288 replies to this topic

[witteker]

I really doubt whether anet makes adding content without doing research.  I think they have to base their deicisions on what will make them money.  Since there is no subscription fee, people who want HP instead of VP but don't want to spend any money are not the people Anet will cater to.  Was GW1 very profitable?  If it wasn't very profitable, it is probably beccause people keep wanting free content without spending money.  Maybe, just maybe, VP people are willing to spend the money.

[Arquenya]

witteker, on 29 November 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

I really doubt whether anet makes adding content without doing research.  I think they have to base their deicisions on what will make them money.  Since there is no subscription fee, people who want HP instead of VP but don't want to spend any money are not the people Anet will cater to.  Was GW1 very profitable?  If it wasn't very profitable, it is probably beccause people keep wanting free content without spending money.  Maybe, just maybe, VP people are willing to spend the money.

I wonder how they do research if there aren't even polls on the forum. So they don't really want to know what their players/cusomers want at all. They're just not interested.

What money is concerned they just have to add more skins. Fine Transmutation Stones cost $0.50 each. Add new hairstyles and offer makeovers for 500 gems, $6.25 per character. Town cloth packs for 400 gems each.

The list of potential money makers that won't have any influence on gear stats is really very long.

[Var]

I think we've reached the end of the other discussion (though if you think I need to reply to something, let me know and I will, it just seems as if most of the topics covered have run their course). (As always I enjoy a good discussion, thanks for that.)

raspberry jam, on 29 November 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

Anyway: I remember a certain update for GW1 that was added for free some months after the release. Sorrow's Furnace was fun, one of the best dungeons I've played in any game, but if you didn't have Razorstone or Rago's Staff, if you used your random drop from the troll cave outside of Droknar's Forge, you were not any weaker for it (well, depending on the drop lol). That is what people mean when they say that in GW1 you were always up to date.

Trick of the matter is, you can do this with fractals to the limit where fractals no longer rewards anything new. This is where my issue stands with the current complaints. The content (in and of itself) is not gated and you can surpass agony with nothing more than player skill and ingenuity (yes, even the Maw though admittedly that requires either: environmental tools from across the game world post 20 or a guardian/elementalist). Reaching 20+ is as far as you would ever need to reach to earn everything that the dungeon has to offer (and by which point, the dungeon will also reward you (albeit stupidly rng heavy atm) with infused gear).

But much like SF, you are: not blocked from content, you can gain all the best gear with your troll staff of greater troll slaying, and is well designed.
But unlike SF, this brings: a new tier of gear that allows you to go deeper than you would sanely (as of now) need to go aside from a personal desire to see just how far down you can go (at which point, honestly, you're grinding because you want to grind and any other grind you are placing upon yourself of your own volition), no giant robots to fling molten lava.

I don't particularly care for the WvW arguments since no one has every complained about killing a level 2 in whites in WvW.

Protoss, on 29 November 2012 - 07:20 AM, said:

It took multiple expansions and a bunch of REALLY dumb ideas for GW1 to get there.
GW2 is in that place from the start.

I think this is what people are trying to say - mistakes will be made. But you need to recognize those actions as mistakes, hopefully learn from them and try to not make them again. In GW2 though, the actions that folks consider as mistakes, A.Net considers as ground blocks to build their game on.

Time is immaterial to the point that said talking point is false. Not to mention that it skims the details, the original GW1 at launch required an astounding amount of grind to "gear out" your character. Comparatively speaking, even Ascended Gear (and exotics are a nonstarter since they are effectively given to you at 80) is a light load when you think back to what it took to get that Superior Rune of Vigor off those Ettin.

Remember, I don't necessarily disagree with the concerns themselves but the points raised are often times well off the mark of reality.

Edited by Var, 29 November 2012 - 05:36 PM.

[raspberry jam]

Var, on 29 November 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Trick of the matter is, you can do this with fractals to the limit where fractals no longer rewards anything new. This is where my issue stands with the current complaints. The content (in and of itself) is not gated and you can surpass agony with nothing more than player skill and ingenuity (yes, even the Maw though admittedly that requires either: environmental tools from across the game world post 20 or a guardian/elementalist). Reaching 20+ is as far as you would ever need to reach to earn everything that the dungeon has to offer (and by which point, the dungeon will also reward you (albeit stupidly rng heavy atm) with infused gear).

But much like SF, you are: not blocked from content, you can gain all the best gear with your troll staff of greater troll slaying, and is well designed.
But unlike SF, this brings: a new tier of gear that allows you to go deeper than you would sanely (as of now) need to go aside from a personal desire to see just how far down you can go (at which point, honestly, you're grinding because you want to grind and any other grind you are placing upon yourself of your own volition), no giant robots to fling molten lava.

I don't particularly care for the WvW arguments since no one has every complained about killing a level 2 in whites in WvW.

No... what are you saying. I can do what with Fractals to that limit? That still means that you need to do Fractals, even if only up to that point. With Sorrow's Furnace, you didn't need to do anything at all because you could get items with the same stats from anywhere. Granted, at that time, those stats were quite rare. But they were still possible elsewhere. (Hell, Razorstone isn't even that good.)

