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After playing GW2, I decided I'd prefer a sub fee over any cash shop


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#121 LFk

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 04:08 PM

I think most of the OP's original topics are valid discussion points.

I wish you didn't include the ecto argument:
https://forum-en.gui...en-no-Ecto-Nerf

This was something I posted to the official forums in an attempt to stem the flow of "OMG ecto nerf" threads.
As of right now, I have gotten over 10,000 recorded salvages.
The overall ratio by grouping days is and has always been 0.88 +/- 0.05.
The overall ratio when I group by blocks of 1000 is an even tighter ratio: 0.88 +/- 0.02.
The at this kind of sample size, the only argument i'd accept is "your ecto salvage rate is different from mine". Fine. Maybe ArenaNet determines your character salvage rate at creation. It's just a hidden property you're stuck with. If you believe that, then... well...I have no way to prove anything to you.


For the other posts, I generally see things the other way, but I can see where you are coming from for a lot of them. For example, I wondered at the lack of a true trading system initially. Being a very active market trader, though, I personally enjoyed the benefit of it shunting players to the trading post. It creates a more lively trading post, and relatively little trade spam. All chat channels would need to be universally turned off otherwise. Before anyone tries this one: creation of a dedicated trade channel would not help. People would just seek to spam whichever global channels have the least trade spam to have their lines seen - this might even include team chat in WvW, which would be very irritating. Overall, the trading post oriented economy does have the side effect of making the game cleaner, which I value highly. Global chats can be used as a real conduit for information (at least team chat in WvW). So admittedly, I want the lack of trade functionality to stay.

Edited by LFk, 30 November 2012 - 04:11 PM.


#122 Sueisfine

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 04:12 PM

I know this is probably just me, but I'm so used to play sub MMOs without cash shops that the mere fact that you're able to buy, for example, extra bank slots with gold that you can earn in-game, makes buying those same bank slots with real cash (through gems) even feel like "cheating" to me...  :P   But then again, earning my own money in-game (via farming, crafting, etc) is part of the fun of an MMO to me personally.

#123 Alleji

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 04:40 PM

View PostLFk, on 30 November 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

I think most of the OP's original topics are valid discussion points.

I wish you didn't include the ecto argument:
https://forum-en.gui...en-no-Ecto-Nerf

This was something I posted to the official forums in an attempt to stem the flow of "OMG ecto nerf" threads.
Oh, well, I did say it was "anecdotal evidence" because I've only recorded a batch of about 50 salvages post-november patch and a few more here andthere after I noticed that I got like 2 ectos on a batch of 10 rares. I will yield to superior statistics :P

Even ignoring the ectos, there's plenty of ways anet messed with the cash shop and this was one of the smaller ones on my list anyway.

Edited by Alleji, 30 November 2012 - 04:42 PM.


#124 Vexies

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 05:23 PM

Quote

Of course we would wish that doing the things that we want to do would get us as much gold as we want, but that would mean we won't need to buy gems for gold or farm for them anymore.  I doubt ArenaNet would like that.

But you see we dont need to buy gems at all.. thats my whole point.  You may look at it like a time / money issue but to me its playing the game. I dont buy currency. If something takes x long to get then it takes that long. Especially in a game like GW2 where even if I had the big uber shiney.. it means almost nothing at all other than self satisfaction.

Anet designed a game to play how you want and I do.  I very much enjoy myself and do only the things I WANT to do.  You seem to try to invalidate that by saying that I cant do precisely what I do every day. Play the game, enjoy myself and still obtain the things I want with out EVER having to pay them anything more than the box price.

I have played this entire time and have only spent 10 bucks, not because I had to but because I wanted to.  You want to buy gems for gold and fast track your supposed progression to acquire things then awesome! but its totally optional and not at all required.  If YOU CHOSE to take the expensive short cut that was YOUR CHOICE.  However, dont be surprised that it costs something to do it.  Id remove the option all together but at least Anet lets the player decide his route.

Edited by Vexies, 30 November 2012 - 05:25 PM.


