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After playing GW2, I decided I'd prefer a sub fee over any cash shop


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#211 witteker

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:16 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 03 December 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

And yet, WoW's model has proven imminently more successful than what ArenaNet is doing.  Time will tell in the end, but there is plenty of speculation that ArenaNet's going down the path of many other "good idea, poor implementations" like WAR and so forth.

Ultimately the issue with another sub game is that the people in WoW are already invested in WoW.  Asking them to pay 15 bucks for the pleasure of starting from scratch for a buggy, first release MMO when there's something more mature, still active and developing is insane.  That is the only reason another game cannot take the world by storm with a subscription and the clones asking for a fee fail.

Exactly.  And it's because $15 a month doesn't look like a lot of money for the entertainment they think they're getting.  GW2 is not charging you any of that money though, and because of that, they are putting in more gold sinks.  But those gold sinks are not game breaking or takes away from enjoying the game.  It is just the perceived notion that they take away from player experience.  But the fact is, it doesn't take away from their experience.  They just think it does, because basically we're spoiled to get everything so easily.  Those spoiled kids can purchase as many gems as they need.  I prefer the gold sinks, even if they were to charge us a monthly subscription.

Why do you want GW2 to be successful like WoW?  It's better that it stay in its nitche space and stay free forever.

#212 MazingerZ

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:28 PM

View Postwitteker, on 03 December 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

Exactly.  And it's because $15 a month doesn't look like a lot of money for the entertainment they think they're getting.  GW2 is not charging you any of that money though, and because of that, they are putting in more gold sinks.  But those gold sinks are not game breaking or takes away from enjoying the game.  It is just the perceived notion that they take away from player experience.  But the fact is, it doesn't take away from their experience.  They just think it does, because basically we're spoiled to get everything so easily.  Those spoiled kids can purchase as many gems as they need.  I prefer the gold sinks, even if they were to charge us a monthly subscription.

Why do you want GW2 to be successful like WoW?  It's better that it stay in its nitche space and stay free forever.

The issue isn't the ease.  It's the thought process that ArenaNet or any developer with a cash->gold option goes through when putting out their business model.  The only reason WoW ever has to manipulate drop rates or pricing is to adjust the length of a grind.  Their money comes from 15 bucks a month, and modulating the grind in response to player expectations is the issue.

ArenaNet's model is a little more complex.  If people finish things too early, they'll leave and that is lost revenue.  So they added a carrot.  But they can also generate revenue by coercing people to go to the cash shop.  This isn't about whether or not an individual chooses, for whatever reason, to use the cash shop.  It is about the predatory practices of a company that will not say 'The reason this costs 250 ectos is because we want some of you to pay us to avoid that hassle.'

It's like any business that claims to operate at a cheaper cost, but that's because they don't actively advertise the way they're making up for that lost revenue.  Business A is at the average industry cost and comes with all the features and small conveniences that are practically a standard for every other business in the industry.  (At which point it largely comes down to who executes it better)  Business B claims to be less expensive.  But to make the operating up, instead of all the features and small conveniences included, you actually have to pay for those.

ArenaNet is running its game the same way I ran Theme Park.  Free sodas, 10 dollar bathrooms.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#213 witteker

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:33 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 03 December 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

The issue isn't the ease.  It's the thought process that ArenaNet or any developer with a cash->gold option goes through when putting out their business model.  The only reason WoW ever has to manipulate drop rates or pricing is to adjust the length of a grind.  Their money comes from 15 bucks a month, and modulating the grind in response to player expectations is the issue.

ArenaNet's model is a little more complex.  If people finish things too early, they'll leave and that is lost revenue.  So they added a carrot.  But they can also generate revenue by coercing people to go to the cash shop.  This isn't about whether or not an individual chooses, for whatever reason, to use the cash shop.  It is about the predatory practices of a company that will not say 'The reason this costs 250 ectos is because we want some of you to pay us to avoid that hassle.'

It's like any business that claims to operate at a cheaper cost, but that's because they don't actively advertise the way they're making up for that lost revenue.  Business A is at the average industry cost and comes with all the features and small conveniences that are practically a standard for every other business in the industry.  (At which point it largely comes down to who executes it better)  Business B claims to be less expensive.  But to make the operating up, instead of all the features and small conveniences included, you actually have to pay for those.

