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#31 Happiness Factory

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:13 PM

Well eles might be the meta for EU but atm necros dictate the meta in NA. Teamfights literally revolve around wells Rez signet and who can kill the enemy necro first. I'm not quite sure eles are getting backlash for downed state either, mesmers and thief downed state interrupts are nearly just as good. And maybe the downed state heal can be a trade off for not having an insanely powerful elite like timewarp/moa or thieves shadow refuge.

I'm not saying eles are bad, far from it. But it's all give and take and ATM I feel that eles are deserving of arguably the most powerful downed state.

And as for the comment 4 eles and 1 Mesmer wins all games... I ran 3 thieves and 2 rangers and won a few frees as well and I don't think they're overpowered. Elementalist downed state is not as crazy as the EU guys make it out to be I think.

#32 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:16 PM

View PostHappiness Factory, on 01 December 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

And as for the comment 4 eles and 1 Mesmer wins all games... I ran 3 thieves and 2 rangers and won a few frees as well and I don't think they're overpowered. Elementalist downed state is not as crazy as the EU guys make it out to be I think.

About the whole "ele downed state is the only uncounterable downed state". That's a load of BS. Mesmer is just as uncounterable. They can avoid the first stomp 100%. Just like ele. And against thieves you need a teleport which isn't as common as stability.

But if ele downed state needs nerfing then mesmer needs just as much.

#33 Milennin

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:16 PM

View PostCarebear_Sss, on 01 December 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

Stop crying about eles. Ele downed state is OP as it's now. Ele op compared to warrior, yes. So many condition removals etc. Open your eyez guyz. They will rework some abilities so focus for example will get usefull, that would open more builds.
From my POV when teams will use every ability type, then game will be balanced and they strive for it.
L2P noobs, he didnt said it, i just mentioned it.
I play in Royal Legion team we have 130 QP, but we play maybe 4 days a week 4h each (max). We replaced our necro because last one got bored of the game and quited, no drama attached.
//////////////////////////////THE TOPIC/////////////////////
Maybe not all interesting questions were asked but most 4 sure.
Xeph my respect for you just got bigger, gj man.
Rest of guys, maybe to selfish, maybe not but I liked to listen to your opinions.

I hope GW2Guru will continue to host such events.

The problem I have is that staff Ele in PvE became a total borefest because lousy PvP'ers abused the hell out of one trait.
Edit: But of course there'll be another round of nerfs coming to Elementalists because a bunch of PvP guys abuse the hell out of whatever's in now. And of course there will not be a split for PvE... Needless to say I can't wait for the next "balance".

Edited by Milennin, 01 December 2012 - 06:18 PM.


#34 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:17 PM

View PostCarebear_Sss, on 01 December 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

You can have 20k hp use knight/soldier amulet. :)


Which is still less HP than a warrior with berserkers amulet.

#35 blindude

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:17 PM

View PostCarebear_Sss, on 01 December 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

You can have 20k hp use knight/soldier amulet. :)
I play as glass cannon on ele your argument is invalid.

You can't have all in one boss. Crt dmg and (...) and Hp. :P
but the warrior will have 30k hp with the same setup not to mention higher armor and same offencive stats .Ele by definiton need more active defences in the form of healing or invulnerabilities (i would prefer stealth though :)).I dont say that warrior is fine with just better stats since thats false but whatever way you look at it it wont be balanced unless the lowest armor health class gets more utility and tricks or just total damage increase.
Even as a glass canon healing is very improtant for you so you will be affected if they nerf bunker ele again.
I think we are turning this into a class debate though ..

#36 xLOKIx0830

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:19 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 01 December 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

Vitality is a base defense against condtions. So of course ele - the class with the lowest HP - has more condition removal than warriors - the class with the highest HP. It's not OP at all it's balanced.

What they need to do is make damage builds viable for ele. At the moment all we can do is bunker up. Nothing else is viable at all. And that's the main problem with ele, not condition removals.

So then, by that logic, thieves should also have a comparable amount of condition removals since they has the same base health as the ele, but oh wait, they have practically no condition removals to speak of.

Eles do need a bit more offense, I agree with this, but the healing they can provide, IMO, is too over the top. Having a glass cannon thief or warrior focus entirely on taking down a d/d ele and be unable to match its healing is absurd. Likewise, I feel thief and warrior should have their overall burst potential lowered in exchange for some viable condition counters, since those 2 classes suffer the most from conditions.

#37 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:23 PM

View PostxLOKIx0830, on 01 December 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

So then, by that logic, thieves should also have a comparable amount of condition removals since they has the same base health as the ele, but oh wait, they have practically no condition removals to speak of.


