is so important, rather just be handed the stuff so there is no break up in the "omg we gotta save those kittens" quest.  (I'm assuming this all, of course, from reading the thread.  I have been known to be wrong sometimes )

Quote

A level 80 player doesn't have that, even when they go to dungeons. Trust me, I've been through them all. Dungeons are easy for me, so I have to find new ways to test myself.

The next "upgrade" (vertical progression) isn't rewarded based on challenge, but merely time-spent.

MMO's might as well just give you a popup (like the daily quest reward chest) every X amount of time you are logged in.  "Congrats - here is your 'I played for 4 hours' chest!"

Edited by Sinful01, 11 December 2012 - 05:17 PM.

[Robsy128]

Sinful01, on 11 December 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

Why?   Does this have to be the way?



Personally I wouldn't classify it as too much of a grind because it "just happens" within 2 minutes of picking up a weapon (but it is a grind because it is unfun to have to play for a little bit without most your weapon skills).  That being said, it is also asinine.  Why have the player 'unlock' weapon skills if they basically unlock automatically in less than 5 minutes?  It feels like instead of just throwing the idea out when they realized it would annoy people having to run around with only their autoattack for hours, they just shortened the 'time to unlock the bar' so sharply you should just begin with them all unlocked anyway.

It takes 5 minutes to unlock skills that you are then stuck with, unchanging, for an eternity.


I'd rather not be forced to 'prepare to have fun' but that is how games are designed (especially MMOs).  They want to slow you down ... make you grind ... force you to jump through hoops by making content locked to you.

"Awesome, a new dungeon got added.  I want to go check it out!" - oh wait, in many games you cannot. First thou must embark on a heroic quest to collect a tier of gear to give you the ability to set foot in the dungeon.
"Ok fine, a quest then.  Heroic you say?" - well no ... you must sit in one spot and farm a single spawn for so long it becomes painful to do.
"ARGH!  Ok fine, I will do so... I will farm said spot for hours until I am fully prepared to go actually have fun and do what I really want to do." - wait!  You're going to sit there and do it all at once?!  Uhm .. no .. wait here a second.   ... ... ... Ok, back.  Sorry, it looks like, suddenly, you're locked out of completing that task but once a day! Alas, it looks like you'll be spending the next two weeks, every night, doing this same thing in the hopes of an RNG chance to progress.
"Wow this feels both heroic and epic. Sarcasm intended."

(Personally I'd enjoy either reaching max level & equipment fast and then being free to "do as you please" - or, have game where levels and equipment don't matter much so you aren't artificially blockaded from going and doing something you want to have fun doing unless you grind an unfun thing first.)

New content comes out and 'hardcore' 'pro-grind' people plow through it and get the stuff too fast. The developers freak out, and add grind afterward to slow people down... because, well, those guys just blew through it so we need to pump the brakes.  Meanwhile, pro-grind-guy demands more new grind.




I think this issue is just different definitions of "immersion".  Neither is incorrect.

To you: Immersion = your character performs tasks that make physical sense; the world responds as a physical world would.  Want ore?  You whack it with a pick because that is how ore 'happens'.  You feel immersed because ore comes from pick+rock and on screen you see pick+rock.

raspberry jam is looking at immersion on a more 'motivational' spectrum. To 'jam, immersion is 'why the hell is my character, whom is trying to rescue that batch of kittens from that harpy going to eat them, taking a break to run around harvesting trees and ore?"

Now, someone's response may be "well then don't harvest it" "you don't have to" but it puts the player at a disadvantage not to do so. You're missing out on cash, in a cash-starved game, if you skip harvesting ... even if you don't enjoy harvesting.

'jam would, if the ore/wood/whatever is so important, rather just be handed the stuff so there is no break up in the "omg we gotta save those kittens" quest.  (I'm assuming this all, of course, from reading the thread.  I have been known to be wrong sometimes )



The next "upgrade" (vertical progression) isn't rewarded based on challenge, but merely time-spent.

MMO's might as well just give you a popup (like the daily quest reward chest) every X amount of time you are logged in.  "Congrats - here is your 'I played for 4 hours' chest!"

It shouldn't be this way - I agree! You should really do the content that you find fun, get rewarded for it and that's that, really. But for some reason in MMOs they like you to grind for that epic bit of gear or whatever. I can see why they added it in subscription MMOs, but in a buy to play game like Guild Wars 2? Eh. I'm hoping they'll fix it soon, or at least tell us when it's supposedly 'fixed' so we can make a judgement.

True... personally I like unlocking the skills. It can be a pain sometimes, but once you have them you feel powerful. It also gives you a chance to learn what each skill does without constantly holding your mouse over the button to read the information, which is quite helpful when you just want to play. That was the thing I hated in Guild Wars - I always had to stop and read the description to know what the next skill was going to do. It's worse for me as well because I usually press the number keys for quickness.

As for the content lock-out, I see what you mean. That can be irritating, but at the same time that's almost always how games nowadays work. Not so much the whole 'collect this new piece of epic gear to do this dungeon,' but you always have to do a level before the next one or you have to complete a puzzle before you can enter the boss fight, etc. I think Guild Wars 2 does things better as it doesn't stop you from playing the content once you've unlocked it (which is what a lot of MMOs nowadays do for some reason - probably related to the subscription fee again).
I find the content leading up to the dungeons to be quite fun, so I'm just unlocking even more fun content. I actually hardly bothered with dungeons when I was playing Guild Wars 2 through to 80 for my first time simply because I was still having a blast in the game world. I decided to do the dungeons at level 80 because by then I had seen a lot of the world (and the parts I hadn't seen I vowed to do on my other characters) and then I started playing through dungeons. I haven't even done half of the dungeons yet because I'm finding the ones I'm doing at the moment to be incredibly fun

I see what you mean with the immersion. That said, however, just collecting it sounds like an easy way to get stuff. In an MMO, you usually have to put more than the basic effort in to reap the rewards. Want that epic skin? Yeah, work for it. It just provides someone with a feeling of reward for doing all of that content, regardless of whether they found it fun and non-grindy or unfun and grindy.

I think that's where vertical progression fails. None of us really want another new tier of gear - we want more content, and hopefully more challenging content that test us as players, not test the statistics we have on our characters.

Hopefully that makes sense haha. I'm not trying to be pushy or whatever, but that's the way I see it.

Edited by Robsy128, 11 December 2012 - 06:17 PM.

[DuskWolf]

What makes grinding for me is whether it's fun or not. Playing a Mario level more than once might be grinding, but it can be fun, because you're trying to perfect your run through it. It tickles parts of the brain with risk-reward, every time, it provides thrills. This is true of Mass Effect as well, even on Silver difficulty you can be caught unawares. I'm not ashamed to admit that I had three primes pull a stealth manoeuvre on me at one point. Flanking me when I was playing with just one other guy and locking me down into a corner. I was impressed by that.

