271 replies to this topic

[ilr]

None of this changes the fact that they added the Infusion system which sets precedent for GearScores.


In GW1, infusion meant you took a quick trip to Iron Mines and simply walked past a bunch of Mantle/Summit too busy fighting eachother to fight you ....  fought through not more than a dozen Scourge Nightmares & squishy weak trolls ... and the majority of your "fighting" there was just dealing with those silly Tundra Giants who posed no real threat.  Or you could even skip all that by having a capable (dare I say "skilled") Runner sneak past all that crap and trigger the cutscene with the Seer.  

There were quite a few dungeons in THIS GAME that a skilled group could pull this off in to make the dungeons a lot faster, and it was a GOOD THING.  Instituting GearScores does the opposite of this nomatter how much they attempt to reduce the grind involved.  We used to be able to use skill to get what we wanted, with or without being in exclusive Dragon-Chaser's guilds...  We could WvWvW just fine too without being in a guild or having to meet someone else's specific teaming requirements.  And most importantly, it wasn't decided by Gear.

Now it will be decided by Gear.   They aren't taking that back.  They're not even apologizing for it.  That "Keystone" that defines what a "Treadmill" really is, isn't going anywhere.  Grind or no grind.... the system that requires you to do acquire these infusions instead of raw skill to overcome these hazards  IS THERE, AND ITS NOT GOING AWAY.

Edited by ilr, 27 November 2012 - 10:18 PM.

[Jason Seven]

Khlaw, on 27 November 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

Yet once the mistakes have been made, what do you want them to do, beyond admitting the mistakes, promising to make adjustments where possible, and committing to do better in the future?

Not make them in the first place. A company with 7+ years experience in this field should know a lot better. Especially their president who is one of its founders. Yet he goes around on reddit and spits in their entire GW1 playerbase faces by saying that it was boring and stagnant due to the lack of vertical progression. Shown in replies from the AMA they themselves thought that the introduction of Ascended gear was rushed and poorly designed yet they went with it. They themselves fully expected this kind of backlash and negative reaction from their playerbase yet they still implemented it. If you're a game developer and already know what havoc your latest content will cause but you introduce it despite all odds then I honestly question your capabilities and whether you even want to produce good content for your playerbase or just throw them a bone to play with for a while. Considering all of this makes any kind of apology completely meaningless. Only actions are what counts right now and knowing ArenaNet there won't be any before next year regarding this.

[deitiesforce]

Jason Seven, on 28 November 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

Not make them in the first place. A company with 7+ years experience in this field should know a lot better. Especially their president who is one of its founders. Yet he goes around on reddit and spits in their entire GW1 playerbase faces by saying that it was boring and stagnant due to the lack of vertical progression. Shown in replies from the AMA they themselves thought that the introduction of Ascended gear was rushed and poorly designed yet they went with it. They themselves fully expected this kind of backlash and negative reaction from their playerbase yet they still implemented it. If you're a game developer and already know what havoc your latest content will cause but you introduce it despite all odds then I honestly question your capabilities and whether you even want to produce good content for your playerbase or just throw them a bone to play with for a while. Considering all of this makes any kind of apology completely meaningless. Only actions are what counts right now and knowing ArenaNet there won't be any before next year regarding this.

VERY well said. He seriously made me wanna puke when he said gw1 was "stagnant and wasn't that fun." Let me tell you what is fun, GVG, RA, FA, JQ, instance mission, player- friendly no gear treadmill game are fun. Gw2 is not even close to comparison, ascended gear grind is not fun, give me some more pvp modes and home instances (horizontal progression) then maybe we can talk about it. Seriously, gw1 was way better than this game and don't give me the because it was bad so we want to change. You want to change because you want to change not because the lack of support that we gw1 players didn't give you. That statement disgusts me.

Edited by deitiesforce, 28 November 2012 - 06:33 AM.

[Bryant Again]

It's clear that ANet's set on this route, I accept that. Now this whole progression depends upon how much they 'reduce the grind'.