What? Shadowstep is one of the best condition removal/stunbreak/teleport/escape all-in-one skills in the game. Ele only has a high amount of condition removal in a full on bunker spec. And you know what? If a thief specs for condition removal he can have almost as much. Removing conditions in stealth, etc. But they spec glasscannon. Of course they have less condition removal then. They could even use a mainhand sword and have a no cooldown condition removal there. But they don't want to because DAMAGE.

Edited by AetherMcLoud, 01 December 2012 - 06:24 PM.


#38 fatality39

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:27 PM

Talk is cheap. Make the pvp in this game worth doing again and again and again and people will log in just for that game mode. They will download videos to watch others and dissenct builds and strats. However, right now all this talk is just that TALK.  I personally do not see Anet making this a viable PVP game for the masses that enjoy competitive pvp.

HOWEVER, they can if they get the kittening act together like yesterday.

#39 Frakov

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:38 PM

View PostI, on 01 December 2012 - 05:24 AM, said:

Haven't listened to this discussion yet. But, i'm pretty sure the PvE state of the game is much worse rather than the PvP aspect. Pretty disappointed that this discussion is strictly SPvP based.

I've played a fair amount of PvE and sPvP (multiple 80s, most dungeon paths done, most crafting mastered for PvE and ~r26/27 for PvP). To me, the PvE-side of GW2 feels a lot more fleshed out than the sPvP side. PvE also seems to get tons of new content (special events, new dungeon, new DEs), while sPvP gets 1 new map and some added mystic forge recipes to make the crappy chest rewards slightly better. PvE also seems to get more bugfixes (as a PvP player it really hurts to be stuck on a loading screen in the middle of a tournament<--might get fixed Monday after how long?).

sPvP really needs the attention because it's still lacking key features, which you would've known about had you watched the video. Tournament queues (even free ones) can be way too long depending on the hour of the day. Class balance needs a ton of work if we're ever to see classes have more than one or two viable builds.

I'm not saying PvE doesn't need work (not sure what it's like now since I quit Pve pre-Fractals), but I disagree entirely that the state of PvE is "much worse" than the state of sPvP.

#40 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:42 PM

Things that PVE got since launch:
+ Halloween event (dungeon, boss, clocktower, world event, ...)
+ Lost Shores Event (a whole new zone, quests, events, ...)
+ Chrismas event (soon, probably quests, world event, dungeon like halloween)
+ Fractals (some kind of unending dungeon that levels with you, mighty cool)

THings that PVP got since launch:
+ Paid tournaments that noone plays
+ A new map that's not available for tournaments because it's beta.

I don't even understand how they do NOT have every single able developer working on PVP stuff 24/7.

#41 ensoriki

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:59 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 01 December 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:



What? Shadowstep is one of the best condition removal/stunbreak/teleport/escape all-in-one skills in the game. Ele only has a high amount of condition removal in a full on bunker spec. And you know what? If a thief specs for condition removal he can have almost as much. Removing conditions in stealth, etc. But they spec glasscannon. Of course they have less condition removal then. They could even use a mainhand sword and have a no cooldown condition removal there. But they don't want to because DAMAGE.
I play S/D thief religiously our cont removal  isn't horrendous but lettuce be cereal, ether renewal alone chits on conditions and has 15 recharge. I like to dabble in D/d ele and its strength is mind blowing.
Our health is the same 9 times out of 10 if it will one shot you it will one shot me. Therr are certain parts of ele defence that are better than stealth especially in terms of encouraging variety. I think both get over and underrated more then they are.

What I found lacking was temple and Capricorn discussion. If Corn isn't going to be fixed its time to delete it cannonis buggy too. If these aaren't tournament bound delete.

Edited by ensoriki, 01 December 2012 - 07:02 PM.


#42 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:12 PM

Well if you're dumb/bad enough to let an ele channel ether renewal he deserves to have the conditions removed. It's the easiest to interrupt heal in the game.

#43 Elemental Gearbolt

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:20 PM

View PostCarebear_Sss, on 01 December 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

You can have 20k hp use knight/soldier amulet. :)
I play as glass cannon on ele your argument is invalid.

You can't have all in one boss. Crt dmg and (...) and Hp. :P

Lol you play glass cannon ele and tell people that eles got too many condition removals?

In my opinion if somebody specc for survival, he should be damn able to survive if not there would no freaking point in going 30 water and use all condition removal traits, now a decent ele will wait to have huge stacks on him before switching to water and remove them.