Now, in GW2, I don't need to worry about being flanked. All maps are open and the enemies just take the shortest line to me. All I do is stand in the same spot for 95% of the time (unless there's a GASP red circle) and press 2 for 95% of the time (unless I need to heal or do something more), and that's that. That's not exciting. That's pushing a button. Push button. Push button. Push button. Push button. Push button. Push button. GET PELLET. Now, for some people, the GET PELLET moment is enough to warrant all of the grinding. But not for me.

See, I don't give a shit about the pellet. I'm playing games for fun, not for rewards. Well, okay, that's not true. I'm playing games for a reward in enjoyment, but not a reward in numbers. I want there to be the thrill of succeeding at a decently constructed obstacle. That's all the reward I need. So the reward in numbers is just pellets. In GW2 I'm just a mouse who pushed the big, red button to get a numbered pellet.

So all I'm looking at is that I just pushed button *20 in order to reach the GET PELLET point. And that's all I'm doing. I'm not using my brain to think tactically (like in ME3), I'm not using my reflexes for quick responses (like in ME3)... so what do I do?

Push button.

Push button.

Push button.

Push button.

Push button.

GET PELLET.

And... that's not enough for me. For others here, it clearly is. But I require my games to actually be fun.

---Edit----

I'm doing my best to explain my position here. If you look at GW2 honestly, you can see that the dodge roll is useless. Why? The combat is basically a love letter to WoW. That means that I'm never having to use the two things I like using in games: My brain, and my reflexes. The former is my tactical capability, the latter is my observational skills and my ability to respond quickly based upon that.

Maybe I'm just too old school for my own good. But GW2 could be almost played by a pecking bird. This is why it's so easy to write bots for. Consider this: There are bots which can play GW2, but not bots which can play ME3 (not even on the lowest difficulty). Why is that?

You all know what I'm saying is true, and the bot thing proves it. The closest you can get in ME3 is an aim bot. But it still can't play the game, because it can't think tactically, and it doesn't know how to respond to things like being pinned down. You'd basically have to have access to how the game's own AI is working to be be able to peroperly make a bot for it.

The more brainless a game is, the easier it is to make a bot for it.

The more brainless a game is, the less fun it is for me.

What I'm saying here is, essentially: If a bot can do it, it's grind.

Edited by DuskWolf, 11 December 2012 - 07:27 PM.

[Sinnacle]

DuskWolf, on 11 December 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

Quote

Now, in GW2, I don't need to worry about being flanked. All maps are open and the enemies just take the shortest line to me. All I do is stand in the same spot for 95% of the time (unless there's a GASP red circle) and press 2 for 95% of the time (unless I need to heal or do something more), and that's that. That's not exciting. That's pushing a button. Push button. Push button. Push button. Push button. Push button. Push button. GET PELLET. Now, for some people, the GET PELLET moment is enough to warrant all of the grinding. But not for me.

What?  You must never step in a dungeon or fractals at all or WvW or PvP.  Or you have the most toughness and vitality ever.  

Quote

I'm doing my best to explain my position here. If you look at GW2 honestly, you can see that the dodge roll is useless. Why? The combat is basically a love letter to WoW. That means that I'm never having to use the two things I like using in games: My brain, and my reflexes. The former is my tactical capability, the latter is my observational skills and my ability to respond quickly based upon that.

No way your playing the same game I am.

Dodge roll is vital to staying alive.  If you go back early in the games life you will see a ton of posts about people saying oh I get insta gibed because bosses had no tell on when they use their insta gibbed ability if they had one.

The bots dont farm dungeons they farm regular world mobs which yes are easy.  They don't go in dungeons because they can't do that.  Not all real world mobs are easy though.  Take a veteran giant over to 3 ranger bots and watch him roll them quickly.   Regular orr mobs yea sure.  

So dodge is useless against what exactly?

Champion risen Abomination outside caer?

Brood mother outside R&D on orr?

Howling king?

Colossus Rambus?

I could go on and on there is a ton of places I can think of that if you don't dodge you can die or be close to it and or be less effective because you have to take the time to heal and since you didnt dodge and are healing you aren't dpsing.  

WvW you better dodge or your better off guarding a keep on a arrow cart same with sPvP just don't enter if you don't dodge at all.

[Solstice]

Sinnacle, on 11 December 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

What?  You must never step in a dungeon or fractals at all or WvW or PvP.  Or you have the most toughness and vitality ever.  

*shrug*

Duskwolf has always talked in broad generalities with regards to GW2, never really revealing the extent of his PvE experience. As you aptly point out, comments like “dodge roll is useless” raises certain questions on the breadth & depth of experience even in the PvE environment. Although profession choice could also play its part . That is not to say his comments are not without merit, the AI is pretty basic and on the same level as GW1.

But the answer is not that simple as Arenanet could simply lack the resources or expertise to implement the sort of AI desired extensively throughout the game. Or simply lack the budgetary requirements that would be needed to support the server infrastructure necessary to cope with the extra processing cycles I assume is necessary with more complex AI.

Edited by Solstice, 11 December 2012 - 08:38 PM.

[Craywulf]

Quote

"Grinding is the act of playing in a repetitive, unexciting, or otherwise un-enjoyable fashion in order to make faster progress."

This is entirely false definition. What this is....boring, not grinding. Boredom is entirely subjective.

Grinding is about doing repetitive actions to make progress. Some players are not bored by repetition, some are. A developer may have to implement some repetition in order to justify the progress (reward). A good developer is one that can avoid repetitive game mechanics, but there are cases where repetition simply isn't avoidable, so they need provide an accurate amount of progress (reward) for repetitive gameplay.

Whether you enjoy or hate repetitive gameplay, has nothing to do with defining it as grind.

[Jump_N_Move]

Craywulf, on 11 December 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

Quote

"Grinding is the act of playing in a repetitive, unexciting, or otherwise un-enjoyable fashion in order to make faster progress."

This is entirely false definition. What this is....boring, not grinding. Boredom is entirely subjective.

Grinding is about doing repetitive actions to make progress.

lolwut?

You just said the same thing, but added a remark about boredom.

[raspberry jam]

Robsy128, on 10 December 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

Faster progress? Usually grinding is the only way to progress (in a MMO endgame, anyway). That said, unlocking skills in Guild Wars 2 isn't a grind. Swinging a sword or casting a spell is part of the combat, which makes up for a lot of the game. Yet you say that unlocking skills is a grind?

And why on earth would you prepare to have fun in a game? When I start a game up, I don't want to work towards unlocks just to have fun. I want to start the game up and play the game. It's what I did in Guild Wars, it's what I did in Guilds Wars 2 and it's what I've done in pretty much every game I've ever bought.

