149 replies to this topic

[Naevius]

The big problem I have with a level cap increase is that it is another blow to those of us who like to develop a bunch of alt characters.

TBH, I think raising the level cap is problematic in any case:

WvWvW effect? sPvP effect? Legendaries obsolete? Everyone's armor obsolete? More crafting levels with even more expensive materials?

The list of issues is huge - I honestly don't think the game is currently designed for a level cap increase.

[Jobuu]

Trei, on 30 November 2012 - 04:37 AM, said:

That's only part of its function.

How would you distribute skill points? Trait points? Stat points?
Would it be efficient to do it with stories and quests?

................

By the time you are ready and able to tackle that level 80 equivalent dungeon in this alternate no-level GW2,  I would in all likelihood be level 80 already in current GW2 anyway.

Yes it's still "leveling" in some way however you avoid the issue of exponentially increasing stats, dmg, etc... like WOW's armor with +250 soon +500 str, end, etc... you hit for 344,597,923 damage !

Meridian 59 was IMO a good way of dealing with no levels. Killing stuff gave you skill ups as it's own percentage and more HP slowly over time getting "tougher"

These big numbers in games now is IMO what's causing the imbalance issues.

[Bloggi]

Trei, on 30 November 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

snip

That was very well explained. I definitely see your point.

[Trei]

n00854180t, on 30 November 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

My problem with extra levels isn't the levels themselves, it's the new gear that will come with them. Why should I spend 200 hours grinding for an upgraded Ascended back piece when they're simply going to obsolete it by making level 90 (or 85 or whatever) Ascended items with better stats?

So that you can use this level 80 ascended back piece you just gotten from now till you get that projected level 90 one.
This back piece is still probably going to be better than any new expansion gear past level 80 for some time, until perhaps after level 85+, hypothetically speaking.
I do not expect there to be level 81 exotics and ascended gear, or even rare.

My buddy's rare lvl 40 pirate gear (vendor at the end of that puzzle with the ghost pirate) was obsolete even before he hit 60, but he got most of them anyway, 9800 karma per piece.
He grinded a little on DEs, saved his karma just for them.
He got them because he absolutely adored their dead pirate gear theme, not the stats.

[omar316]

Trei, on 30 November 2012 - 04:51 AM, said:

No one forces you to play that way.

It is your own compulsion making you want to get that gear as fast as possible, forcing you to do only those things that are most efficient in this particular goal.
What happens to the rest of the game? Anet can't possibly force you to play the rest of the game if you don't want to, but they did provide them.

You.
Chose to be mindlessly farming.

I.
Choose instead to acquire the items I want in my own time, I'll get them when I get them.
Sooner or later I will have that 250 this mat or that gift of whatever.
In the meantime, there is still so much other content for me to do in the game.... what's the rush?

Please oh please do tell me. What the hell is there so fun to do in this game.

There are 3 modes.
PvE.
sPvP.
And open world PvP.

You just struck me out on the PvE side, to grind/play, own time own target. Fine.

sPvP does nothing to progress your PvE/grind from the main game.
Open world, yeah we all know what that entails.

No one is rushing. People need to sit down and think. What is the goal to play this shit. I really don't know what to say.
I mean, are we playing that shitty ass Curiousity on iOS/Android? Gamification. El oh el.

Gamification of a MMORPG. A RPG. Good lord. What next. Pull yourself out of Anet's arse and think about what you just said.
In every game there is a general purpose. What is the purpose we are grinding or trying to reach while wasting/side tracking for the said 250 of those shit.

[Trei]

For the player who goes more for looks than power in a piece of gear, should Anet then stop making more beautiful and cool gear for him in case he gets mad that there are now new sets of gear with aesthetics he loves even more, that he must resume "grinding" for?

Edited by Trei, 01 December 2012 - 02:06 AM.

[MazingerZ]

Trei, on 01 December 2012 - 02:05 AM, said:

For the player who goes more for looks than power in a piece of gear, should Anet then stop making more beautiful and cool gear for him in case he gets mad that there are now new sets of gear with aesthetics he loves even more, that he must resume "grinding" for?

Power is objective.  An increase is an increase is an increase.

Aesthetic gear is totally subjective.  WoW raiding gear, the concept that Judgement was the BEST PALADIN SET EVER and the popularity of transmogrification in WoW is proof of that.

Your argument is invalid.

Edited by MazingerZ, 01 December 2012 - 02:09 AM.

[Trei]

omar316, on 01 December 2012 - 01:41 AM, said:

...In every game there is a general purpose. What is the purpose we are grinding or trying to reach while wasting/side tracking for the said 250 of those shit.

