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The Evasive Conditions Tournament Ranger - Sword/Dagger and Axe/Torch


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#31 Garethh

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 05:49 AM

View PostXsorus, on 30 November 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

Cleansing the Double Poisons is almost useless, It's got such a short cooldown... You'd have to be a Elementalist really to keep up with it.

Axe has a Chill+Weakness, Which is probably one of the best Defensive Combo's in the game....

Sword's Mobility is actually shit for catching targets (It's great for staying on targets, Not great for actually catching them, If someone is running from you.. before you can get to them..Sword is pretty shit)

What would be your combo chain?

It's 600 Extra Damage that's pretty easy to land, You should also use it on cooldown as much as possible, It's a Cripple+Bleed, that does very good damage..and it's got a very short cooldown..

As for what else you pickup, If you go 20 Points in the line, you get Vigor on Bird Swap...Very useful, Wolves get the cripple, which is alright I suppose, still not sold on it. Vigor is just so much better.

Bout the only reasonable thing you can pickup if you don't go Nature's Healing, is picking up Malice Training.....and running Spiders with the Wolf/Spider tactic at 20 points in Beast.

If you're running Bows, i actually recommend that pretty much 100% over Dogs, as you can keep up Cripple on the target, 100% by Pet Swapping
??
Cleansing a double poison isn't good?
Your way, you can only apply poison while one weapon set is up, and you put out 18s of it... verse putting out 10 on one set and 6 on the other, its a better rounded way, no?
Poison isn't a good offensive condition, the very, very best purpose of it is to disrupt healing (effectively a bonus 2-3k dmg) so clumping it together is a lil redundant.

A 3s chill increases enemy abilities on Cooldown recharge time by 2s.
Weakness is worse against higher dps enemies (since they crit more).
They are good, but not enough to be self sufficient for a set.
Not by any means.

Sword is good for catching people, turn around and hornet's sting ;)
Monarchs leap right after if you screw up and aim it badly.

You use the dagger evade for the evade mainly not the poison, the poison is just a possible extra if the situation allows it.  Axe having splitblade means that it will be close to melee range at times so a fair amount of time those things do line up.
I run shortbow axe-dagger so you don't necessarily have to swap weapons after splitblade, its still pretty possible in the majority of situations to manage with that set, and with a 10s weapon swap CD that is pretty important.

Long duration immobilizes are pretty much all dodgeable.  Even if you can't, protect me is a solid answer to it or at worse weapon swapping for that second evade... they aren't that common, over 1s immobilizes that I can't dodge...

I hate the word 'chain'... especially when it comes to condition dmg...
You do not blow everything on CD in a strict order... pretty much ever...
For the best of the condition dmg, in the most general combo its spike trap -> geomancy sigil swap -> splitblade -> crippling talon but I next to never do that.  I spike trap -> splitblade allll the time, or pet knockdown -> splitblade but rarely do I stack more than 1 other abilities condition dmg with it.
Rarely does an enemy worth fighting have no cleansing.
Rarely do you have all your CDs up against an enemy who blew their cleansing and any way to stop a chain of attacks.
You are just setting yourself up to flounder by blowing all of those abilities in a row.
You seem to love the idea of it though so I'll let it die, I don't feel like raging about the words 'you should blow crippling talon on CD' right now...
Whatever works for you...
><

Oh and a tier 1 trait in skirmishing gives better vigor than the 'on bird swap' one, without the pet requirement.
The cripple on spider is nifty, I like the 2s knockdowns and aoe fear/imob a bit more.
Especially if your spec has a few chills/cripples on it already to keep enemies in the knockdown-leap range.

Edited by Garethh, 01 December 2012 - 05:57 AM.


#32 Xsorus

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:16 AM

Quote

Cleansing a double poison isn't good?
Your way, you can only apply poison while one weapon set is up, and you put out 18s of it... verse putting out 10 on one set and 6 on the other, its a better rounded way, no?
Poison isn't a good offensive condition, the very, very best purpose of it is to disrupt healing (effectively a bonus 2-3k dmg) so clumping it together is a lil redundant.

Most Cleaning in this game removes 1 maybe 2 Conditions each time, If you're dumping conditions on the target they can't keep up...You can choose to waste your condition removal on the poisons, However...It's got such a low cooldown that it will be reapplied on you fairly quickly. If you don't cleanse it, it runs it's course and ruins your healing, if you do.. you're cleaning something i'll apply on you in under 15 seconds anyway.

