Jump to content

  • Curse Sites
Help
* * * - - 20 votes

After playing GW2, I decided I'd prefer a sub fee over any cash shop


  • Please log in to reply
445 replies to this topic

#421 Kymeric

Kymeric

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1979 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:43 PM

View PostToySoldier, on 12 December 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

To tie in on the topic: Both subscription and cash shop atm are generating grind-content due to a lack of development manpower/funds.  Grind is the only way for a limited team to deal with massive consumption of content.

It's too bad we aren't, as a whole, more moderate in our consumption.  We have so many games trying to satisfy people who play like it's their full time job as well as trying to satisfy people who need things to be very simple and easy because they aren't interested in overcoming challenges.  What a mess results.  What if developers could hit the people in the middle without having to worry about satisfying the extremes...

View PostDaesu, on 12 December 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

Actually that can be worked out through technology.  You have a vast variety of servers and people go play on those servers that they like best, soon the game morphs to the most popular model.  You need a system where people can see what are the popular servers and would prefer to play on servers with the most popularity.

It is competition through "survival of the fittest" for game servers.

I can't see how this would really change what we have.  Instead of content trying to grab the maximum amount of money you'd end up with content rising to the top that pleased the greatest amount of people.  Either way, you end up with stuff that takes no risks and isn't anything like what the passionate people on these forums are saying they want out of an MMORPG.

#422 Lucas Ashrock

Lucas Ashrock

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Banned
  • 1000 posts
  • Location:Asia, always around

Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:49 PM

View PostRobsy128, on 12 December 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

No, people would leave and never come back. A lot of people don't like subscription-based games and they won't pay monthly for Guild Wars 2, regardless of how awesome it would be.
Yeah well, there aren't so many alternatives for high quality f2p games around, except some pearls like Planetside2, or runescape, but well, just one of the 2 mentioned is a fantasy mmo.. any suggestion? :) At the end, picking the best, considering what gw2 is, and what could potentially be, would gather loads of players if properly managed and not a stupid clone like old good launch days.
So simple: ascended gearcrapgrind removed, on par with exotic gear + upgrade, see , same (or even not introduced at all) about weapons and armors, not that hard to re-manage this game properly. Clearly who is a f2p fanatic will shrugs. Speaking of which i doubt is the core nor the entire playerbase. If you consider they WASTED  their money for gems for a stupid halloween events (looking forward to read about more idiots spending real money for wintersday ), even spending 100 200 bucks, or use goldsellers to complete their legendary, go figure of what kind of people we are talking about :P
Look at it this way: the entire playerbase get an immediate refund of game client. And a sub. Well, this is a great marketing choice for a new management , to begin with ;) A refund of a deluxe edition should cover 6 months of a subbed management, 1 year even, depends on how they wants to manage the disappointed playerbase. Example: who got a refund, is allowed to pay with the same amount 1 year subbed, of a fresh new superb content and management. Now tell me if all of us will not put a sign now and accept the deal

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 12 December 2012 - 05:03 PM.


#423 Daesu

Daesu

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1344 posts
  • Guild Tag:[NPO]
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:07 PM

View PostKymeric, on 12 December 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

I can't see how this would really change what we have.  Instead of content trying to grab the maximum amount of money you'd end up with content rising to the top that pleased the greatest amount of people.  Either way, you end up with stuff that takes no risks and isn't anything like what the passionate people on these forums are saying they want out of an MMORPG.

It is kind of like youtube where people vote for their best channels.  I don't see why user-generated content should lack creativity or takes no risk, just look at UGCs on youtube, would you say that all of them lack creativity?

My chief concern with such a design is the lack of professional content instead (e.g. graphics).  More just competing servers with different content, we also need a form of co-operation between different servers and authors to link the best kind of content between them.

Edited by Daesu, 12 December 2012 - 05:11 PM.