#125 MazingerZ

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 06:10 PM

View PostVexies, on 30 November 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

I have played this entire time and have only spent 10 bucks, not because I had to but because I wanted to.  You want to buy gems for gold and fast track your supposed progression to acquire things then awesome! but its totally optional and not at all required.  If YOU CHOSE to take the expensive short cut that was YOUR CHOICE.  However, dont be surprised that it costs something to do it.  Id remove the option all together but at least Anet lets the player decide his route.

Until they attach a "shallow power curve" to their end-game, meaning that if you don't want to be Left BehindTM you had better be getting your items in the most efficient manner possible.

Nevermind the idea that they have their hands on the wheel of the economy, changing things like drop rates so that if people are making money instead of going to the cash shop at the rate they would like to make money... yeah.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#126 Vexies

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 06:22 PM

Quote

Until they attach a "shallow power curve" to their end-game, meaning that if you don't want to be Left BehindTM you had better be getting your items in the most efficient manner possible.

So..you do the new content?  Seriously what is this imaginary RUSH to get to the gear wall.. it means NOTHING in this game the difference between max gear and your performance and no max gear is negligible at best.  I guarantee that building for survival and being better able to move out of that big red circle on the floor / knowing when do dodge and interrupt when appropriate is worth more than a whole set of new shiny "shallow power curve" gear.

So it takes me two weeks to get the new shiny rather than a few minutes cause you opened up your wallet.. it MEANS NOTHING other than you where gullible enough to put out the money lol.

People still treat this like WoW or other seriously gear based MMO's where content ACTUALLY was gated by gear and it actually mattered that you where world first that killed so and so.  Those rules simply dont apply to GW2 at all so i say again that if it takes me a couple weeks of playing the game to get the new shiney vs buying it.. it doesn't mean anything other than I was smarter and saved my money.

Edited by Vexies, 30 November 2012 - 07:22 PM.


#127 Zhaitan

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 06:31 PM

View PostKaaqeli, on 29 November 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

First, the dyes. There was this bug sometime ago that made dyes drop from almost every monster you killed. During that time dyes went from ~5s to ~2s on the trading post. Once the supply ran out the price went back to normal -BUT- the massive amount of bots Anet has banned has infuenced the market quite suverely. These bots were getting tons of dyes as drops. Listing 100,000 dyes on the trading post will pretty much likely drop the price of said item. The price was steadily going down even before the drop bug, but after all those bots got banned and their humongous dye supply dried out, the price went throught the roof. No conspiration here.

Second, the crafting mats. Same thing here. Huge supply from bots -> prices go down. Bots get banned -> prices rise skyhigh.

Dye costs are quite prohibitive for many people's amusement. It's more problematic because dyes are not account-wide. I don't know about you but, I can't fork 17.5g on Abyss Dye even if I want it. By the time I finish this post, the cost may as well be 18g. So, BOT or no-BOT, valid vs. invalid reason, the end-effect still bugs me. So, I commiserate with the OP.

View PostKaaqeli, on 29 November 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

Third, the ecto stealth nerf. No. Just no. This whole " I'm getting fewer ectos than last week! ANET Y U STEALTH NERF ECTOS?!" is just ridiculous. There's actually an official response from Anet on the official forums

(https://forum-en.gui...ge/2#post818370)

clearly stating that there's no nerf on the drop rate. It's just RNG people!

Many people are breaking rares to make ectos. So, Server-wise ecto population is going up. People who manages MMO economy know that to manage the demand/supply ratio they can't allow more than a set number of material being farmed over a same period of time. Thanks to FotM, where rares are quite abundant, it makes it a single best place to farm for them. Given every single person and his uncle running that place 24/7, supply of rares and exotics are at an all time high. Many rares/exotics being broken than before and the upper limit of Ecto yield is hit quite easily; and during peak hours, its even worse. That is making the chances of getting Ectos from rares go down for general populace. Try salvaging at odd hours for the server, the yield will be lower giving you a much better end-result. Wake up in the middle of night to pee and break a rare. Yep! :)

EDIT: Disclaimer - No tin-foil hat was broken while giving this simple lesson of economics.

