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So, what's the next best thing?


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#1 Thyya

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:49 PM

I do wvw 90% of my gw2 time. Due to heavy workload IRL, I only have a few hours a day to myself, so, cannot realistically grind for Ascended pieces. But like many people here, it will always be a thorn on my side wondering if the other side has better gear than I do (especially in the future). Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on ...

So, I'm considering moving on. What's the next best thing that adopted horizontal progression methodology? Perhaps something similar to gw1 with gw2/Rift graphics. Allow me to pick it up again once I'm back from a trip. Don't have to freeze the game for me, but forgiving enough and let me catch up in a considerably short time. PlanetSide2? Darkfall:UW?

I just want some suggestions so I can do some homework more efficiently. Thanks all =]

#2 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:50 PM

How about some real pvp?

#3 UNTYPABLExNAME

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:00 PM

Try playing Guild Wars 1.
Meets your stated requirements.

#4 Thyya

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:06 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 27 November 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

How about some real pvp?

You mean sPvP? yeah sure. But that kinda cut you off from the rest of the world. I like wvw more than sPvP because there are more factors to consider there, 3-way fights, supplies, etc.

View PostUNTYPABLExNAME, on 27 November 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

Try playing Guild Wars 1.
Meets your stated requirements.

yeah, I tried that. But graphics are not.. that impressive.

#5 Zhahz

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:07 PM

It's unlikely you'll find such a thing in an MMORPG.  Maybe in MMO lite like PS2.  MMORPGs are usually about progression with a heavy emphasis on gear (and I guess for good reason since it's what hooks most of us and is a staple of RPGs before there were cRPGs and MMORPGs).  MMORPGs continually evolve, they don't sit still waiting for latecomers to join an even field.

ANet claimed they would be different and sold a lot of us on that idea then they shifted gears scant months after release (not exactly sure when they added stats to legendaries after saying they would differ in appearances only but that was the start).

Plus, if you are mostly into PvP why would you play an MMORPG to begin with?  MMORPGs are always going to be mostly about PvE with PvP being an activity within the whole.  I never have really understood why competitive PvPers want to force the issue of PvPing within PvE-centric games like RPGs.

If you are are purely PvP player why not play games that are PvP-centric, like LoL, PS2, BF2, online FPS.  It makes no sense to me.  It's like you want all the loot and RPG elements for reasons I can't possibly fathom to PvP with when PvP is PvP with or without that and is much more pure and competitive when there's the more level playing field you can find in more PvP-centric games.  MMORPG PvP is so unlikely to ever be balanced or fair due to class imbalances that must exist in class-based systems, gear, bugs, builds, fotm balance, etc.

I guess going back to WoW I have felt that some wannabe PvPers actually do not want a level playing field.  They want some gear, build, class advantage that makes winning easier.  They don't actually want competition.  They want ez-mode PvP-style.  Seems odd but I guess that's the appeal of MMORPG PvP - the potential to easily own people via gear and stuff.

It looked like PvP in GW2 was going to be less about gear, with an easily reached gear cap, and more about how you PvPed...but that's already getting tossed aside as ANet flounders.

#6 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:08 PM

The reason why we continue bitching here is because there really isn't a second best thing in action RPGs with horizontal progression.
GW is all there was.

EDIT:
GW1 is dead. Let's not pretend otherwise.

Edited by Protoss, 27 November 2012 - 05:12 PM.


#7 Zhahz

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:08 PM

View PostThyya, on 27 November 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

yeah, I tried that. But graphics are not.. that impressive.

Quality of graphics is more important than quality of PvP for someone who PvP's 90% of their time?

#8 CondasEgera

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:11 PM

Ascended gear will not impact your gameplay in really any way in its current state. Yes you get more stats, but they are way too few to make an impact. Especially in WvW. Also I am starting to see quotes that ascended gear will be acquirable through other means than FotM. Check for the other thread in Tyrian Assembly with the quotes (title says something like "anet admits mistakes" or something), sounds like they will be available through many aspects of the game. I expect WvW to be one of them at some point, so don't be too hasty to run somewhere else until we get more information.

#9 raspberry jam

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:18 PM

Dark Souls has been released for PC.

#10 TGIFrisbie

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:18 PM

To the OP, I don't think horizontal progression is in any game as it is just to lazy and cost effective to throw out bigger numbers on gear than it is to develope interesting and challenging content that isn't just a factor jump.