ArenaNet is running its game the same way I ran Theme Park.  Free sodas, 10 dollar bathrooms.

It's free sodas and free bathrooms.  Everything is free.  It's in fact the other way around.  Everything you do in WoW costs you.  Here it's free.  They are not coercing anyone to do anything.  It's only a perceived coercing for spoiled people.

#214 ToySoldier

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:51 PM

I'll play WoW again if it became FTP.

#215 Sinful01

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:53 PM

View Postwitteker, on 03 December 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

It's free sodas and free bathrooms.  Everything is free.  It's in fact the other way around.  Everything you do in WoW costs you.  Here it's free.  They are not coercing anyone to do anything.  It's only a perceived coercing for spoiled people.

WoW: Amusement park.  You pay to get in initially (box charge), and they charge you monthly dues to use the park whenever you want, if you're there or not.  While inside, everything is "free" to use at no additional cost.  The park is designed so you can very quickly jump to each ride (LFG tools, etc) and they try and make things as painless as possible to keep you happily trudging along and paying.


GW2: Amusement park. You pay to get get in initially.  Once in, you go to the attraction you want and wait in line.  Everyone is waiting in line.  The line is very long, and slow, but if you stay in the line you'll (sooner or later) get to the attraction.  But(!) look to the left ... there is a second queue to get to the attraction, with no one in line ... you can get there NOW... except there is a dude with a credit-card swiper who requires additional money to get in the fast lane.


Either way, both models want to keep you in the park so you keep paying.  One will keep adding layers and layers of new stuff for you to do ... they want to keep you interested in the park long term, so you keep paying your monthly fee.  They throw content at you if you want it or not.

The other just wants to slow you down from consuming their content.  The want to force you to wait in line ... because forcing you to stay in line means sooner or later you'll get enticed to pay to get in the fast lane. Research shows that going this route ends up making more money.

#216 MazingerZ

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:56 PM

View Postwitteker, on 03 December 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

It's free sodas and free bathrooms.  Everything is free.  It's in fact the other way around.  Everything you do in WoW costs you.  Here it's free.  They are not coercing anyone to do anything.  It's only a perceived coercing for spoiled people.

Oh, sure, it's free, but there's a line.  Paying money gets you bumped ahead.  It saves you time.  Considering the concept that people might have better things to do with their time than to go through an artificial grind to overcome progression gating, it's not spoiled to want to bypass that.

As players stand there with their freshly forged Ascended gear, they ask, "So what do we now?"

"...Now we can play the game."
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#217 witteker

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:06 PM

View PostSinful01, on 03 December 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

WoW: Amusement park.  You pay to get in initially (box charge), and they charge you monthly dues to use the park whenever you want, if you're there or not.  While inside, everything is "free" to use at no additional cost.  The park is designed so you can very quickly jump to each ride (LFG tools, etc) and they try and make things as painless as possible to keep you happily trudging along and paying.


GW2: Amusement park. You pay to get get in initially.  Once in, you go to the attraction you want and wait in line.  Everyone is waiting in line.  The line is very long, and slow, but if you stay in the line you'll (sooner or later) get to the attraction.  But(!) look to the left ... there is a second queue to get to the attraction, with no one in line ... you can get there NOW... except there is a dude with a credit-card swiper who requires additional money to get in the fast lane.


Either way, both models want to keep you in the park so you keep paying.  One will keep adding layers and layers of new stuff for you to do ... they want to keep you interested in the park long term, so you keep paying your monthly fee.  They throw content at you if you want it or not.

The other just wants to slow you down from consuming their content.  The want to force you to wait in line ... because forcing you to stay in line means sooner or later you'll get enticed to pay to get in the fast lane. Research shows that going this route ends up making more money.

GW2: It's free to get in.  Purchase price of the game is not an entrance fee.  It's more like tax from government or something ($60).  So, you're free to enter and stand in line ($1000 worth).  You can pay for faster way to the rollercoaster, yes.  However, the line isn't that long.  But for those who want instant gratification, they can use the instant gratification line.

WoW: You pay to get in every month ($16.50 a month, $1000 over 5 years).  Then you still have to wait in line (level grind, gear grind).  You get a bigger rollercoaster though.