Quote

A 3s chill increases enemy abilities on Cooldown recharge time by 2s.
Weakness is worse against higher dps enemies (since they crit more).
They are good, but not enough to be self sufficient for a set.
Not by any means.

increasing cooldowns on abilities by 2 seconds is a dps loss for the person, and can get them killed. never a good thing, the snare is even nastier.

does crit counter glance? i've never actually checked on that?

Quote

Critical hits do not display the glancing text if the blow was glancing.
That's the only thing i could find on it, will have to test that out if possible.

Quote

Sword is good for catching people, turn around and hornet's sting ;)
Monarchs leap right after if you screw up and aim it badly.

I use that to run away some times, the classes that can run from you though generally won't be caught by this (Mesmer's, guardians, thieves)

Quote

You use the dagger evade for the evade mainly not the poison, the poison is just a possible extra if the situation allows it.  Axe having splitblade means that it will be close to melee range at times so a fair amount of time those things do line up.
I run shortbow axe-dagger so you don't necessarily have to swap weapons after splitblade, its still pretty possible in the majority of situations to manage with that set, and with a 10s weapon swap CD that is pretty important.

Dagger Evade is always good to use if they're next to the target, because most likely, they're trying to hit you...Splitblade i use close to the target before weapon swapping, so that's why it's last in my chain.

Quote

Long duration immobilizes are pretty much all dodgeable.  Even if you can't, protect me is a solid answer to it or at worse weapon swapping for that second evade... they aren't that common, over 1s immobilizes that I can't dodge...

Protect me waste a utility slot and kills my pet, so no.. don't like that ability.

Both Thieves/Warriors have 1+ second immobilizes that can kill you

Quote

I hate the word 'chain'... especially when it comes to condition dmg...
You do not blow everything on CD in a strict order... pretty much ever...
For the best of the condition dmg, in the most general combo its spike trap -> geomancy sigil swap -> splitblade -> crippling talon but I next to never do that.  I spike trap -> splitblade allll the time, or pet knockdown -> splitblade but rarely do I stack more than 1 other abilities condition dmg with it.
Rarely does an enemy worth fighting have no cleansing.
Rarely do you have all your CDs up against an enemy who blew their cleansing and any way to stop a chain of attacks.
You are just setting yourself up to flounder by blowing all of those abilities in a row.
You seem to love the idea of it though so I'll let it die, I don't feel like raging about the words 'you should blow crippling talon on CD' right now...
Whatever works for you...

Sword/Dagger with axe/torch has insanely low cooldowns, in fact you're pretty much able to chain them together, the only thing that slows you down is weapon swap.

Quote

Oh and a tier 1 trait in skirmishing gives better vigor than the 'on bird swap' one, without the pet requirement.
The cripple on spider is nifty, I like the 2s knockdowns and aoe fear/imob a bit more.
Especially if your spec has a few chills/cripples on it already to keep enemies in the knockdown-leap range.

Ehh, one is 5 seconds of vigor when i'm critted on a 15 second cooldown

the other is 5 seconds of vigor when i pet swap (on a 15 second timer) I'm not going to be always critted when i need vigor... I will be able to pet swap when i need to.

#33 Granfala

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 03:41 PM

Question on gear and healing.  I can't really seem to find any info on +healing in regards to what I'm looking for.  At the moment, I'm running all Reyna's for Vit, Heal, and Condition dmg.  How much of a difference would swapping to Carrion armor bring?  I thought the +healing on Reyna's would help with regens.  Is this incorrect?  Or is the healing stat just wasting space as the benefit is negligible?

It's quite an expensive change (for me) to swap over to a full set of Carrion just to test things out.  If the +healing does in fact help, I will just stick with Reyna's.

Oh, this is for WvW, not sPvP.

Edited by Granfala, 01 December 2012 - 03:41 PM.


#34 Xsorus

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 05:32 PM

View PostGranfala, on 01 December 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Question on gear and healing.  I can't really seem to find any info on +healing in regards to what I'm looking for.  At the moment, I'm running all Reyna's for Vit, Heal, and Condition dmg.  How much of a difference would swapping to Carrion armor bring?  I thought the +healing on Reyna's would help with regens.  Is this incorrect?  Or is the healing stat just wasting space as the benefit is negligible?

