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After playing GW2, I decided I'd prefer a sub fee over any cash shop


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#181 Uhhsam

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 05:44 PM

I still don't see what they are doing to force people into spending money on the cash shop.  Is it just the people who were incredibly desperate for one of those chainsaw skins during Halloween that are complaining?

What about the game can't you enjoy without spending money in the cash shop?  I sure hope people aren't sore about those breathing masks from the lost shores event.

The fastest way to do anything has always been to buy gold with cash.  More people are higher level now so gold is easier to come by and there are less bots flooding the market, so of course things are going to start getting more expensive.  Then they will come down again when more people have obtained what they want.

All I hear is "I'm desperate for some item and impatient, and it's not fair that the only way I can obtain this item in a few minutes is to spend cash!"

#182 dudewalker

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 06:22 PM

View PostShatteredz, on 30 November 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

Also, people, keep in mind that Anet is a company, not a charity. Those developers need to earn money, and the marketing people are actually trying to make money out of gw(like the rest of the world does with everything)

this.  i stopped reading the thread here, because i was amazed at how long it took for someone to actually jot down what its really all about.  at the end of the day, its real world business.  these gaming companies aren't exactly the most philanthropic of endeavors.  they want to make money like everyone else.  they have to live and feed their families too.  so everyone should just stop thinking they are trying to give us more for less.  they've got their reasons when they do what they do, and it usually is related to what they perceive is best for their bottom line or good PR to get you to buy the box.  don't fool yourselves in to thinking otherwise.

i have to admit, i was hooked in by the promises and "manifesto", and even spent a little money on gems.  then...not even 2 months after release...they do an about-face.  (where's your manifesto now, ANet?)  but i've been trying to find the MMO that will give me the gaming high that WoW did years ago, and i believed GW2 was going to be it.  now i just log in every now and then for map completion.  i'm a little excited about ESO, but i imagine its just going to be your standard mmo fare with a different i.p.  i digress, sorry...

all the constant bickering and snarking about whether a game is worth the money or what these companies do is kinda pointless.  you either feel like your getting your money's worth or not.  you either think its good value or not.  everyone has different expectations or thresholds on what they are willing to tolerate.  at the end of the day, companies do need to make money to keep making games.  whether its with a blatant sub fee or a subtle cash shop...does it really matter?  they are trying to keep their doors open and make a profit.    if they do, they'll make another game or expansion pack to try and make even more money.  if they don't - well, then they either close their doors or move on to the next potential money-making endeavor.  so, if you like a company's product then buy it and support it - if you don't, then don't.  the sun will rise tomorrow.

#183 Alleji

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 09:31 PM

View PostRitter, on 01 December 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

Face the reality, people gotta make money somehow. But the undeniable fact is that GW2 offers better value for your money than any other subscription game.
It's not a fact, it's your opinion.

Value is subjective. Personally, I value the fun I would get from a game not constrained by a cash shop at higher that 50 cents a day. You and some other people do not. See? Not a fact. And quite arguable, as evidenced by 7 pages of comments :)

#184 Jetjordan

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 09:44 PM

View PostDaesu, on 02 December 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

I am sure the game designers would disagree with you, since the cash shop has been placed there for their revenue.  But if you disagree with the game designers for putting it there, then maybe this game just isn't for YOU instead! :D

But I'm having fun playing the game, why wouldn't it be the game for me?  The ones complaining about this seem like they aren't   Don't understand this at all.

View PostMazingerZ, on 02 December 2012 - 04:46 PM, said:

They have to control the flow of fun to coerce a percentage of the population to give them money for more fun.  

This game is fun.  Seriously, this is such a dramatic statement I lol'ed.  I think you need to ask yourself, is having the best gear fun or is getting the best gear fun?  What's something you feel like you need to by from the cash shop to have fun?

#185 Spooch

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:16 AM

View PostBlixcoe, on 02 December 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

I have 5 gold and I play alot... you say it will take you a long time to get dusk because you ''only'' have 100g? 100g IS heck of a lot I tell you. I can't even afford the best inventory bags.....
best inv bags are overrated anyway and you can get them through fractals

#186 Daesu

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:18 AM

View PostJetjordan, on 02 December 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

But I'm having fun playing the game, why wouldn't it be the game for me?  The ones complaining about this seem like they aren't   Don't understand this at all.

If you are having fun, then you shouldn't be complaining about other people using the cash shop, which has been placed there in the game, by the game designers to support their efforts, since beta.