That meant that you could totally ignore SF in every way possible and still be (potentially) on the same footing as someone who just spent 4 weeks there, farming 24/7. Meanwhile, you have to do FotM to stay up to date with people who already did it. Or, at least, you have to get that tier of gear. In GW1, you could max out quickly, and then stay logged off until one week before the next update... if that's what you wanted. Or you could play, of course, but the lack of pressure to do so is important to a lot of people, including myself.

I don't like killing level 2s in whites in WvW, by the way, but if vertical progression wasn't there, eventually most people would be maxed out. So the whole thing was tolerable. Until Nov 15 that is.

Edited by raspberry jam, 29 November 2012 - 06:05 PM.

[Var]

raspberry jam, on 29 November 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

No... what are you saying. I can do what with Fractals to that limit? That still means that you need to do Fractals, even if only up to that point. With Sorrow's Furnace, you didn't need to do anything at all because you could get items with the same stats from anywhere. Granted, at that time, those stats were quite rare. But they were still possible elsewhere. (Hell, Razorstone isn't even that good.)

That meant that you could totally ignore SF in every way possible and still be (potentially) on the same footing as someone who just spent 4 weeks there, farming 24/7. Meanwhile, you have to do FotM to stay up to date with people who already did it. Or, at least, you have to get that tier of gear. In GW1, you could max out quickly, and then stay logged off until one week before the next update... if that's what you wanted. Or you could play, of course, but the lack of pressure to do so is important to a lot of people, including myself.

That yes, is an issue and we've already agreed on the limited access to these items but, as has been already addressed, this is an issue that will be fixed and should, in principle, not happen again. I was speaking more on the principles of the content and what it offered rather than the, yes, currently faulty rewards-only-here system since I consider it an issue addressed as of the current point in time even if not yet fixed.

(Honestly, I think they did this on purpose to see how people liked said content.)

The point on the issue of pressure, from the standpoint of PvE-only, is that as Fractals have demonstrated the content does not need the gear until a point at which you're honestly (by my opinion) subjecting yourself to willful and known grinding. Like I said, you don't need Ascended or Infusions to experience the content onto the limits at which the dungeon stop even offering anything special.

raspberry jam, on 29 November 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

I don't like killing level 2s in whites in WvW, by the way, but if vertical progression wasn't there, eventually most people would be maxed out. So the whole thing was tolerable. Until Nov 15 that is.

But vertical progression has been there since launch. If a player only wanted WvW, they would have to face people much stronger than them from 2 to 80 until they finally reached 80 and then finally specced out. Adding infinite progression is an issue but progression has been there nevertheless...

As of Nov.15, the statement still remains true anyway, people will eventually be maxed out.

Edited by Var, 29 November 2012 - 06:27 PM.

[Ritualist]

Var, on 29 November 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Time is immaterial to the point that said talking point is false. Not to mention that it skims the details, the original GW1 at launch required an astounding amount of grind to "gear out" your character. Comparatively speaking, even Ascended Gear (and exotics are a nonstarter since they are effectively given to you at 80) is a light load when you think back to what it took to get that Superior Rune of Vigor off those Ettin.

Remember, I don't necessarily disagree with the concerns themselves but the points raised are often times well off the mark of reality.

Mistakes were made in GW1. Why would this be used to justify repeating them again? Especially when A.Net already found solutions to these issues in GW1?

[Var]

Protoss, on 29 November 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

Mistakes were made in GW1. Why would this be used to justify repeating them again? Especially when A.Net already found solutions to these issues in GW1?

Mistakes were also not made again (like progression locked PvP content or PvP and PvE being tied to each other or PvP formats being tied to each other by Sigils). And not everything you or I consider wrong, is what everyone considers wrong.

Edited by Var, 29 November 2012 - 06:25 PM.

[moomooo1]

I just have to applaud Var, arguing in such a very rational and calm way, especially as he's often defending(or shedding light on) the unpopular viewpoint. Very great discussion in this thread!

Just to add to the fire, noting polls on GW2guru or any other site really isn't really indicative of true player wants. Especially GW2guru, many of the members here are GW1 fans who came to this site prior to GW2's release. Naturally players who come from GW1 will disagree with these changes. But moreover, not any one site can provide a proper representation of the player base. Of the 10 or 11 friends I have that play GW2, casual or hardcore, only 3 of us keep ourselves informed via community sites. Of the same 11 people, I would say 6 people have started playing with renewed vigor come FotM and VP.

I know that this goes against what they originally said and all and I'm not disputing that. I just think it unfair to think that the majority of the player base has the same opinion as the majority of this site's community. Arenanet's decisions may(and probably are) be made on the basis of attracting as many players as possible. Whether or not this provides a long term solution is yet to be determined.

[Ritualist]

Var, on 29 November 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Mistakes were also not made again (like progression locked PvP content or PvP and PvE being tied to each other or PvP formats being tied to each other by Sigils). And not everything you or I consider wrong, is what everyone considers wrong.

I know, we are acting as if not failing would be something we expect. Maybe we should reward them just for trying.
Also, the question is - what are we basing our takes on GW2 on? Are was saying that A.Net got things wrong with GW2 because orange, or are we saying that things are wrong because they seem to contradict what we were sold the game as?

[witteker]

VP and HP.  Why cater to only one?  Why not cater to both, as parallel progression?  PP.  HP still exists to a greater extant than VP right now.  Keep both and satisfy all parties.  But you're saying VP creates unbalance.  I doubt this.  The VP unbalance is minimal, and due to fact that the classes are so similar, those balance issues can be resolved.  WvW and SPvP really are not weighed heavily by balance issues either, by design.  If they open up PvP to other models like arenas or some other forms, maybe there is a balance issue.