#218 MazingerZ

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:10 PM

View Postwitteker, on 03 December 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

GW2: It's free to get in.  Purchase price of the game is not an entrance fee.  It's more like tax from government or something ($60).  So, you're free to enter and stand in line ($1000 worth).  You can pay for faster way to the rollercoaster, yes.  However, the line isn't that long.  But for those who want instant gratification, they can use the instant gratification line.

WoW: You pay to get in every month ($16.50 a month, $1000 over 5 years).  Then you still have to wait in line (level grind, gear grind).  You get a bigger rollercoaster though.

You're missing a crucial part of the equation there, sonny boy.  In WoW, there is no one saying 'Not enough people are buying fastpass.  Start letting only three people on at a time.'  ArenaNet manipulates the game economy to drive people towards the shop.  Sure, they can't make them drink.  But they'll keep adding salt to the meals they serve.

The grind in WoW is only to ensure that people's experiences are drawn out to the next patch release.

Edited by MazingerZ, 03 December 2012 - 07:12 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#219 witteker

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:27 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 03 December 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

You're missing a crucial part of the equation there, sonny boy.  In WoW, there is no one saying 'Not enough people are buying fastpass.  Start letting only three people on at a time.'  ArenaNet manipulates the game economy to drive people towards the shop.  Sure, they can't make them drink.  But they'll keep adding salt to the meals they serve.

The grind in WoW is only to ensure that people's experiences are drawn out to the next patch release.

WoW's grind to the next patch is really what I don't like, frankly.  I don't mind Arenanet's driving people to shop, because you really, really don't have to, to enjoy the game.

#220 MazingerZ

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:33 PM

View Postwitteker, on 03 December 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

WoW's grind to the next patch is really what I don't like, frankly.  I don't mind Arenanet's driving people to shop, because you really, really don't have to, to enjoy the game.

That is subjective opinion.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#221 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:37 PM

Since the OP brought it up, I will say that after playing GW2, I will never pay a sub for a game again. GW2 proves you can make a great MMO and not have to charge monthly fees for it. This changes everything. Why should I play $50 up front and $150 per year, every year, or $200 for a lifetime subscription?

It's like paying to buy a DVD at full price and having to pay to watch it every month you want to watch it.

When I first started playing MMOs, it all made sense. You pay for internet access. You pay for online games. Now, meh... I'd rather not pay at all, if I don't have to. Especially if the quality of the games is going to be this good.

I don't mind a cash shop driven game. It's not hurting me. I still play at a very high level in PvP without spending a dime. If others want to spend super tons of globs of stinking cash to be a digital superdude, let them. Meanwhile, they're paying for my game.

#222 Gremlin

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:38 PM

Is it my natural paranoia kicking in here, or has someone hired a load of stooges to come on the forums and say how bad this game is and how wonderful some other games are.

If so Its a great marketing ploy and I hope we have our own masters of misinformation to return the favor.

#223 alucard13mmfmj

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:33 PM

MAYBE arenanet should put things in the gem shop that people would actually buy.. instead of altering the game to push people towards buying things they dont want from cash shop.

Like maybe more armor skins. This game is all about aesthetics (apart from skills), but they should always add more variety and looks with armor skins. I wouldn't mine buying a cool skin for 800 gems that'll make my character look less like a hobo. Although, I wouldn't spend gems on RNG thru chests to get them. No way.

#224 FreeBooteR

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:37 PM

I'm satisfied with Anet's 'buy to play' model. It allows me to pay for the game once and come and go as i please. I have the option to buy items, but am not compelled to. I have the option to pay for expansions as well, but if i don't the game i originally bought is still there and i have lost no value to my purchase. Anet realises that if they want my loyalty and money, they must do things to actually earn them.

I don't like the subscription model because those developers feel they are entitled to my money, and if i am not happy with the direction of the game, my only choice is to cancel the subscription and lose accesss to the game i paid for. Complete loss of value on my purchase as well as all the effort i spent in the game developing my character(s). The sub fee also limits my ability to play other games, since i feel compelled to keep playing, or lose the value i paid in sub fees. Also, i may be funding content development i despise with my sub fee, and once again my influence extends only to cancel the sub. The relationship between the developer and myself is too one sided.