On the other hand we've got clueless spammers who have been riding the easy mode wave up to this moment, I don't think is a balance problem if your average player is unable to discern the abilities of the opponent and then go on the forum to cry once he loses...it all become apparent to me how the current generation of gamers think :

" What beats me is OP, but what I beat need to l2p"

Here is a suggestion given to ele players few months ago from other professions:

L2P


Stop spamming conditions and attack when people got their defenses up and make an ele , isn't that what thieves and mesmers have always said to others?

View Postensoriki, on 01 December 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

I play S/D thief religiously our cont removal  isn't horrendous but lettuce be cereal, ether renewal alone chits on conditions and has 15 recharge. I like to dabble in D/d ele and its strength is mind blowing.
Our health is the same 9 times out of 10 if it will one shot you it will one shot me. Therr are certain parts of ele defence that are better than stealth especially in terms of encouraging variety. I think both get over and underrated more then they are.

What I found lacking was temple and Capricorn discussion. If Corn isn't going to be fixed its time to delete it cannonis buggy too. If these aaren't tournament bound delete.

What @ AetherMcLoud said:

If you're unable to interrupt a 3s channeling healing..you deserve to be outplayed, between the sword daze auto-attack and pistol headshot and it's 4 initiative only...-_-...you really need to get your shit together before complaining

#44 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:22 PM

It's also funny that two glasscannon thiefs and a necro (and even a frakking mesmer lol) complain about eles but none of those "pros" plays one.

You know how the remaining ele players got so good at countering thieves for instance? By frakking playing one for a long time.

Edited by AetherMcLoud, 01 December 2012 - 07:23 PM.


#45 ensoriki

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:34 PM

View PostElemental Gearbolt, on 01 December 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

If you're unable to interrupt a 3s channeling healing..you deserve to be outplayed, between the sword daze auto-attack and pistol headshot and it's 4 initiative only... -_-...you really need to get your shit together before complaining
Who's complaining? Oh lawd. I have no issues with Eles in S/D, I stay on my toes, they stay on theirs. As far as headshot goes, it trashes a lot of Heals, so I'm not going to pretend that's Ele exclusive and go back to the main point. Ether renewal chews up conditions every 15s at will, and none of us assumingly are inept, if we want our heal to go off, we know how to do so. This is in contrast to the 50s RC of Shadow Refuge for 3 conditions, that requires you to go back to where you are instead of fleeing. Pro's and cons on both sides, I don't see why play the victim on either side in this respect. Thieves can remove conditions and so can Eles, but after playing both, I much prefer the Elementalists ability to do so than my own thiefs, much easier to do without cookie cutting Shadowstep and stealth conditions. Considering Signet of agility is rather lacking in that respect, HIS in 30s and Withdraw won't remove a stack of bleed.

Edited by ensoriki, 01 December 2012 - 07:38 PM.


#46 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:39 PM

View Postensoriki, on 01 December 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

Who's complaining? Oh lawd. I have no issues with Eles in S/D, I stay on my toes, they stay on theirs. As far as headshot goes, it trashes a lot of Heals, so I'm not going to pretend that's Ele exclusive and go back to the main point. Ether renewal chews up conditions every 15s at will, and none of us assumingly are inept, if we want our heal to go off, we know how to do so. This is in contrast to the 50s RC of Shadow Refuge for 3 conditions, that requires you to go back to where you are instead of fleeing. Pro's and cons on both sides, I don't see why play the victim on either side in this respect. Thieves can remove conditions and so can Eles, but after playing both, I much prefer the Elementalists ability to do so than my own thiefs.

a) The problem is those so called pros in the video complained a lot about ele - yet not one of them plays one - and they even said "the best thing would be if anet only listens to them and noone else and does exactly what they want because they AND ONLY THEY know what's best for the game". And JohnSharp actually kinda agreeing with that.

b ) Thieves can trait for stealth to remove conditions. And thieves can stealth every 3-5 seconds. So there's that.

Edited by AetherMcLoud, 01 December 2012 - 07:39 PM.


#47 ensoriki

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:45 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 01 December 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

a) The problem is those so called pros in the video complained a lot about ele - yet not one of them plays one - and they even said "the best thing would be if anet only listens to them and noone else and does exactly what they want because they AND ONLY THEY know what's best for the game". And JohnSharp actually kinda agreeing with that.

b ) Thieves can trait for stealth to remove conditions. And thieves can stealth every 3-5 seconds. So there's that.
I'll agree with that point though I definitely know what they're talking about in Mist form. Jonathan didn't really agree with it, he said their feedback is meaningful because they see a level of the game low-level players do not, but he has to weigh the needs of upper and lower level play. This is in addition to forum feedback and internal testing. So I didn't take qualm with that.