I cannot speak for you, only myself.

My purpose in the game is to try and experience all that the game world can offer, read all the story lines, interact with my friends and strangers I meet along the way.

Not get the highest stat level gear I can possibly get.

Gear power isn't my purpose nor my goal in this game. It is just means to an end.

Much of the world's content has certain soft requirements in stats and stuff, but can be compensated in other ways, like skill.
As long as I have reasonable access to gear that would grant me adequate statistical power to be able to do all those things I mentioned, I really don't need the best gear.

So as for grinding, you are right.
There is no purpose in that, so why do it?

Edited by Trei, 01 December 2012 - 02:24 AM.

[Trei]

MazingerZ, on 01 December 2012 - 02:09 AM, said:

Power is objective.  An increase is an increase is an increase.

Aesthetic gear is totally subjective.  WoW raiding gear, the concept that Judgement was the BEST PALADIN SET EVER and the popularity of transmogrification in WoW is proof of that.

Your argument is invalid.

I do not agree, not entirely.

Power is objective to a certain extent, past which it does not really make a difference as long as one can confidently play skillfully enough.
This extent, to me, is exotic gear.

It is not practical for me to still be using level 5 blue gear in fractals, yes.
It is however not required for me to be in full ascended gear either.
Would you want a noob in full ascended gear or a pro in exotic gear in your group?

No, of course we all want a pro in ascended gear.... but that's not the question .

Edited by Trei, 01 December 2012 - 07:02 PM.

[Dasryn]

Trei, on 01 December 2012 - 02:21 AM, said:

Would you want a noob in full ascended gear or a pro in exotic gear in your group?

No, of course we all want a pro in ascended gear.... but that's not the question .

well see trei, this is one of the gripes.  you must have ascended gear past fractals 10 correct?  for the agony resistance.

people are upset that they introduced higher tiered gear with not only better stats, but a condition resistance that is mandatory after a certain dungeon level.

and just for my entertainment, what about a pro in rares?

[omar316]

Rickter, on 01 December 2012 - 02:28 AM, said:

well see trei, this is one of the gripes.  you must have ascended gear past fractals 10 correct?  for the agony resistance.

people are upset that they introduced higher tiered gear with not only better stats, but a condition resistance that is mandatory after a certain dungeon level.

and just for my entertainment, what about a pro in rares?

A pro monkey can play this game. The game rewards time sinks and mindless grinds.

Even group strategy is minimal. You can go in with 5 warriors and complete every single dungeon.
Yet Mesmers are shafted in PvE. You don't have that dps Warrior Priest build. Nor a single DoK healer build.

I loved the Builds from Swtor. You had gear stats and tree builds. These trait lines offer minimal level of strategy and all we get are cookie cutting crap. Experimentation is so minimal, and difference is negligible shit gets done and thrown away so fast.

Even a Diablo type build would have been marginally interesting. Tying fixed skills with weapons was the worst idea ever thinking about it.

[Trei]

Rickter, on 01 December 2012 - 02:28 AM, said:

well see trei, this is one of the gripes.  you must have ascended gear past fractals 10 correct?  for the agony resistance.

people are upset that they introduced higher tiered gear with not only better stats, but a condition resistance that is mandatory after a certain dungeon level.

and just for my entertainment, what about a pro in rares?

Honestly? That's exactly what some of my friends are doing, and they are not even pros.
I do not believe any content in this game is tuned specifically to be doable only in exotic gear.

There are many who also are currently able to get around Agony without infusion, by putting more effort in their level of game play, as far as level 20 frac.
At any rate, I don't feel I'm missing much even if I simply stop at 10.

[Sirius]

I don't really have a problem with levels per se, but the equipment thing could be a little concerning. Since I've been going very casual-mode I haven't touched legendary or ascended equipment (IIRC, anyway. I've got stuff from drops but I forget which is which), but if I had...

Well, honestly this top-tier of equipment never should have been so time-consuming to get to in the first place. Sure, you can make them different colours and say they're more special for some reason or another, give them different skins... but unless you want your game to be, I quote, a "boring grind" later on then it shouldn't be required that you spend huge amounts of time on it to max your character's, well, power level. You should be able to find or buy (from an in-game vendor for a reasonable price) a weapon that may not be as super-special, but will do the job every bit as well in WvW/PvE.

I really don't see what was wrong with GW1's approach there. And GW1 wasn't exactly the be-all-and-end-all of MMO-likes to me... but there are some things it got right, gear being one of them.