[BrettM]

Major_Disaster, on 29 November 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

I think this whole mess has come about from the perceived need to "Keep People Playing".

Gem shop.

It isn't necessary to keep people playing to sell items like costumes, since those only have to be bought once. GW1 cash shop had only those types of buy-once, use-forever items, so it didn't matter how much time a player spent in-game, as long as they came back now and then to see any new offerings. They could make about as much money from someone who logged on once a month as from someone who played eight hours a day. More, in fact, if the monthly player liked costumes and the daily player didn't.

People who aren't playing GW2 aren't getting Black Lion Chests to tempt them into buying keys to open those chests. People who aren't playing aren't getting their armor damaged, tempting them to invest in some repair cannisters for times when the nearest repair NPC is an inconvenient distance away. People who aren't playing don't have any need for convenience items like bank and merchant access, for Black Lion Salvage Kits, for XP boosters, or for other consumable items that will need replacement. While none of these things are strictly necessary to play GW2, the more you play, the more you are annoyed by the built-in inconveniences that just happen to have a cure waiting in the cash shop. Once you fall into the convenience trap, the more you play, the more often you must replace those convenience items.

ANet has every reason to place emphasis on keeping people playing now.

[ScoutMATH]

Zero_Soulreaver, on 29 November 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

I'm sorry but I am sick of seeing the Manifesto vid posted over and over.  That Manifesto was tossed in the trash a week after release anyway and if you didn't notice then I kinda feel sorry for ya.  It was a trap and you fell for it, I am sorry to say.

i still play the game because i wanna be an asshole to arena.net. yes, i will slap in their faces the manifesto that made me bought the game.

and ill do it everytime that im in the mood.

Edited by ScoutMATH, 29 November 2012 - 08:08 PM.

[Briar]

^ But the people who will be buying said cash shop items are the super casual. People who are fine with grinding day in and day out will be awash in both gold and time - they do not need to buy convince items

Really I only see two options

1) They are delusional and actually think stat rewards are fun (which they only are if you have no experience with the bliss of not having them)

2) Its a conspiracy to hyper-inflate the gold/gem ratio so that more people buy gems with cash instead of gold AND/OR to preserve stat grind based gold sinks

Really I think #1 is the most likely. They think that stat rewards are fun, WoW mindset gamers support them and both forget that this game was marketed to an audience of gamers that completely disagree

Edit:

Forgot 3) someone at anet thinks its fun upset the fan base, and they are very good at it

Edited by Briar, 29 November 2012 - 08:13 PM.

[DuskWolf]

raspberry jam, on 29 November 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

I don't like killing level 2s in whites in WvW, by the way, but if vertical progression wasn't there, eventually most people would be maxed out. So the whole thing was tolerable. Until Nov 15 that is.

That's exactly it, isn't it?

Vertical progression introduces the placebo affect of faux awesomeness. You have big numbers. Oh those big, sexy numbers. You don't need to actually be good at a game, because the game plays itself. And hey, even in PvP you can abuse those low level players, you can gank them all you like and feel like you have some self worth. Pathetic.

In a good game, a game that has horizontal progression, you can't count on numbers to solve your problems. This is why I think that the vertical progression preachers haven't played a game like Grand Theft Auto in their life, since they'd be sent crying home about how the game punishes them for making poor choices, or for being bad at the game. How about VVVVVV? They'd likely throw their computers across the room. Even Bomberman would likely fill them with self-loathing.

And that's the point. Veritcal progression's placebo effect results in... well, people I can't respect.

In good game design, a player's inputs decide whether they win or lose, their choices, their reflexes, their practise. It's not about having those sexy numbers. So in a PvP game that doesn't have vertical progression, like Counterstrike, you can't count on numbers to provide you a buffer-zone of comfortable faux awesomeness, you can't have it play the game for you. Again, I bet Counterstrike is something that vertical progression fans haven't played, and if they have, they likely think that it's an awful game people because they're bad at it and it doesn't make them feel awesome.

But this placebo effect is shitty!

I mean, really, think about it. Don't you want to actually be good at something because you're good? If you want to feel awesome, why not just watch a film? Or some action-oriented cartoons? Go watch Transformers: Prime, it's a great show and probably what would make you happy. But if you're playing a game, why would you want a mechanic in place (vertical progression) which essentially means the game plays itself. The only thing there is time investment. You grind for the best gear, then bam, you automatically win!

I'll use the Mario argument again, since that's been ingored by vertical progression fans and it's a damned good one. So, okay, what if we added vertical progression to Super Mario Bros? Okay, so you now have a number of stat bars. One increases the longevity of the invulnerability star, one allows you to do double jumps (up to a maximum of 8), one allows you to take more hits before you shrink back down to mini-mario, and so on. So, yeah, once you've maxed out the bars you're going to be feeling awesome, since you'll be double-jumping over pits, being invulnerable against bosses, and ultimately... you can't lose.

On what planet is that desirable?

Again, if you want an experience where you can't lose due to the stat buffer of faux awesomeness, why are you even playing games? This is my argument against vertical progression. Vertical progression creates bad and shameless players who love being bad and will defend their right to be have faux awesomeness via time spent tooth and nail. Because you gotta gank those level 1 noobs in white, right? Pathetic.

