156 replies to this topic

[ukgamer23]

I really don't envy the life of a game developer, it must be very disheartening to be constantly moaned at by your player-base. How much is enough for the MMO gamer? Will you or I ever be pleased?
"oh this is too easy"
"this is too hard"
"this is too grindy"
"there isnt enough grind, nothing to do"
"too much to do"
"too random"
  "ugh, such boring loot we all have the same"
  and it just keeps going.

The fact is they cant please everyone, no one can. Do we have to jump on every decision? Every piece of content? It will never be perfect for us all.
Look at the clock-tower, the dev actually apologized for making it too hard? Are we all that pathetic that any challenge in a video game is cried about so much, we need a sorry note from the creator?

Most of us gamers now are 18-30, we grew up with games...cant we all just grow up in general? Sure post constructive posts about issues, but leave the crying in the cot with the bottle.

[Psydrome]

Everyone demands too much these days... its quite sad...

[Kymeric]

I know it wasn't exactly how you meant it, but taken quite literally, yes, many MMORPG players demand too much.

I mean that in terms of sheer quantity.  Players come to MMORPGs expecting to be able to play hours a day every day, and even more on weekends.  It translates into a demand for hundreds of hours of content to be provided and be consumed in a very short time span, leaving a crowd asking for more.

Sixty bucks worth of chocolate is going to be sixty bucks worth of chocolate.  If you insist on getting the bulk box of chocolates so you can gorge yourself on a large quantity, that sixty bucks is going to have a lot of filler and going to taste like it. but you can consume large quantities and still have some left.

A chocolate company comes along and says, "Hey, we're not going to do filler to artificially increase the bulk of the chocolate.  It's going to taste great, because of its purity."  Then a group of people pay their sixty bucks, consume the smaller box in one sitting, and cry that they aren't satisfied.

Same amount of actual cacao in each box, though.

When something is billed as Godiva, gets lobbied by people who want Tootsie Rolls to make cheaper "chocolate", and starts looking like it's going to end up Hershey, people on both sides are going to be unhappy.

Edited by Kymeric, 01 December 2012 - 05:51 PM.

[Krazzar]

The problem isn't that people demand too much, it's that their demands are paradoxes and they expect the game to cater to them exclusively in every minute aspect.  MMOs now contain many different activities and different ways to complete different activities to cater to as many people as possible, but most see that as a slap in the face because it isn't exactly what they want. A copious amount of conspiracy theories on how the developers are secretly planning to screw everyone over for quick cash "soon" with something we don't know about doesn't help either.  Ten years ago the tin foil industry wasn't held up by the gaming industry.

[Kymeric]

On a whole the demands are paradoxes, but not necessarily from any given individual.  Okay, some people don't really know what they want, and will offer contradictory complaints, but there are plenty of issues that most people are very clear on.  It's just that some are clearly on one side, and others are on the opposite.

And that's one of the other big problems.  MMORPGs can't seem to target a given audience and stick with it.  Everyone expects every MMORPG to work like they want, instead of finding the one that suits them.

Case in point.  With so many games that have end game raiding, why come to a game where the devs have specifically decided to make small group dungeons and not provide 20 man raids and whine about it for weeks?  Who goes to a Italian restaurant and complains to the manager there's no Egg Foo Yung on the menu?

[Arewn]

I think the biggest problem with peoples views or demands for MMORPGs is that they expect them to be on par with current non-MMO games. They don't realize that the MMO part of the genre actually causes significant limitations, both technically and systemically.

[Daesu]

I enjoy the complaints because it shows that people still care about the game.  You should look into the forums of those really dead games.

And as a developer, you get a lot of feedback on people's perception on your work.  Granted you have to sort through the feedback and decide on what to do (since you can't please everyone), it is still better to have constant feedback than not to have them at all.  If your game is unpopular and dead in the waters, you would get almost no feedback.

Lastly, apologizing is usually the easiest thing to do, compared to coming up with a fix for everything that people want.

[Dasryn]

if you want to get really deep, the internet is to blame for everything wrong with today's society.

instant gratification.

you want an answer?  google it.  bam, instant.  

want new content?  no need to leave the house to go to the store, just patch it over the network and have us download it.

want to buy things but cant find it in the store?  no need to leave your home, order it over Amazon

smart phones - fast internet - 4G - more GB

the list goes on.

but guess what?  we cant live without it.  the internet is here to stay, we are locked in.  life cannot go back to the 80s.

so yes, society today demand more because they feel entitled to more and they are constantly behavior reinforced by the convenience and ease of access that the internet provides.