I also despise the 'free to play' model and hate it when people associate 'buy to play' with 'free to play'. The only thing free in 'free to play' is usually the client. After logging in all i can look forward to is being squeazed for cash in some arbitrary manner, my character and progress crippled otherwise. The model seems to care less about my enjoyment, and more about holding me up by the ankles and shaking me until all my hard earned money falls into their greedy fingers.

So all in all, i think the buy to play model gives me the most influence over the developer, and the developer has the greatest motivation to ensure i am enjoying their game. I no longer have any subscription to any MMO and will never have one again. It isn't perfect, but i think it's the best pay model out there today. Your mileage may vary.

#225 Anzuri

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:47 AM

View PostPinCushion, on 29 November 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

I agree, though...you could just voluntarily pay them $15/month for gems and convert them to gold.

I currently just give them $10/month because farming stuff is boring.  I don't play these games to grind gold, and since my job involves market/pricing work I really don't feel like coming home to do more of it in a game.  I sell my gems, take my 6-10g (depending on the day), and enjoy all the extra time I just bought to WvW or whatever.

I figure in 3-6 months I'll have my legendary, if I decide to craft it, without having to grind my face off for all the T6 mats.  Now, I'll have PAID A-Net about $60 bucks for this convenience.  In my opinion, it's worth it.

Edit: I don't mind this arrangement because it's a $5/mo savings over my other favorite MMO, and it's completely under my control when and if it happens.  I don't expect a good product to be free, but I enjoy the fact that I can skip as many months as I want without any loss of features or function.

I like this and might have to borrow your system :). I too hate the grind and do not want to do it in a game.

OP I like your post and agree to your points but looking at it in terms of Anet's perspective (and without looking at their figures) I think they make much more money by doing it this way (back end) instead of the traditional front end model.

It does mean that some people will pay $0 to play the game after their initial outlay to buy it. But it also means that people (more that enough for them to earn a profit or the game will die) will pay much more than the $15 per month. You will surely have people paying $20-$100 per month for the convenience depending on their income and disposable income etc. Because it is all electronic nowadays people don't feel it as much when they charge $50 to their credit or debit cards.

For the people that pay $0 there will be the enticement of paid content updates which they have said they will do.

#226 Desild

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:59 AM

View Postwitteker, on 03 December 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

Yep, you make complete sense and a logical argument, lol

Says the guy with no knowledge of memetic culture and attempts to make a garbled analogy, only to end up butchering it.

Why not say that both MMOs are poor excuse of theme parks. Both charge you a life-time fee to enter the park. One charges you extra for a monthly pass, the other doesn't. Neither park charges you afterwards to enjoy the multiple rides, but one other park has a special gift shops that use game tickets as currency, which you can obtain by participating in a slew of special rides and trading money for them or winning at games- Err...

Nevermind, I suck at analogies too. Can't brain, I have the dumb.

Edited by Desild, 04 December 2012 - 02:07 AM.


#227 Arewn

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:09 AM

View PostMazingerZ, on 03 December 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

The grind in WoW is only to ensure that people's experiences are drawn out to the next patch release.
Actually.... it's a game with a monthly sub fee, they draw it out and lead you by the nose with tidbits of content for months on end because it means you pay them each month.
I don't think cynisism in general is bad, but selective cynicism certainly is.

#228 dudewalker

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:54 AM

View PostMazingerZ, on 03 December 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

Pretty much this, and one of the reasons they don't get a dime for me, even if they put in cosmetic fun stuff.  I refuse to in any way, shape or form support them while they have cash->gems->gold conversion.  All it does is allow them to manipulate currency at their benefit.  When profits need a boost?  Manipulate the economy.



You've boiled it down to personal cost and pass right over the deeper conversation, which is what the developing company has to do to make a profit.  WoW's model is a gear treadmill, pushing out content with a relative grind in order to obtain the best in slot gear.  They draw it out for as long as they can, to keep you paying month to month.  Ultimately, though, the rewards come down to effort.  Everyone is paying the same amount of money month to month, and the rewards you get are a mix of RNG and level of effort.

