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Do MMO players demand too much?


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#121 Neerlander

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 03:09 PM

i look at this from (us) humans as base perspective. yes GW2 is a great game. yet... we are an evolving species.

meaning what we like on day 1 isnt the same if we (re)experience the same on day 14,
and this is the way the cookie crumbles imo.

after spending time, the way we look at a game changes. this is because we change - simple as that.

do we demand too much?

no , at the moment, there is no  game or mmo that changes with the same pase as our (gaming) experience changes.

#122 Heart Collector

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 03:12 PM

View PostTreble, on 11 December 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

This is a really stupid statement. GW2 isn't any more explorable than other MMO's. EQ had some of the most explorable areas in MMO's. Exploring in FFXI was a practice in amazement and excitement, because every single zone was almost completely different from each other (I still remember the first time I emerged from Crawler's Nest and caught a glimpse of Rolanberry Fields). Hell, even WoW had a ton of exploration to be had before TBC and flying mounts came about.

No, lack of exploration isn't why people are quitting and/or dissatisfied with GW2. No, it's not just the MMO locusts who are dissatisfied with GW2.

Your assumptions scream fanboy.

I guess that the people who are quitting are mostly:

- traditional MMO fans
- unhappy GW1 fans
- more casual game-hoppers
- morenitpicky players who find the game flaws to be game breaking (not saying this in a negative way BTW)
- people who simply discovered that this kind of game doesn't appeal to them

Bear in mind this is my own "grouping" of the people who quit and may not be actually true - and I'm not viewing them negatively, their reasons for quitting are just as legitimate as my reasons as a fan for staying. I just don't like it when a whiny minority of them repeatedly swamp every second thread with their negativity. I mean, why keep whining on a forum, just get on with your lives, it's just a game after all (not referring to you Treble BTW) :)

Edited by Heart Collector, 11 December 2012 - 03:12 PM.


#123 Treble

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 04:00 PM

I was personally in this game for the long haul as a WvW player, but ANet going back on a few of their promises as well as a severe lack of any significant updates/fixes to WvW issues got old very fast. I'll wait to see if ANet gets back on track to actually caring about their customers before FFXIV:ARR comes out.

But blanket statements are foolish in general.

Edited by Treble, 11 December 2012 - 04:01 PM.


#124 Robsy128

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:21 PM

Do MMO players demand too much? Yes, yes they do.

#125 AureliusRex

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:32 PM

View PostArquenya, on 02 December 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

While that's true, ANet isn't exactly a company that makes its first MMO with just very little alternatives out there.

Whether GW2 is good or has a problem or not isn't really an issue of developers, I think the strategic management of ANet is the determining factor here. I don't really think the ones actually making the game have a lot of influence. If you read the comments by former ANet employees you'd see that it's quite a hierarchic organization. Add in shareholders and NCSoft and see what we got. Some may like it, some are more or less disappointed.

Yeah when I look at the game GW2, I see a product that was very much optimized to attract release day sales.  The game feels very much unfinished and its obvious that the majority of the attention near the end was given to the lower level content that people had access to in the betas.  The product had received a ton of hype and media attention and Anet decided to cash in at the peak of that hype.  Its unfortunate that releasing an unfinished game is perfectly acceptable in today's industry.

To answer the OP, you reap what you sow.  Anet never identified a core audience for its product, or more likely abandoned the core audience they initially appealed to and tried to appeal to "everyone".  Well they got their payday with that strategy, but they also got "everyone", and everyone actually consists of different groups of people that want very different things.

Anet is now simply living with the consequences of the decisions it made about this game.  In fact the expectations from the gamers pretty much forced Anet to take a position and declare their go-foward strategy, which I think they very much were trying to avoid.  Its kinda like a man dating two women.  For a time he gets the best of both worlds, but when they get wind of one another it really hits the fan and he's gotta choose and hope he didn't lose them both.

#126 runemima

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:31 AM

View PostSwoopeh, on 06 December 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:


omgs--i laughed and laughed and laughed!!! ESP after reading this thread... it's soooo truuuu.

#127 Own Age Myname

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:35 AM

All I demand is that Anet keeps the promises they made and not change their basic design choices. I guess that's a huge thing and I'm entitled!!!

#128 Swoopeh

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:28 AM

View PostOwn Age Myname, on 12 December 2012 - 01:35 AM, said:

All I demand is that Anet keeps the promises they made and not change their basic design choices. I guess that's a huge thing and I'm entitled!!!