Edited by Zhaitan, 30 November 2012 - 06:36 PM.


#128 Xeviant

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 06:42 PM

Again, this comes down to the fact that I enjoy playing the game.  Playing the game earns me an equivalent amount of gold (via clearing areas/running dungeons etc.)  So, if I'm earning gold by doing what I enjoy, I don't see the problem.  The gemstore provides an alternative to people who don't have the time/desire to earn the gold in game, but also cuts back on the gold farmer issues as well.  Personally, I'm glad there hasn't been the insane gold inflation that we see in other games.  I've never felt like the gem story was thrust upon me or even the slightest bit necessary for me to progress.

#129 Eliirae

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 06:48 PM

Except there are tons of people who play without touching the cash shop.  Saying "I want the game to be P2P because I can't control myself when there's a cash shop!" is very selfish, because you aren't the only one playing this game.  Not to mention this game was pretty much expected to be F2P in the first place (and wasn't it advertised as such?), so if it suddenly went P2P to satisfy those who can't control their urges with cash shops then a LOT of people will stop playing entirely.

Also, there are no conspiracy theories.  A cash shop is there so people who want to can still pay and support the company because otherwise there is no other money coming in aside from buying the game and it's expansions.

Yes, I'm talking directly to the OP.  Deal with it.

#130 MazingerZ

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 06:51 PM

View PostVexies, on 30 November 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

So..you do the new content?  Seriously what is this imaginary RUSH to get to the gear wall.. it means NOTHING in this game the difference between max gear and your performance and no max gear is negligible at best.  I guarantee that building for survival and being better able to move out of that big red circle on the floor / knowing when do dodge and interrupt when appropriate is worth more than a whole set of new shiny "shallow power curve" gear.

So it takes me two weeks to get the new shiny rather than a few minutes cause you opened up your wallet.. it MEANS NOTHING other than you where gullible enough to put out the money lol.

People still treat this like WoW or other seriously gear based MMO's where content ACTUALLY was gated by gear and it actually mattered that you where world first that killed so and so.  Those rules simply dont apply to GW2 at all so i say again that if it takes me a couple weeks of playing the game to get the new shiney vs buying it.. it does mean anything other than I was smarter and saved my money.

...Do you actually have an infused Ascended back piece?  How often do you play a day?  What do you do?
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#131 wyvern

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 07:05 PM

After playing Planetside 2, I am going to disagree fully. I am completely all in with f2p.

I think a lot of decisions ArenaNet has made isn't really to milk the cash shop as much as it is just complete ineptitude when it comes to design. They don't have the pulse of their playerbase nor know how to design an MMORPG. I think this is reflected in how the overall world feels, which is not cash shop related. While it is big with a lot of artistic detail, from the view of a fully crafted world, it comes up lacking. When I log in to Guild Wars 2, I feel like I am dumped into an amusement park, not a fantasy world. They have great technology behind dynamic events, they just don't know how to utilize it.

Things like how they have designed their itemization shows just a lack of innovativeness. A lot of the mistakes present in Guild Wars 1 are very much present in Guild Wars 2 but to a greater extent. They try too hard to be different in some areas, but they didn't have the skill in MMORPG design to truly realize what they want. The Ascended gear shows that even if they went down the road of a traditional MMORPG, they still don't have the creativeness to think outside of this box they are in.

Edited by wyvern, 30 November 2012 - 07:33 PM.


#132 Vexies

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 07:06 PM

Quote

...Do you actually have an infused Ascended back piece?  How often do you play a day?  What do you do?

Im not sure what that has to do with my philosophy or the way GW2 plays but ill bite.

Do I?  Nope. am I working on one?  yep, and I know ill get one eventually but I have backed off a bit since they stated they are going to be lowering the amount of mats required.