#187 alucard13mmfmj

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:13 AM

Diablo 3's Real Money Auction House... This is all that needed to be said.

"hur hur hur, rares will drop more often!, but quality of rares (which we do not mention in change notes!) will suck because of wider range of stats"

I think it might be possible to implement a donation system for future games? Like you play, but you pay however much you want for month. But maybe if you pay like the average or pay a certain amount you get like some custom SKINS that is different every month. If you like the game and you play it a lot, you donate more and get a cool skin. If you like the game but you suddenly cant play, then you can maybe donate like a dollar. If you dont like the game, you can quit and go away. I think this could be a viable path. Basically, I guess you can say... subscription but pay what you want. This model, the developers would have to make the game not suck to keep subscribers happy and get high donations.

Or they can implement time based system where players are charged like 10cent an hour of active play. I see good thing with this model too. Casual players arent tied to the game. Botters are going to be charged 10cent every hour for the 24 hours they will be on. Developers have to make the game good or people wont log on to accumulate hours.

I think game companies are short sighted with cash shop and fixed monthly subscription. I think there are plenty of models that can benefit everyone.

#188 Dasryn

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:30 AM

my wife and i sat down today for dinner and she told me she liked Rift better and that GW2 was essentially "boring".

i was a little astonished as i thought we were having a good time so i asked her why.  *please keep in mind, she is not on these forums, she does not know or care to know the threads i post in and what not* and she says, and i quote:

"there's no roles like tank and healer so its like everyone is just looking out for themselves.  we are all dps and half the time im just dying and i dont know from what or why, its just boring.  we just run around doing hearts and those events and the events are hit or miss, some are fun, some are not.  i dont know, i just really enjoyed Rift more."

so i asked her why she enjoyed Rift, she stated several reasons:
  • dungeon finder made getting into groups fast, easier and we really felt like there was structure.  like ok, we are this level, lets hop in this dungeon and test our mettle - bing, queued up!
  • if you got tired of questing, you could literally queue up for a raid group to perform what Rift called, "Instant Adventures" which was one never ending Dynamic Event that ranged from protecting NPCs to collecting items, to downing world bosses to closing Rifts
  • if you got tired of questing, you could literally queue up for a raid group to close Rifts, thats right, you could just run around in a large raid group closing Rifts, which on a decent machine, those Rifts were epic encounters - and this was never ending as well.
​i have to agree with her, those were good times.  

but i had to rationalize with her.  i said, well hun, GW2 is the best we got right now.  its a truly free to play mmorpg.  for both of us to play Rift, its $30 a month - thats a tank of gas - and i honestly cant bring myself to pay to play a game that we only get to play together on the weekends due to her work schedule.

she agreed and is "finished with GW2" until next weekend so she is now watching American Horror Story on Netflix.

SO: on topic and TL;DR -  paid content does create a pressure to play, but you as a subscriber get to make little demands that if you have a half way decent developer, they will try their hardest to appease you and feed your demands because you are paying them every month to play their game. the pressure is on you to play, but the pressure is on them to develop

i believe a game like Rift is a superior experience.  but for what im looking for in an mmorpg, GW2 is the best thing for me and its gonna have to be the best thing for my wife because she only plays on the weekends :-/

so if you are missing paid subscription, then go back, cuz you aint gonna find the same level here.

#189 pcpsong

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:38 AM

Rift is awful bland re-skin of WoW with worse game mechanics....<cue heated debate fo your MMO is better than mine>

Don't need to buy gold. I play casually, have had full exotics several times over (changed spec twice) and still found time to breathe in the air....

Cool story tho

#190 Jetjordan

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 02:43 AM

View PostDaesu, on 03 December 2012 - 12:18 AM, said:

If you are having fun, then you shouldn't be complaining about other people using the cash shop, which has been placed there in the game, by the game designers to support their efforts, since beta.

Uh, I like that fact that there is a cash shop.  I bought some gems at Halloween just to support ANET more or less.  At no point have I complained about others using the cash shop either.  Please don't misconstrue what I'm saying here.  What I'm saying is that you should just have fun with the game (which is not hard imo) and not let some guy who did buy gems for gold and sexy gear bother you. Please read posts before quoting out of context and misrepresenting opinions.  