I've mentioned a few times that if more stats are easier to get (as opposed to grinding them out (or being nudged to give cash for gold lolol)) it will just make the older content easier...but that could be a good thing. It's a slight incentive to run content that's not as 'relevant' when it can be a lot less stressful, and you can often times appreciate the area more.

So it's not all perfect, but I'd be fine if they do stick to shortening the progression (and by relative terms, that would mean a lot!).

[Maarius]

ilr, on 27 November 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

Now it will be decided by Gear.   They aren't taking that back.  They're not even apologizing for it.  That "Keystone" that defines what a "Treadmill" really is, isn't going anywhere.  Grind or no grind.... the system that requires you to do acquire these infusions instead of raw skill to overcome these hazards  IS THERE, AND ITS NOT GOING AWAY.

I don't know which game you played, I was in the fractals last weekend with a lv.47 Necro who was scaled to 80. He was no burden at all, we had a great time.

Everyone can experience all of the dungeons, even all of the 9 fractals, in this game. The only thing where you need a certain amount of Infusions are the higher difficulties of an existing dungeon. But not even until lv.10 of those.

Edited by Maarius, 28 November 2012 - 07:32 AM.

[Snapalope]

Don't think admitting mistakes will help when you already proved your company is full of liars and hypocrites.  I think what you should do is keep this thread and change it to "mistakes they admitted but didn't bother to fix" for any future references.

Edited by Snapalope, 28 November 2012 - 08:03 AM.

[Nox_Aeterna]

Snapalope, on 28 November 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

Don't think admitting mistakes will help when you already proved your company is full of liars and hypocrites.  I think what you should do is keep this thread and change it to "mistakes they admitted but didn't bother to fix" for any future references.

That is pretty much every company not just Anet. Fact is , on the business world things are not about keeping your word. It is about comparing what you gonna gain and what you gonna lose , all of its implications (short and long time) and check it is on your best interest.

This is what Anet is trying to do. Will it work? No idea , but they are the ones working in this field , should know what they are doing.

Honestly , im still waiting to see if they will really add a way to get it without major grind like they said.

[Snapalope]

Another huge rant.  I've been gated on level 21 because I have not gotten a single ring.  I've been doing the new dungeon since its launch and run 10 and 20 every day.  So ya pretty insane.  I'm just going to play Dota for a month and see what they do with the game.

Nox_Aeterna, on 28 November 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

but they are the ones working in this field , should know what they are doing.

Uh no, coming from a guy that played GW1 for 6 years and played high end PvP, they have *ing clue what they are doing.

Edited by Snapalope, 28 November 2012 - 08:27 AM.

[Robsy128]

Snapalope, on 28 November 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

Don't think admitting mistakes will help when you already proved your company is full of liars and hypocrites.  I think what you should do is keep this thread and change it to "mistakes they admitted but didn't bother to fix" for any future references.

Clearly you're a game developer. Also, the game has been shut down according to that statement.

Huh... I didn't know that! In fact, I'm logged into Guild Wars 2 right now. But no, according to that statement, they're not working on the game any more. They're not going to bother changing it whatsoever, and we're stuck with what we have until NCSoft decides to destroy Arenanet with a bomb.

I honestly hope Arenanet adds more grind and destroys their game with comments like these. There really is no point in having a playerbase as rude and awful as this, especially after they've admitted their mistakes and are currently working on fixing them. If you think you can do better - go and make a better game. Don't sit there spewing hate.

[Redhawk2007]

Robsy128, on 27 November 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

People are so ridiculously pessimistic. How about we wait and see what happens, rather than crying and whining like little kids.

I mean, really? WAAAA - Anet made a mistake! They said they would... they would... AHHHH.
Please, for the love of everything good in the world, stop and think for a moment. It's easy to just throw away answers they've given to the playerbase. Let's actually wait and see what their next move is. After all, actions speak louder than words.

People are pessimistic because they have a history of lying about things and doing the precise opposite of what they say they will do.

That tends to make people a little skeptical. As for calling people "whiners"for pointing out the obvious, that is just trolling.