As far as how often I play I am actually (time wise) a very casual player now due to having a family / job. During the week I play on average probably 3 hours a night but more on the weekends.  My time to me is very important so I try to be as efficient as possible with it. that said I have plenty of gold due to smart farming, jewel crafting and playing the TP.  Typically im not all that rich in most games as I previously never really put much effort into that aspect of the game as I was always raiding, raiding, raiding. However in GW2 I wanted to see what it would take to be comfortably wealthy so to speak and it hasn't been all that difficult at all really.  Over all I have very much enjoyed taking my time and having fun with the content.  Something I still very much enjoy doing.  Now that I have my main kitted out where I want em (baring the slow burn on the legendary / ascended items) I have joined a WVW guild to get the most out of that content and run dungeons when the guild isnt focus on a WVW push.

Edited by Vexies, 30 November 2012 - 07:09 PM.


#133 Wikid

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 07:13 PM

Two words.... entitlement complex.

Give me...give me... give me...

#134 Robsy128

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 07:55 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 30 November 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

Obviously. Since you can buy anything in the gem store with gems, and you can buy gems with gold, and you can get gold in the game.

Or you can just play the game and still find those items without even thinking about gems whatsoever. The only things that are cash shop only are character slots, banks slots and cosmetic items. All of these are completely optional additions. There's nothing there forcing you to buy them. I would agree if you only had 1 character slot or 1 bank tab, but the truth is, the base game is just fine on its own. It's not like LOTRO where they deliberately lock out content so that you're forced to buy it.

#135 malevolence

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 07:58 PM

View PostVexies, on 30 November 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

Im not sure what that has to do with my philosophy or the way GW2 plays but ill bite.

Do I?  Nope. am I working on one?  yep, and I know ill get one eventually but I have backed off a bit since they stated they are going to be lowering the amount of mats required.

As far as how often I play I am actually (time wise) a very casual player now due to having a family / job. During the week I play on average probably 3 hours a night but more on the weekends.  My time to me is very important so I try to be as efficient as possible with it. that said I have plenty of gold due to smart farming, jewel crafting and playing the TP.  Typically im not all that rich in most games as I previously never really put much effort into that aspect of the game as I was always raiding, raiding, raiding. However in GW2 I wanted to see what it would take to be comfortably wealthy so to speak and it hasn't been all that difficult at all really.  Over all I have very much enjoyed taking my time and having fun with the content.  Something I still very much enjoy doing.  Now that I have my main kitted out where I want em (baring the slow burn on the legendary / ascended items) I have joined a WVW guild to get the most out of that content and run dungeons when the guild isnt focus on a WVW push.

This is the same story repeating all over again, I am also a casual player, yes, I have a family, a job, a study, friends, party and guild wars 2. Yet I am about to get the infused ascended back gear without crying without complaining, is perfectly natural. And is not only that, my whole guild is based on poeple on my same age (we are friends in real life), with the same responsibilities and we are getting all ascended stuff etc and have in our banks about 70 gold each. I mean , really,  people crying and complaining, I always think is people playing the game wrong, or doing something wrong, because everything is possible, or it may be just people complaining about the game because they are bad bad players, or trying to sabotage guild wars 2, or just spoiled kids, that wants everything on day 1, I don't know. Yet we may say, luck is luck, but a guild composed of 6 members, that all are casual players, with family etc, and yet, we manage to get what most cannot, is just weird. Or maybe people complaining are just lazy, and they don't want to play dungeons, etc, they just want everything easy and they claimed to be hardcore or something, but they are lying.

#136 Daesu

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:01 PM

View PostVexies, on 30 November 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

But you see we dont need to buy gems at all.. thats my whole point.  You may look at it like a time / money issue but to me its playing the game. I dont buy currency. If something takes x long to get then it takes that long. Especially in a game like GW2 where even if I had the big uber shiney.. it means almost nothing at all other than self satisfaction.

Anet designed a game to play how you want and I do.  I very much enjoy myself and do only the things I WANT to do.  You seem to try to invalidate that by saying that I cant do precisely what I do every day. Play the game, enjoy myself and still obtain the things I want with out EVER having to pay them anything more than the box price.