I was talking about all kinds of dungeons - not just Fractals. People still find AC hard and they have exotic gear. That was back before ascended gear came out. People still find CoE hard and they usually have full exotic gear. As far as I know, they haven't adjusted the dungeon difficulty.

I did do a list of GW1 at release, I just added the extras in as well and explained everything in the paragraph afterwards As I said, I don't want to write out the whole maths because I thought it would be fairly simple to work out - Guild Wars 2 has much more content. The levelling alone takes about 30-40 hours of game time and the maps are a lot bigger than GW1 (or they feel bigger, anyway).
As for your list, you can play any content in Guild Wars 2 at max level and still be rewarded for it.The main goal is not just building your legendary weapon. There are many goals - crafting, winning in WvW, completing the story, world completion, PvP.
As for the dungeons - that's your opinion. I know a lot of people who still run the dungeons even after they've acquired the weapons and armours they want for their characters. Not because they have to, but because they want to.
And Guild Wars 1? You don't get rewarded for going back to lower level areas, thus only half the world is open to you at max level (if you want to get rewards whilst playing).
Skill hunting is a challenge? What the... oh yes, pressing 'Capture Skill' is very hard whilst fighting a boss. It's really just another check-list thing. Once you have the skills you need, there's no reason at all to get the other skills aside from feeling like a completionist.
As I said, though: I do personally think Guild Wars 2 could do with many more PvP modes (like they had in Guild Wars 1) and elite areas like the Underworld and Fow. I will agree with that! But as for content, Guild Wars 2 feels a lot bigger and just feels like it has so much more to offer than vanilla Guild Wars 1.

It's immersive because you see your character interacting with the game world. It just adds a bit more realism rather than 'my character walked over a node - look! He magically got some ore.' But... how did he get the ore? 'With magic!' ... that's not a very good explanation . It just sounds like lazy game design. Whilst you're at it, you might as well walk up to an enemy and kill them straight away. It does away with all of that grinding down their health and watching silly combat animations.

If you visit an area at level 80, there's no real challenge. You just hit stuff and it dies eventually. You don't need to dodge, you don't really need to heal and you definitely don't need to really concentrate on what you're doing. But, if I go to Blazeridge Steppes at level 32, I have to concentrate on what's going on. I have to time my dodges perfectly to survive. I have to time my heals to survive. I need to time my elite and I need to know when to swap weapons, otherwise I'll be dead with 2 or 3 hits. It tests me as a player. A level 80 player doesn't have that, even when they go to dungeons. Trust me, I've been through them all. Dungeons are easy for me, so I have to find new ways to test myself.

Unlocking skills in GW2 doesn't have to be a grind, but it does encourage it. Especially when you get a certain weapon at like level 15 or so (meaning you're not just starting, you have played a couple of sessions at least), you have had it before in PvP or on other characters, you know the entire skillset of the weapon... And you still have to unlock the damn thing.
Grind is not the only way to progress in MMOs. You can play any MMO "like you play GTA" as some other poster put it... Yes, the single-source gear grind at the end of WoW clones can't be played like that. But the rest can.

That something is part of a game, even if it is an important or intrinsic part, doesn't mean that it's not grind. Swinging a sword is part of combat, and can easily be grindy. In fact that was what Colin's oh so famous quote was about...?

Exactly, why would you ever prepare to have fun instead of just having fun? But that is what grind is, and that is what GW2 is. What you yourself describe - "the sense of progression" or not being able to enter an area until you are at a certain level - is exactly that. What's fun about being prevented access? Oh, the apprehension, of course, the feeling you get when you are looking forward to being let in there. Because it's "fun" in there - the grass is greener on the other side of the fence kind of thing - so you level up in order to get in there, and that is preparing to have fun.

GW2 has more content if you take the worthless heart quests and the empty, almost machine generated areas of some zones as content - but we were talking about endgame content, and GW1 had more of that at release. Yes you can go anywhere in GW2, you can go anywhere in GW1 as well. Rewards in low-level areas in GW2 suck ass (just like they did in GW1 - apart from the titan quests, of course, but those were added with Sorrow's Furnace), and since rewards is the only reason to lift a single finger in GW2, no one does that.

Skill capping in GW1 was not a checklist thing. Captured elites were unlocked for your account, and thus you could use them in PvP. Which really came in handy when you thought that one profession is fun in PvE and you focus on a completely different one in PvP. As I said before, everything you say about GW1 leads me to believe that you didn't even play the game.

Not a very good explanation? You don't know how to create immersion, do you? Let me tell you, it has nothing to do with credible explanations of things. You can easily feel immersed in an FPS even though your character heals by stepping on health packs. Because the health packs is not part of the hyperreality.... they are core to the game itself (the actual mechanics) but the actual detail of applying bandages etc. is skipped over because it would break the flow of the game. That flow (not to be mistaken for the "flow" stress state, that's interesting too but not what I mean at all - I'm talking about the flow, the micro-pace if you will, of the game itself) is how you create immersion. You can create a whole different feeling by breaking, or thrashing, it. But that feeling is not immersion... It is the soft daze that you see people in when they play games like WoW, Farmville, GW2.
Picking resources from a node isn't about interacting with the game world. What most players see is an animation and some ore popping up in a pickup window. Nothing more.

Anyway, yes, if you go to Blazeridge at level 23 it will test your skill... Until you manage to do something, and then it will force your level up until that area no longer tests anything, because you are level 80 now. The enemies will still attack in the same way, and you can still avoid them in the same way as before... But now you don't need to, because for some reason you have... armored skin or something...?
This change of rules completely breaks any immersion whatsoever.

[Sinful01]

Craywulf, on 11 December 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

This is entirely false definition. What this is....boring, not grinding. Boredom is entirely subjective.

Grinding is about doing repetitive actions to make progress. Some players are not bored by repetition, some are. A developer may have to implement some repetition in order to justify the progress (reward). A good developer is one that can avoid repetitive game mechanics, but there are cases where repetition simply isn't avoidable, so they need provide an accurate amount of progress (reward) for repetitive gameplay.

Whether you enjoy or hate repetitive gameplay, has nothing to do with defining it as grind.

Wait, what?

You cannot argue it is an "entirely false definition" if you then use nearly the whole quote in its entirety to correct the that definition.



What I quoted from the article: "Grinding is the act of playing in a repetitive, unexciting, or otherwise un-enjoyable fashion in order to make faster progress."


What you said: "Grinding is the act of playing in a repetitive, unexciting, or otherwise un-enjoyable fashion in order to make faster progress."

Barring my argument with your wording ... if you're saying "a grind is a grind even if you don't find it boring", well that I'd personally agree with 100%.

Many people wouldn't agree though. "Doing a dungeon 20 times for my armor is a grind to me" on this forum at times (and others, the official GW2 forums for one) gets responded to with "NO IT ISN'T IT IS FUN!"