It's quite an expensive change (for me) to swap over to a full set of Carrion just to test things out.  If the +healing does in fact help, I will just stick with Reyna's.

Oh, this is for WvW, not sPvP.

The + healing will work on Regen, and Signet of the Wild + which heal you choose

It won't work on Natural Healing, that's your pets healing right there.

If you're not going for natural healing though, don't try a regen build, stick with skirmishing and carrion.

#35 Granfala

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:09 PM

View PostXsorus, on 01 December 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

The + healing will work on Regen, and Signet of the Wild + which heal you choose

It won't work on Natural Healing, that's your pets healing right there.

If you're not going for natural healing though, don't try a regen build, stick with skirmishing and carrion.

That's what I was hoping/figured.  I'll keep in my Reyna's....when I play the RNG.  Have resorted to playing Thief lately due extensive zergging.

#36 Garethh

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 07:15 PM

Sorry I have to be blunt because you are quoting my posts but not actually addressing what they are saying... just running off on slightly related tangents...
Spoiler

Edited by Garethh, 02 December 2012 - 07:57 PM.


#37 Garethh

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 07:33 PM

View PostXsorus, on 01 December 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

The + healing will work on Regen, and Signet of the Wild + which heal you choose

It won't work on Natural Healing, that's your pets healing right there.

If you're not going for natural healing though, don't try a regen build, stick with skirmishing and carrion.
Natural healing is one of the worst tier 3 traits out there.
The healing on it scales outright terribly with heal power and has bad base healing.  It heals for 170~ health every 3s after stacking +healing... a tier 3 trait for an extra 1k life every 20s is not close to worthwhile.

+healing doesn't tend to be worthwhile because rangers are mediocre bunkers.
They do pretty well in 1v1s decent in 1v2s, but any more and they are outright *ed.
That and the class is bad at working with others.
Unless you can get some serious work out of a bird pet, I wouldn't suggest it in the slightest.

Edited by Garethh, 02 December 2012 - 07:44 PM.


#38 Xsorus

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 09:31 PM

View PostGarethh, on 02 December 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

Natural healing is one of the worst tier 3 traits out there.
The healing on it scales outright terribly with heal power and has bad base healing.  It heals for 170~ health every 3s after stacking +healing... a tier 3 trait for an extra 1k life every 20s is not close to worthwhile.

+healing doesn't tend to be worthwhile because rangers are mediocre bunkers.
They do pretty well in 1v1s decent in 1v2s, but any more and they are outright *ed.
That and the class is bad at working with others.
Unless you can get some serious work out of a bird pet, I wouldn't suggest it in the slightest.

Natural healing I don't think is effected by your + Healing Power, pretty sure when I tested it a while back it's only the actual pets healing power that has any effect on it, You can increase it to 181 in combat with Compassion Talent but that's about it.

It doesn't matter to much how you spec, anything past 2 people on ya is usually death (unless they're bad) simply because someone in that group is going to be able to lock you down at some point..Engineer's are a prime example of a class that will absolutely screw me over if i'm fighting someone else.

#39 Xsorus

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 09:46 PM

View PostGarethh, on 02 December 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

Sorry I have to be blunt because you are quoting my posts but not actually addressing what they are saying... just running off on slightly related tangents...
Spoiler

*grin*

1. Cleansing becomes hard the more stacks of conditions you have on yourself (unless of course you can just flat out remove all conditions off yourself every single time) So overwhelming someone with condition stacks is generally how I do it, If you want to separate your poison stacks that's up to you, I generally prefer having the double evades but whatever floats your boat.

2. I just quoted what the wiki said, I don't know if it's correct, you'd have to actually test it to see.

3. i don't care how amazing you think the leap, it's not catching a Thief, and probably a mesmer, You could probably catch the Guardian though, They're basically relying on perma swiftness

4. I can usually dodge quite a bit already, course that's how my build works, I'm usually being forced into the think of things and not getting hit is always a plus.

5. I use birds, any serious burst in this game will flat out kill birds if you're using protect me. Even Dogs will go down if you're dealing with someone who's not a complete baddie. I mean I can understand the use of Protect me, but personally I can't fit into in my build, and it'd probably be on my low use if I was to replace something.

6. If i'm switched over to Axe/Torch i'm generally moving away from the guy and dodging when I move in.. Having the dodges on separate weapons doesn't help me, Maybe you enjoy it, me I personally don't.