So raspberry jam is indeed right. WvWvW is made less meaningful by the vertical progression of GW2. But at least with the power plateau, you could get to level 80 and be on an even playing field with everyone else. This meant that shameless players who loved their faux awesome couldn't win purely by the merit of sexy numbers. But now that ArenaNet are adding in tiers of gear, it means that faux awesomeness is ruling the day again.

And I just don't understand on what planet that's desirable.

Do you enjoy being bad and kind of pathetic? With a little practise, you could be amazing! I play Mass Effect 3 on multi-player, and I suffer with no less than three debilitating disabilities. So basically, a seriously disabled person is calling vertical progression fans on being more than a little bit shamelessly bad. And your response is?

[Auenwing]

In the end, no matter what the customers may wish, the devs own the game, the vision for the game and the game's future.

They are free to do with the game what they will.

The customers are then free to accept, tolerate or walk away.

[Zippor]

DuskWolf, on 29 November 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

That's exactly it, isn't it?

Vertical progression introduces the placebo affect of faux awesomeness. You have big numbers. Oh those big, sexy numbers. You don't need to actually be good at a game, because the game plays itself. And hey, even in PvP you can abuse those low level players, you can gank them all you like and feel like you have some self worth. Pathetic.

In a good game, a game that has horizontal progression, you can't count on numbers to solve your problems. This is why I think that the vertical progression preachers haven't played a game like Grand Theft Auto in their life, since they'd be sent crying home about how the game punishes them for making poor choices, or for being bad at the game. How about VVVVVV? They'd likely throw their computers across the room. Even Bomberman would likely fill them with self-loathing.

And that's the point. Veritcal progression's placebo effect results in... well, people I can't respect.

In good game design, a player's inputs decide whether they win or lose, their choices, their reflexes, their practise. It's not about having those sexy numbers. So in a PvP game that doesn't have vertical progression, like Counterstrike, you can't count on numbers to provide you a buffer-zone of comfortable faux awesomeness, you can't have it play the game for you. Again, I bet Counterstrike is something that vertical progression fans haven't played, and if they have, they likely think that it's an awful game people because they're bad at it and it doesn't make them feel awesome.

But this placebo effect is shitty!

I mean, really, think about it. Don't you want to actually be good at something because you're good? If you want to feel awesome, why not just watch a film? Or some action-oriented cartoons? Go watch Transformers: Prime, it's a great show and probably what would make you happy. But if you're playing a game, why would you want a mechanic in place (vertical progression) which essentially means the game plays itself. The only thing there is time investment. You grind for the best gear, then bam, you automatically win!

I'll use the Mario argument again, since that's been ingored by vertical progression fans and it's a damned good one. So, okay, what if we added vertical progression to Super Mario Bros? Okay, so you now have a number of stat bars. One increases the longevity of the invulnerability star, one allows you to do double jumps (up to a maximum of 8), one allows you to take more hits before you shrink back down to mini-mario, and so on. So, yeah, once you've maxed out the bars you're going to be feeling awesome, since you'll be double-jumping over pits, being invulnerable against bosses, and ultimately... you can't lose.

On what planet is that desirable?

Again, if you want an experience where you can't lose due to the stat buffer of faux awesomeness, why are you even playing games? This is my argument against vertical progression. Vertical progression creates bad and shameless players who love being bad and will defend their right to be have faux awesomeness via time spent tooth and nail. Because you gotta gank those level 1 noobs in white, right? Pathetic.

So raspberry jam is indeed right. WvWvW is made less meaningful by the vertical progression of GW2. But at least with the power plateau, you could get to level 80 and be on an even playing field with everyone else. This meant that shameless players who loved their faux awesome couldn't win purely by the merit of sexy numbers. But now that ArenaNet are adding in tiers of gear, it means that faux awesomeness is ruling the day again.

And I just don't understand on what planet that's desirable.

Do you enjoy being bad and kind of pathetic? With a little practise, you could be amazing! I play Mass Effect 3 on multi-player, and I suffer with no less than three debilitating disabilities. So basically, a seriously disabled person is calling vertical progression fans on being more than a little bit shamelessly bad. And your response is?

I like being good while getting boosted a bit by the vertical progression. It's just one of those things where you can just expect to win in most of the situations and that is kind of relaxing. I see WvW as the playground where the people with biggest toys most of the time beat the ones without, it's fun and mindless and doesn't really require anything but good combination of class/gear/spec. When I do want serious test though, I would go into sPvP since it is limited in that sense. You cannot trust on getting any edge from stats and it makes it a bit more serious. If only the sPvP side was in a good enough shape to support it, it needs some serious changes which I hear are going to be addressed but it's been quite long already.

[Var]

DuskWolf, on 29 November 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

In a good game, a game that has horizontal progression, you can't count on numbers to solve your problems. This is why I think that the vertical progression preachers haven't played a game like Grand Theft Auto in their life, since they'd be sent crying home about how the game punishes them for making poor choices, or for being bad at the game. How about VVVVVV? They'd likely throw their computers across the room. Even Bomberman would likely fill them with self-loathing.