You are aware that only applies to /D and alienates all /P sets, in other words proving the point of the emphasis Anet has put on CnD at the cost of every other thief. Not something to celebrate or be proud of. I've said it many times but if you're playing S/P, P/P and to a lesser extent (since of HS into BP being costly)  D/P, trait wise you're being crapped on.

#48 xLOKIx0830

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:48 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 01 December 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

What? Shadowstep is one of the best condition removal/stunbreak/teleport/escape all-in-one skills in the game. Ele only has a high amount of condition removal in a full on bunker spec. And you know what? If a thief specs for condition removal he can have almost as much. Removing conditions in stealth, etc. But they spec glasscannon. Of course they have less condition removal then. They could even use a mainhand sword and have a no cooldown condition removal there. But they don't want to because DAMAGE.

Shadowstep is a 50 second cooldown, a stun breaker, and a condition removal if you decide to teleport back. It has multiple uses and is a very good utility, but because of its cooldown, and its other functions, it's a waste to use it for condition removal unless you absolutely need it. Infiltrators strike will take 3 initiative to remove one condition, and it is useless when fighting a conditionmancer or bleed build because they can just keep stacking the conditions. Throwing away all your initiative just to delay your death isn't a sound choice.

The only other options are from signet of agility, which only removes 1, and the shadow art trait that removes 1 condition every 3 seconds in stealth, which, again, won't really matter against a condition based build.

All the thief's options are quick fixes towards minor conditions. He has no defense against a normal condition build. The only thing he can do is just not be hit, and considering 95% of all the condition builds out there are ranged, being able to avoid them is just being unreasonably optimistic.

Thieves aren't meant to bunker, they just don't have the tools to hold a point effectively. So, to invest in every condition removal you can is just pointless for a thief. And, investing too much will mean you won't have any damage to speak of either. Without being able to hold, or take a point, a thief becomes useless, even if he can survive an onslaught of conditions. It won't matter, he won't be able to kill the condition build, he won't be able to take a point, he won't be able to defend a point. Thieves focus on damage because damage is the only viable option for a thief right now, much like how the only viable option for an ele is to bunker.

Edited by xLOKIx0830, 01 December 2012 - 07:49 PM.


#49 Condiments7

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:48 PM

Wow incoming elementalist defense squad. As an ele, I don't know whether to be proud or ashamed. :P

Seriously guys, cool it. Just cause two guys bring a up build they don't like in a discussion doesn't mean its going to be brought down, nor is the class ruined. Our kneejerk 'bawwing' isn't going to change anything even if something is legitimately hurting the metagame at the moment(Ele downstate is mucho OP).

Elementalist in its current position, is one of the strongest classes in the metagame at the moment. We've got great sustain(ether renewal trolololol), great damage, and great mobility.

#50 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:49 PM

View Postensoriki, on 01 December 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:


You are aware that only applies to /D and alienates all /P sets, in other words proving the point of the emphasis Anet has put on CnD at the cost of every other thief. Not something to celebrate or be proud of. I've said it many times but if you're playing S/P, P/P and to a lesser extent (since of HS into BP being costly)  D/P, trait wise you're being crapped on.

Yes but it's not like eles have any weapon choice. Also thieves have 2 weapon sets so if you give up some mobility from shortbow you can always have an offhand dagger in the second set. Also thieves have some smoke fields which give stealth when leapt through.

#51 Roland Der Meister

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:49 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 01 December 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

a) The problem is those so called pros in the video complained a lot about ele - yet not one of them plays one - and they even said "the best thing would be if anet only listens to them and noone else and does exactly what they want because they AND ONLY THEY know what's best for the game". And JohnSharp actually kinda agreeing with that.

b ) Thieves can trait for stealth to remove conditions. And thieves can stealth every 3-5 seconds. So there's that.
I though the complaint was only about the ele downed state and that's its OP

#52 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:51 PM

View PostCondiments7, on 01 December 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

Elementalist in its current position, is one of the strongest classes in the metagame at the moment. We've got great sustain(ether renewal trolololol), great damage, and great mobility.

We've got 1 build. Every other class (besides rangers) at least have 2 AFAIK.

#53 Featherman

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:52 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 01 December 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

It's also funny that two glasscannon thiefs and a necro (and even a frakking mesmer lol) complain about eles but none of those "pros" plays one.

You know how the remaining ele players got so good at countering thieves for instance? By frakking playing one for a long time.