Allow me to be VERY clear.  I like the cash shop, although I don't feel the need to use it much and I'm having fun while basically ignoring it.  HOORAY for people using it more than me that are funding content and ANET.  Thus I don't feel like a sub would make anything better.  In fact they would lose people like me that will buy expansions and occasionally buy a character slot ect...

#191 Daesu

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:20 AM

View PostJetjordan, on 03 December 2012 - 02:43 AM, said:

Uh, I like that fact that there is a cash shop.  I bought some gems at Halloween just to support ANET more or less.  At no point have I complained about others using the cash shop either.  Please don't misconstrue what I'm saying here.  What I'm saying is that you should just have fun with the game (which is not hard imo) and not let some guy who did buy gems for gold and sexy gear bother you. Please read posts before quoting out of context and misrepresenting opinions.  

Oh so it must be you discouraging others from using the cash shop that threw me off.  If it is not for the cash shop, then you won't be supporting ArenaNet to play this game, which you claim to enjoy, without sub.

I don't like some of the push towards the cash shop too, but I accept that as a reality of playing a F2P game.

Edited by Daesu, 03 December 2012 - 05:22 AM.


#192 Jetjordan

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:45 AM

View PostDaesu, on 03 December 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

Oh so it must be you discouraging others from using the cash shop that threw me off.  If it is not for the cash shop, then you won't be supporting ArenaNet to play this game, which you claim to enjoy, without sub.

I don't like some of the push towards the cash shop too, but I accept that as a reality of playing a F2P game.

geez.... I just said that it would cost a lot of real life money to really get "ahead" in the game via the cash shop.  Stop trying to drum up an argument between us that doesn't exist.  I'm fairly sure we are taking a similar stance on this.

#193 Robsy128

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:43 AM

Yes, without paying $15 a month you're never going to have fun in an MMO.
This makes perfect sense.
Final summation: people like throwing money away. Also, the cash shop is here to stay.

Hey, did I just make a rhyme?

#194 Bloodtau

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 11:20 AM

View Postpcpsong, on 03 December 2012 - 01:38 AM, said:

Rift is awful bland re-skin of WoW with worse game mechanics

*cough* guild wars 2 *cough*

#195 raspberry jam

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:36 PM

View PostRobsy128, on 30 November 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

Or you can just play the game and still find those items without even thinking about gems whatsoever. The only things that are cash shop only are character slots, banks slots and cosmetic items. All of these are completely optional additions. There's nothing there forcing you to buy them. I would agree if you only had 1 character slot or 1 bank tab, but the truth is, the base game is just fine on its own. It's not like LOTRO where they deliberately lock out content so that you're forced to buy it.
Or you could want these items right now as opposed to in two years from now and therefore you hand over $20 or whatever.

#196 Robsy128

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 02:42 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 03 December 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

Or you could want these items right now as opposed to in two years from now and therefore you hand over $20 or whatever.

Two years? Doubt it. A month of regular play? Much more likely. A few days of pure dungeon grinding? Even more likely.
People never had a problem with the GW1 cash shop offering character slots, etc. In fact, GW2 has improved upon that cash shop because there was no way to gain those add-ons without a credit card. At least people have a chance of getting the items without paying any more money than the original box price.

#197 AarodCutshot

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 02:44 PM

you could give them 15 month if it makes you feel better im sure they will accept it. Hold out both hands from side to side. Want in one hand. And fill one up with umm dirt and see which one fills up faster. lol

Edited by AarodCutshot, 03 December 2012 - 02:46 PM.


#198 raspberry jam

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 03:10 PM

View PostRobsy128, on 03 December 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

Two years? Doubt it. A month of regular play? Much more likely. A few days of pure dungeon grinding? Even more likely.
People never had a problem with the GW1 cash shop offering character slots, etc. In fact, GW2 has improved upon that cash shop because there was no way to gain those add-ons without a credit card. At least people have a chance of getting the items without paying any more money than the original box price.
Don't make me laugh. What's the current gold-to-gem price? How long would it take to earn up to a character slot?

Also, why would anyone grind dungeon for a few days when you can just buy the reward?

Edited by raspberry jam, 03 December 2012 - 03:10 PM.


#199 Robsy128

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 03:33 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 03 December 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

Don't make me laugh. What's the current gold-to-gem price? How long would it take to earn up to a character slot?
Also, why would anyone grind dungeon for a few days when you can just buy the reward?