You seem to be wringing a fallacy with quite a bit of gusto since, by sentence structure, you seem to imply that "a good game" is a game with only horizontal progression which is a completely indefensible statement; there are critically acclaimed games of all shapes and types and you, good sir, have no say on what anyone else on this world considers a good game. Stat progression, ie vertical progression, has been a staple of Western and Eastern RPGs for a long, long time. The metrovania genre, and two series to which the name can be attributed, have always had vertical "get stronger" progression, and I'm almost certain you're going to find critically acclaimed games in either of the above stated genres.

The issue isn't vertical progression, the issue is endless and/or gating progression. The "endless" is a problem for MMOs because they don't tend to have "an end" and "gating" has been notorious in many franchises by forcing gear checks to even view/experience content (ie. the treadmill), and while the former is a valid concern and one that people are more than free to dislike (like raspberry), the latter is as of so far a nonstarter in this scenario because the only content currently provided has no such "gear check" on experiencing the content or getting the best rewards (not even an exotic check). What we do have is an issue of stupid tiering on entry, which will be going away to a large degree soon, and limiting everything to a single area of the game, forcing people to do something they may not necessarily enjoy.

DuskWolf, on 29 November 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

Do you enjoy being bad and kind of pathetic? With a little practise, you could be amazing! I play Mass Effect 3 on multi-player, and I suffer with no less than three debilitating disabilities. So basically, a seriously disabled person is calling vertical progression fans on being more than a little bit shamelessly bad. And your response is?

That you couldn't hope to piece together a post without resorting to "calling out" people if your life depended on it. That's not how you structure an argument in which you wish for someone to take you seriously. It is not a discussion, it is mudslinging and it is boring to read.

Edited by Var, 29 November 2012 - 11:38 PM.

[raspberry jam]

Var, on 29 November 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

That yes, is an issue and we've already agreed on the limited access to these items but, as has been already addressed, this is an issue that will be fixed and should, in principle, not happen again. I was speaking more on the principles of the content and what it offered rather than the, yes, currently faulty rewards-only-here system since I consider it an issue addressed as of the current point in time even if not yet fixed.

(Honestly, I think they did this on purpose to see how people liked said content.)

The point on the issue of pressure, from the standpoint of PvE-only, is that as Fractals have demonstrated the content does not need the gear until a point at which you're honestly (by my opinion) subjecting yourself to willful and known grinding. Like I said, you don't need Ascended or Infusions to experience the content onto the limits at which the dungeon stop even offering anything special.



But vertical progression has been there since launch. If a player only wanted WvW, they would have to face people much stronger than them from 2 to 80 until they finally reached 80 and then finally specced out. Adding infinite progression is an issue but progression has been there nevertheless...

As of Nov.15, the statement still remains true anyway, people will eventually be maxed out.

But it won't be fixed. It can't, because in GW1, you could have a weapon with the stats of any Sorrow's Furnace green even before the SF update was even launched. The only way to fix the issue is to make ascended and exotic items have the same stats. Not gonna happen.

And that you don't need ascended items until you reach a high level in Fractals is beside the point, since the stats on these items (including infusions, since they can confer other stats than agony resistance!) make them necessary outside of Fractals as well. That is, as necessary as any other stats (theoretically, you can play in level 80 areas with level 50 gear but who wants to do that?).

As I said, the vertical progression was tolerable since there was an expectation of it peaking out at some point. Perhaps you missed when I said that, but I did.
And no, there will be infinite progression, they'll increase the level cap and add more gear (perhaps after 3 months, perhaps not), so no, there is no longer any cap to guarantee that people will max out.

Var, on 29 November 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

you, good sir, have no say on what anyone else on this world considers a good game

"Good game" always mean "good game for me". It's the only even remotely valid way to understand the term. That subjectivity does not invalidate Duskwolf's argument, though.

[raspberry jam]

DuskWolf, on 29 November 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

Again, if you want an experience where you can't lose due to the stat buffer of faux awesomeness, why are you even playing games? This is my argument against vertical progression. Vertical progression creates bad and shameless players who love being bad and will defend their right to be have faux awesomeness via time spent tooth and nail. Because you gotta gank those level 1 noobs in white, right? Pathetic.

Exactly this! I've always said that MMOs is the favorite genre of wannabe-hardcore casuals. They don't care about the game, they don't care about dedication or becoming actually good at it. The old saying "easy to learn, hard to master" means nothing to them: they don't even want a game, they want a sequence of events that ends with them winning. Sure, that's what we all want, right...? Nnnnope. I want a sequence of events which tests my skill and allows me to win if I'm good enough. To me, that's the difference between casual and hardcore gamers.

[Zippor]

You do a whole alot of assuming. Just because someone occasionally enjoys being eased off to win, doesn't necessarily mean they wouldn't value dedication or challenge elsewhere. If I remember right, WvW was advertised as something easy to hop into, have a little pvp action without having it being serious, while contributing to a server-wide warfare. Ascended gear seriously wrecks some of the balance in 1v1 or small scale fights since they do give enough stats to make up with mistakes to some extent. But as long as the gear is not streamlined in WvW, it's not about skill or balance in any way. And even if the gear was balanced, the whole fights still most likely wouldn't be, WvW being designed as something where you could easily see someone come help you in a 1v1 situation, even against your will.

Edited by Zippor, 30 November 2012 - 02:55 PM.

[XPhiler]

What I dont understand is how people who say they are so focused on horizontal progression are so obsessed with power!