[farkov47]

At the current state of the game lvl 80 is 40 too many.
I felt I've already unlocked what skill I want at 40...and having arbitrary level to gain.. just for the sake of hitting that 'acceptable dungeon level requirement' is a pretty crap attempt at slowing progression.

Why not make lvl 40 the 'max level' and subsequent level is just skill points to unlock more options?

Edited by farkov47, 04 December 2012 - 09:21 AM.

[Runkleford]

If the argument is that casuals don't need the highest stat gear then why do hardcore players who are the most experienced and usually know a lot more about the game need even more stats to play the game? It's like arguing that poor people can do without tax breaks but giving those breaks to the rich.

[Elr3d]

Runkleford, on 04 December 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

If the argument is that casuals don't need the highest stat gear then why do hardcore players who are the most experienced and usually know a lot more about the game need even more stats to play the game? It's like arguing that poor people can do without tax breaks but giving those breaks to the rich.

Not wanting to start a troll or anything, but it's what actually is being done in most high developped countries since like 30 years.

To keep my post on the subject, level cap increase is probably what would kill GW2, when it has every tool possible implemented to just ignore it. They could make an expansion where the lowest zone starts at level 40 for example and up to 80 and be perfectly fine as far as PvE content is concerned, casuals wouldn't cry because they can go to the content even with low levels, and if high end zone AND lower zones are balanced to be attractive enough to high levels also (which is currently not the case by the way and needs to be fixed), hardcores won't cry either.

If there is a level cap increase it'll be perceived as artificial alienation to the game (and it'll pretty much be just that), given how they handle things so far. It will definitely be devastating for Anet image and they could lose quite a bit of their playerbase. Ascended ranting showed how much people got enticed for horizontal progression.

Edited by Elr3d, 04 December 2012 - 01:30 PM.

[TakumiUsui]

Well if they add more Levels it means they will add new Traits and more ways to customize your Builds.

Increasing the Level Cap is not really a bad thing AS LONG as it does not make the old Items useless.

They also said the low level areas are going to become more attractive and the Open world Bosses will be worth hunting. I hope they actually do it.

[Shayne Hawke]

Gaining experience, and thereby levels, is piss easy to do and can be done by doing just about anything in the game.  Having a level greater than the level of the area you are in offers little advantage due to downscaling.  In itself, adding more levels is no issue.

What concerns me is the reason they would do this.  What does raising the level cap do?  To put simply, it facilitates additional vertical progression.  And, if I understand correctly, it almost necessitates it.  Players with gear below their level that are downscaled to the level of that gear are weaker than players of that level with that level of equipment, traits aside.  If the cap gets raised to 90 for example, I will be weaker in a level 80 zone at level 90 than I was at 80 because all of my gear is ten levels behind.  To bring myself back into alignment, I must obtain new max level counterparts of all of my gear that was previously max level.

It's not as bad as Ascended gear, but it opens up the floor to add post-Ascended progression.  If the idea now is for me to climb the ladder of Rare>Exotic>Ascended at level 80, then I imagine they'll expect with raising the cap that I should progress as Rare>Exotic>Ascended>???.

[draxynnic]

omar316, on 01 December 2012 - 03:31 AM, said:

I loved the Builds from Swtor. You had gear stats and tree builds. These trait lines offer minimal level of strategy and all we get are cookie cutting crap. Experimentation is so minimal, and difference is negligible shit gets done and thrown away so fast.

Even a Diablo type build would have been marginally interesting. Tying fixed skills with weapons was the worst idea ever thinking about it.

I think personally a bigger issue to preventing people from experimenting is the price tag attached to respeccing - it encourages people to, as much as possible, pick one build and stick to it. And the best way to make sure it's a decent build you've got is to copy (possibly with some adaptation) what's popular...

Basically, instead of simply trying something out for the sake of experimentation, in order for it to be worth paying the cost of a respec you need to be at least reasonably certain that you're going to be better with the new build rather than finding it to be a failed experiment and opening your wallet again going back to the old spec. Waypoint costs don't help either, since apart from Southsun Cove you'll be looking at more costs or travel time to get to somewhere where you can put the new build to a proper test.

It doesn't help that some weapons benefit from widely different trait builds than others, potentially discouraging people from trying weaponset A when they've traited with weaponsets B and C in mind.

Now, there's also a certain element that the traitlines at the moment leave a little to be desired when it comes to balance - there are some that are widely recognised as just not worth investing in, while others are regularly taken to 30 because they're just so good. However, if the price was taken off respeccing, I expect we'd see a lot more experimentation.