#424 Lucas Ashrock

Lucas Ashrock

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Banned
  • 1000 posts
  • Location:Asia, always around

Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:08 PM

And some tests ;)

#425 Daesu

Daesu

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1344 posts
  • Guild Tag:[NPO]
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:15 PM

View PostLucas Ashrock, on 12 December 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

And some tests ;)

Yeah it is like publishing the GW2 code base to the internet as an analogy, get people around the world who are interested to morph the game to go ahead with it.  Then people would vote on game elements like game play, graphics, etc. and link the best game elements with the best game elements(based on popularity).  One technical challenge would be to preserve consistent interfaces between game elements so they can link with one another.  I call this the competition-cooperation networking. ;)

Edited by Daesu, 12 December 2012 - 05:17 PM.


#426 Lucas Ashrock

Lucas Ashrock

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Banned
  • 1000 posts
  • Location:Asia, always around

Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:18 PM

Would be cool, yes. :cool:

#427 Robsy128

Robsy128

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2916 posts
  • Location:Rata Sum
  • Profession:Ranger
  • Server:Yak’s Bend

Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:24 PM

View PostLucas Ashrock, on 12 December 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

Yeah well, there aren't so many alternatives for high quality f2p games around, except some pearls like Planetside2, or runescape, but well, just one of the 2 mentioned is a fantasy mmo.. any suggestion? :) At the end, picking the best, considering what gw2 is, and what could potentially be, would gather loads of players if properly managed and not a stupid clone like old good launch days.
So simple: ascended gearcrapgrind removed, on par with exotic gear + upgrade, see , same (or even not introduced at all) about weapons and armors, not that hard to re-manage this game properly. Clearly who is a f2p fanatic will shrugs. Speaking of which i doubt is the core nor the entire playerbase. If you consider they WASTED  their money for gems for a stupid halloween events (looking forward to read about more idiots spending real money for wintersday ), even spending 100 200 bucks, or use goldsellers to complete their legendary, go figure of what kind of people we are talking about :P
Look at it this way: the entire playerbase get an immediate refund of game client. And a sub. Well, this is a great marketing choice for a new management , to begin with ;) A refund of a deluxe edition should cover 6 months of a subbed management, 1 year even, depends on how they wants to manage the disappointed playerbase. Example: who got a refund, is allowed to pay with the same amount 1 year subbed, of a fresh new superb content and management. Now tell me if all of us will not put a sign now and accept the deal

I don't think a lot of people wasted their money during the events in Guild Wars 2. In fact, everyone I know who plays the game didn't spend a single penny on the gem store since release. There's been no need to. And it's hardly a clone at all. It's a very different MMO to what we've seen over the years.

I still don't really see the point of this discussion as Arenanet have said that Guild Wars 2 will never be a subscription-based game. Now you can all moan and dream of the perfect MMO with a subscription but it's just not going to happen with Guild Wars 2. I even remember moderators shutting down a lot of threads regarding Guild Wars 2 being a subscription-based game because people are just wasting their breath discussing it.

#428 raspberry jam

raspberry jam

    Vigil Crusader

  • Members
  • 4792 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:37 PM

View PostKrazzar, on 10 December 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

That's $50 you are forced to pay versus $50 given voluntarily. In other words you are certain to pay $50 in one and can potentially pay $50 in the other, so no, it's not $50 = $50 in the real world.

So cash shops take advantage of the impatient and hardcore players (ignoring gold to gems) and subscription fees take advantage of everyone. Seems pretty standard in a normal market, last I checked convienience is a major feature in all markets.
so what you're saying is that sub fee games are automatically convenient while cash shop games have a profit interest in inconveniencing their players?
i agree.