7. You're avoiding the point that very few classes in this game can constantly remove conditions over and over again, and other then ranger most can't get rid of every condition on them without blowing a major cooldown. Stretching out condition drops just plays into classes that can remove the constantly over time.

8. Clearly I have no knowledge how to play the class :rolleyes:

#40 Garethh

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:33 PM

View PostXsorus, on 02 December 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

1. Cleansing...
Those two don't correlate...
Unless you think applying a poison, then another poison counts as 2 conditions? So if someone removes 1 condition they only remove 1 of the poisons, not both??
Which just isn't true.

Short of that reasoning... I can't really see how you can think having 2 longish duration poisons on one weapon set is better at making sure the condition stays up when they heal than one on each...

The main challenges for a condition spec are people that can remove or avoid your conditions, no?
So preparing for that is just common sense.
If you have poisoned someone for 16s and they have no cleanse to deal with it, it doesn't matter whether the poisons are on the same set or not... but with the main point of the condition to be to inhibit healing and with cleansing/evading exc. added in... so if they do cleanse that large duration poison before healing, or the situation ends  with your other weapon set out yet you need to apply poison... you just lost your main use of the condition.

Its the same idea with axe and torch.  Those are the 2 best condition applying weapons on your spec.
Having them all in one weapon set, a set with little defense, means that you more than not have to blow every CD on it and then weapon swap out of it as fast as possible, inviting one cleanse to ruin it all...
Splitting it up with sword/torch axe/dagger gives a better spread of condition dmg and survivability, more consistent but less counterable by one well timed cleanse...


View PostXsorus, on 02 December 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

3. i don't care how amazing you think the leap, it's not catching a Thief, and probably a mesmer, You could probably catch the Guardian though, They're basically relying on perma swiftness
It works extremely well against mesmers.
2 gap closers every 8s is will get you in melee a fair deal against anyone, if played well.

A thief with full initiative and a finger hovering over disabling shot is an utter pain for any melee to catch.

Guardians don't kite.
Guardians don't have permanent swiftness.
I think you are thinking of engineers.

I run canines and rarely have a pet die on me short of being caught with my pants down by a spike dps, then I call the majority of their spike for my pet and 1 utility a pretty fair trade.
Unless you are running around into 3v3s or larger or not bothering to command/swap your pet well, pets don't die all that easily and are pretty much never focused.

Anyways.
The main point I made was that having axe/torch on a set means it has next to no survivability, that is true, quite obviously.
If you think having one set with all the on weapon evades works better and the other left to dry or trying to kite with just a 3s chill, 45+s CD utilities and whatever your pet decides to throw your way... hey, its your call, but that just isn't all that effective.  If you play the hornet's sting well and crippling talon right before weapon swap, you can manage, but those abilities serve a bit more of a purpose than just making your offset's kiting work, at least in my eyes.

You can say "I'm generally moving away from the guy" but that doesn't mean the guy isn't going to be "generally moving to you"... which comes into the question of "what are you doing to make that distance" and axe/torch's answer is "pretty much nothing".  If you have the tools in your pet, utilities and from sword/dagger right before pet swapping to pull it off.. congrats, just odds say those tools could be used better.

More readily available fire shield tends to be better than a more easily done one or 2 combo's threw a fire field.

Edited by Garethh, 03 December 2012 - 12:28 AM.


#41 Garethh

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:41 PM

View PostXsorus, on 02 December 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

Natural healing I don't think is effected by your + Healing Power...
I'm pretty sure it does.

View PostXsorus, on 02 December 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

It doesn't matter to much how you spec, anything past 2 people on ya is usually death (unless they're bad) simply because someone in that group is going to be able to lock you down at some point..Engineer's are a prime example of a class that will absolutely screw me over if i'm fighting someone else.
Some specs, bunker ele's namely, are great at holding off 2~ people... guardians, necro's and mesmers are good at it... ranger's are pretty mediocre at it.
To boot rangers give little to the people coming to help pick off those guys.

When it comes to 1v1s, bunker rangers are really solid.. but yeah... I wouldn't call that making it worthwhile.

Edited by Garethh, 02 December 2012 - 11:43 PM.