I don't really want to get into this argument again but I have to agree. Eight hours of gameplay a day, huh. What a joke lol. If Eles are giving them problems why don't they add in hard counters to their team comp. I don't know, like maybe the oh-so-popular and powerful hammer guardians? Why not Mesmers? Confusion Mesmers can absolutely wreck eles even if not necessarily focused on condition damage. If all fails, cc + immobilize and focus. We go down fast if there's more than one person attacking us. The problem here, as I see it, is that this group small group of players who consider themselves pro haven't been forced to play any other variation of the meta due to the stagnation of the community. If devs listen only to these guys, it's likely they will only balance the game towards one possible playstyle rather than open up other possible strategies. It's a good thing we heard Jonathan reply the way he did, however. Otherwise I would have totally lost faith in the game's balance for all classes, not just eles.

View PostRoland Der Meister, on 01 December 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

I though the complaint was only about the ele downed state and that's its OP
It was unanimously agreed upon that it was the most overpowered down state, and I actually agree on that. The rest however was just two players complaining.

Edited by Featherman, 01 December 2012 - 07:54 PM.


#54 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:59 PM

View PostFeatherman, on 01 December 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

It's a good thing we heard Jonathan reply the way he did, however. Otherwise I would have totally lost faith in the game's balance for all classes, not just eles.

Yes, I actually though Johnathan came out really well in this stream (and it should really be done monthly).

Quote

It was unanimously agreed upon that it was the most overpowered down state, and I actually agree on that. The rest however was just two players complaining.

The heal is probably overpowered but if that is taken away it should at least be given something else (like stealth in vaporform, more speed or a faster 3 skill). Mesmers downed state is just as uncounterable when stomping as eles which of course wasn't mentioned at all.

#55 Dsquaredcri

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:02 PM

can someone type the entire stream plz, its pretty hard for me to understand jonathan talking :(

#56 ensoriki

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:02 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 01 December 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

The heal is probably overpowered but if that is taken away it should at least be given something else (like stealth in vaporform, more speed or a faster 3 skill). Mesmers downed state is just as uncounterable when stomping as eles which of course wasn't mentioned at all.

You are aware Mesmers get teleported randomly and cannot for instance on Forest, Vapor form off the mine point into the river for safety? Or run away invulnerable to their teammates? Lol If a mesmers not lucky he gets warped within stomping range and still dies from the same stomp he tried to avoid (lolworthy). When it works it's annoying, but Mesmer movement is random and bound to the rules of a shadowstep.

Edited by ensoriki, 01 December 2012 - 08:03 PM.


#57 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:05 PM

View Postensoriki, on 01 December 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

You are aware Mesmers get teleported randomly and cannot for instance on Forest, Vapor form off the mine point into the river for safety? Or run away invulnerable to their teammates? Lol If a mesmers not lucky he gets warped within stomping range and still dies from the same stomp he tried to avoid (lolworthy). When it works it's annoying, but Mesmer movement is random and bound to the rules of a shadowstep.

Yes but besides ele mesmer is the only other class to have a 100% first stomp protection (you can't be stomped in stealth AFAIK even if you teleport inside stomp range).

#58 Roland Der Meister

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:14 PM

The Mesmer downed state is slightly buggy and to random to be called op in my opinion even though it has a 50/50 chance to avoid  getting stomped once i say 50/50 cause i have died in some stupid spots on mesmer and the skill didnt save me for shit.

#59 Silvercat18

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:35 PM

View PostCondiments7, on 01 December 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

Wow incoming elementalist defense squad. As an ele, I don't know whether to be proud or ashamed. :P



You be proud and you be thankful that there are still people playing the class and fighting *your* corner. You should be joining them or you wont have a class left to play by christmas. NB - They nerfed Tornado....

#60 Soryuju

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:13 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 01 December 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

Yes but besides ele mesmer is the only other class to have a 100% first stomp protection (you can't be stomped in stealth AFAIK even if you teleport inside stomp range).

The reason people describe the Ele downed state as uncounterable and not the Mesmer downed state is specifically because the Ele's downed state health resets when they come out of Vapor Form.  With the Mesmer or Thief, you can opt not to stomp and just use regular attacks to wear them down. That way, you make progress toward defeating them even if they manage to teleport, since they won't last long afterward, and you won't need to waste time/leave yourself vulnerable by going through the stomp animation, This doesn't work for the Ele because of the health reset- whether I try to use regular attacks or stomp, Vapor Form is going to waste my efforts.  I believe they mentioned removing the health reset from Vapor Form in the stream, which would fix the issue.  Ele downed state would remain strong, and possibly still the strongest due to the freedom of movement, but it would not be uncounterable.




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