There is a very simply solution to this whole issue! Simply ignore ascended gear, ignore FoTM

This whole without Ascended gear people are going to walk all over me in WvW is ridiculous, they're not! gear yourselves in rares and test it out yourselves if you dont beleive me!

For people who say power should not be the focus of the game you surely focus on power !
I stopped building my exotic set after 2 Items! (and I am including Accessories here!) I had one Exotic Item drop
so when doing WvW I have 3 exotic parts and 9 rare parts! I can assure you first hand experiance you will not be killed all the time! far from it! I am not even a PvP player by any strech and my death to kill ratio is ridiculous ! I bet its close to 10 kills for 1 death!

Gear is not as important as you people thing, If you ignore the ascended gear set nothing bad is going to happen !

I honestly dont understand why people get so worked up over this!

[BrettM]

Briar, on 29 November 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

2) Its a conspiracy to hyper-inflate the gold/gem ratio so that more people buy gems with cash instead of gold AND/OR to preserve stat grind based gold sinks

But the gems that people are buying with gold did not come out of thin air. Someone had to spend cash to get them into the game at all, and they bought them with the specific intent of selling them for gold. Forcing the buyers to buy their own gems directly would result in fewer gem sales overall, because the current sellers would have no reason to buy them for resale and the customers of those sellers are obviously reluctant to spend cash to get them, leading them to cut back on their use of gems.

XPhiler, on 30 November 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

There is a very simply solution to this whole issue! Simply ignore ascended gear, ignore FoTM

Yes, that is the right solution in the short term, but it doesn't work in the long term given that we know there will be future introductions of even-higher stats. You can feasibly play in starter gear for five, ten, or even more levels. But, it becomes increasingly painful to do so, and at some point you absolutely have to get an upgrade. That point will eventually come for those in current Exotic gear. While it never makes sense to whine before you KNOW you're going to be hurt, it does make sense to whine when you can see the harpoon headed right for you with no chance of dodging it. Only the shooter has a chance of tugging on the line and stopping it.

How soon will we be hurt? Maybe sooner than some would like to believe. Right now it only happens in situations that are nearly too close to call, as with Jam's example of winning a close contest because of an extra 40 HP. But that could change very quickly.

For example, right now Agony is only found in the deeper levels of FotM. What if some near-future content update adds monsters with Agony to new open-world content on the island? Or to some new level-80 zone or dungeon? How optional will it be then to have gear with infusion slots? What if they add new infusions of even greater power, as they seem to be planning? What if they add new conditions -- Misery, Spasm, Paroxysm, Avada Kedavra -- that can only be dealt with by new infusions?

Edited by BrettM, 30 November 2012 - 03:16 PM.

[Zero_Soulreaver]

I feel like they really rushed this and didn't think about it.  Vert. progression only works with games that are stat based, skill based, role based and gear based.  It doesn't work with a game that has none of these to start off of.  You now have 2 tiers of progression and nothing to do with them other than what you have been doing since day 1.

Roles don't fully work in this game.  Their is no trinity, that's fine but how do you build up your character to be anything more than DPS or sometimes healer with this new gear? You don't, It's still the same crap you were doing from the start just that you are stronger or w/e.

I do understand why people are mad.  I mean honestly this game is more setup to be horiz. progression based because of how it plays.  If they started off defining roles more in depth than they are right now I would say different.  It doesn't have to be a trinity but give us something more than just every guy/girl is the same besides heals.  Even if there were more skills based for each character and gear worked off of that it would work better.

[raspberry jam]

Zippor, on 30 November 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

You do a whole alot of assuming. Just because someone occasionally enjoys being eased off to win, doesn't necessarily mean they wouldn't value dedication or challenge elsewhere. If I remember right, WvW was advertised as something easy to hop into, have a little pvp action without having it being serious, while contributing to a server-wide warfare. Ascended gear seriously wrecks some of the balance in 1v1 or small scale fights since they do give enough stats to make up with mistakes to some extent. But as long as the gear is not streamlined in WvW, it's not about skill or balance in any way. And even if the gear was balanced, the whole fights still most likely wouldn't be, WvW being designed as something where you could easily see someone come help you in a 1v1 situation, even against your will.

So tell me, what is the point of that "PvP action" you talk about? Would it satisfy you if you ran in, you spam attacks, your enemy spam attacks, and the combat is decided by an RNG. Would you be ok with that?

Not a rhetorical question, I really am asking. Would you be ok with the combat being decided by something neither of you can affect from where you are at the moment of the combat itself?

XPhiler, on 30 November 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

What I dont understand is how people who say they are so focused on horizontal progression are so obsessed with power!

There is a very simply solution to this whole issue! Simply ignore ascended gear, ignore FoTM

This whole without Ascended gear people are going to walk all over me in WvW is ridiculous, they're not! gear yourselves in rares and test it out yourselves if you dont beleive me!

For people who say power should not be the focus of the game you surely focus on power !
I stopped building my exotic set after 2 Items! (and I am including Accessories here!) I had one Exotic Item drop
so when doing WvW I have 3 exotic parts and 9 rare parts! I can assure you first hand experiance you will not be killed all the time! far from it! I am not even a PvP player by any strech and my death to kill ratio is ridiculous ! I bet its close to 10 kills for 1 death!

Gear is not as important as you people thing, If you ignore the ascended gear set nothing bad is going to happen !

I honestly dont understand why people get so worked up over this!