So that is why those middle bits about it being unpleasant are there, because people seem to want to define grind as being unpleasant.  Well, more apt, many people wouldn't recognize a grind as a grind if they're having 'fun'.

[Sinnacle]

Unlocking skills in Guild Wars 2 isn't a grind at all.  You will eventually have the sp to get the next skill pretty quickly.  Skill points are placed through out the zones pretty much to encourage exploration.  I don't like map completion its not really my thing but I will do it and I know it benefits me down the road.

When ever Anet does any kind of event they usually do it all over the map if I had never a reason to explore those area of the map because everything was given to me then I would have to travel there anyway.  

What they did was try to encourage people to try other areas of the game that they would otherwise not ever enter.  Thats why skill points are in the WvW map for instance.

[Robsy128]

raspberry jam, on 12 December 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

Unlocking skills in GW2 doesn't have to be a grind, but it does encourage it. Especially when you get a certain weapon at like level 15 or so (meaning you're not just starting, you have played a couple of sessions at least), you have had it before in PvP or on other characters, you know the entire skillset of the weapon... And you still have to unlock the damn thing.
Grind is not the only way to progress in MMOs. You can play any MMO "like you play GTA" as some other poster put it... Yes, the single-source gear grind at the end of WoW clones can't be played like that. But the rest can.

That something is part of a game, even if it is an important or intrinsic part, doesn't mean that it's not grind. Swinging a sword is part of combat, and can easily be grindy. In fact that was what Colin's oh so famous quote was about...?

Exactly, why would you ever prepare to have fun instead of just having fun? But that is what grind is, and that is what GW2 is. What you yourself describe - "the sense of progression" or not being able to enter an area until you are at a certain level - is exactly that. What's fun about being prevented access? Oh, the apprehension, of course, the feeling you get when you are looking forward to being let in there. Because it's "fun" in there - the grass is greener on the other side of the fence kind of thing - so you level up in order to get in there, and that is preparing to have fun.

GW2 has more content if you take the worthless heart quests and the empty, almost machine generated areas of some zones as content - but we were talking about endgame content, and GW1 had more of that at release. Yes you can go anywhere in GW2, you can go anywhere in GW1 as well. Rewards in low-level areas in GW2 suck ass (just like they did in GW1 - apart from the titan quests, of course, but those were added with Sorrow's Furnace), and since rewards is the only reason to lift a single finger in GW2, no one does that.

Skill capping in GW1 was not a checklist thing. Captured elites were unlocked for your account, and thus you could use them in PvP. Which really came in handy when you thought that one profession is fun in PvE and you focus on a completely different one in PvP. As I said before, everything you say about GW1 leads me to believe that you didn't even play the game.

Not a very good explanation? You don't know how to create immersion, do you? Let me tell you, it has nothing to do with credible explanations of things. You can easily feel immersed in an FPS even though your character heals by stepping on health packs. Because the health packs is not part of the hyperreality.... they are core to the game itself (the actual mechanics) but the actual detail of applying bandages etc. is skipped over because it would break the flow of the game. That flow (not to be mistaken for the "flow" stress state, that's interesting too but not what I mean at all - I'm talking about the flow, the micro-pace if you will, of the game itself) is how you create immersion. You can create a whole different feeling by breaking, or thrashing, it. But that feeling is not immersion... It is the soft daze that you see people in when they play games like WoW, Farmville, GW2.
Picking resources from a node isn't about interacting with the game world. What most players see is an animation and some ore popping up in a pickup window. Nothing more.

Anyway, yes, if you go to Blazeridge at level 23 it will test your skill... Until you manage to do something, and then it will force your level up until that area no longer tests anything, because you are level 80 now. The enemies will still attack in the same way, and you can still avoid them in the same way as before... But now you don't need to, because for some reason you have... armored skin or something...?
This change of rules completely breaks any immersion whatsoever.

I'm fairly sure the skills are different when you use the same weapon on a different profession. For example, a ranger with a longbow has different skills to a warrior with a longbow. As I said before, it allows you to learn the skills. They're fairly easy to unlock as well. It barely takes 5 minutes. As for having it before in PvP... well, that's PvP. You also had 80 levels in PvP - it doesn't mean you automatically get that as well in PvE. They're separate for a reason.
As for progressing in other MMOs, grinding is the only way forwards. You have to grind to get the next bit of gear. WoW had it, Aion had it, SW:ToR had it. I'm sure other MMOs have it as well. Of course, there are probably a few exceptions somewhere.

Colin's quote was about hitting enemies that were just standing in a field. They weren't attacking the farm like the farmer had told you in the wall of text. They were just standing there eating some grass. As for the "swinging a sword is part of combat and can easily be grindy", well that can be said about any game involving combat. In halo you shoot a gun. In Dark Souls you swing a sword. In Assassin's Creed you use daggers. So going by that, every game out there has grind (combat wise).

I see where you're coming from when you say you're preparing to have fun in Guild Wars 2, but that's your opinion. A lot of people, myself included, find the content fun in the beginning. We like the personal story, we like the combat, we like the heart quests and we like the dynamic events. So when we come across an area we don't have access to, we just think 'oh well, I'm having a blast right now so I'll come to that fun content after I've gone through all of this fun content.' Of course, it's not all fun. There are some parts that are stupid or boring, but that can be said about any game really.

I was talking about endgame content as well. As for the rewards in lower level areas, you get level 80 stuff in the lower level areas if you're level 80. Would you use them? No, not necessarily, but you can sell them for money and you get about the same amount of money as you would from selling the junk you get in Orr. Whereas in Guild Wars 1, if you went back to the lower level areas, you'd be crippling yourself because there's nothing of worth there for you at level 20. So really, only half the world is playable at level 20.

Did I say that you couldn't use the skills you unlocked in PvE in PvP in Guild Wars? No. Once you had the skills you needed for a certain type of build, that was it. There was no reason at all to get the other elite skills. For each profession in Guild Wars, I had about 5 elite skills which made up the best builds in the game for both PvE and PvP. Considering there are between 15-36 elite skills in total for each profession in Guild Wars, I can safely say that I didn't need the others unless I wanted to feel like a completionist.

Credible explanations are a form of immersion for some. What you described is another form of immersion. Both are valid forms, as another poster already said on here.

When I was talking about Blazeridge Steppes, I wasn't talking about immersion

[Sinful01]

Robsy128, on 12 December 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

I was talking about endgame content as well. As for the rewards in lower level areas, you get level 80 stuff in the lower level areas if you're level 80. Would you use them? No, not necessarily, but you can sell them for money and you get about the same amount of money as you would from selling the junk you get in Orr. Whereas in Guild Wars 1, if you went back to the lower level areas, you'd be crippling yourself because there's nothing of worth there for you at level 20. So really, only half the world is playable at level 20.

Do you, in GW2?