View PostRobsy128, on 10 December 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

True, but does Guild Wars 2 really have that?
Look at it this way - everyone goes at the same pace. However, there are items that can make things go a little faster (not much, just a little). So, instead of gaining 1 level in an hour of play time, you gain 1.5.
The difference between the Guild Wars 2 cash shop and pretty much every MMO out there at the moment is that Guild Wars 2 offers you those same exact boosts within the game. You can literally get a key from an event, open up a black lion chest and get a karma boost as well as an exp boost. Or you can complete a map (I'm sure they give you a black lion key... although I could be wrong). The point is, you only need to spend a little more time in the game in order to get the same boost.
I'd say levelling in Aion and WoW as well as SWTOR is a lot slower than Guild Wars 2. Why? Because they need you to be slow so they can suck every penny from your bank. With Guild Wars 2, it's completely optional and is the best option for the players as they don't feel like they have to play every hour of everyday to get their moneys worth. And let's not forget that the fun part of those games is right at the end, so you have to pay the box fee as well as the subscription fee for about 2 or 3 months just to access the fun content (which really isn't fun anyway).
The profit incentive? Yes.

Or do you mean that they actually slow you down? Yes, they sure do. That you can get the same boosters in game is kind of beside the point, since buying boosters essentially means that you buy time and guess what it takes to find boosters in game? Time. The end result is like such lottery tickets that pay you the same sum that the ticket itself cost, or double that... You're still going to average out in a net loss.

Other games have slower leveling, I agree. I don't agree in that the fun part of those games are at the end, though. There are no fun parts to those games, in that manner they are like GW2.

#429 Lucas Ashrock

Lucas Ashrock

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Banned
  • 1000 posts
  • Location:Asia, always around

Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:50 PM

View PostRobsy128, on 12 December 2012 - 05:24 PM, said:

I don't think a lot of people wasted their money during the events in Guild Wars 2. In fact, everyone I know who plays the game didn't spend a single penny on the gem store since release. There's been no need to. And it's hardly a clone at all. It's a very different MMO to what we've seen over the years.

I still don't really see the point of this discussion as Arenanet have said that Guild Wars 2 will never be a subscription-based game. Now you can all moan and dream of the perfect MMO with a subscription but it's just not going to happen with Guild Wars 2. I even remember moderators shutting down a lot of threads regarding Guild Wars 2 being a subscription-based game because people are just wasting their breath discussing it.
Depends. Anet is having some internal troubles and devs kicked out, stocks are at freefall, everyone on their forum type "this game is a fail" every 2 posts, newcomers are just disgusted of the fractal only-sometimes a dungeon game, they are still working on their lv14 wondering why they are alone all the time, every section is filled of complains over complains and devs ignore them, most don't get even a short generic answer of our fancy "Robert Hrouda" where on most he type " i'm not the programmer i have no idea i'll ask him" etc.
We can still pray on a big fail and a shutdown reselling the brand. Would be so awesome :cool:
Now add people who grow a brain and understand there is law on their side to sue them and dig them about a couple aspects.
Sadly, not the best bet for sure :zzz:

The thread is about prefer a sub fee and why, i don't see why a moderator would close this thread :huh:

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 12 December 2012 - 05:52 PM.


#430 Sinful01

Sinful01

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 63 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:00 PM

For those of us wishing there were more cosmetic and/or goofy items in the cash shop, worry not, it is almost time to release them (expect an influx soon, or at latest, February.

If they added them early, everyone would be able to afford them by just exchanging gold for gems.  That makes ANet little to no profit on those cosmetic items.

Now that gold->gems prices are what they are, 'casual' players (those most likely to buy cosmetics, since more 'hardcore' players are expected to be all about the stats) will be priced out of the gold->gem conversion market and unable to buy those new cosmetic items for in-game gold.  That means, they'll be 'forced' to use real world currency to get their cosmetic fix.  This equates to increased ANet profits.


td;dr - There is an artist with a flash drive w/ your cool armor skins on it waiting to plug it in, while the Nexon monetary lady says "Hooooold .... hooOOOOoooold ...", while keeping an eye on the gold-to-gem conversation rate.