I have played this entire time and have only spent 10 bucks, not because I had to but because I wanted to.  You want to buy gems for gold and fast track your supposed progression to acquire things then awesome! but its totally optional and not at all required.  If YOU CHOSE to take the expensive short cut that was YOUR CHOICE.  However, dont be surprised that it costs something to do it.  Id remove the option all together but at least Anet lets the player decide his route.

But you are you, not everybody has the same wants as you.  The word "optional" is very subjective.  Having a legendary is totally optional to me but it is a goal for some people.   Being a commander is optional, but for some people it is a goal.

By placing yourself and your wants/needs on everybody else is not going to work.  You can stick with your white/blue gear for your level 80s and wear those for 5 years, but not everybody wants to do that.

In the end, it is what each one of us enjoys doing that matters, not what is "optional" or not according to someone else.  If someone enjoys being a commander, he should be able to reach that at a reasonable time.  If someone enjoys wearing full exotic instead of blue/white gear, he should be able to reach that at a reasonable time too.  Not 5 years down the road.

What I enjoy doing (i.e. exploring) earns me very little gold so it is going to take me many years to get commander with the current economic situation.  I have barely 1g at the moment.  I can't even afford to max out all 5 of my level 80s with exotic gear.  And I simply refuse to farm dungeons/FOTM or anywhere else, because I don't enjoy doing that.  For casual players like me, who barely plays 1 to 2 hrs/day, buying gems for gold makes sense.

Also I want full berserker set for my ranger, why?  Because a berserker set would fit her build the best.  Yes, I could have settled for a cheaper exotic, but that wouldn't feel fun to me anymore.  Ultimately, it is pointless to play a game that you don't enjoy.

Edited by Daesu, 30 November 2012 - 08:25 PM.


#137 Millimidget

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:05 PM

View PostZhaitan, on 30 November 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

Dye costs are quite prohibitive for many people's amusement. It's more problematic because dyes are not account-wide. I don't know about you but, I can't fork 17.5g on Abyss Dye even if I want it. By the time I finish this post, the cost may as well be 18g. So, BOT or no-BOT, valid vs. invalid reason, the end-effect still bugs me. So, I commiserate with the OP.
I don't think that has to do with drop rate so much as it does with there being far fewer people around finding/opening dyes to provide the supply needed to drive the cost down.

I've noticed this recently with what I believe are some pieces of gear coming from mystic forge recipes; as overall activity declines, prices will inflate, especially since big-money players tend to stick around longer and begin making up a larger percentage of the remaining playerbase.

#138 Keepy

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:10 PM

Anyway what good games pay to play out there? mention some so i can research. But dont say WoW... im too late for that one.

#139 Nox_Aeterna

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:13 PM

View PostKeepy, on 30 November 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

Anyway what good games pay to play out there? mention some so i can research. But dont say WoW... im too late for that one.

No idea if it will be good , just a huge bet , but we can wait on Elder Scroll Online , problem is how long it will take for it to come out really.

Only major good feature we got give to GW2 is the no need to pay to play, can wait for now , while play other single player games.

#140 Vexies

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:22 PM

Quote

This is the same story repeating all over again, I am also a casual player, yes, I have a family, a job, a study, friends, party and guild wars 2. Yet I am about to get the infused ascended back gear without crying without complaining, is perfectly natural

Exactly this.  We are very similar then in our experiences and this is why I say the whole ZOMG ITZ ALL BOUT DA CASH SHOP is total BS.  Yes they want you to buy stuff.. they want to make money, but its hardly necessary at all to get what you want in a reasonable amount of time just by PLAYING the game.

IF your the impatient sort then pony up I guess and open that wallet but its totally your own choice and not required in the slightest.  If you want to buy gems fantastic but dont complain that it cost you money to do so..  You dont have to buy them.

Edited by Vexies, 30 November 2012 - 08:26 PM.


#141 MazingerZ

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:31 PM

View PostDaesu, on 30 November 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

But you are you, not everybody has the same wants as you.  The word "optional" is very subjective.  Having a legendary is totally optional to me but it is a goal for some people.   Being a commander is optional, but for some people it is a goal.

By placing yourself and your wants/needs on everybody else is not going to work.  You can stick with your white/blue gear for your level 80s and wear those for 5 years, but not everybody wants to do that.