[Xodiak]

I'll be interested to see how they keep the PvE crowd invested in this game over time and do that without making the "20 minutes of GW2 gaming a week' crowd not feel like they are being left behind in gear/rewards.
I could understand if this was the same game as GW1, but it's not..so how this is handled will be interesting.

[Momochi7]

Protoss, on 27 November 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

And as I said, THAT was what happened next. That was their second chance.
GW2 isn't a fantastic game. It's a game that needs help. And since we are a bunch of fanboys, we gave A.Net a second chance instead of simply leaving - we wanted them to improve the game. And Ascended gear is what they gave us.

Chance used. Wrong answer.

Then leave. Stop being on these forums if it pains you so much. I for one will wait it out, and see what their next move is, i can wait a few months, you couldn't honestly have believed that a game of this size was spotless after the first three months, at least they're working on it, give it time, and you if don't have time, or they've broken your "trust" simply move along, no ones stopping you besides yourself right now.

Growing quite tired of some of this communitiy tbh ( which may be a small fraction of the people on the forums), they stay to whine, threaten with leaving..go for gods sake, your probably better off if your so determined to hate. It may not be the game everyone wanted, but i find value not in what they fix now, but the hope of them making this game epic down the road, and being on the journey it takes whether good or bad, as long as im still having fun then im staying, the minor stat increase from a gear tier you dont "need" to have, to be able to be succesful in your proffesion is not something i would fuss too much about.

Edited by Momochi7, 28 November 2012 - 03:25 PM.

[Ritualist]

Momochi7, on 28 November 2012 - 03:18 PM, said:

Then leave. Stop being on these forums if it pains you so much. I for one will wait it out, and see what their next move is, i can wait a few months, you couldn't honestly have believed that a game of this size was spotless after the first three months, at least they're working on it, give it time, and you if don't have time, or they've broken your "trust" simply move along, no ones stopping you besides yourself right now.

Growing quite tired of some of this communitiy tbh ( which may be a small fraction of the people on the forums), they stay to whine, threaten with leaving..go for gods sake, your probably better off if your so determined to hate. It may not be the game everyone wanted, but i find value not in what they fix now, but the hope of them making this game epic down the road, and being on the journey it takes whether good or bad, as long as im still having fun then im staying, the minor stat increase from a gear tier you dont "need" to have, to be able to be succesful in your proffesion is not something i would fuss too much about.

Honestly, we now KNOW that you just need to bitch your heart out and A.Net will bend backwards for you. They changed the core of the game to appal to the people that failed to understand what the game was about.
I guess the rest of us just needs to bitch harder.

[EnRohbi]

Snapalope, on 28 November 2012 - 08:22 AM, said:

Uh no, coming from a guy that played GW1 for 6 years and played high end PvP, they have *ing clue what they are doing.

Lemme get this straight.
You're a gamer, and gamed for 6 years against other gamers, and this is your reason that you know business better than the business ArenaNet?

Robsy128, on 28 November 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

There really is no point in having a playerbase as rude and awful as this, especially after they've admitted their mistakes and are currently working on fixing them.

I have, personally, been growing increasingly frustrated with the playerbase and community developing within this game since people started bitching about server transfers ruining wvw.  As I've said, the bitterness from the players is far more likely to make me quit than anything Anet has done.

[Momochi7]

Protoss, on 28 November 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

Honestly, we now KNOW that you just need to bitch your heart out and A.Net will bend backwards for you. They changed the core of the game to appal to the people that failed to understand what the game was about.
I guess the rest of us just needs to bitch harder.

lol..not surprised you answered so fast, you've experienced your "last straw" "no more chances", and still, you linger whys that? Im staying for the fun factor, which sadly is depleting if i may add, but am i fanboy? well let, me put it this way, i'm a fan of the guild wars not arenanet per se, and especially not NCsoft. It's a good game, with some poor choices hopefully to be rectified, if you find no joy in GW2 then leave, the core remains the same, but the problem is; people like you can never be pleased, constantly crying, grow up, let it find its way, stop treading on the seed before you've seen it's fruits. Seems like the only one bending backwards is you, constantly bitching about the game but still staying for the beating.. think before you speak.