[Kymeric]

Rickter, on 01 December 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

but guess what?  we cant live without it.  the internet is here to stay, we are locked in.  life cannot go back to the 80s.

I'm wondering how old you are.

People were pretty fixated on instant gratification in the 80s, without the internet's help.

[Red_Falcon]

I'm 25 and generally pleased in most games I played.
Some games just weren't for me and I abandoned them; for instance WoW was too easy / too child-oriented for me so I quit - but I did not hang out in the forums to troll or cry or anything.
As for SP games I try them before I buy them so it's safe to say I never wasted a cent.

I believe a lot of people found complaining to be their new MMO.
Log on this forum, cry about this, cry about that, flame this guy, troll that guy, get super mad at that other guy, cooldown, log off.
It's their playing session.
Game world: the forum
Servers: the forum sections
Character: their nickname
Classes: moany teenager / the guy with bad grammar / the elitist / the jerk / etc

[Jason Seven]

ukgamer23, on 01 December 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

snip

Of course they demand too much but developers try to meet this demand because they want to maximize profit. Look at what ArenaNet is doing right now. This whole change in direction says it all. Even though it's a rather sorry excuse for true gear progression which other games do so much better, they are still trying to get these simple minded people back because that's where the money is at. I really laughed a lot at those who whined about the clock tower. That developer seems to be lacking a spine if he had to apologize for making something challenging in a game that is otherwise extremely easy. How someone couldn't accomplish this jumping puzzle, I cannot understand. Then again, these are MMORPG players we are talking about and a vast majority of those are people who probably only ever played games that require you to push A over and over with elaborate tutorials and instruction DVDs on how to play. Truly pathetic and I have nothing but spite for such people. While I'm someone who thoroughly enjoys being challenged in video games and loves getting punched in the face repeatedly by a games difficulty this isn't what the majority wants. All they want is to see numbers steadily grow and be rewarded constantly, instantly if possible. This also has to be achieved at a very easy difficulty with bare minimum challenge provided. They don't care about learning how to play or become skillful at a video game. While it's true that most of us are in the older age bracket, the new generation of gamers is long since on the rise and nowadays games cater to them, not to us. Believe it or not but most video games in general are designed with the middle class in mind, specifically the middle class of the USA. If you look at these people, they have it very easy in life unlike others who struggle to not sink into poverty or those who already are. This is their core audience and since they are so used to things being rather easy and not filled with problems this affects them while playing video games. They cannot deal with problematic and challenging circumstances, it scares them away because they are unable to come up with a solution to something that they've never ever had to deal with. Why else do you think are they constantly asking for guides and pre-made builds? Coming up with a solution by themselves doesn't even cross their mind and even if they did they'd simply give up after they failed for the first time. Creating a map on their own for farming Orichalcum and other materials? Unheard of! Instead they wait for someone to upload one. Just like you said, they are truly pathetic.

[Dasryn]

Kymeric, on 01 December 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

I'm wondering how old you are.

People were pretty fixated on instant gratification in the 80s, without the internet's help.

im 26, i was born in the 80's but dont remember it.  and yeah im sure they had instant gratification back then, but my point is, the internet amplified it beyond anything comprehensible.

Red_Falcon, on 01 December 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

I'm 25 and generally pleased in most games I played.
Some games just weren't for me and I abandoned them; for instance WoW was too easy / too child-oriented for me so I quit - but I did not hang out in the forums to troll or cry or anything.
As for SP games I try them before I buy them so it's safe to say I never wasted a cent.

I believe a lot of people found complaining to be their new MMO.
Log on this forum, cry about this, cry about that, flame this guy, troll that guy, get super mad at that other guy, cooldown, log off.
It's their playing session.
Game world: the forum
Servers: the forum sections
Character: their nickname
Classes: moany teenager / the guy with bad grammar / the elitist / the jerk / etc

lulz, amazing analogy

[LIVESTRONGG]

People want what they want, companies need to find the perfect balance of that.

[Zero_Soulreaver]

I don't think people want too much, they just know what they can get away with. If a developer decides they are going to focus so heavily on community response then of course it causes chaos.  Their needs to be some kind of order to keep the game in tact.

In GW2's case, the major problem is the fact that Anet are too busy following everything everyone says. They have been trying to please instead of just making a stable game.  Most MMOs do not do this and don't patch things on the fly to suit the needs of certain people.