Going by GW2spidy.com:
100 gems sells for 1 g 29 s 80 c .
100 gems costs 1 g 79 s 65 c  to buy.
100 gems costs 1.25 USD to buy.
1 g  costs 0.96 USD to buy through gems.

You would need 14 gold, 37 silver, 20 copper for a character slot.
Considering I personally made a gold an hour, 14 hours for a character slot really isn't bad at all. That's a week's worth of regular play (2 hours a day, 7 days a week). That's not even counting the easy profit you can make through the trading post or selling anything you come across.
Not everyone is an adult. Not everyone has the ability to pay for the items. Sometimes people prefer to earn cash shop rewards through playing the game. At the current rate, I don't see that as a problem at all.

Edited by Robsy128, 03 December 2012 - 03:36 PM.


#200 raspberry jam

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 03:37 PM

View PostRobsy128, on 03 December 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

Going by GW2spidy.com:
100 gems sells for 1 g 29 s 80 c .
100 gems costs 1 g 79 s 65 c  to buy.
100 gems costs 1.25 USD to buy.
1 g  costs 0.96 USD to buy through gems.

You would need 14 gold, 37 silver, 20 copper for a character slot.
Considering I personally made a gold an hour, 14 hours for a character slot really isn't bad at all. That's a week's worth of regular play (2 hours a day, 7 days a week).
Not everyone is an adult. Not everyone has the ability to pay for the items. Sometimes people prefer to earn cash shop rewards through playing the game. At the current rate, I don't see that as a problem at all.

And if you don't want to wait a week?

Not everyone is an adult, but so what? I'm pretty sure that those who are adults can pay for themselves, and that those who are not can ask their mommy for the credit card. It's how it usually works.

Also, why would anyone grind dungeon for a few days when you can just buy the reward?

Edited by raspberry jam, 03 December 2012 - 03:37 PM.


#201 Sinful01

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 03:47 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 03 December 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

Don't make me laugh. What's the current gold-to-gem price? How long would it take to earn up to a character slot?

Also, why would anyone grind dungeon for a few days when you can just buy the reward?

Meh .. you're both discussing with/at the wrong person, with too general terminology. (Using "anyone" just invites people to toss out some random anecdote or "well I didn't!")

Robsy <3's GW2 very much, and is having lots and lots of fun.  To Robsy, farming FotM repeatedly is fun and doesn't see GW2 as a bad grind, as far as I can tell. ... so slowly amassing the cash to buy character slots, or bank space isn't torture.  Robsy isn't the main target market of the gem-to-gold portion of the cash shop.  The cosmetic portion?  For sure.  Getting people having fun to toss a few bucks in for something goofy like a hat, or box-o-fun or whatever is bonus income ANet will happily take.

Others out there hate grind, and/or dislike FotM or dungeons or whatever.  They'll never spend a cent in the cash shop and probably think ANet is out to eat their babies.  They're not the main target of the cash shop either, and frankly ANet would probably be happy if they just left.

Everyone else falls in the middle.
Some of them'll drop the money to rush getting their exotics, or buy out part of the Legendary grind. They're paying to speed up the treadmill, make the pain go away ... to allow them to get back to playing in an enjoyable fashion. Silly them though, because it can come back later.  That is ok though, they can just buy more gems.



Now ... personally, I assumed the GW2 cash shop was going to operate, primarily, based on the former bolded portion.  It was going to be filled with neat things no one needed, but people would happily buy the stuff because they added 'fun' value to the game.  Instead, I see a lack of 'fun' or cosmetically appealing things; there are very few items in the cash shop worth buying "just because". To me, it looks like they've moved toward the latter bolded portion.  They can easily restrict supply and influence demand for anything they choose, creating an artificial bottleneck for any item in the game that can be most easily fixed by typing in your credit card information.

Edited by Sinful01, 03 December 2012 - 03:54 PM.


#202 Alleji

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 03:48 PM

View PostRickter, on 03 December 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

its $30 a month - thats a tank of gas
Man that's some cheap gas. Or do you drive a motorcycle? :D

Edited by Alleji, 03 December 2012 - 03:49 PM.


#203 witteker

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 03:57 PM

Subscription vs. Free.  Let's look at WoW's subscription.  They charge like $16.50 a month (including tax).  Over a year, it's $200.  After 5 years, it's a $1000.  Most players play over 5 years.  You can get this for free in GW2. There is no comparison.