#431 MazingerZ

MazingerZ

    Golem Rider

  • Curse Premium
  • Curse Premium
  • 2274 posts
  • Profession:Guardian
  • Guild Tag:[CYRL]
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:17 PM

View PostSinful01, on 12 December 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

For those of us wishing there were more cosmetic and/or goofy items in the cash shop, worry not, it is almost time to release them (expect an influx soon, or at latest, February.

If they added them early, everyone would be able to afford them by just exchanging gold for gems.  That makes ANet little to no profit on those cosmetic items.

Now that gold->gems prices are what they are, 'casual' players (those most likely to buy cosmetics, since more 'hardcore' players are expected to be all about the stats) will be priced out of the gold->gem conversion market and unable to buy those new cosmetic items for in-game gold.  That means, they'll be 'forced' to use real world currency to get their cosmetic fix.  This equates to increased ANet profits.


td;dr - There is an artist with a flash drive w/ your cool armor skins on it waiting to plug it in, while the Nexon monetary lady says "Hooooold .... hooOOOOoooold ...", while keeping an eye on the gold-to-gem conversation rate.

So to say it another way, casual players not focused on power-progression have been priced out of the gold->gem market by the FOTM/Ascended grind so that they have to spend real money on cosmetic items in the shop?

That is a pretty bad way to run an economy.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#432 FoxBat

FoxBat

    Vigil Crusader

  • Members
  • 3975 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:17 PM

View PostSinful01, on 12 December 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

Now that gold->gems prices are what they are, 'casual' players (those most likely to buy cosmetics, since more 'hardcore' players are expected to be all about the stats) will be priced out of the gold->gem conversion market and unable to buy those new cosmetic items for in-game gold.  That means, they'll be 'forced' to use real world currency to get their cosmetic fix.  This equates to increased ANet profits.

You make it almost sound as if gems on the market fall from the sky, like someone didn't already pay Anet for them at sometime.

Cheap gems just mean alot of people are buying gold, which is just as good as far as Anet is concerned.

Edited by FoxBat, 12 December 2012 - 06:18 PM.


#433 Robsy128

Robsy128

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2916 posts
  • Location:Rata Sum
  • Profession:Ranger
  • Server:Yak’s Bend

Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:42 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 12 December 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:


The profit incentive? Yes.

Or do you mean that they actually slow you down? Yes, they sure do. That you can get the same boosters in game is kind of beside the point, since buying boosters essentially means that you buy time and guess what it takes to find boosters in game? Time. The end result is like such lottery tickets that pay you the same sum that the ticket itself cost, or double that... You're still going to average out in a net loss.

Other games have slower leveling, I agree. I don't agree in that the fun part of those games are at the end, though. There are no fun parts to those games, in that manner they are like GW2.

No, I meant slowing you down.

What are you comparing the process to? It's like saying Skyrim slows you down when levelling, or Dark Souls slows you down. There are activities in all of those games that give you exp. If you don't do the activities, then yes, you slow down. It's not just with Guild Wars 2 - that's pretty much with every game with exp and levelling involved.

As I said before, Arenanet aren't going to change their model at all. Having a subscription wouldn't make things faster whatsoever. They would still sell boosters, cosmetic items and account upgrades in the cash shop. Just look at every other MMO out there. Most of them have cash shops and we've known since before the game released that they would sell time-savers in the cash shop. The thing is, they don't really save that much time anyway. The exp boost gives you +50%exp from monster kills, not quests or dungeons. So in an hour, you'd gain 1.5 levels instead of 1 if you were doing general PvE content. In a dungeon; probably 3 levels instead of 2 within an hour.