ArenaNet's current model is to manipulate the economy.  Introduce better gear with a grind built in.  There is no monthly subscription fee, but the economy is structured to hen peck you to death with fees, and offering "conveniences" to bypass those fees via the cash shop.  Transportation fees.  (WoW has actually gone to great lengths to make it easy to get anywhere.  Heck, even the Dungeon Finder teleports you.)  This is why GW2 will never have a dungeon finder.  Traveling is gold sink, and teleporting you to your group bypasses the cost.  A dungeon that doesn't offer you a repair station without losing progress, but lets you use repair canisters you buy in the cash shop.  Converting  your RL money directly into gold to afford the material cost of crafting the best-in-slot gear.

The game is structured to put a strain on your in-game coin purse and tempt you in little ways to open your wallet.

Ultimately, it's not just a dollar value, but how you want the business you are giving your money to, to operate.  Not only that, but which model you want to succeed, because whichever model is proven successful is what others will try to imitate.  Rewarding ArenaNet for its Korean MMO market practices is only inviting more Korean-style grinding MMO styles to crop up in Western MMO development.

Why do you think Zynga, the blight of gaming, was so successful?  Sure, it wasn't a sustainable model, but it hurt the market with its practices.

MazingerZ - can i just say i love your posts.  all of them.  a voice of reason...very refreshing.

you state they way things actually are pretty clearly and objectively.  how are people not getting this?

#229 Ninja Ataris

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:50 AM

I find it a bit exaggerative to say the entire point of the game is to squeeze money out of your wallet.

Sure, of course, they want your money, but first of all they want you to actually play the game. As much as possible. Hopefully, people will do that as long as it's entertaining and stop as soon as it's not. But then, some people are stupid.

Personally, I don't worry. I enjoy GW2 a ton and I couldn't imagine going back to monthly subscriptions with my current time schedule. It's just not worth the cost. Maybe if they cut it to half, but we're not going to see that anytime soon.

#230 Budzasty

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:44 AM

View Postdudewalker, on 04 December 2012 - 06:54 AM, said:

MazingerZ - can i just say i love your posts.  all of them.  a voice of reason...very refreshing.

you state they way things actually are pretty clearly and objectively.  how are people not getting this?

lol, we can see that you "liked" every post of his. I agree that he is pretty clear but objective? Really? :rolleyes:

Anyways lots of captain obvious posts about cash shop revenue model. Yes there are/will be tons of convenience items, cosmetics and such. They are also selling gold, which would be sold anyways by gold farmers and bought by same people who buy it now. Instead money goes to ANet and we get content, which can be free if you have a bit of patience. I like that as I can decide to pay or not.

But yeah GW2 is cash shop based game, in it's light version. It was well known about it from early betas. It will have all flaws this revenue model comes with. It entirely up to a person to judge whether he finds it obstructive enough to play or not. I mean some people found WoW's sparkling pony and pets unacceptable and designing game around cash shop.

With all doom and gloom behind some posts, Karka events had so many people playing, that servers were overloaded and game was lagging badly. Will it reach magical WoW numbers? Nope, WoW was one time phenomenon, which needs special time and circumstances to happen again. Using it as reference point shows zero knowledge about current MMO market.

Personally I don't see any reason to use GW2 cash shop if you have some patience and plan to play this game long term.

#231 raspberry jam

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:52 AM

View PostRobsy128, on 03 December 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

If you don't want to wait a week, then yes, you can just buy the item from the in-game gem store. The only thing you're buying is time - you're not buying a statistical advantage over any other player in the game.

As I said, some people may like to grind the dungeon instead of buying the reward. Maybe they don't want to spend their money on Guild Wars 2, or maybe they actually like the grind. Maybe they like the content so much, they want to repeat it a few times. Whatever their reason - they have a choice to earn the same reward for gameplay rather than spending their real life money in-game.
Also, not everyone can afford or pay for some things. Personally, I was never allowed to use my parents' cards for anything online. I could only play the game. I'm sure there were and still are many other people in the same situation, and I'm glad Arenanet allowed those same people to earn the things in the gem store through simply playing the game.
But actually you are getting a whole new character for doing nothing. That is quite an advantage over someone who has to dedicate a week or more to getting the same thing.

If someone likes the content, why are they not repeating it once they no longer get rewarded for it? Because most people don't.

#232 Robsy128

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:06 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 04 December 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

But actually you are getting a whole new character for doing nothing. That is quite an advantage over someone who has to dedicate a week or more to getting the same thing.

If someone likes the content, why are they not repeating it once they no longer get rewarded for it? Because most people don't.