In the end, it is what each one of us enjoys doing that matters, not what is "optional" or not according to someone else.  If someone enjoys being a commander, he should be able to reach that at a reasonable time.  If someone enjoys wearing full exotic instead of blue/white gear, he should be able to reach that at a reasonable time too.  Not 5 years down the road.

What I enjoy doing (i.e. exploring) earns me very little gold so it is going to take me many years to get commander with the current economic situation.  I have barely 1g at the moment.  I can't even afford to max out all 5 of my level 80s with exotic gear.  And I simply refuse to farm dungeons/FOTM or anywhere else, because I don't enjoy doing that.  For casual players like me, buying gems for gold makes sense.

Pretty much this.  I've got like five alts with maybe 2 g to their names.  Only two are 80.  I made maybe 5 gold off the single exotic I got playing around in Orr for an evening.  I was on like five attempts to open up Grenth's temple (the NPC is an idiot with no HP) and I got one exotic.  Not to mention that Orr on Tarnished Coast is pretty empty anyway with FOTM going on.  The only events attended to are opening the temples up... I don't think I've seen Balthazzar's temple open... and occasionally enough people can push to get Arah opened.  A fellow guildie who plays the game way more than I do did the math and said that FOTM is where you want to be for money.  Orr is a waste of time, if money is what you need and a in a lot of instances, it is.

There's also the theory of wealth-generation throttling that Zhaitan mentioned, which means people playing during peak hours are screwed.

Edited by MazingerZ, 30 November 2012 - 08:32 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#142 Naginto

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:38 PM

View PostSpooch, on 30 November 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

infusion of precursor drops and ascended gear made the rise of the t6 mats skyrocket and in my opinion that will negate each other in next 2-4 weeks
Wrong on both counts.
Bots made the T6 mats cheap (a two month long trend of lowered pricing)- here is the TP trend, note the Nov. patch was the 18th, and bot removal was earlier, so it was a change in supply that impacted the economy, not the increased drop rate of precursors from chests or introduction of ascended gear that happened weeks later.

#143 Asha2012

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:54 PM

View PostTrei, on 30 November 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

What I got out of your post can be summarised as follows:
"I want to play like an idiot with no money sense but the game don't let me"

Lmao. Um, not exactly and it is "won't let me".  No the game will "let" me do whatever I wish so long as I don't mind sinking gold into rallying at WP's and making armor repairs.

View PostTrei, on 30 November 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

Please realise that there are other players around whose experiences can be affected by yours, whether you intended it to or not.

If you are suggesting that I would "play like an idiot" and somehow adversely affect the gameplay of others, well that I would say would be a neat trick.  Aside from unintentionally aggroing a mob (which I'm quite good at NOT doing), there is not much in GW2 you can do to "affect" other players.  Furthermore, most of what I'm talking about is when I am playing out of party, with no other players around (happens a lot in mid-level maps my friend), so there is no one's "experiences" to affect.

View PostTrei, on 30 November 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

You seem to have a hard time arguing against the OP because I do not think you understand how complicated managing a virtual in-game economy can be.
Some rules are universal (like supply and demand), but not all.

Saying I have a "hard time arguing" with the OP is another way of saying I agree with him.  I'm not sure why "virtual" is in italics because you go on to say "some rules are universal' implying the fact that the economy is virtual does not make any difference.  

I understand economics, economies of scale, supply chain management, discounted cash flow, margins, APR, APY and a number of other fancy financial concepts.  As a 10+ year financial analyst, it is part of my job.  What I might not understand is how to work all that into gaming code.  Big difference.

Edited by Asha2012, 30 November 2012 - 08:55 PM.


#144 Naginto

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:57 PM

View PostEliirae, on 30 November 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

Except there are tons of people who play without touching the cash shop.  Saying "I want the game to be P2P because I can't control myself when there's a cash shop!" is very selfish, because you aren't the only one playing this game.  Not to mention this game was pretty much expected to be F2P in the first place (and wasn't it advertised as such?), so if it suddenly went P2P to satisfy those who can't control their urges with cash shops then a LOT of people will stop playing entirely.