Typical game developer:  Let's just give the boss a crapload of health and damage output!  that should up the challenge!

#11 Brizna

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:20 PM

Yeah, GW1 is your one and only game for you. Oddly except for the no holly trinity thing of which I'm not exactly fan myself I thinks that's the game that closest stays to Anet's manifesto, this one seams more llike GWoW2 catering for neither audience.

#12 MazingerZ

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:23 PM

View PostZhahz, on 27 November 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

It's unlikely you'll find such a thing in an MMORPG.  Maybe in MMO lite like PS2.  MMORPGs are usually about progression with a heavy emphasis on gear (and I guess for good reason since it's what hooks most of us and is a staple of RPGs before there were cRPGs and MMORPGs).  MMORPGs continually evolve, they don't sit still waiting for latecomers to join an even field.

ANet claimed they would be different and sold a lot of us on that idea then they shifted gears scant months after release (not exactly sure when they added stats to legendaries after saying they would differ in appearances only but that was the start).

Plus, if you are mostly into PvP why would you play an MMORPG to begin with?  MMORPGs are always going to be mostly about PvE with PvP being an activity within the whole.  I never have really understood why competitive PvPers want to force the issue of PvPing within PvE-centric games like RPGs.

If you are are purely PvP player why not play games that are PvP-centric, like LoL, PS2, BF2, online FPS.  It makes no sense to me.  It's like you want all the loot and RPG elements for reasons I can't possibly fathom to PvP with when PvP is PvP with or without that and is much more pure and competitive when there's the more level playing field you can find in more PvP-centric games.  MMORPG PvP is so unlikely to ever be balanced or fair due to class imbalances that must exist in class-based systems, gear, bugs, builds, fotm balance, etc.

I guess going back to WoW I have felt that some wannabe PvPers actually do not want a level playing field.  They want some gear, build, class advantage that makes winning easier.  They don't actually want competition.  They want ez-mode PvP-style.  Seems odd but I guess that's the appeal of MMORPG PvP - the potential to easily own people via gear and stuff.

It looked like PvP in GW2 was going to be less about gear, with an easily reached gear cap, and more about how you PvPed...but that's already getting tossed aside as ANet flounders.

The only reason I look to MMOs for PvP is due to the depth of class design that in theory goes into them.  Multiple abilities, a variety of 'builds' you can use, and gear designed to allow you craft how you want and in theory feel valuable... and not to mention visual customizations.  I never get that feeling in LOL (never mind that I'm not  a fan of tower defense).

I think the best game I ever enjoyed with class-based PvP was Transformers.   It had classes, customization of characters and some melee aspects to it.  Really, I just enjoy the concept of beating someone with a stick as opposed to trying to shoot them to death.  I don't know why.
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#13 Mastruq

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:25 PM

I played alot of Planetside 2 during the last week, I'd recommend trying that out of you like fps shooters in general. Not so much if you come from the rpg side of things. The scope of the game beyond shooting the other side was very confusing early on but once you get a grip of what is going on around you and why, it's a great game. I havent quit GW2 but it certainly reduced my playtime (not because of ascendeds, I'D actually like a well planned out vertical progression. I just question how well planned out Arenanet is, they seem to be shooting from the hip so to speak).

Edit: PS2 isnt "mmo lite" at all, you'll be hard pressed to find something that is more "mmo" besides maybe EVE Online... I think you mean "rpg lite" which it isnt at all obviously, its a fps shooter. Speaking of EVE Online, that'd be another recommendation but it has a sub.

Edited by Mastruq, 27 November 2012 - 05:27 PM.


#14 DuskWolf

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:26 PM

It's not a PvP game, but it's one I love: Champions Online.

Unlike Guild Wars 2, it has a true power plateau which has never shifted. It does have some cash store stuff, but it's purely cosmetic stuff that you can ignore. It's just a really fun game to play, and there's a lot of content to fool around with too once you hit the level cap. One of my favourite things about the game is that you can customise your own nemesis, you can customise them as you want. And there's one 5-man dungeon at the end of the game where you and four other people can confront a super-group of their nemeses combined.

Also coming up? Marvel Heroes looks quite nice. It's more of a Guild Wars 1-style of game, but also focusing around silly, superheroic shenanigans. So there's that. I'm also very, very fond of Mass Effect 3's multi-player, which is something you can play a few matches of, either with a group of three friends, a group of random folk, or on your own if you're really good. That's not too time consuming.