Edited by Momochi7, 28 November 2012 - 03:47 PM.

[Robsy128]

Redhawk2007, on 28 November 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

People are pessimistic because they have a history of lying about things and doing the precise opposite of what they say they will do.

That tends to make people a little skeptical. As for calling people "whiners"for pointing out the obvious, that is just trolling.

Yes, they made a game that is Pay to Play, Pay to Win, with no personal storyline in their game whatsoever.

People are just pessimistic. They were the same when dungeons were first introduced, and now they're all happy with dungeons. They were the same when gems were first introduced, and now they're all happy with gems.

EnRohbi, on 28 November 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

I have, personally, been growing increasingly frustrated with the playerbase and community developing within this game since people started bitching about server transfers ruining wvw.  As I've said, the bitterness from the players is far more likely to make me quit than anything Anet has done.

Same here, which is why I don't often come onto the forums anymore. The actual community in the game still seems friendly, although a little less active than what I remember. Then again, it is an MMO. It attracts all kinds of people with all kinds of different opinions. If people hate Arenanet so much, I can't understand why they don't just leave.

Edited by Robsy128, 28 November 2012 - 04:20 PM.

[Ritualist]

Momochi7, on 28 November 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

lol..not surprised you answered so fast, you've experienced your "last straw" "no more chances", and still, you linger whys that? Im staying for the fun factor, which sadly is depleting if i may add, but am i fanboy? well let, me put it this way, i'm a fan of the guild wars not arenanet per se, and especially not NCsoft. It's a good game, with some poor choices hopefully to be rectified, if you find no joy in GW2 then leave, the core remains the same, but the problem is; people like you can never be pleased, constantly crying, grow up, let it find its way, stop treading on the seed before you've seen it's fruits. Seems like the only one bending backwards is you, constantly bitching about the game but still staying for the beating.. think before you speak.

I really like your personal attacks mixed with life lessons.
Too bad that's not why I am here.

[Shatteredz]

Jason Seven, on 28 November 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

Not make them in the first place. A company with 7+ years experience in this field should know a lot better. Especially their president who is one of its founders. Yet he goes around on reddit and spits in their entire GW1 playerbase faces by saying that it was boring and stagnant due to the lack of vertical progression. Shown in replies from the AMA they themselves thought that the introduction of Ascended gear was rushed and poorly designed yet they went with it. They themselves fully expected this kind of backlash and negative reaction from their playerbase yet they still implemented it. If you're a game developer and already know what havoc your latest content will cause but you introduce it despite all odds then I honestly question your capabilities and whether you even want to produce good content for your playerbase or just throw them a bone to play with for a while. Considering all of this makes any kind of apology completely meaningless. Only actions are what counts right now and knowing ArenaNet there won't be any before next year regarding this.

Mistakes always happen, how experienced a company may be. Fort is alot older then Anet and Fort still makes mistakes. It is like saying you dont make mistakes at your job(which you probably make plenty) because you work there for 5+ years.
Also, nearly every update is concidered a mistake by at least a few persons. Anet cant make everybody happy with every update. They can make a majority of the players happy with a majority of the updates tough.

[raspberry jam]

Robsy128, on 28 November 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

If people hate Arenanet so much, I can't understand why they don't just leave.

But someone who actually hates ANet can still enjoy the game, and someone who thinks that ANet is the best company in the world can still dislike it... Those things have nothing to do with each other.

Then again I'm the kind of person who listens to songs instead of artists.

[Robsy128]

raspberry jam, on 28 November 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

But someone who actually hates ANet can still enjoy the game, and someone who thinks that ANet is the best company in the world can still dislike it... Those things have nothing to do with each other.

Then again I'm the kind of person who listens to songs instead of artists.

Well since Arenanet makes the game and what goes into it, they will eventually affect one another.
People are complaining about the decisions Arenanet has made in regards to Guild Wars 2. If they don't like them, they should leave.

[MazingerZ]

raspberry jam, on 28 November 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

Then again I'm the kind of person who listens to songs instead of artists.