Also, there are no conspiracy theories.  A cash shop is there so people who want to can still pay and support the company because otherwise there is no other money coming in aside from buying the game and it's expansions.

Yes, I'm talking directly to the OP.  Deal with it.
Except for your total lack of logic and inability to try to see both sides of a discussion, you're doing just fine! We don't have a true cash shop, because a shop sells....items! Because Anet has yet to actually populate the shop, the economic thrust has been to design content to push people towards using what is currently there..which is gems.

Re-read this entire thread. No one is spending money on a 3 month old armor skin set. Hardly anyone has even bought gems beyond a once-per-account expense of opening bank slots. Many who do that used in-game gold on the exchange, which gives Anet ZERO additional income. No one is saying they "can't control themselves" - where did you even get that idea? The OP is illustrating ingame costs and designs that push people to buy gems so that Anet will have income after the box purchase.

My personal pet peeve is I'd rather see a fully populated shop with great armor/weapon skins, town clothing, accessories etc that people would be willing to spend income on - thereby meeting Anets need for income. Instead we have the sneaky design of legendaries that require 1000 gold, or a sub-legendary tier that require 200-500 gold and other previously stated artificial money sinks. I'd have no problem throwing them $20 a month whether it be via subscription or shop.

No one is asking for the game to go pay-2-play, people are just mentioning the current system is a bit shady.

#145 Alleji

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:01 PM

View PostEliirae, on 30 November 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

Except there are tons of people who play without touching the cash shop.  Saying "I want the game to be P2P because I can't control myself when there's a cash shop!"
I was actually saying "I want the game to be P2P because that creates an even playing field". And I only bought a couple bank tabs from the shop. Looks like someone here read 2 paragraphs at random and is jumping to conclusions!

Quote

Yes, I'm talking directly to the OP.  Deal with it.
wegotabadassoverhere.jpg

Edited by Alleji, 30 November 2012 - 09:03 PM.


#146 Daesu

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:02 PM

View Postmalevolence, on 30 November 2012 - 07:58 PM, said:

This is the same story repeating all over again, I am also a casual player, yes, I have a family, a job, a study, friends, party and guild wars 2. Yet I am about to get the infused ascended back gear without crying without complaining, is perfectly natural. And is not only that, my whole guild is based on poeple on my same age (we are friends in real life), with the same responsibilities and we are getting all ascended stuff etc and have in our banks about 70 gold each. I mean , really,  people crying and complaining, I always think is people playing the game wrong, or doing something wrong, because everything is possible, or it may be just people complaining about the game because they are bad bad players, or trying to sabotage guild wars 2, or just spoiled kids, that wants everything on day 1, I don't know. Yet we may say, luck is luck, but a guild composed of 6 members, that all are casual players, with family etc, and yet, we manage to get what most cannot, is just weird. Or maybe people complaining are just lazy, and they don't want to play dungeons, etc, they just want everything easy and they claimed to be hardcore or something, but they are lying.

You are hardly a casual player compared to me.  I only play 1 to 2 hours a day, I never farm, never do dungeons, and I don't do FOTM.  I only enjoy exploring and that is the only thing I do when I login.  My goal in the game isn't to make as much gold as possible, it is simply to have fun.

ArenaNet understands that real casual players would not have much gold and they understand that most people do not like playing a minimal character with the bare white/blue gear for a long period of time.  Despite some posters, they understand what is "optional" and what is fun for us.  This is why commander costs 100g and this is why vial of powerful blood costs so much, ectos price keeps rising, etc.  They give us a way out, which is to buy gems with real money and convert them to gold.  They are smart this way.

If ArenaNet has ever wanted to control those prices, they can easily do that.  They can add a rune vendor, fine/common crafting material vendor, or even a exotic armor/weapon vendor, that sells at a cheap fixed price.  But of course they wouldn't.

Edited by Daesu, 30 November 2012 - 09:06 PM.