While you get some junk vendor trash loots from lower level zones - i.e. finding a level 76 blue in a level 20 zone as a level 80 character - I'm pretty positive you don't get a shot at rares until zones up to and including 35 levels lower than you.  So a level 80 can get level 80 rares (super rarely) or exotics (mega ultra super rarely) from level 55+ zones only.

Then, toss in that nodes obviously don't scale.  So an 80 in Orr will find Ori as they kill things, but an 80 in Queensdale is stuck with Copper.

There is a distinct disadvantage to going to areas under your level.  While you do get "some stuff" to sell, you're giving up your guaranteed gathering cash, as well as your huge RNG longshot of finding a rare or exotic.

Edited by Sinful01, 12 December 2012 - 08:48 PM.

[Cronos988]

Sinful01, on 12 December 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

So that is why those middle bits about it being unpleasant are there, because people seem to want to define grind as being unpleasant.  Well, more apt, many people wouldn't recognize a grind as a grind if they're having 'fun'.

No offense, but this sounds a lot like you want to tell other people when they are having fun and when they aren't.
This whole VP debate has the tendency to devalue players that enjoy VP progressing by characterising them as mindless and claiming they aren't actually having fun, but are unable to recognize it (not that I am saying that you think like that or try to make that point, just that I feel there is a subtext like that to the general debate).

But when I think about it, I had a lot of fun farming areas back in Diablo 2, which was at that point purely "grinding". Was it smart to spend hours clicking away in a videogame? probably not. But does it follow it wasn't "really" fun?

[raspberry jam]

Robsy128, on 12 December 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

I'm fairly sure the skills are different when you use the same weapon on a different profession. For example, a ranger with a longbow has different skills to a warrior with a longbow. As I said before, it allows you to learn the skills. They're fairly easy to unlock as well. It barely takes 5 minutes. As for having it before in PvP... well, that's PvP. You also had 80 levels in PvP - it doesn't mean you automatically get that as well in PvE. They're separate for a reason.
As for progressing in other MMOs, grinding is the only way forwards. You have to grind to get the next bit of gear. WoW had it, Aion had it, SW:ToR had it. I'm sure other MMOs have it as well. Of course, there are probably a few exceptions somewhere.

Colin's quote was about hitting enemies that were just standing in a field. They weren't attacking the farm like the farmer had told you in the wall of text. They were just standing there eating some grass. As for the "swinging a sword is part of combat and can easily be grindy", well that can be said about any game involving combat. In halo you shoot a gun. In Dark Souls you swing a sword. In Assassin's Creed you use daggers. So going by that, every game out there has grind (combat wise).

I see where you're coming from when you say you're preparing to have fun in Guild Wars 2, but that's your opinion. A lot of people, myself included, find the content fun in the beginning. We like the personal story, we like the combat, we like the heart quests and we like the dynamic events. So when we come across an area we don't have access to, we just think 'oh well, I'm having a blast right now so I'll come to that fun content after I've gone through all of this fun content.' Of course, it's not all fun. There are some parts that are stupid or boring, but that can be said about any game really.

I was talking about endgame content as well. As for the rewards in lower level areas, you get level 80 stuff in the lower level areas if you're level 80. Would you use them? No, not necessarily, but you can sell them for money and you get about the same amount of money as you would from selling the junk you get in Orr. Whereas in Guild Wars 1, if you went back to the lower level areas, you'd be crippling yourself because there's nothing of worth there for you at level 20. So really, only half the world is playable at level 20.

Did I say that you couldn't use the skills you unlocked in PvE in PvP in Guild Wars? No. Once you had the skills you needed for a certain type of build, that was it. There was no reason at all to get the other elite skills. For each profession in Guild Wars, I had about 5 elite skills which made up the best builds in the game for both PvE and PvP. Considering there are between 15-36 elite skills in total for each profession in Guild Wars, I can safely say that I didn't need the others unless I wanted to feel like a completionist.

Credible explanations are a form of immersion for some. What you described is another form of immersion. Both are valid forms, as another poster already said on here.

When I was talking about Blazeridge Steppes, I wasn't talking about immersion

Well, you could have used it on the same profession. You could be playing a human warrior because you deleted your norn warrior when you realized that the norn story is retarded (not saying that the human one is in any way better).
And as for "allows me to learn the skills", do you take me for some sort of idiot? You don't think I am capable of learning 5 skills if I get them all at once? For *'s sake, really, if that is the reason for the skill unlocks (and actually, I have no doubt that it is), then it's just a massive insult to every GW2 player.

You keep saying that you need to grind, but that is for a small part of it. You do not need to grind while you level. Once you have reached max level, you only need to grind in one specific case: if you want the next tier of gear. It's the same thing as in GW2... That's not to say that, in every MMO (including GW2) you need to grind in order to not progress agonizingly slow. If you're ok with slow progress, you don't need to grind.

Sure, Colin's quote was about the setup of enemies in MMOs. You can probably find a farm under attack in WoW, just like you can in GW2, and you can find enemies standing around in fields in both games as well. But it did mention combat and how pointless that was... proving my point that combat can be grindy. Of course, it can also be non-grindy.

No you were not talking about endgame content. If you were, why would you mention leveling? Why would you mention going back to earlier areas? And you know as well as i do that while you do get "level 80 rewards" in low level areas, they are not as good nor as frequent as they are in high level areas - and as the rewards are the only reason to go anywhere in GW2, you don't see that many level 80s in low level areas.
In GW1 you could go back to earlier areas without going back to low level areas, since half the world (in Prophecies) was max level content. We've been over this already, you keep returning to points where you already have been proven wrong. It's not a good tactic.
As for skill capping, we were talking about at release... you could certainly make use of every single elite back then, even stuff like Mind Shock found a use.

Credible explanations have little to do with immersion... Lots of people consider Mass Effect an immersive game despite mass effect field generation being described in a way that a middle schooler can easily say makes no sense whatsoever. What you are talking about is familiarity... The same thing that makes us accept for example the properties of lightsabers in Star Wars (despite the fact that said properties are distinctly non-light-like).

I know what you were talking about with Blazeridge... I replied to it. You can test your skill until you are forcibly leveled past the point where playing there is a challenge for you. No matter where you go this is true... Except FotM of course. And in there, you get as far as your stats allow you.

Speaking of immersion, though, there is the thing I mentioned with leveling... But there is another thing as well. Why is leveling stepwise? If I run around killing bugs... Then when I kill bug #397, there is some surge of power and I hit next level. What's so special about bug #397? Why not #396?

[Ritualist]

If it hasn't been posted yet:
http://www.reddit.co...s_2_ama/c7776mv

Quote

Q: What is your/ANet's definition of grind?
Serious question.

A: Repetitive game play that is not fun.
Chris

[raspberry jam]

Protoss, on 13 December 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

If it hasn't been posted yet:
http://www.reddit.co...s_2_ama/c7776mv

Well, it was posted on reddit, plus it's Chris' own words, so of course it's not going to be an exhaustive or strict definition. That said, though, he basically just said that GW2 is grind.