This.  Unless an artist has an obvious style (MoShang), I rarely know who I'm listening to.

[Jason Seven]

Shatteredz, on 28 November 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

Mistakes always happen, how experienced a company may be. Fort is alot older then Anet and Fort still makes mistakes. It is like saying you dont make mistakes at your job(which you probably make plenty) because you work there for 5+ years.
Also, nearly every update is concidered a mistake by at least a few persons. Anet cant make everybody happy with every update. They can make a majority of the players happy with a majority of the updates tough.

They make the same mistakes they did in the past. One should learn from their mistakes instead of repeating them. While there's always unsatisfied people it's a whole different story if you fully anticipate the vast majority of your entire playerbase to become upset and enraged by the content you are about to implement.

[raspberry jam]

Robsy128, on 28 November 2012 - 05:11 PM, said:

Well since Arenanet makes the game and what goes into it, they will eventually affect one another.
People are complaining about the decisions Arenanet has made in regards to Guild Wars 2. If they don't like them, they should leave.

Well sorry but it's not up to you to decide what others should and should not do. The people who are complaining have as much right to do that as you have to state your appreciation for ANet's decisions. They paid for the game, they played it (some still do), they represent a significant part of the possible playerbase. If they didn't care about GW2, they would leave, but see, that's the reason they don't: they do care. They want GW2 to be a good game. And they have learned that ANet just does whatever complainers tell them to do.

In other words, they have everything to gain from not leaving.

[Arkham Creed]

MazingerZ, on 27 November 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

  Even if its a minimal increase, you ruin the WvWvW's concept of an even playing field...

I know I'm late but I just had to call you out on this one. No one, not even ANet, ever said WvWvW was to be an even playing field. That is sPvP. It has been known since it was first announced and Arena Net even promoted WvW as INTENTIONALLY UNBALANCED. You can keep trying to make WvW an even playing field all you want, but it won't change the fact that it was NEVER intended to be so. Just go look up some of the older interviews if you don't believe me; WvW was always intended to be the uneven chaos mode for open world PvP ganking and objective zerg. If you want balanced skill based and fair PvP you go play sPvP.

[Robsy128]

raspberry jam, on 28 November 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

Well sorry but it's not up to you to decide what others should and should not do. The people who are complaining have as much right to do that as you have to state your appreciation for ANet's decisions. They paid for the game, they played it (some still do), they represent a significant part of the possible playerbase. If they didn't care about GW2, they would leave, but see, that's the reason they don't: they do care. They want GW2 to be a good game. And they have learned that ANet just does whatever complainers tell them to do.

In other words, they have everything to gain from not leaving.

No, it's up to the people to decide what they want to do. I'm just saying that there's no point in complaining about the obvious, i.e:
'Arenanet has added grinding to the game! N000000ooooOOooo1!!! What have you done to my precious?! How dare you?!'
Especially after Arenanet has said they're working on fixing said problem. If they have such problems with the current state of the game, and are that upset about it, they should leave it for a while. Cool down, take a break, and not get into all of the politics which plagues this and the official forums.

[raspberry jam]

Robsy128, on 28 November 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

Arenanet has said they're working on fixing said problem.

Are those the same guys that said that they wouldn't make gear-treadmill MMOs? Ahh, I wouldn't put too much trust in what they say, not until they show some results.

[Sinful01]

raspberry jam, on 28 November 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

Well sorry but it's not up to you to decide what others should and should not do.

Robsy128, on 28 November 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

No, it's up to the people to decide what they want to do. I'm just saying that there's no point in complaining about the obvious, i.e:
'Arenanet has added grinding to the game! N000000ooooOOooo1!!! What have you done to my precious?! How dare you?!'
Especially after Arenanet has said they're working on fixing said problem. If they have such problems with the current state of the game, and are that upset about it, they should leave it for a while. Cool down, take a break, and not get into all of the politics which plagues this and the official forums.

Wait ... so in response to "you shouldn't tell people what to do", you agree and say it is up to them to do what they choose, then again tell people what they should do.  