View PostLucas Ashrock, on 12 December 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

Depends. Anet is having some internal troubles and devs kicked out, stocks are at freefall, everyone on their forum type "this game is a fail" every 2 posts, newcomers are just disgusted of the fractal only-sometimes a dungeon game, they are still working on their lv14 wondering why they are alone all the time, every section is filled of complains over complains and devs ignore them, most don't get even a short generic answer of our fancy "Robert Hrouda" where on most he type " i'm not the programmer i have no idea i'll ask him" etc.
We can still pray on a big fail and a shutdown reselling the brand. Would be so awesome :cool:
Now add people who grow a brain and understand there is law on their side to sue them and dig them about a couple aspects.
Sadly, not the best bet for sure :zzz:

The thread is about prefer a sub fee and why, i don't see why a moderator would close this thread :huh:

The people working at Arenanet aren't replying probably because they have more important things to do - you know, like their jobs. Most of the people on the official forums aren't even playing the game, much like half the people plaguing these forums. They simply go on to moan about the game.

Would a subscription change any of this? Not at all.

#434 raspberry jam

raspberry jam

    Vigil Crusader

  • Members
  • 4792 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:01 PM

View PostRobsy128, on 12 December 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

No, I meant slowing you down.

What are you comparing the process to? It's like saying Skyrim slows you down when levelling, or Dark Souls slows you down. There are activities in all of those games that give you exp. If you don't do the activities, then yes, you slow down. It's not just with Guild Wars 2 - that's pretty much with every game with exp and levelling involved.

As I said before, Arenanet aren't going to change their model at all. Having a subscription wouldn't make things faster whatsoever. They would still sell boosters, cosmetic items and account upgrades in the cash shop. Just look at every other MMO out there. Most of them have cash shops and we've known since before the game released that they would sell time-savers in the cash shop. The thing is, they don't really save that much time anyway. The exp boost gives you +50%exp from monster kills, not quests or dungeons. So in an hour, you'd gain 1.5 levels instead of 1 if you were doing general PvE content. In a dungeon; probably 3 levels instead of 2 within an hour.
Skyrim has level scaling content. Sure, it slows you down, but it doesn't throttle much. Dark Souls is similar, even though you can complete the game without leveling up at all. GW2 though has throttling everywhere.

I agree with everything else.

#435 Feathermoore

Feathermoore

    Underdog

  • Super Moderators
  • 3836 posts
  • Guild Tag:[AWWW]
  • Server:Crystal Desert

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:36 PM

View PostRobsy128, on 12 December 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:


The people working at Arenanet aren't replying probably because they have more important things to do - you know, like their jobs.

Replying to player comments is the job of some people working at Anet. It is also their job to communicate between the devs and the players.

Little Mabel won't be able to be here it's our worst fear. She's busy working on her garden that she's growing up in space.


Why hello there forumite. Would you like me to review some moderation you did not agree with? Never fear! PM is here! Want to be a better poster? Check on this link! And this one!


#436 Robsy128

Robsy128

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2916 posts
  • Location:Rata Sum
  • Profession:Ranger
  • Server:Yak’s Bend

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:56 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 12 December 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

Skyrim has level scaling content. Sure, it slows you down, but it doesn't throttle much. Dark Souls is similar, even though you can complete the game without leveling up at all. GW2 though has throttling everywhere.


I'll agree and also add that they need to sort out the exp difference between general PvE content and dungeons. As it is right now, you gain about 2-3 levels per hour in a dungeon (you can run a dungeon twice in an hour if you have a great team). But in the open world, it's quite slow. I'm personally struggling with my second character, a level 34 charr warrior because it feels like it's taking forever to get to 35 so I can start running an explorable dungeon. But like I said, a subscription wouldn't change this.


View PostFeathermoore, on 12 December 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

Replying to player comments is the job of some people working at Anet. It is also their job to communicate between the devs and the players.

True, but I think it's unreasonable to believe they'll reply to every single post and complaint, especially when they've already given answers to said complaint before. Sorry if I didn't make that clear before, but that was what I meant when I was replying to Lucas.

#437 Sinful01

Sinful01

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 63 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:00 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 12 December 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

So to say it another way, casual players not focused on power-progression have been priced out of the gold->gem market by the FOTM/Ascended grind so that they have to spend real money on cosmetic items in the shop?

That is a pretty bad way to run an economy.