#147 MazingerZ

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:03 PM

View PostAsha2012, on 30 November 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

I understand economics, economies of scale, supply chain management, discounted cash flow, margins, APR, APY and a number of other fancy financial concepts.  As a 10+ year financial analyst, it is part of my job.  What I might not understand is how to work all that into gaming code.  Big difference.

Ah, so I have a question for you.  As a financial analyst, what's your opinion of managing a virtual economy where a singular Supreme Being can manipulate the generation of resources.  I speak specifically of manipulating, not setting them.  Such as when the world was spun, there is a finite amount of copper on this ball of dirt and where it is, how much there is of it (in the short term, not the long term... avoiding discussions on rarity or peak production)... what was wrought will not be changed by any form of intelligent hand.

Without getting into a severe theology discussion, assume that this being is capable of deciding the rate at which copper enters the world and can, at a moment's notice, affect that rate of generation if the rate becomes to fast or slow.  From that angle, they can therefore affect the price and value of that copper... both being separate things, as price is the monetary number and value is its intrinsic value in its application.

Also, what are the business ethics of having such influence while at the same time being able to spontaneously generate the wealth to acquire said copper for a certain class of people willing to take part in a practice that specifically benefits this Supreme Being?

Edited by MazingerZ, 30 November 2012 - 09:07 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#148 Alleji

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:07 PM

View PostZhaitan, on 30 November 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

Many people are breaking rares to make ectos. So, Server-wise ecto population is going up. People who manages MMO economy know that to manage the demand/supply ratio they can't allow more than a set number of material being farmed over a same period of time. Thanks to FotM, where rares are quite abundant, it makes it a single best place to farm for them. Given every single person and his uncle running that place 24/7, supply of rares and exotics are at an all time high. Many rares/exotics being broken than before and the upper limit of Ecto yield is hit quite easily; and during peak hours, its even worse. That is making the chances of getting Ectos from rares go down for general populace. Try salvaging at odd hours for the server, the yield will be lower giving you a much better end-result. Wake up in the middle of night to pee and break a rare. Yep! :)

EDIT: Disclaimer - No tin-foil hat was broken while giving this simple lesson of economics.
This... sounds ridiculous... but it would actually explain why people get wildly different results from salvaging rares. And it would be so deliciously evil on Anet's part, screwing with people like that!

/tinfoil and all, but I gotta try salvaging some rares in the early morning O.o

#149 Asha2012

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:08 PM

View PostI, on 29 November 2012 - 10:11 PM, said:

I agree with all of the OP's points, except for preferring a subscription fee.

Isn't that funny though (I am with you).  I guess I am just learning to live with all the OP's issues (which I also agree with).  F2P allows for a hiatus without feeling you are wasting money.  And it is not impossible to play the game while circumventing the cash shop, so I'll take a virtual gold sink over a real one.

Edited by Asha2012, 30 November 2012 - 09:08 PM.


#150 Naginto

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:14 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 30 November 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

Ah, so I have a question for you.  As a financial analyst, what's your opinion of managing a virtual economy where a singular Supreme Being can manipulate the generation of resources.  I speak specifically of manipulating, not setting them.  Such as when the world was spun, there is a finite amount of copper on this ball of dirt and where it is, how much there is of it (in the short term, not the long term... avoiding discussions on rarity or peak production)... what was wrought will not be changed by any form of intelligent hand.

Without getting into a severe theology discussion, assume that this being is capable of deciding the rate at which copper enters the world and can, at a moment's notice, affect that rate of generation if the rate becomes to fast or slow.  From that angle, they can therefore affect the price and value of that copper... both being separate things, as price is the monetary number and value is its intrinsic value in its application.

Also, what are the business ethics of having such influence while at the same time being able to spontaneously generate the wealth to acquire said copper for a certain class of people willing to take part in a practice that specifically benefits this Supreme Being?

I'll meet your hypothetical and raise you one! Since I personally find your posited question off topic in terms of how we play, or how the game is coded via the eoconomy, lets look at a different issue.

How will Anet design future changes to entice players to willingly give them enough money to pay for the development of new product? This thread clearly shows it isnt happening now.




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