[Ritualist]

raspberry jam, on 13 December 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

Well, it was posted on reddit, plus it's Chris' own words, so of course it's not going to be an exhaustive or strict definition. That said, though, he basically just said that GW2 is grind.

I doubt that we ever got a more clear definition of what grind in GW terms should mean, so I think this should be the definition for GW2 going forward.
What's important though is that he included the word fun, and that's inherently subjective - which means when they say "no grind" that basically means a "lack of content that is repetitive and A.Net doesn't consider to be fun".
And as those of us that have been here since GW1 know, A.Net's definition of "fun" is sometimes REALLY problematic. We still remember how they introduced completely insane concepts (or refused to nerf them) because they thought they were "fun".

[BrettM]

raspberry jam, on 13 December 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

Why is leveling stepwise? If I run around killing bugs... Then when I kill bug #397, there is some surge of power and I hit next level. What's so special about bug #397? Why not #396?

I suppose they could take the stat increases between two levels and divide them up so that you get a small stat increase every time you kill a bug. But, for killing one bug to make any noticeable difference, the overall stat increase between levels would have to be a pretty large number. However, killing each bug will require more than one use of your weapon, so you could argue that each swing of the sword should result in an incremental improvement.

Yet, does doing anything just once generally produce a measurable improvement in one's performance at a task? I think measurable improvement at most anything -- throwing a ball, playing Chopsticks on the piano, lifting weights -- appears to be stepwise because the incremental improvement from each rep is not easily measured. You just turn around one day and suddenly notice how easy it is to do something you once found difficult. Stepwise progression measures are the norm. The apprentice gets promoted to journeyman and gains privileges he didn't have before, though his underlying improvement was actually incremental during the whole course of his apprenticeship.

So then the question becomes whether the measure is granular enough. Are the steps between levels just too large for comfort? Would it be better to give stat increases at, say, half levels or quarter levels? At what points should your progress be noticeable, assuming that individual bugs would be too granular a measure? Should the apprentice get minor promotions from Beginning Apprentice to Junior to Senior, with smaller rewards accumulating along the way?

If you're going to have a leveling system at all, you have to put the steps somewhere. With a given endpoint in mind, you have to decide how you're going to chop up the interval. ANet chose 80 steps, rather than one step or 956 steps. (Well, of course it's a little more complicated since they imposed a curve on the line, but it's still about apportioning the interval.) What alternative would suit you better, given the decision to use a leveling system rather than having no levels?

[raspberry jam]

BrettM, on 13 December 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

I suppose they could take the stat increases between two levels and divide them up so that you get a small stat increase every time you kill a bug. But, for killing one bug to make any noticeable difference, the overall stat increase between levels would have to be a pretty large number. However, killing each bug will require more than one use of your weapon, so you could argue that each swing of the sword should result in an incremental improvement.

Yet, does doing anything just once generally produce a measurable improvement in one's performance at a task? I think measurable improvement at most anything -- throwing a ball, playing Chopsticks on the piano, lifting weights -- appears to be stepwise because the incremental improvement from each rep is not easily measured. You just turn around one day and suddenly notice how easy it is to do something you once found difficult. Stepwise progression measures are the norm. The apprentice gets promoted to journeyman and gains privileges he didn't have before, though his underlying improvement was actually incremental during the whole course of his apprenticeship.

So then the question becomes whether the measure is granular enough. Are the steps between levels just too large for comfort? Would it be better to give stat increases at, say, half levels or quarter levels? At what points should your progress be noticeable, assuming that individual bugs would be too granular a measure? Should the apprentice get minor promotions from Beginning Apprentice to Junior to Senior, with smaller rewards accumulating along the way?

If you're going to have a leveling system at all, you have to put the steps somewhere. With a given endpoint in mind, you have to decide how you're going to chop up the interval. ANet chose 80 steps, rather than one step or 956 steps. (Well, of course it's a little more complicated since they imposed a curve on the line, but it's still about apportioning the interval.) What alternative would suit you better, given the decision to use a leveling system rather than having no levels?

Granularity is one problem, and it has been solved in various ways... Making levels mean less, or removing them altogether for component-wise progression (leveling up individual parts of the whole, e.g. BRP style design), or some combination of those two... These solutions all ignore the obvious.
Another problem is the scale of most leveling systems... A bear that is a significant danger to a level 1 character can literally be nothing (as in doing 0 damage) to a max level character. Even if the bear does the same amount of damage, the max level character have 200 times more health than the level 1 one, rendering the threat insignificant.

My solution if a leveling system would be demanded...? I have two.

The first one resembles what we had in GW1: short leveling period, hard cap. The number of levels doesn't matter, of course, just that they are easy to max out. Once maxed out, vertical progression should essentially stop.

The second one is similar to GW1... hard cap on power, but not on levels. There can be a movable level cap, or infinite levels... it doesn't matter. The power of a character at a given level should asymptotically approach a certain power cap as that level grows higher. I'd suggest starting at level 1, at 50% of the maximum attainable power... Then halving the distance between the character and the cap at each level, so that level 2 characters have 75% of maximum power, level 3 has 87.5% and so on.
The power increase per level soon becomes insignificant. A level 50 character is basically the same as a level 400 one, there are extremely small differences, if any.

In both cases, you have the jarring jumps in the beginning of the game, but they disappear towards the end of it.

[Soki]

Damage control.

[DuskWolf]

My solution for this in a fantasy game is to probably look at spectacle fighters.

A good spectacle fighter requires a lot of skill, and rewards it, too. Basically, it's rewarded in combo options. So, at level 1 of a system like this, you'd be able to beat the bear with the hits you have available to you, but at level 10 you'd be able to beat the bear in three different ways. The numbers of you and the bear don't change, but the options available to you become greater.

At level 50, you have at least 20 ways to defeat the bear, but you're still on even footing with a level 1 player, because their starting combo is able to defeat the bear anyway. You'll be able to look more flashy with your ducking and weaving, and you'll have more (and I can't stress how important this is) variety in your playstyle, but you won't be better. That's the thing, levelling is automatically assumed that it needs to make the player better.

BIGGER NUMBARZ

Yet obviously this does not need to be the case! Bigger numbers is just one option; A completely unnecessary option in my opinion, because there are so many more ways of doing it. So let's look at it this way. In my ideal game, a player would be unlocking skins for their character, sort of akin to Champions Online. So it's armour with no stats. They can apply these pieces to themselves and pick and choose what they like the best. Some might even choose to remain in low level skins to be humble, some might want the flashy stuff with the mile high shoulderguards.

But your progression as a player is represented then in how many combos you can do and how good at it. You look back at that first bear and you chuckle. You chuckle because you were small then, not small in numbers, but small in regards to the ways in which you might approach something. Once you've reached max level--whatever that is, let's say 100--you're still in a situation where a level 1 character can keep up with you, but you can fight things in so many different ways now that the game continues to feel fresh and enjoyable.