#204 witteker

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:59 PM

And...............
Money is easy to make in this game.  In fact, you don't really need that much money.  You could get gems to speed things up in this game, but that's about it.  You could get more character slots, but really..... 5 is plenty for many, many years for most people.  Bag space?  Just get bigger bags.  Really............. you don't need to spend real money in this game.

So, basically it's free, unless you want to speed things up or get a perk or a skin or something like that.  You are basically getting $1000 free.

#205 MazingerZ

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:07 PM

View PostSinful01, on 03 December 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

Now ... personally, I assumed the GW2 cash shop was going to operate, primarily, based on the former bolded portion.  It was going to be filled with neat things no one needed, but people would happily buy the stuff because they added 'fun' value to the game.  Instead, I see a lack of 'fun' or cosmetically appealing things; there are very few items in the cash shop worth buying "just because". To me, it looks like they've moved toward the latter bolded portion.  They can easily restrict supply and influence demand for anything they choose, creating an artificial bottleneck for any item in the game that can be most easily fixed by typing in your credit card information.

Pretty much this, and one of the reasons they don't get a dime for me, even if they put in cosmetic fun stuff.  I refuse to in any way, shape or form support them while they have cash->gems->gold conversion.  All it does is allow them to manipulate currency at their benefit.  When profits need a boost?  Manipulate the economy.

View Postwitteker, on 03 December 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

Subscription vs. Free.  Let's look at WoW's subscription.  They charge like $16.50 a month (including tax).  Over a year, it's $200.  After 5 years, it's a $1000.  Most players play over 5 years.  You can get this for free in GW2. There is no comparison.

You've boiled it down to personal cost and pass right over the deeper conversation, which is what the developing company has to do to make a profit.  WoW's model is a gear treadmill, pushing out content with a relative grind in order to obtain the best in slot gear.  They draw it out for as long as they can, to keep you paying month to month.  Ultimately, though, the rewards come down to effort.  Everyone is paying the same amount of money month to month, and the rewards you get are a mix of RNG and level of effort.

ArenaNet's current model is to manipulate the economy.  Introduce better gear with a grind built in.  There is no monthly subscription fee, but the economy is structured to hen peck you to death with fees, and offering "conveniences" to bypass those fees via the cash shop.  Transportation fees.  (WoW has actually gone to great lengths to make it easy to get anywhere.  Heck, even the Dungeon Finder teleports you.)  This is why GW2 will never have a dungeon finder.  Traveling is gold sink, and teleporting you to your group bypasses the cost.  A dungeon that doesn't offer you a repair station without losing progress, but lets you use repair canisters you buy in the cash shop.  Converting  your RL money directly into gold to afford the material cost of crafting the best-in-slot gear.

The game is structured to put a strain on your in-game coin purse and tempt you in little ways to open your wallet.

Ultimately, it's not just a dollar value, but how you want the business you are giving your money to, to operate.  Not only that, but which model you want to succeed, because whichever model is proven successful is what others will try to imitate.  Rewarding ArenaNet for its Korean MMO market practices is only inviting more Korean-style grinding MMO styles to crop up in Western MMO development.

Why do you think Zynga, the blight of gaming, was so successful?  Sure, it wasn't a sustainable model, but it hurt the market with its practices.

Edited by MazingerZ, 03 December 2012 - 05:08 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#206 Robsy128

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:32 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 03 December 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

And if you don't want to wait a week?

Not everyone is an adult, but so what? I'm pretty sure that those who are adults can pay for themselves, and that those who are not can ask their mommy for the credit card. It's how it usually works.

Also, why would anyone grind dungeon for a few days when you can just buy the reward?

If you don't want to wait a week, then yes, you can just buy the item from the in-game gem store. The only thing you're buying is time - you're not buying a statistical advantage over any other player in the game.

As I said, some people may like to grind the dungeon instead of buying the reward. Maybe they don't want to spend their money on Guild Wars 2, or maybe they actually like the grind. Maybe they like the content so much, they want to repeat it a few times. Whatever their reason - they have a choice to earn the same reward for gameplay rather than spending their real life money in-game.
Also, not everyone can afford or pay for some things. Personally, I was never allowed to use my parents' cards for anything online. I could only play the game. I'm sure there were and still are many other people in the same situation, and I'm glad Arenanet allowed those same people to earn the things in the gem store through simply playing the game.

#207 MazingerZ

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:43 PM

View PostRobsy128, on 03 December 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

Maybe they don't want to spend their money on Guild Wars 2.