An example is the Halloween event.  People were already annoyed at the drop rate, so many decided "ok let's not buy those chests anymore".  The problem escalated when Anet suddenly decided to "fix" the problem by adding new free chests, why is this an issue? Well people felt even more cheated than they did when they first bought the chest.  First, you feel cheated for losing out on money then you feel more cheated they released a patch to fix it and you could have just saved money in the first place.

Edited by Zero_Soulreaver, 01 December 2012 - 07:09 PM.

[Shizu]

It's an unavoidable problem for mainstream MMOs. They try to please everyone, wich is impossible.
The community as a whole may seem schizophrenic, whining about something and the complete opposite in the same thread.
But these games are played by a lot of different people with completely different tastes, so you are going to see complants about everything.

This is why the genre needs more developers like CCP. Sure, they had their fair share of blunders, but they built a very loyal fanbase, still going strong after 8 years.
They will never pull off WoW numbers, but they aren't subject to massive swings in subscriptions like any major MMO. It's a very specific genre, targeted to a very specific audience. You know from day 1 what you are getting yourself into and you know from day 1 if you like it or not.

I really wish more developers would follow CCP's example, instead of pulling off 'generic mainstream garbage n. 278201"

Edited by Shizu, 01 December 2012 - 09:20 PM.

[stayBlind]

That's why you don't make an MMORPG.

You make a CORPG.

Edited by stayBlind, 01 December 2012 - 09:42 PM.

[Dasryn]

Shizu, on 01 December 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

They will never pull off WoW numbers, but they aren't subject to massive swings in subscriptions like any major MMO. It's a very specific genre, targeted to a very specific audience. You know from day 1 what you are getting yourself into and you know from day 1 if you like it or not.

I really wish more developers would follow CCP's example, instead of pulling off 'generic mainstream garbage n. 278201"

but thats the thing.  i believe ANet secured the funding it did by promising their investors a more ambitious approach with GW2.  EvE sits around 400k subscribers and this is recent numbers.  thats successful for an mmo and it has a great track record, but when you promise an ambitious goal in there like ANet did?  well you are in a different ball game.  they are catering to a large amount of people because they have to in order to realize the goal they set for themselves.

its like swtor creator said: "you dont make a 300million dollar game and not cater to the majority"

Edited by unraveled, 02 December 2012 - 01:49 AM.
Removed reply to deleted content.

[Millimidget]

ukgamer23, on 01 December 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

I really don't envy the life of a game developer, it must be very disheartening to be constantly moaned at by your player-base. How much is enough for the MMO gamer? Will you or I ever be pleased?
"oh this is too easy"
"this is too hard"
"this is too grindy"
"there isnt enough grind, nothing to do"
"too much to do"
"too random"
  "ugh, such boring loot we all have the same"
  and it just keeps going.

Is it surprising that everyone holds their own opinion, and that those opinions don't necessarily align for the convenience of developers?

stayBlind, on 01 December 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

You make a CORPG.

You mean like TOR?

That didn't work out so well, either.

Edited by unraveled, 02 December 2012 - 01:49 AM.
Removed reply to deleted content.

[Sword Hammer Axe]

Try and look at all the fanmail they receive as well. For every nay, there's luckily also a yay, and though we may tend to focus on the nays (they are what makes you realize the mistakes after all, allowing you to correct them) the yays are still very present. It's the same with music, cinema, and everything else with fans/haters/fanaters (no idea what else to call the fans that hate )

[Blixcoe]

I loved the mad king jumping puzzle! Too bad they're not going to do them anymore
In all honesty though, it wasn't even that hard. I don't get the complaining.....

Edited by Blixcoe, 01 December 2012 - 10:32 PM.

[Ualtar]

Krazzar, on 01 December 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

The problem isn't that people demand too much, it's that their demands are paradoxes and they expect the game to cater to them exclusively in every minute aspect.  MMOs now contain many different activities and different ways to complete different activities to cater to as many people as possible, but most see that as a slap in the face because it isn't exactly what they want. A copious amount of conspiracy theories on how the developers are secretly planning to screw everyone over for quick cash "soon" with something we don't know about doesn't help either.  Ten years ago the tin foil industry wasn't held up by the gaming industry.

I think this is more politics then anything else, especially in the US.  Over the last decade or two there has been more backlash and hate directed at large corporations.  Politicians try to make them out to be these evil people trying to take your money in any way possible.  This culminated in the Occupy movement which was directed at just about nobody, and had no real goals other then to call rich people and businesses evil.