And I would seriously love to see a game that offered that kind of vertical progression system.

So a player starting off might be doing 1-2-1, mixed with unrestricted dodge-hops (similar to Mass Effect), leaps, and so on. So a player 1 next to a player 50 might look something like this:

1-2-2 : 1-2-1 : 1-2-2 : 1-2-1 : 1-2-2 : 1-2-1 : 1-2-2
1-2-3-1-3-1-2-2-3-3 : 1-3-2-2-4 : 3-3-1-3-4-1

Let's look at it this way, the lower level character is doing a small self heal every time they hit the second 2 of 1-2-2. But the higher level character is taking more risks by doing more damage until they reach the 4 of their second combo, which gives them a larger heal with minor regeneration. The end result would be the same, but the higher level player could keep a combo going for longer. This would be more difficult, but it would also look flashier. So the level 50 could go back and fight that bear in their shiny armour and with their amazing combos, but they'd be on the same footing as a level 1.

I'd really like to play an MMO like that. It's just one idea, anyway.

---Edit---

Just to elaborate a little further... the system works something like this:

1 - Light Attack
2 - Light Heal
3 - Heavy Attack
4 - Heavy Heal

And you learn more combos to chain these together as time goes on. So if you chain a heavy attack into a light heal (3-2), then you get a short burst of health immediately after executing a flashier but more damaging attack. So imagine executing 1-3-3-1-4 in your head, with 4 ending in a more pronounced heal with mild regeneration.

Now try 1-1-1-4-4. This is a combo that's designed for dealing with danger. The first 4 flips you back and gives you a heal. If you then progress to the second 4 you get a larger heal.

Characters diversify by gaining access to new combo cards, which allow them to chain their attacks together in new and interesting ways. Some attacks might even stagger, meaning less necessity to heal. So you might do 1-1-3-1-3, which involves two heavy attacks and a lot of staggering.

Or try 1-3-2-4, which starts out with a light attack, leading into a heavy attack, which leads into a small self heal, then an area heal.

The risk-reward system here is that heavier attacks have more elaborate animations and take longer to execute, this is where you can be kind of vulnerable and leave yourself open to attack. If you feel comfortable going for it in the moment, then leading into combos with lots of heavies can work out well. Switching to a ranged weapon might be a good idea for getting off a lot of area heals, for example.

You coul deven have it so that certain combo cards require certain weapons as a sort of inverse of GW2's system, which would be closer in-line with GW1's.

For an alternate take on this idea: You could have alt+1-4 change between four different weapons, then 1-4 are basically a severity of attack system, with 1 being the shortest/quickest and 4 being the heaviest/longest. You could then switch between them and do combos based upon the kind of item you're using, but the combo cards wouldn't be tied to the weapon, they would just require a certain weapon type. So you'd do 1-3-4-4-4 with a heavy sword, alt+3 to your healing staff, 1-2-2 for a quick stagger-heal, then alt+1 to your sword for a 1-3-4-4-4 again.

Under the alternate system you could, say, have a lance on alt+2, so you'd use 4-1-1 to charge in with the lance, doing heavy damage followed by a light and a stagger, then you'd press alt+1 to switch to your sword to follow up with a 1-3-4-4-4, then you'd switch to your lance to do 1-2-3, which would end up in a large backflip away from your foe ready for a heal or a lance charge again. Or something like that. It'd be a fun system. And again, diversity is via the combo cards you have for your weapons, rather than numbers.

Just an idea I'm playing around with, anyway.

I HAVE A LOT OF IDEAS. I AM AN IDEA PERSON.

I can't promise you that these ideas are good, but really, I'd love to see how they'd play out in an MMO.

(I MUST STOP TYPING ABOUT THIS.)

Edited by DuskWolf, 13 December 2012 - 05:08 PM.

[Cronos988]

That is an intriguing concept, Dusk Wolf.
Two problems I see that might be surfacing with this:

- Content: every different skill combo needs to be programmed, so the maximum number of attainable combos is finite and limited by the development time. Focussing solely on the combat aspect of the game might lead to a bland story or uninteresting world. As a secondary problem, progression would necessarily be relatively short,

- Skill and information ceiling: involving player skill puts a limit on how much you can do if you want to keep the game accessible. Similarily, giving the player an encyclopedia worth of skills and combo options to memorize is probably not going to be much fun for anyone but the most die-hard fans of fighting games.

All in all, basing progression on coolness rather than pure effectiveness surely is an interesting idea. Adding a slight increase in power level by virtue of being able to deal with more situations (like several enemies) will probably be inevitable, but that doesn't hurt the concept. I'd try that game out .

[DuskWolf]

Cronos988, on 13 December 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

That is an intriguing concept, Dusk Wolf.

Thanks

Cronos988, on 13 December 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

Two problems I see that might be surfacing with this [...]

Oh, I could see some issues, too. Even more than the ones you've mentioned. But the thing is is that every system has issues. It's just a matter of whether they impact the fun more or less than existing systems.

Cronos988, on 13 December 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

- Content: every different skill combo needs to be programmed, so the maximum number of attainable combos is finite and limited by the development time.

Not necessarily. Look at Borderlands. If handled cleverly enough, the combo cards could even be generated procedurally, so there'd be no end of content. It'd just be a matter of figuring out the underlying systems.

Let me make a case for this: A 1-2-4-4-4 combo card could involve staggering the opponent, then smashing into the ground. The ground eruption could shatter into boulders which could [stagger] them, or lava which could [burn] them. The former is a stunlock, the latter involves a fear-like effect where they run around screaming.

And combo cards could be generated that way, and then the player could choose which combo cards to have equipped from a large variety, even selling the combo cards they don't like.

Cronos988, on 13 December 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

Focussing solely on the combat aspect of the game might lead to a bland story or uninteresting world. As a secondary problem, progression would necessarily be relatively short,

I never said you would have to.

To be honest. If I were to make a world for this, it would be a cell-shaded art-nouvea atompunk (I'm a monster, I know) one which revolves around exploration and the discovery of the past. It would have a variety of races, one of them being the Yomuns (accompanying them would be a bunch of uplifted species based upon earth origin). There would be ancient tlaes of Arth, and it would have a sort of Firefly feel to it in some regards. They've just started figuring out space travel, and the planet they're on and a number of liveable worlds they can reach have mysterious artifacts on them.

These involve various challenges in the form of logic puzzles, riddles, jumping puzzles, and so on. Each of these unlocks new technologies which can be traded in with the relevant governments and organisations. These artifacts would also provide a background storyline about the nature of Arth, why it's been forgotten, and why they're there, where these things came from, and so on. And that would roll out into a more epic storyline - but I don't want to spill all of my ideas.