No no no ... it is brilliant!

Are the more hardcore players, which includes those with lots of free time, going to spend real-world cash on gems?  Maybe, but most will just say "eff it, I'll just grind the gold and buy the gems in game."

Now, will the casual people, who have less time to play ... who may have more disposable income ... will THEY pay with real-world cash for stuff they want? More so probably, yes.  They want the cosmetic stuff.

Hmm ... won't those casuals just buy cheap gems with gold to get the stuff they want?  Oh crap, yes they will!  ... but wait! ... if the prices on gems go up so high they CAN'T buy what they want with in-game-gold, they'll HAVE TO spend real-world money on them!

*tweedle mustache, maniacal laughter*


View PostFoxBat, on 12 December 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

You make it almost sound as if gems on the market fall from the sky, like someone didn't already pay Anet for them at sometime.

Gems are fake currency, wholly manipulable by ANet.  Gems are basically a Gift Card.  There is no limit on them. If you believe there is one, then that is like (IMHO) believing that Starbucks one day will just say "sorry, you cannot buy that gift card .. we've run out of Starbucks Bucks, come back when a couple people buy some coffee with Gift Cards and we can give you theirs."

Then: think of in-game-gold as "loyalty points".  When you collect enough of them, you can trade them for a Gift Card!  So, spend enough time in game and slowly ... slowly ... earn enough points to get a freebie item from the gem store!  Yay!

It is a closed system ... once money goes into the store, it never comes out. Since there is zero way for you to get your gems turned into actual money again, when you trade gems-for-gold, you're basically just trading a currency with a fixed value (gems always buy the same amount from the gem store) for a volatile one (gold-price-to-gems exchange rate fluctuates).

Now lets say you buy gold with your 800 gems ... and 2 months later gold-to-gem rate is more favorable, and you trade that gold for 1600 gems.  HAHA!  You just doubled your money!  Well, honestly, did you?  ... and should Anet care?  You turned your fixed value Gift Card into twice as much in loyalty points then back into a gift card ... either way, you're stuck spending it in ANet's store on stuff that costs them zero to make/stock.  The 2 days it took that art dude to design the armor before it hit the gem store didn't cost much  ... they'll get that cash back quick.

Quote

Cheap gems just mean alot of people are buying gold, which is just as good as far as Anet is concerned.

I'm not sure I get what you're saying.  Cheap how?  The price for gems in real-world-money never changes.  800 gems today is the same price as 800 gems on day 1.

Do you mean cheap as in, how much gold it costs to buy gems?

Low gold price for gems = people convert gold into gems.  Those people then buy cash shop items for gold, basically.  They're paying zero actual money for the cash shop items.  Anet is saddened by this.  People are gobbling up the content they made to sell for real-world-money without paying real-world-money for it.

High gold price for gems = people buy gems with real world money.  ANet happily accepts it and is collecting, basically, 'free money' because you're paying them real money for non-real-world currency (gems).  People that use that for gem store items, or people turning those gems into gold (because you can get a LOT of gold for your gems right now compared to previously) doesn't matter to ANet ... either way ANet already has the money in their pocket.  What you do with your Gift Card doesn't matter to them, you still can only use it in their store.

#438 MazingerZ

MazingerZ

    Golem Rider

  • Curse Premium
  • Curse Premium
  • 2274 posts
  • Profession:Guardian
  • Guild Tag:[CYRL]
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:26 PM

To everything you say above...

Cash->Gems is a fixed rate.  Part of the reason ArenaNet makes your money worth less or more in terms of gold is because tweaking the conversion rate is easier than tweaking all the other sinks in the game designed to take that gold away.  It's a throttling mechanism against inflation as well as a way to draw more money from people who aren't necessarily paying attention to the conversion rate as it fluctuates.