[Dasryn]

omar316, on 01 December 2012 - 01:41 AM, said:

Please oh please do tell me. What the hell is there so fun to do in this game.

There are 3 modes.
PvE.
sPvP.
And open world PvP.

You just struck me out on the PvE side, to grind/play, own time own target. Fine.

sPvP does nothing to progress your PvE/grind from the main game.
Open world, yeah we all know what that entails.

No one is rushing. People need to sit down and think. What is the goal to play this shit. I really don't know what to say.
I mean, are we playing that shitty ass Curiousity on iOS/Android? Gamification. El oh el.

Gamification of a MMORPG. A RPG. Good lord. What next. Pull yourself out of Anet's arse and think about what you just said.
In every game there is a general purpose. What is the purpose we are grinding or trying to reach while wasting/side tracking for the said 250 of those shit.

dude this is a pass time you do realize that right?  like, nothing you do in this game is productive to your real life.

dont think about it too much, just log in and find something you find fun, even if it doesnt help you progress to the next best gear, just do soemthing that you enjoy.

[RandolfRa]

I have played lots of mmos during the last 8 years, but somehow I always get drawn back to Guild Wars 1. Quess gw2 was no exception.

Edited by RandolfRa, 06 December 2012 - 02:48 AM.

[fatrodmc]

draxynnic, on 06 December 2012 - 02:15 AM, said:

I think personally a bigger issue to preventing people from experimenting is the price tag attached to respeccing - it encourages people to, as much as possible, pick one build and stick to it.

I think you are correct, and that this is a huge issue.

I have just spent 50 hours (and 25 days) getting my first alt to 80. Now I need spend another 50 hours to earn the 40g I need to get him into all exotics + sigils/runes, and basically I get once choice because there is no way in hell I am going to grind away for another build after that.

[Trei]

draxynnic, on 06 December 2012 - 02:15 AM, said:

I think personally a bigger issue to preventing people from experimenting is the price tag attached to respeccing - it encourages people to, as much as possible, pick one build and stick to it. And the best way to make sure it's a decent build you've got is to copy (possibly with some adaptation) what's popular...

For what it's worth, I felt the training tomes thingies that we needed to buy to access higher tiers of traits offered me three full respecs for free already.

That's a lot of builds I could experiment with each one as I access the higher tiers.

I started by spending all my points at the beginning on tier1 traits, every single line, so I could get a feel of how they work.
When I bought my second tome, I did the same, only this time I spent all my points up to tier 2 for 3 lines. Now I know how the tier 2 traits can work.

I have yet to buy my tier 3 tome because I'm still not done trying various quirky build with what traits I already have right now.

But here's the thing: I don't go for best build or specs, as in the most efficient or most powerful etc.
I pick a specific identity I want for my character, choose the lines whose names best reflect that, then I work on the traits to come up with something practical.

Edited by Trei, 06 December 2012 - 03:33 AM.

[fatrodmc]

Trei, on 06 December 2012 - 03:31 AM, said:

For what it's worth, I felt the training tomes thingies that we needed to buy to access higher tiers of traits offered me three full respecs for free already.

That's a lot of builds I could experiment with each one as I access the higher tiers.

I started by spending all my points at the beginning on tier1 traits, every single line, so I could get a feel of how they work.
When I bought my second tome, I did the same, only this time I spent all my points up to tier 2 for 3 lines. Now I know how the tier 2 traits can work.

I have yet to buy my tier 3 tome because I'm still not done trying various quirky build with what traits I already have right now.

But here's the thing: I don't go for best build or specs, as in the most efficient or most powerful etc.
I pick a specific identity I want for my character, choose the lines whose names best reflect that, then I work on the traits to come up with something practical.

That trait points can quickly and cheaply be changed. Its the specs you choose for your armor that cost a fortune to change.

[draxynnic]

Trei, on 06 December 2012 - 03:31 AM, said:

For what it's worth, I felt the training tomes thingies that we needed to buy to access higher tiers of traits offered me three full respecs for free already.

That's a lot of builds I could experiment with each one as I access the higher tiers.

I started by spending all my points at the beginning on tier1 traits, every single line, so I could get a feel of how they work.
When I bought my second tome, I did the same, only this time I spent all my points up to tier 2 for 3 lines. Now I know how the tier 2 traits can work.

I have yet to buy my tier 3 tome because I'm still not done trying various quirky build with what traits I already have right now.

But here's the thing: I don't go for best build or specs, as in the most efficient or most powerful etc.
I pick a specific identity I want for my character, choose the lines whose names best reflect that, then I work on the traits to come up with something practical.