I have won a WvW fight because I was wearing ascended gear.

Of course people who like horizontal progression think a lot about power; the reason we want horizontal progression is that we enjoy the challenge of figuring out how to cram the most power out of the tools given us. I don't just mean min/maxing, I mean actual skilled play. When vertical progression exists, the problem have a very easy solution: simply get more powerful stuff, or level up, or whatever else the progression is based on. Since the solution is so simple, the challenge does not appeal to people who prefer horizontal progression.

[XPhiler]

BrettM, on 30 November 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

Yes, that is the right solution in the short term, but it doesn't work in the long term given that we know there will be future introductions of even-higher stats. You can feasibly play in starter gear for five, ten, or even more levels. But, it becomes increasingly painful to do so, and at some point you absolutely have to get an upgrade. That point will eventually come for those in current Exotic gear. While it never makes sense to whine before you KNOW you're going to be hurt, it does make sense to whine when you can see the harpoon headed right for you with no chance of dodging it. Only the shooter has a chance of tugging on the line and stopping it.

How soon will we be hurt? Maybe sooner than some would like to believe. Right now it only happens in situations that are nearly too close to call, as with Jam's example of winning a close contest because of an extra 40 HP. But that could change very quickly.

For example, right now Agony is only found in the deeper levels of FotM. What if some near-future content update adds monsters with Agony to new open-world content on the island? Or to some new level-80 zone or dungeon? How optional will it be then to have gear with infusion slots? What if they add new infusions of even greater power, as they seem to be planning? What if they add new conditions -- Misery, Spasm, Paroxysm, Avada Kedavra -- that can only be dealt with by new infusions?

So your harpoon coming our way with no chance to dodge it is the possibility that in the near-future  they *might* introduce monsters in the open world with Agony? How is that both a certainity and well a possibility?

I can do that too.. what if they make a u-turn and drop all this ascended gear / agony stuff and you spend a month grinding at something you hate for nothing?

I would be surprised if they ever introduce Agony in the open world! Why? because they clearly designed Gw2 to be viable to play for people who want horizontal progression and those who want vertical progression! you can see it in everything they did!

SPvP being on equal grounds for everyone
PvE being all doable with any gear tier you use
WvW scaling everyone to level 80
FoTM being entirely playable without any Ascended gear!

Thats all a compromise between horizontal and vertical

If I dont want to bother even getting a rare gear set I can play absolutely everything the game has to offer including the content target specifically at people who want vertical progression or the FoTM!

People are acting as if they suddenly decided to ditch horzontal progression and focus exclusively on verticial progression but they did no such thing! Like from day one its all a balance! you want to play the game horizontally you just can play anything horizontally. You want verticial progression You got that too!

Why would they dump that physolofy of allowing both play styles by adding monsters with agony in the open world? What advantage would that give to anyone?

No offense to Jam but thats a collossal assumption! see my reply to them for more details!

[XPhiler]

raspberry jam, on 30 November 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

I have won a WvW fight because I was wearing ascended gear.

Of course people who like horizontal progression think a lot about power; the reason we want horizontal progression is that we enjoy the challenge of figuring out how to cram the most power out of the tools given us. I don't just mean min/maxing, I mean actual skilled play. When vertical progression exists, the problem have a very easy solution: simply get more powerful stuff, or level up, or whatever else the progression is based on. Since the solution is so simple, the challenge does not appeal to people who prefer horizontal progression.

How can you tell you won because you had 40 hp more?

Let me assume this was a 1 on 1 fight with no other external factors cause this would other wise become huge !

How do you know you you didnt win because at some point during the fight your oponent did not do the following to 1 single attack  attack you did: (I dont mean every single attack I mean 1 extra time or 1 time if s/he actually never did any of these)

Dodge
Blind
Fear
daze
Cripple you
reflect an attack
use retaliate

How do you know you didnt not win because he missed to use at some point: (I dont mean every single attack I mean 1 extra time or 1 time if s/he actually never did any of these)
give himself 1 stack of might, fury, stability, vigor
or give himself a single: regeneration, protection

Or inflict on you a single
Confusion, vulnerability, weakness

How do you know you won because he didnt consume:
A clam chowder, poulty soup, poultry and leak soup, lemon grass poultry soup, Gown pie, Pumpkin Pie, Glazed Pumpkin pie, peach pie, Mango pie, roasemery roast, roast meat with mint, roast meat with braised leek, orrian steak frittes, Portobello soup, Creamy mushroom soup, Snow truffle soup, Orrian truffle soup, Vegetable stock, Kale soup, Curry pumpkin soup, cheery cookie, blackberry cookie, peach cookie, omnomberry cookie  <--- anyway these are the food that will give you 40+ extra HP I could do the same list that will give more power, damage and conditional damage

I have also negelected to mention because this is just getting to long, the stats on your armor in relation to your play style, your trait setup, your choice of utility skills, your chosen weapon, the stategy you use for the fight, mistakes that could have been made on either side, even a simple bird could fly in and block one of your attacks making you miss (it accutally happened) etc...

simply speaking my point is I know some players dont see it but there are a ton of layers and complexities to the Gw2 combat system that saying I won a fight because I had 40 extra hp is meaningless!

Its like saying A particular war was won because of the last soldier who fired his gun and killed an enemy! Sure no doubt it helped but a lot more went through the whole process!