Moderating the exchange rate is perhaps the only way they're currently managing customer expectations... and they're letting an algorithm do it.  Many people buying gems?  Increase cost of gems for gold.  Rake in more money.  Fewer people buying gems?  Lower rate to entice more RMT.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#439 Kymeric

Kymeric

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1979 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:00 PM

View PostDaesu, on 12 December 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

It is kind of like youtube where people vote for their best channels.  I don't see why user-generated content should lack creativity or takes no risk, just look at UGCs on youtube, would you say that all of them lack creativity?

I haven't spent a lot of time looking through youtube stuff.  I don't doubt there is highly creative stuff, and even quality stuff, but is it what becomes most popular?

Because that's the idea I was seeing here.  That somehow, competition would cause the quality stuff to rise to the top because people would want to play it, when often, what rises to the top is the junk with some sort of cheap appeal.

I suppose a group of critics might form who took it upon them to find the quality stuff, and players who were really interested in quality would follow them.  No guarantee that this content wouldn't remain relatively niche, however.  As much as some of us are hungry and waiting for a challenging, quality, non-linear, horizontal progression MMORPG, is that what the majority really wants?

If it was, wouldn't it be provided by the commercial market we have now just as easily as a market of user generated content?

#440 Daesu

Daesu

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1344 posts
  • Guild Tag:[NPO]
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:00 PM

View PostKymeric, on 12 December 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

I haven't spent a lot of time looking through youtube stuff.  I don't doubt there is highly creative stuff, and even quality stuff, but is it what becomes most popular?

Of course there are.  I don't know if you have seen this creative video but it is certainly hilarious to me.




Quote

Because that's the idea I was seeing here.  That somehow, competition would cause the quality stuff to rise to the top because people would want to play it, when often, what rises to the top is the junk with some sort of cheap appeal.

I suppose a group of critics might form who took it upon them to find the quality stuff, and players who were really interested in quality would follow them.  No guarantee that this content wouldn't remain relatively niche, however.  As much as some of us are hungry and waiting for a challenging, quality, non-linear, horizontal progression MMORPG, is that what the majority really wants?

If it was, wouldn't it be provided by the commercial market we have now just as easily as a market of user generated content?

Perhaps I am not sure what you mean by people liking junk content.  If someone can create a "junk" game that lots of people are crazy about, isn't that like the El Dorado of the game industry?

The thing about the internet is that everyone is a voter, not group governmental bodies or something similar.  I happen to prefer that than having a group of 'elite' to govern the internet.  Sure anyone can be a critic but the most believable critics are the ones that have the power to sway crowds.  Marketing calls them alpha users, and they are the important "hubs" of the network and "hubs" are mathematically proven to be inevitable on small world networks.

It is not provided by the commercial market now because firstly it is not easy to implement, and secondly, perhaps the most important reason, it is not easy to control or earn a lot of money from it once it is out.

Edited by Daesu, 12 December 2012 - 11:14 PM.


#441 Kymeric

Kymeric

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1979 posts

Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:18 PM

I think I'm understanding you.  In the end, there need to be systems that guide people to excellent content, which most likely would be people who search for it and get a reputation as being able to find and identify it.

Just to make sure, I'll reiterate that I don't doubt good content can be user-generated.  There are surely brilliant things on Youtube.  The trick is, how do you find the brilliant things hidden among all of the junk, and the stupid stuff that gets a lot of views just because it's uniquely ludicrous?

It's possible, but it's an issue that needs good solutions if user generated content is going to provide anything deep or creative.

#442 Daesu

Daesu

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1344 posts
  • Guild Tag:[NPO]
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:25 PM

View PostKymeric, on 13 December 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

I think I'm understanding you.  In the end, there need to be systems that guide people to excellent content, which most likely would be people who search for it and get a reputation as being able to find and identify it.

Just to make sure, I'll reiterate that I don't doubt good content can be user-generated.  There are surely brilliant things on Youtube.  The trick is, how do you find the brilliant things hidden among all of the junk, and the stupid stuff that gets a lot of views just because it's uniquely ludicrous?