Either way, I hope you find what you're looking for. And I do empathise. I figured out that GW2 isn't for me, either.

#15 Sephirox507

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:27 PM

View PostThyya, on 27 November 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

I do wvw 90% of my gw2 time. Due to heavy workload IRL, I only have a few hours a day to myself, so, cannot realistically grind for Ascended pieces. But like many people here, it will always be a thorn on my side wondering if the other side has better gear than I do (especially in the future). Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on ...

So, I'm considering moving on. What's the next best thing that adopted horizontal progression methodology? Perhaps something similar to gw1 with gw2/Rift graphics. Allow me to pick it up again once I'm back from a trip. Don't have to freeze the game for me, but forgiving enough and let me catch up in a considerably short time. PlanetSide2? Darkfall:UW?

I just want some suggestions so I can do some homework more efficiently. Thanks all =]

So you are leaving the game because of a feature that is not out or wont be coming anytime soon and you are conceptualizing how it will be acquire?

For someone who does WvW 90% of the Time , I find it amazing you still think is about gear...Even if you had the best gea,r legendary gear at some point, you will be kill in seconds.

Edited by Sephirox507, 27 November 2012 - 05:28 PM.


#16 Thyya

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:41 PM

View PostZhahz, on 27 November 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

It's unlikely you'll find such a thing in an MMORPG.  Maybe in MMO lite like PS2.  MMORPGs are usually about progression with a heavy emphasis on gear (and I guess for good reason since it's what hooks most of us and is a staple of RPGs before there were cRPGs and MMORPGs).  MMORPGs continually evolve, they don't sit still waiting for latecomers to join an even field.

ANet claimed they would be different and sold a lot of us on that idea then they shifted gears scant months after release (not exactly sure when they added stats to legendaries after saying they would differ in appearances only but that was the start).

Plus, if you are mostly into PvP why would you play an MMORPG to begin with?  MMORPGs are always going to be mostly about PvE with PvP being an activity within the whole.  I never have really understood why competitive PvPers want to force the issue of PvPing within PvE-centric games like RPGs.

If you are are purely PvP player why not play games that are PvP-centric, like LoL, PS2, BF2, online FPS.  It makes no sense to me.  It's like you want all the loot and RPG elements for reasons I can't possibly fathom to PvP with when PvP is PvP with or without that and is much more pure and competitive when there's the more level playing field you can find in more PvP-centric games.  MMORPG PvP is so unlikely to ever be balanced or fair due to class imbalances that must exist in class-based systems, gear, bugs, builds, fotm balance, etc.

I guess going back to WoW I have felt that some wannabe PvPers actually do not want a level playing field.  They want some gear, build, class advantage that makes winning easier.  They don't actually want competition.  They want ez-mode PvP-style.  Seems odd but I guess that's the appeal of MMORPG PvP - the potential to easily own people via gear and stuff.

It looked like PvP in GW2 was going to be less about gear, with an easily reached gear cap, and more about how you PvPed...but that's already getting tossed aside as ANet flounders.

I can't speak for others, but personally, I like this theme. I played AD&D, UO, EQ, etc. and usually ranged/bow type char. And I like playing with other players because it's more unpredictable than AI.

View PostZhahz, on 27 November 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

Quality of graphics is more important than quality of PvP for someone who PvP's 90% of their time?

Not more important, but I like cool effects and nice looking armor?

View PostCondasEgera, on 27 November 2012 - 05:11 PM, said:

Ascended gear will not impact your gameplay in really any way in its current state. Yes you get more stats, but they are way too few to make an impact. Especially in WvW. Also I am starting to see quotes that ascended gear will be acquirable through other means than FotM. Check for the other thread in Tyrian Assembly with the quotes (title says something like "anet admits mistakes" or something), sounds like they will be available through many aspects of the game. I expect WvW to be one of them at some point, so don't be too hasty to run somewhere else until we get more information.

Sure, yeah I'll keep my options opened. Hopefully it's not 500k for one piece.

View Postraspberry jam, on 27 November 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

Dark Souls has been released for PC.