It's only an advantage regarding time, as I said before. It's all completely optional. Nobody's forcing you to buy a character slot from the gem store. Nobody's even forcing you to get a new character slot.

Most people don't repeat content unless they are getting rewarded for it. Some people do, simply because they like the content so much. I re-played Heavy Rain on the Playstation 3 recently. Did it give me anything for it? No. I just did it because it was fun. In Guild Wars 2, people still get rewarded for doing the same content with money (exp is fairly useless at level 80 unless you want to spend your skill points on something, and dungeon tokens are only useful if you actually want that armour).

#233 Phoenix Arising

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:27 PM

View PostAlleji, on 29 November 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:



- Low-scaling rewards. A lvl 10 completing an event will earn about 0.5 silver. A lvl 80 gets 1.5 silver. Compare to a lvl 10 quest in WoW rewarding 3.5 silver and lvl 60 in vanilla about 50 silver (it varied and I can't remember exactly - been a long time). A maxed character in GW2 earns 3x more for doing basic activities than a low lvl character, whereas a maxed character in WoW made 15x more.

- High taxes everywhere. To continue the above example, a waypoint to a nearby place at lvl 10 costs 10 copper. A waypoint at lvl 80 costs 1.5 silver. In other words, a 15x increase, when rewards increase only 1.5x. WoW doesn't have waypoints, but flight paths don't scale with level at all, just with distance (and ones in expansion areas are more expensive, but we're talking no expansions here). Trading post tax is also quite high at 15%, compared to WoW's 5% tax off the profits + variable listing fee, which almost never came close to 10%.


All your arguments are invalid because these 2 points are not valid.

1) I farm Southsun Cove on a Level 80 Mesmer with Rare Explorer armor stats and no other magic find stuff for 70 silver in 30mins.
2) I farm 7 silver on my Level 10 newly created Ranger with shit armor/weapons in 30mins.

Conclusion: It is definitely easier to farm gold on a level 80 than a Level 10 in the same amount of time.
In addition, doing an Ascalonian Catacombs Explorer Dungeon ANY path, will net me MINIMUM 80 Silver per run.
That is to say 80 SILVER and 60-69 Ascalonian Tears in 30 mins.
Use 1 Omnomberry Bar. Spider Drops 14 silver, Kholer drops 14 silver, Final Boss 21 Silver, End 26 Silver. 2-3 Bags of Gold = 6-9 Silver. This is NOT including selling junk loot and the occasional lucky rare.

3) How much do you know about Economics? Without a Tax Rate, the economy of GW2 will spiral out of control due to gold being earned easily. Everything worth something, such as Lodestones, Ectos whatever, will skyrocket in price because there is NO reliable gold sink.
Sure its possible to use the mail function to sell/buy stuff from others, but theres the risk you take, you only do so with close friends or guildmates. Thats the whole point. If everyone could trade with no risk, then there wont be a gold sink. FURTHERMORE, map chat will be full of spam offers.

4) It is surprising that you, a person who bothered to check out Ecto drop rate, did not bother to check that the entire transaction fee of the Trading Post is NOT 15%, but 10%, 5% listing fee and 5% sales fee.

#234 Bryant Again

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:15 PM

View PostRobsy128, on 04 December 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

It's only an advantage regarding time, as I said before. It's all completely optional. Nobody's forcing you to buy a character slot from the gem store. Nobody's even forcing you to get a new character slot.

It's kind of strange that they'd include the option, though, no? It seems like the only reason you'd want that is if you're finding the current progression tedious and boring, and if that's the case I'd like to see the fix in the form of a fixed progression, not a means to bypass it. Likewise, if the content is good, why allow players the option to ignore it?

#235 raspberry jam

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:18 PM

View PostRobsy128, on 04 December 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

It's only an advantage regarding time, as I said before. It's all completely optional. Nobody's forcing you to buy a character slot from the gem store. Nobody's even forcing you to get a new character slot.

Most people don't repeat content unless they are getting rewarded for it. Some people do, simply because they like the content so much. I re-played Heavy Rain on the Playstation 3 recently. Did it give me anything for it? No. I just did it because it was fun. In Guild Wars 2, people still get rewarded for doing the same content with money (exp is fairly useless at level 80 unless you want to spend your skill points on something, and dungeon tokens are only useful if you actually want that armour).
And advantages regarding time is not something people pay for?