It's possible, but it's an issue that needs good solutions if user generated content is going to provide anything deep or creative.

I agree.  There has be a way for them to search based on popularity of content and recommendations from their friends/family.  This is similar to how social media advertising works nowadays.

We can also throw in algorithm to actively recommend content to you based on the system "learning" your likes and which friends' recommendations you tend to go with.

#443 Sinful01

Sinful01

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 63 posts

Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:21 PM

Wait ... things aren't best just because they're most popular?

Dangit ... I'm throwing my McDonalds in the trash and cancelling development on the Honey Boo Boo MMORPG. :(

#444 Daesu

Daesu

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1344 posts
  • Guild Tag:[NPO]
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:10 PM

View PostSinful01, on 13 December 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

Wait ... things aren't best just because they're most popular?

Dangit ... I'm throwing my McDonalds in the trash and cancelling development on the Honey Boo Boo MMORPG. :(

Well....do most of your friends and family like McDonalds?  What you say is also valid.  McDonalds may be very popular in, for example India, but it is not as popular in the States.  What is popular for someone in one part of the world, may not be as popular for someone else in another part of the world.

This is where social media elements can come into play.  Just becareful when you add your Indian friends to your facebook, or you would be getting a lot of push for you to visit McDonalds.  :)

Edited by Daesu, 13 December 2012 - 11:10 PM.


#445 Feathermoore

Feathermoore

    Underdog

  • Super Moderators
  • 3836 posts
  • Guild Tag:[AWWW]
  • Server:Crystal Desert

Posted 14 December 2012 - 02:53 AM

View PostDaesu, on 13 December 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Well....do most of your friends and family like McDonalds?  What you say is also valid.  McDonalds may be very popular in, for example India, but it is not as popular in the States.  What is popular for someone in one part of the world, may not be as popular for someone else in another part of the world.


:huh:
Fast food in general is terrible. We all know it. And yet it is still by far the most popular food source in the States. Mickey D's is stupid popular in the States. Not sure what you are basing this off of.

Development through popular voting is iffy at best. People who don't really think the situation all the way through or who don't have the knowledge background to see the full picture generally vastly outnumber the people who actually see the whole picture. You end up with the polarized views that actually restrict creativity when you rely on popular opinion.

Little Mabel won't be able to be here it's our worst fear. She's busy working on her garden that she's growing up in space.


Why hello there forumite. Would you like me to review some moderation you did not agree with? Never fear! PM is here! Want to be a better poster? Check on this link! And this one!


#446 Daesu

Daesu

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1344 posts
  • Guild Tag:[NPO]
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 14 December 2012 - 03:03 AM

View PostFeathermoore, on 14 December 2012 - 02:53 AM, said:

:huh:
Fast food in general is terrible. We all know it. And yet it is still by far the most popular food source in the States. Mickey D's is stupid popular in the States. Not sure what you are basing this off of.

Maybe I am wrong, but I find McDonalds to be a lot more popular in Asia, in general, than it is in the States.  In Asia, Mcdonalds are usually crowded over the weekends, but I dont see the same thing here in the States.  Lots of young kids hang around McDonalds because of all that Ronald McDonald clown advertisements and asian teenagers love to hang out in McDonalds as it has a cool American icon feel to it, thanks to Hollywood influence.  I guess Americans just dont see that, as fishes do not notice the water around them. :)

Quote

Development through popular voting is iffy at best. People who don't really think the situation all the way through or who don't have the knowledge background to see the full picture generally vastly outnumber the people who actually see the whole picture. You end up with the polarized views that actually restrict creativity when you rely on popular opinion.

I think that is the way games are in real life.  You tend to play the same games as your friends.  And even if you don't, you tend to want to pull your friends into the games that you like and vice versa.

At least if you are looking for a new game, with all the titles out there, you can't try them all.  But usually you would give the popular ones a look/try.

Edited by Daesu, 14 December 2012 - 03:10 AM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users