Thank you, I'll dig into that =]

View PostMastruq, on 27 November 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

I played alot of Planetside 2 during the last week, I'd recommend trying that out of you like fps shooters in general. Not so much if you come from the rpg side of things. The scope of the game beyond shooting the other side was very confusing early on but once you get a grip of what is going on around you and why, it's a great game. I havent quit GW2 but it certainly reduced my playtime (not because of ascendeds, I'D actually like a well planned out vertical progression. I just question how well planned out Arenanet is, they seem to be shooting from the hip so to speak).

Edit: PS2 isnt "mmo lite" at all, you'll be hard pressed to find something that is more "mmo" besides maybe EVE Online... I think you mean "rpg lite" which it isnt at all obviously, its a fps shooter. Speaking of EVE Online, that'd be another recommendation but it has a sub.

How big of a grind is PS2? I heard it's minimal, but what's "minimal"? like exotic minimal or ascended minimal?

#17 Dasryn

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:48 PM

View PostProtoss, on 27 November 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

The reason why we continue bitching here is because there really isn't a second best thing in action RPGs with horizontal progression.
GW is all there was.

this.  people know that GW2 is the only game out there right now that offers a AAA mmorpg budget for no sub.  its got the best graphics, best combat, best bang for your buck.  so people want to stay because they dont want to go back to whatever aging pile of junk they were playing, but they want the familiarity of said aging pile of junk.

so they stay.  they linger.  they lurk.  they bitch.

my suggestion to you OP?  sure you dont have a lot of time to play, so play at your own pace and enjoy the wonderful personal story and DEs and explore the beautiful vistas.  take your time and accept this game for what it is and just have fun with GW2, because you arent going to find this anywhere else.

#18 Thyya

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:50 PM

View PostDuskWolf, on 27 November 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

It's not a PvP game, but it's one I love: Champions Online.

Unlike Guild Wars 2, it has a true power plateau which has never shifted. It does have some cash store stuff, but it's purely cosmetic stuff that you can ignore. It's just a really fun game to play, and there's a lot of content to fool around with too once you hit the level cap. One of my favourite things about the game is that you can customise your own nemesis, you can customise them as you want. And there's one 5-man dungeon at the end of the game where you and four other people can confront a super-group of their nemeses combined.

Also coming up? Marvel Heroes looks quite nice. It's more of a Guild Wars 1-style of game, but also focusing around silly, superheroic shenanigans. So there's that. I'm also very, very fond of Mass Effect 3's multi-player, which is something you can play a few matches of, either with a group of three friends, a group of random folk, or on your own if you're really good. That's not too time consuming.

Either way, I hope you find what you're looking for. And I do empathise. I figured out that GW2 isn't for me, either.

Thanks. is it the same as Marvel Super Hero Squad Online? the web-based one?

#19 Dasryn

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:01 PM

View PostDuskWolf, on 27 November 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

I figured out that GW2 isn't for me, either.

and yet. . . you still post substantially on the GW2 forums. . .

i mean, i really dont understand.  you are just. . . bitter about it too.

#20 TGIFrisbie

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:07 PM

You can be hungry and not like the food on the plate.  Rolling the peas round in the mashed potatoes is at least something to do while you consider what you really want to eat.

No one is posting on these forums to simply piss and moan, they typically feel dropped into a game that is unsatisfying and waiting around for something that fills their need.  It doesn't mean they don't log in and roll those peas around.

#21 Thyya

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:07 PM

View PostSephirox507, on 27 November 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

So you are leaving the game because of a feature that is not out or wont be coming anytime soon and you are conceptualizing how it will be acquire?

For someone who does WvW 90% of the Time , I find it amazing you still think is about gear...Even if you had the best gea,r legendary gear at some point, you will be kill in seconds.

I don't always run with big zerg, sometimes it's 3v3 sometimes it's 1v1 (mostly with a thief). And I think about gear because there are  times that both opponent and I were in downed state and we were throwing rocks at each other, so that tiny percentage counts at that point. There's already a big gap between upscaled 80 and full-exo 80, I can't imagine upscaled 80 vs full-ascended 80. Anyway, not here to complain, not here to predict the future. Just looking for the best possible option to spend my time.

#22 Nephele

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:11 PM

http://firefallthegame.com/

#23 Thyya

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:20 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 27 November 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

Dark Souls has been released for PC.

According to wiki, it's a 1v1 game when in online mode, yes?

#24 SirGamesalot

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:26 PM

I was hoping guild wars 2 would be that game, but clearly not... I'm w8ing for either elder scrolls online, or arenanet fixing the game.