That mentality has permeated just about everything.  Now gaming manufactures are these evil faceless corporations trying to take all the gamers hard earned nickles.    

Yes to much is expected from MMOs.  They are expected to satisfy every gaming/entertainment need and desire.  Rather then have multiple entertainment outlets to many people want one game to make them happy in all their off time.  In a perfect world, each MMO should satisfy its own niche in the market.  Sadly, WOW killed that idea and the standard is millions of customers rather then 500,000 or less that enjoy the style of a certain MMO.

[MazingerZ]

Managing customer expectations is part of running a successful business.

Edited by unraveled, 02 December 2012 - 01:51 AM.
Not a mod.

[Asudementio]

ukgamer23, on 01 December 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

I really don't envy the life of a game developer, it must be very disheartening to be constantly moaned at by your player-base. How much is enough for the MMO gamer? Will you or I ever be pleased?
"oh this is too easy"
"this is too hard"
"this is too grindy"
"there isnt enough grind, nothing to do"
"too much to do"
"too random"
  "ugh, such boring loot we all have the same"
  and it just keeps going.

The fact is they cant please everyone, no one can. Do we have to jump on every decision? Every piece of content? It will never be perfect for us all.
Look at the clock-tower, the dev actually apologized for making it too hard? Are we all that pathetic that any challenge in a video game is cried about so much, we need a sorry note from the creator?

Most of us gamers now are 18-30, we grew up with games...cant we all just grow up in general? Sure post constructive posts about issues, but leave the crying in the cot with the bottle.

Yes MMO players demand too much of games because the nostalgia and experiences that have shaped their love of the genre has left their expectations inflated.

[Helliion]

How bout: Devs promise too much?

[Fizzypop]

You say grow up...yet you are the one calling others names by saying they are crying and comparing them to babies. Isn't that rude and insulting? All customers offer feedback. Facebook? They get feedback all the time on new changes....>.> this isn't limited to mmos or even the internet.

MazingerZ, on 01 December 2012 - 10:46 PM, said:

Managing customer expectations is part of running a successful business.

Exactly. This is what all companies have to deal with that's why they hire customer service reps. Has no one here every contacted a CS center before?

Edited by unraveled, 02 December 2012 - 01:51 AM.
Amended quote.

[Vexd]

I remember when you had to buy a game on a CD in a massive cardboard box off the shelf in a store, and if it was a terrible game/didn't work, tough luck.

I guess pre-broadband days game developers actually had to finish their game before they released it lol.

[Touche]

No they're not. This is a business.  If they want to be successful they have to put up with it an satisfy the majority.

[Cutthroat]

stayBlind, on 01 December 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

That's why you don't make an MMORPG.

You make a CORPG.

I was just thinking about this today. I was very happy with GW1. I would have been happy with a GW 1.5 that was released earlier with no underwater content. Quaggan say QQ? I feel like GW2 was a little too ambitious. It has potential to improve a lot, I'd like to especially see the rendering issues gone. Currently my friends keep me playing. I'm glad I gave WvW another chance (got a new account..). But in general this is how I feel about GW2 compared to GW1:

Spoiler

Spoiler

I miss the district system GW1 has because I like that illusion of game being very alive. Oh well, looking forward to Wintersday! I'll be pleased if there's a dungeon like the Mad King one.

[Nox_Aeterna]

I totally disagree MMO players , usually , demand to much.

I blame the companies , for never trying to hit one market , is always: "Everyone should have something to do in our game."

That does not work , because one side is always trying to pull them more to itself , middle ground does not satisfy people.

They should target a market and stick with it , instead they keep running around trying to please both.

Unfortunately i dont see this changing, after all it is just business and this appear to give more money , do not matter how much people complain.

[Ualtar]

Nox_Aeterna, on 02 December 2012 - 12:18 AM, said:

I totally disagree MMO players , usually , demand to much.

I blame the companies , for never trying to hit one market , is always: "Everyone should have something to do in our game."

That does not work , because one side is always trying to pull them more to itself , middle ground does not satisfy people.

They should target a market and stick with it , instead they keep running around trying to please both.

Unfortunately i dont see this changing, after all it is just business and this appear to give more money , do not matter how much people complain.

Even if a MMO aims at a certain market, they will still get a group of people that come around to try and get the MMO changed to they way they want it to be.