Cronos988, on 13 December 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

- Skill and information ceiling: involving player skill puts a limit on how much you can do if you want to keep the game accessible.

I already covered this one, though. If a player isn't comfortable using elaborate combos, they can stick to shorter ones and build up a combo card library of shorter combos. They might not look as flashy as more skilled players, but they'd get the job done all the same.

Plus, one's level can dictate the complexity of the combo cards that dropped for them, easing them into it.

Cronos988, on 13 December 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

Similarily, giving the player an encyclopedia worth of skills and combo options to memorize is probably not going to be much fun for anyone but the most die-hard fans of fighting games.

Again, not necessarily. Combo cards would need to be equipped, and there would be a max number of combo cards. All they'd have to do is memorise the combo cards that fit their playstyle. There would be combo cards that use the same combos for similar (but different) effects, basically very closely related sidegrade combo cards that would be of the same family.

An example of this fits in with the procedurally generated stuff above, where you could have one combo card that does burn, and another that does a heavy stagger, but where both of which utilise the same combo. And to be honest, with only four buttons involved, I think that most people would be able to master the easier/shorter combos.

Cronos988, on 13 December 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

All in all, basing progression on coolness rather than pure effectiveness surely is an interesting idea.

Thanks. This is what I've always been calling for. It should be coolness, it shouldn't just be numbers. You should be level 50 because of how you look and the variety involved in your playstyle, not because you are simply outright better than a level 1.

Cronos988, on 13 December 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

Adding a slight increase in power level by virtue of being able to deal with more situations (like several enemies) will probably be inevitable, but that doesn't hurt the concept. I'd try that game out .

Thanks. I doubt it'd ever be a thing. But a game of this style would probably make me very happy, at least.

And hey, the grinding is there, too. You could grind for flashier combo cards if you wanted them. Again, coolness factor and all, but no more effective. You can have sidegrade combo cards which simply do flashier effects. So there could be a version of the lava card which involves a small volcano, rather than a minor eruption, but still does the same damage.

I think people honestly grind for coolness in most cases rather than effectiveness. So it might work.

---Edit---

I even have alternate ideas to levelling for world exploration, too. Ultima Online allowed you to see the world, and that didn't harm that game. So what if we didn't have level-gating at all? I can think of some alternatives!

Time Gating

A certain area only becomes available for a few moments every week, you actually have to discover it in order to get in there. It's well hidden, and leads to content that's never been seen before. Artifacts nearby might hint that there are shenanigans involved (like mentioning a full moon, or an evening when the skies are especially orange).

Activity Gating

There are four generators around the world, these are mysterious and have no explanation. These generators have puzzles tied into them, and require resources to be harvested from around the world to be deposited within. Once the generators become active, the open a portal to a new area. This portal will remain open for a day or two before the generators shut down again. Even low level players can enter this portal.

Artifact Gating

You have an AR (an Artifact Rank), this is to do with how many artifacts you've activated or helped to activate. This is what actually matters in the game rather than killing. It's just that killing may be necessary to sometimes get at an artifact, or sometimes to gather resources to activate one. Certain artifacts can only be activated by a person with a certain artifact rank and contain story content in a linear fashion. Though these are more akin to Guild Wars missions that occur in the main world once you've entered a portal to go to the relevant version of the world. (Hinting at things, here.)

Essentially these would be like personal storyline stuffs.

I'm not 100% on this one. I might tweak it more.

Boss Gating

Some artifacts may have a humongous boss in front of them that's keeping people away from an area which can only be accessed via an artifact portal. The players have to destroy the boss, potentially whilst trying to stop minions from deactivating the artifact (which would take quite some time to reactivate), and maybe with a timer to be especially evil.

These artifacts can be accessed by level 1 players, and level 1 players can contribute to opening it.

(This would basically be like allowing a level 1 character to go and contribute a great deal to The Shatterer fight. Which is something that I'm A-OK with.)

Companion Gating

Due to the skillset of your scholar-guide (see below), there are certain artifacts that you won't be able to access with one character. These aren't relevant to that particular take on the story. However, playing a scholar-guide from the LLLtd, and then later the Cз, will result in vastly different stories within the same world. And it'll change your understanding of what's going on. Having played with each organisation will give you a good idea of the overall story.

Each story is the part of a greater whole, and each story is relevant completely to one organisation. So a different story is told from start to finish for each one.

Knowledge Gating

Talking to your companion may provide a way to activate an artifact that you'd not been able to before. This is similar to AR, above. But it's more that they're secret little bonuses that you might get access to if you realise that something a scholar-guide has hinted at is relevant to an artifact.

I might come up with other ideas as time goes on.

---Edit---

And how about this? (The scholar-guide mentioned above.)

The Scholar-Guide System

One of the things with GW2 is that I think it has a lot of great ideas (and potential) executed poorly. So here's what I'm going to do with the 'friends' idea of GW2. Basically, there are a number of organisations and government-type factions within the game.

The Church of J'Sar no Krist: A religious movement that believes that Arth is a paradise; One with the answers to all questions, the power to grant wishes, and so on; They essentially see it as being similar to how we see the afterlife. And their ultimate goal and what they believe the goal of all living creatures is is to reach Arth. They are very zealous about their goal, however, which can pose a threat to non-believers.

Longshot Logistics Ltd: An organisation dedicated to moving forward, with both culture and science. This organisation would sooner see Arth forgotten as a myth, and their goal is the speedy evolution of all peoples towards the Singularity. They have an ethical code, but this can be waived if certain higher-ups believe the end justifies the means. Sometimes this can be waived a little too often.

Cз (Common Concerns Conglomerate): A public funded, government subsidised, and non-profit institution which is dedicated to the well-being of peoples within the now, they care for the poor and aren't really a fan of those who would bogard technologies towards ends which didn't benefit the many. They see the benefit of the now as being more important than any long term goals.

WIP names tugged from me head. They have a bit of a cold war thing going on, PvP comes in there, et cetera, et cetera. You have to choose an organisation after character creation, within the first moments of the game. And you have to choose one of four representatives to be your Scholar-Guide. These aren't actually combat buddies, but they know a lot about the world.

They provide the story of the game from their perspective, and they'll also provide hints and aid in regards to situations and artifacts that they're familiar with. At points you'll have to defend them as they perform certain actions. You can also (optionally) choose to have short conversations with them about things you're doing or have recently done. This may open up a new bit of information, here and there.

This person is always with you as a hard-light holographic representation (think of the emergency medical hologram from Star Trek); Though you can disable or enable him as you desire. And you can customise their appearance as much as you do your own (because hologram). So whilst you may be in an area where five or more people have the same schoar-guide, they might not all look identical.

*falls over.*

Sorry, brainsplurge. But sometimes these are fun.

Edited by DuskWolf, 13 December 2012 - 06:16 PM.