So what are you going to do when you do get that tier 3 tome?

At 80 before getting your tier 3 tome, you'll only be able to try all the tier 2 traits on 3 specs without retraining. Once you do get that tome, you'll only be able to have two lines at 30 at any one time - so in order to just try out all the traits it's going to take at least two respecs, and more if you want to actually try out specific synergies rather than just 'okay, I've seen X trait in action now'.

The cost is lower than the cost of tomes (thank heavens!) but it's still enough to present a barrier to experimentation for the sake of experimentation once you get to max level. Now, some people are going to be more willing to wear that cost than others, but I'd be willing to suspect that more people would be willing to try, say, non-grenadier engineers if they weren't faced with paying that cost twice in order to get back to what they had before.

[Trei]

fatrodmc, on 06 December 2012 - 04:02 AM, said:

That trait points can quickly and cheaply be changed. Its the specs you choose for your armor that cost a fortune to change.

I'm not sure if I fully understand.
I'm still a long way to go from getting any high end gear myself, by then I would likely have a good idea what spec I'd prefer.

[ben911993]

Trei, on 06 December 2012 - 04:48 AM, said:

I'm not sure if I fully understand.
I'm still a long way to go from getting any high end gear myself, by then I would likely have a good idea what spec I'd prefer.

Part of the idea of an RPG though, is to be able to try any build. But with what few attribute combinations are available on equipment in game and how expensive a full set of exotic equipment costs, investing into a build and trying it out to see if you like it is expensive. Not to mention items being soulbound. It's a system that's very prohibitive of players wishing to explore their options.

As an example, my main character has only been able to afford two builds' worth of armor and weapon sets, and one build's worth of accessories/trinkets, and that's after 300-350 hours of play and world completion. For a player without the time it takes to farm enough gold to get an armor set, it can be hard to deviate from a build you invested in without knowing it would turn out bad or just not your preferred playstyle. But once you've used that equipment and tested it out, its value pretty much goes out the window. If you turn out to not want to play that build you worked yourself into, the only way you might redeem some of the cost is by salvaging the armor and hoping for ectos, or possibly runes/sigils. It turns exploring your options and possibilities into a prohibitive gold sink. =/

[Trei]

draxynnic, on 06 December 2012 - 04:38 AM, said:

So what are you going to do when you do get that tier 3 tome?

I'm not even sure if I want those tier 3 traits.
I have already tried them in the Mists, and they aren't traits I can't do without.

Even if I do end up getting tier 3, I may want to do so only because I would like to have one more tier 2 or 1 trait in that line for that synergy etc.
Then I could also try out the last two lines to tier 2 which I currently do not have, by replacing
two of which I now know I don't prefer.

Is there any synergy I cannot test in the Mists?
It doesn't take a stretch of imagination for me to figure out what would be good with another once I know what a trait does, how it works and how it could affect another trait.

I really don't think I need to run an actual dungeon to see how a set of traits I chose would perform on an actual boss.

Edited by Trei, 06 December 2012 - 05:25 AM.

[Trei]

ben911993, on 06 December 2012 - 05:03 AM, said:

Part of the idea of an RPG though, is to be able to try any build. But with what few attribute combinations are available on equipment in game and how expensive a full set of exotic equipment costs, investing into a build and trying it out to see if you like it is expensive. Not to mention items being soulbound. It's a system that's very prohibitive of players wishing to explore their options.

As an example, my main character has only been able to afford two builds' worth of armor and weapon sets, and one build's worth of accessories/trinkets, and that's after 300-350 hours of play and world completion. For a player without the time it takes to farm enough gold to get an armor set, it can be hard to deviate from a build you invested in without knowing it would turn out bad or just not your preferred playstyle. But once you've used that equipment and tested it out, its value pretty much goes out the window. If you turn out to not want to play that build you worked yourself into, the only way you might redeem some of the cost is by salvaging the armor and hoping for ectos, or possibly runes/sigils. It turns exploring your options and possibilities into a prohibitive gold sink. =/

But what would that have to do with respec costs? I would imagine it pales in comparison to armor costs.

Your issue sounds like one more to do with the existence of gear stats itself.

[ben911993]

Trei, on 06 December 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

But what would that have to do with respec costs? I would imagine it pales in comparison to armor costs.

Your issue sounds like one more to do with the existence of gear stats itself.

More that the stats of your gear determine a large portion of how capably you can play the build you desire, but yes, more or less.

The re-spec cost itself isn't actually all that bad, only 3.5s right? But still, I don't like re-spec costs simply on principle. I preferred the system of attributes and runes in GW1.