#42 Xsorus

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:05 AM

View PostGarethh, on 02 December 2012 - 11:33 PM, said:

Those two don't correlate...
Unless you think applying a poison, then another poison counts as 2 conditions? So if someone removes 1 condition they only remove 1 of the poisons, not both??
Which just isn't true.

Short of that reasoning... I can't really see how you can think having 2 longish duration poisons on one weapon set is better at making sure the condition stays up when they heal than one on each...

The main challenges for a condition spec are people that can remove or avoid your conditions, no?
So preparing for that is just common sense.
If you have poisoned someone for 16s and they have no cleanse to deal with it, it doesn't matter whether the poisons are on the same set or not... but with the main point of the condition to be to inhibit healing and with cleansing/evading exc. added in... so if they do cleanse that large duration poison before healing, or the situation ends  with your other weapon set out yet you need to apply poison... you just lost your main use of the condition.

Its the same idea with axe and torch.  Those are the 2 best condition applying weapons on your spec.
Having them all in one weapon set, a set with little defense, means that you more than not have to blow every CD on it and then weapon swap out of it as fast as possible, inviting one cleanse to ruin it all...
Splitting it up with sword/torch axe/dagger gives a better spread of condition dmg and survivability, more consistent but less counterable by one well timed cleanse...



It works extremely well against mesmers.
2 gap closers every 8s is will get you in melee a fair deal against anyone, if played well.

A thief with full initiative and a finger hovering over disabling shot is an utter pain for any melee to catch.

Guardians don't kite.
Guardians don't have permanent swiftness.
I think you are thinking of engineers.

I run canines and rarely have a pet die on me short of being caught with my pants down by a spike dps, then I call the majority of their spike for my pet and 1 utility a pretty fair trade.
Unless you are running around into 3v3s or larger or not bothering to command/swap your pet well, pets don't die all that easily and are pretty much never focused.

Anyways.
The main point I made was that having axe/torch on a set means it has next to no survivability, that is true, quite obviously.
If you think having one set with all the on weapon evades works better and the other left to dry or trying to kite with just a 3s chill, 45+s CD utilities and whatever your pet decides to throw your way... hey, its your call, but that just isn't all that effective.  If you play the hornet's sting well and crippling talon right before weapon swap, you can manage, but those abilities serve a bit more of a purpose than just making your offset's kiting work, at least in my eyes.

You can say "I'm generally moving away from the guy" but that doesn't mean the guy isn't going to be "generally moving to you"... which comes into the question of "what are you doing to make that distance" and axe/torch's answer is "pretty much nothing".  If you have the tools in your pet, utilities and from sword/dagger right before pet swapping to pull it off.. congrats, just odds say those tools could be used better.

More readily available fire shield tends to be better than a more easily done one or 2 combo's threw a fire field.

1. Nah, don't mean it separates them, I mean if you're dumping Conditions on top of people very quickly Their condition removals might not hit the poison, If they blow their full removal cooldown that's fine, Our conditions have very short cooldowns so i'm not super worried about it, It basically comes down to preferring double evade on one weapon set that i'll be primary in melee range on, While the other is more of a mid range weapon as i'm moving out. It's up to you which you prefer, I've tried the setup you suggest and simply didn't care for it, You may get more bang for the buck out of it though.

2. You can get perma swiftness on Guardian, or you could at least, They might of changed it here recently..

3. You play primarily SPvP I believe, I play WvW, the burst I experience is much greater. Against most baddies your pet won't die, against some actual burst toons, it'll die almost instantly if you're not careful.

4. Distance creators include Lightning Reflex or the Evade back from Sword before going Axe/Torch, Or just dodging period... You can see me do it in one video, think it might be the second one.

View PostGarethh, on 02 December 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure it does.


Some specs, bunker ele's namely, are great at holding off 2~ people... guardians, necro's and mesmers are good at it... ranger's are pretty mediocre at it.
To boot rangers give little to the people coming to help pick off those guys.

When it comes to 1v1s, bunker rangers are really solid.. but yeah... I wouldn't call that making it worthwhile.

1. Signet of the Wild is effected by our Healing Power, Natural Healing is the Pets. Running both is around 300HP or so, little over.

2. Bunker rangers are solid 1v1, if I just want to hold people off, in a 2v1 I can do alright, unless of course it's something like an Engineer with net gun, that can screw me....I wouldn't really take a bunker ranger though if I was doing SPvP when you have Ele's and Guardians which already fill that role much better.




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