ArenaNet has no place for these people then.  No, seriously.  The best they can hope for is for these people to bring friends with looser wallets.  Beyond that, they are a resource drain and the only thing they are good for is to make the game appear less empty and toil away in the grind caves, putting up rare materials that others will pay cash->gold to purchase.

Edited by MazingerZ, 03 December 2012 - 05:45 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#208 Robsy128

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:46 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 03 December 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

ArenaNet has no place for these people then.  No, seriously.  The best they can hope for is for these people to bring friends with looser wallets.  Beyond that, they are a resource drain and the only thing they are good for is to make the game appear less empty and toil away in the grind caves, putting up rare materials that others will pay cash->gold to purchase.

If they don't spend their money on Guild Wars 2, then they're not going to be playing the game in the first place ;)

#209 witteker

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:50 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 03 December 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

You've boiled it down to personal cost and pass right over the deeper conversation, which is what the developing company has to do to make a profit.  WoW's model is a gear treadmill, pushing out content with a relative grind in order to obtain the best in slot gear.  They draw it out for as long as they can, to keep you paying month to month.  Ultimately, though, the rewards come down to effort.  Everyone is paying the same amount of money month to month, and the rewards you get are a mix of RNG and level of effort.

ArenaNet's current model is to manipulate the economy.  Introduce better gear with a grind built in.  There is no monthly subscription fee, but the economy is structured to hen peck you to death with fees, and offering "conveniences" to bypass those fees via the cash shop.  Transportation fees.  (WoW has actually gone to great lengths to make it easy to get anywhere.  Heck, even the Dungeon Finder teleports you.)  This is why GW2 will never have a dungeon finder.  Traveling is gold sink, and teleporting you to your group bypasses the cost.  A dungeon that doesn't offer you a repair station without losing progress, but lets you use repair canisters you buy in the cash shop.  Converting  your RL money directly into gold to afford the material cost of crafting the best-in-slot gear.

The game is structured to put a strain on your in-game coin purse and tempt you in little ways to open your wallet.

Ultimately, it's not just a dollar value, but how you want the business you are giving your money to, to operate.  Not only that, but which model you want to succeed, because whichever model is proven successful is what others will try to imitate.  Rewarding ArenaNet for its Korean MMO market practices is only inviting more Korean-style grinding MMO styles to crop up in Western MMO development.

Why do you think Zynga, the blight of gaming, was so successful?  Sure, it wasn't a sustainable model, but it hurt the market with its practices.

WoW's system of making everything easy, including travel, sucks.  So, everyone is hurdled around Dalaran (or the next place of gathering) and q up for dungeon finder.  They don't need to travel.  Everyone has gazillion gold because gold is so easy to get.  Money has no value.  Everyone has epic gear.  Everyone has everything, at a price, real life money.  Why not just do everything as a finder and put a city in?  No need to travel, no need to do anything.  Jus sit there and do everything at a push of a button.  There is no danger of ever dying.  A group can go through a dungeon without thinking.  Just bash buttons and you're done.  The problem is, it's costing you real life money to sit around and have everything done for you.

#210 MazingerZ

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:54 PM

View Postwitteker, on 03 December 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

WoW's system of making everything easy, including travel, sucks.  So, everyone is hurdled around Dalaran (or the next place of gathering) and q up for dungeon finder.  They don't need to travel.  Everyone has gazillion gold because gold is so easy to get.  Money has no value.  Everyone has epic gear.  Everyone has everything, at a price, real life money.  Why not just do everything as a finder and put a city in?  No need to travel, no need to do anything.  Jus sit there and do everything at a push of a button.  There is no danger of ever dying.  A group can go through a dungeon without thinking.  Just bash buttons and you're done.  The problem is, it's costing you real life money to sit around and have everything done for you.

And yet, WoW's model has proven imminently more successful than what ArenaNet is doing.  Time will tell in the end, but there is plenty of speculation that ArenaNet's going down the path of many other "good idea, poor implementations" like WAR and so forth.

Ultimately the issue with another sub game is that the people in WoW are already invested in WoW.  Asking them to pay 15 bucks for the pleasure of starting from scratch for a buggy, first release MMO when there's something more mature, still active and developing is insane.  That is the only reason another game cannot take the world by storm with a subscription and the clones asking for a fee fail.

Edited by MazingerZ, 03 December 2012 - 05:59 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"




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