Made me smile, thanks for that.

[Arkham Creed]

Sinful01, on 28 November 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

Wait ... so in response to "you shouldn't tell people what to do", you agree and say it is up to them to do what they choose, then again tell people what they should do.  

Made me smile, thanks for that.

Obviously that was a suggestion, not a command. Or at least that is how I took it, and I agree. I'm actually one of the people upset about certain recent changes to the game, and instead of bitching I've opted to take a break for a bit and give things time to even out. The problem with knee-jerk reactions is that they are pretty unstable, and the problem with reactions like that to Arena Net is that, and this is the hard truth based on lurking these forums for YEARS, when the GW2 community doesn't like something and starts complaining we're always wrong.

I can't count the number of guru freak-outs I've witnessed that ultimately turned out to be over nothing. Arena Net isn't innocent of course; they have a nasty habit of putting their foot in their mouth and should really learn to keep quiet about some things until they are ready to release all the information at the same time, but seriously guys this is just a repeat of the cash shop firestorm from beta. Or one of a hundred issues before that.

Now because people on the internet freak out if you say anything without adding "in my opinion" somewhere even if what you said is obviously an opinion, let me suggest, IN MY OPINION, that you calm down and take the holidays off. Go be with your family and friends, do some Christmas shopping if you celebrate that, and enjoy some delicious bad-for-you treats. Give Arena Net time to react and actually make changes in response to your complaints instead of constantly pestering them and actively preventing them from doing anything because all their time is spent having to explain and reexplain themselves to thick-headed fanboys having a temper tantrum.

Edited by Arkham Creed, 28 November 2012 - 08:23 PM.

[Robsy128]

Sinful01, on 28 November 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

Wait ... so in response to "you shouldn't tell people what to do", you agree and say it is up to them to do what they choose, then again tell people what they should do.  

Made me smile, thanks for that.

Ultimately it's up to people what they do. I did say if they feel a certain way, they should leave. It's not a command - it's a suggestion. Sorry if I didn't make that clear before. Next time I'll put:

THE FOLLOWING IS A SUGGESTION AND IS NOT A COMMAND. DO NOT OBEY ME. I AM NOT YOUR LEADER.

Hopefully that will get the message across

And I agree with Arkham so much on this as well. It's exactly the same as the gem store fiasco and now look where we are. You would think, even for a second, that people would learn from previous mistakes, but no. Oh, look at that... I just used the argument 95% of people were using against Arenanet against themselves.

raspberry jam, on 28 November 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

Are those the same guys that said that they wouldn't make gear-treadmill MMOs? Ahh, I wouldn't put too much trust in what they say, not until they show some results.

They're the same guys that said there would be no grinding to level 80.
They're the same guys that said my personal choices do matter in the storyline.
They're the same guys that said I would never have to pay monthly for their game or content updates.
So yes, judging by the results they've shown so far, I can say I put my trust in them.

Edited by Robsy128, 28 November 2012 - 11:03 PM.

[Targren]

Robsy128, on 27 November 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

As I said before - wait and see what happens next.

And if this was the only boneheaded thing to come about, that might be a valid bit of advice. But it hardly is.

As soon as they announced the Real Money shop/Gems for Gold, people who complained that that would give Anet a direct interest in screwing with the In-game economy were told "Wait and see what they do." And they did just that (temporary MF recipes to increase scarcity of certain drops, constant "adjustments," generally in the negative direction, to drop rates and node respawns, etc...).

When the game launched with a mess of scripting AI bugs that constantly broke events (the lion's share of which STILL have not been fixed), it was "Stop complaining. There might be problems, but this is a smoother launch than any other MMO has had."

A month in when they diverted all their attention to the big Halloween event, and the associated gem store garbage, while the aforementioned bugs were actually getting WORSE, it was "The game is still new. They'll fix it, just wait."

Now this, and people are still trying to say "Wait and see?"  Today was the 3 month mark. By three months, there were already whispers of SWTOR crashing and going F2P.

Exactly how long are we supposed to "wait and see" for Anet to get their shit together?