Also the scenario listed above is of a 1 on 1 fight in an open field something that nearly never happens in WvW imagine when this same factors need to be considered for every signel player in a fight, the relative positional advantages, siege weapons, defensive positions such as castle walls, recruited allies, tower guards etc...

Yes I am sure those 40 hp will decide every single combat and mean the difference between victory or defeat !

lets be realistic please shall we?

[raspberry jam]

XPhiler, on 30 November 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

How can you tell you won because you had 40 hp more?

Let me assume this was a 1 on 1 fight with no other external factors cause this would other wise become huge !

How do you know you you didnt win because at some point during the fight your oponent did not do the following to 1 single attack  attack you did: (I dont mean every single attack I mean 1 extra time or 1 time if s/he actually never did any of these)

Dodge
Blind
Fear
daze
Cripple you
reflect an attack
use retaliate

How do you know you didnt not win because he missed to use at some point: (I dont mean every single attack I mean 1 extra time or 1 time if s/he actually never did any of these)
give himself 1 stack of might, fury, stability, vigor
or give himself a single: regeneration, protection

Or inflict on you a single
Confusion, vulnerability, weakness

How do you know you won because he didnt consume:
A clam chowder, poulty soup, poultry and leak soup, lemon grass poultry soup, Gown pie, Pumpkin Pie, Glazed Pumpkin pie, peach pie, Mango pie, roasemery roast, roast meat with mint, roast meat with braised leek, orrian steak frittes, Portobello soup, Creamy mushroom soup, Snow truffle soup, Orrian truffle soup, Vegetable stock, Kale soup, Curry pumpkin soup, cheery cookie, blackberry cookie, peach cookie, omnomberry cookie  <--- anyway these are the food that will give you 40+ extra HP I could do the same list that will give more power, damage and conditional damage

I have also negelected to mention because this is just getting to long, the stats on your armor in relation to your play style, your trait setup, your choice of utility skills, your chosen weapon, the stategy you use for the fight, mistakes that could have been made on either side, even a simple bird could fly in and block one of your attacks making you miss (it accutally happened) etc...

simply speaking my point is I know some players dont see it but there are a ton of layers and complexities to the Gw2 combat system that saying I won a fight because I had 40 extra hp is meaningless!

Its like saying A particular war was won because of the last soldier who fired his gun and killed an enemy! Sure no doubt it helped but a lot more went through the whole process!

Also the scenario listed above is of a 1 on 1 fight in an open field something that nearly never happens in WvW imagine when this same factors need to be considered for every signel player in a fight, the relative positional advantages, siege weapons, defensive positions such as castle walls, recruited allies, tower guards etc...

Yes I am sure those 40 hp will decide every single combat and mean the difference between victory or defeat !

lets be realistic please shall we?

Everyone else already understood this, but I'll explain.

I see your point, but it is completely irrelevant. I was playing as well as I could, and I would do the things I did in either case. I do not know how my opponent chose to do the things he did, but unless he based his moves on the exact amount of health he had, with an accuracy of 40 health, which is quite improbable given that a character in WvW have thousands of health, it is reasonable to assume that he would have done the same things as he did in either case as well. That includes consuming any amount of items, applying any amount of conditions, etc. etc., it would have been the same if I had been wearing only exotics. External factors such as castle walls and birds (what?) would not have affected the battle either, not because no such factors were present, but because they would have been present (or not) to the same degree anyway.

Since both our move sequences, and the effect from external factors, can be assumed to have been the same regardless of whether I would be wearing exotics or exotics + ascendeds, the only cases left is that I either won because I was wearing ascendeds, or that I would have won regardless, but with an even smaller margin. However, math seems to imply that the damage margin is larger than 40 health; instead, he would have survived with a couple of hundred health.

Of course, if you let someone else play in my stead (thus making different moves than I did), that person might have lost, or won with more than 40 health. But that is irrelevant because then it would be that person playing, not me.

I won because I was wearing ascended items.

[Zippor]

raspberry jam, on 30 November 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

So tell me, what is the point of that "PvP action" you talk about? Would it satisfy you if you ran in, you spam attacks, your enemy spam attacks, and the combat is decided by an RNG. Would you be ok with that?

Not a rhetorical question, I really am asking. Would you be ok with the combat being decided by something neither of you can affect from where you are at the moment of the combat itself?

Of course I wouldn't be okay with that, and the game isn't at a state like that. Not yet, anyway.

[Capn_Crass]

Var, on 29 November 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

The metrovania genre, and two series to which the name can be attributed, have always had vertical "get stronger" progression...

Metroid did to a limited extent (suit and beam upgrades; no character stats), but Castlevania sure as hell didn't. Prior to Symphony of the Night, the closest the Castlevania series got to any kind of character progression was "whip => chain whip => long chain whip". Super Mario Bros. had more "character progression" than Castlevania.

[Faowri]

Quote

Because it's fun to be challenged and rewarded. Because it's fun to have the character you play grow and evolve over time. Because ArenaNet (sort of) held a hard line against all VP with GW1 -- no VP ever, year after year -- and it wasn't that fun. It was stagnant.

What :I I don't even . . . It never goes down that well when developers tell players of their games what they're meant to find fun. Especially when that pretty much involves telling every loyal GW1 lover that their game was stagnant and unfun.

Edited by Faowri, 30 November 2012 - 05:09 PM.