Anyway let me get this straight. People replay good games (like Heavy Rain in your case) because it is fun, but they don't repeat GW2 content unless they are getting rewarded because it is...? Fun? But they replayed stuff for no reward when it was fun!

#236 Gremlin

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:31 PM

View Postalucard13mmfmj, on 03 December 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

MAYBE arenanet should put things in the gem shop that people would actually buy.. instead of altering the game to push people towards buying things they dont want from cash shop.

Like maybe more armor skins. This game is all about aesthetics (apart from skills), but they should always add more variety and looks with armor skins. I wouldn't mine buying a cool skin for 800 gems that'll make my character look less like a hobo. Although, I wouldn't spend gems on RNG thru chests to get them. No way.


Couldnt agree more.
There are things in the shop that you might need to buy. Character slots storage etc.

Things that I would guess comparatively few players are likely to buy.

There is nothing that I would actually want to buy.
Selling goods that appeal to the greatest number of players would seem to be a way to get money.

#237 Draugadan

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:35 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 03 December 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

ArenaNet is running its game the same way I ran Theme Park.  Free sodas, 10 dollar bathrooms.

Which is precisely why we should all piss on the grass.

#238 Robsy128

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:47 PM

View PostBryant Again, on 04 December 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

It's kind of strange that they'd include the option, though, no? It seems like the only reason you'd want that is if you're finding the current progression tedious and boring, and if that's the case I'd like to see the fix in the form of a fixed progression, not a means to bypass it. Likewise, if the content is good, why allow players the option to ignore it?

It is a bit weird, yeah. I don't know why they added it, but I just accept that it's another option and as long as it doesn't interfere with my time in-game then I'm not bothered about it whatsoever :)

Some people like levelling up in PvE, so they have that option to do so.
Some people like levelling up in WvW, so they have that option to do so.
I guess you could say that this is the option for people who don't want to level up?

View Postraspberry jam, on 04 December 2012 - 03:18 PM, said:

And advantages regarding time is not something people pay for?

Anyway let me get this straight. People replay good games (like Heavy Rain in your case) because it is fun, but they don't repeat GW2 content unless they are getting rewarded because it is...? Fun? But they replayed stuff for no reward when it was fun!

I'm not disagreeing that point whatsoever.

Eh? I was talking about two different types of people. If you like the content in Guild Wars 2 so much, and you want to do it again, you get rewarded regardless if you want the reward or not.

#239 Bryant Again

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 04:36 PM

View PostRobsy128, on 04 December 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

It is a bit weird, yeah. I don't know why they added it, but I just accept that it's another option and as long as it doesn't interfere with my time in-game then I'm not bothered about it whatsoever :)

Well, the option that I'm experiencing feels a lot to be the former: purposefully drawn-out content in an attempt to purchase gold with cash. There's a whole lot that I have to do for legendaries and ascended items that isn't fun, and I don't like the feeling of being pushed to essentially pay to play less of their game.

Technically it's true, I don't need them, but I do need to be the best I can to my friends and teammates, and anything that helps prevent me from being a liability is a necessity.

Edited by Bryant Again, 04 December 2012 - 04:36 PM.


#240 Robsy128

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 04:43 PM

View PostBryant Again, on 04 December 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

Well, the option that I'm experiencing feels a lot to be the former: purposefully drawn-out content in an attempt to purchase gold with cash. There's a whole lot that I have to do for legendaries and ascended items that isn't fun, and I don't like the feeling of being pushed to essentially pay to play less of their game.

Technically it's true, I don't need them, but I do need to be the best I can to my friends and teammates, and anything that helps prevent me from being a liability is a necessity.

Yeah, you have to grind for legendaries and ascended items. I won't get into the debate about ascended items, as that has been discussed to death (basically, they said that they'll fix it, but we'll all just have to wait and see what they do to supposedly 'fix' it). As for legendaries? I always think of them as being that item that players can grind for if they want to. If you don't want to grind for it, no worries... you can still play the content. You're not that much of a liability without a legendary. In fact, I was playing with a person last night who had a legendary sword and he was completely rubbish haha. Honestly, I revived him about 12 times in 10 minutes.




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