#25 Korlic

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:35 PM

Seriously.... grind for ascended items? Do a FotM run once or twice a day... get ascended items. If you did 2 runs a day starting at lvl 1 in 2 weeks without 'grinding' and taking a little over an hour a day you will probably get atleast 1 ascended ring.

#26 Khlaw

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:44 PM

Assuming there are no other reasons you want to leave GW2 and the effort of getting ascended gear is not worth your while, is "wondering if the other side has better gear than I do" really enough to make you leave?  I could see leaving if you come to an absolute certainty that you can no longer be competitive because if a gear deficiency, but it seems over-reactive to quit because you think there is a chance that the guy who just beat you might possibly have been able to do so because maybe he has better gear.

Edit: oh, and ANET has already said they plan to add other ways of obtaining ascended gear, including wvwvw.

Edited by Khlaw, 27 November 2012 - 06:45 PM.


#27 DuskWolf

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:51 PM

Guys, he's asking for alternatives. He's not asking to be attacked due to his choice to leave. Stop being so desperate. Even the GW2 faithful should agree with me, here. Just wish him the best of luck and move on. The game isn't for him.

Edited by DuskWolf, 27 November 2012 - 06:51 PM.


#28 funkybudda

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:54 PM

View PostKhlaw, on 27 November 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

Assuming there are no other reasons you want to leave GW2 and the effort of getting ascended gear is not worth your while, is "wondering if the other side has better gear than I do" really enough to make you leave?  I could see leaving if you come to an absolute certainty that you can no longer be competitive because if a gear deficiency, but it seems over-reactive to quit because you think there is a chance that the guy who just beat you might possibly have been able to do so because maybe he has better gear.

Edit: oh, and ANET has already said they plan to add other ways of obtaining ascended gear, including wvwvw.

Given how ANet chose to cater and pamper the PvE crowd over the PvP / WvW players, I will believe it when it happens, which from my current perspective is all bs. Besides, who knows how the gears coming from WvW will compare to the PvE, perhaps less options, less attractive, etc.

#29 DuskWolf

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:58 PM

View PostRickter, on 27 November 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

and yet. . . you still post substantially on the GW2 forums. . .

i mean, i really dont understand.  you are just. . . bitter about it too.
Yep! Like I said, the GW2 fanbase intrigues me. I'm not a fetishist, I can see beyond the game. I've an armchair interest in psychology and I'm morbidly fascinated by the fans and the debates that happen here. The debates are interesting even if I'm not interested in the game. If you could see past your own rose-tinted glasses, you might understand that.

Try to be less limited and see things from my point of view. Take GW2 out of the equation and you still have the people that play or don't. This is a good resource for any developers who want to measure the reaction to vertical progression, it's also a good way to try to understand how we feel about it. It's even a good social experiment, to watch people defend ArenaNet despite having said in the AMA that their intent was to screw people over, and that their intent moving on is to continue to screw people over.

It's interesting. I can't help it. And I'm not 'bitching,' I'm debating the value of a game which has vertical progression with one that does not. And when the illusion falls away, I'm helping to suggest alternatives that people could play instead. Just because I don't play GW2, that doesn't mean that I should just disappear and give you the beautiful, walled garden community that you desire. If you want that, you can try the official forums.

My life isn't one, single game. I can see past the game to the issues that involve the game. GW2 has just become an exemplary platform for those issues, being a game which abandoned horizontal progression in favour of heavy grind and vertical progression.

And largely? I'm just amused.

But if another person wants to leave and move on, should we keep them here? Should we try to use peer pressure and social engineering to convince them that they need to keep playing? Don't you think that's kind of... amazingly desperate? Are you that desperate? Who are you trying to convince when you do that? Them, or you? That's the question, isn't it. That is the question.

If you weren't trying to convince yourself, then why wouldn't you just let them leave? If you were confident in your game being so fun, you wouldn't need to worry about the odd person who leaves.

#30 Sinful01

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:22 PM

View PostRickter, on 27 November 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

this.  people know that GW2 is the only game out there right now that offers a AAA mmorpg budget for no sub.  its got the best graphics, best combat, best bang for your buck.  so people want to stay because they dont want to go back to whatever aging pile of junk they were playing, but they want the familiarity of said aging pile of junk.

... or they piss and moan that GW2 doesn't have the features (progression; grind) of whatever aging pile of junk they came from, and the dev's listen and implement it!




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