Informing us of their vision for the game doesn't equal a promise. And did they really go back on that vision with the changes they made? People have just been extrapolating possible scenarios of what *might* happen were they to keep adding new tiers and reacting as if that had already happened. But we've gone through this sort of argument over and over and, even though Anet has given a perfectly reasonable explanation for the extra tier, people just refuse to not make a huge deal out of it because, ya know, internet.

View PostTreble, on 12 December 2012 - 02:24 AM, said:

And every single fanboy on these forums raged about people rushing during the first 2 weeks, and refused to notice the fact that people were outleveling entire maps just by exploring. The exp gain in the game is so high that you end up leveling no matter what you do.

While I agree that the exp gain is quite high, stating that people were outleveling maps just by exploring as "fact" is a gross exaggeration. On every single toon I've leveled I've had to do everything in a map, including most of the events, to be able to continue to the next area. At times I've had to do crafting to make up for a 2 level difference, or temporarily visit a different zone if I didn't feel like crafting.

But I don't disagree with your sentiment. Personally I don't understand how people got bored so fast but that doesn't mean their opinion is invalid or they're doing it wrong. To each their own - I've had people go back to WoW from GW2 and enjoy that while I can't bring myself to play WoW anymore after GW2, it's just what people prefer in a game and whether they enjoy the systems in place. Whether you still enjoy the game or not, noone is really wrong here. It's just disappointing to see people leave when you're still having fun and that can lead to frustration as well.

#129 Own Age Myname

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:28 PM

View PostSwoopeh, on 12 December 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

Informing us of their vision for the game doesn't equal a promise. And did they really go back on that vision with the changes they made? People have just been extrapolating possible scenarios of what *might* happen were they to keep adding new tiers and reacting as if that had already happened. But we've gone through this sort of argument over and over and, even though Anet has given a perfectly reasonable explanation for the extra tier, people just refuse to not make a huge deal out of it because, ya know, internet.

Just because "it was a vision" means I should accept it when they do a complete 180 on major design philosophies? Their reasoning has nothing to do with it, it's the fact that I bought their product on the notion the gear grind would be similiar to GW1, hell it was already pushing it with exotics. But no, I'm some ungrateful kid who makes a big deal because "internet"? No, I've just been a very loyal customer for ANet for the past 7 years and spent 60$ of my already small budget at the time on this game. The way they are changing the direction of the game is going to kill it, if you want to let that happen and white-knight our valid opinions..well...

#130 Treble

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:32 AM

View PostSwoopeh, on 12 December 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

While I agree that the exp gain is quite high, stating that people were outleveling maps just by exploring as "fact" is a gross exaggeration. On every single toon I've leveled I've had to do everything in a map, including most of the events, to be able to continue to the next area. At times I've had to do crafting to make up for a 2 level difference, or temporarily visit a different zone if I didn't feel like crafting.
Ah, you didn't keep your crafting up. I include crafting because most of the people accusing us of rushing kept saying we weren't completing all the content available at our level, including crafting and storyline. The irony was that completing everything, including crafting, was the fastest way to level up and you had people like myself who were Lv40+ in a Lv30 zone that wasn't anywhere near complete.

I remember telling them how stupid they were for telling us we were doing it wrong by doing exactly what they thought a non-rushing "completionist" would do. Then I realized people like Culture Shock are just so blinded by their rose-tinted goggles that they absolutely must insist that the game and its pacing is perfect, and everyone else isn't playing correctly.

Edited by Treble, 13 December 2012 - 05:33 AM.


#131 Swoopeh

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:39 AM

View PostOwn Age Myname, on 12 December 2012 - 10:28 PM, said:

Just because "it was a vision" means I should accept it when they do a complete 180 on major design philosophies? Their reasoning has nothing to do with it, it's the fact that I bought their product on the notion the gear grind would be similiar to GW1, hell it was already pushing it with exotics. But no, I'm some ungrateful kid who makes a big deal because "internet"? No, I've just been a very loyal customer for ANet for the past 7 years and spent 60$ of my already small budget at the time on this game. The way they are changing the direction of the game is going to kill it, if you want to let that happen and white-knight our valid opinions..well...

I can understand your point of view and that you're disappointed by what you expected and what you got, I just don't see it as such a huge issue and I think some people may be making a mountain out of a mole hill. Anet's explanation stated that the extra tier was something they intended to originally put in the game and that they agree that getting it it a bit too grindy so we'll have to see if and how they change it. Of course I want the best for the game but I don't see how this is going to kill it. Maybe on a personal level but that depends on what you enjoy - do you enjoy the game systems, the combat, the events and the dungeons? If so why not keep on enjoying them and not worry about a small stat increase that does virtually nothing except in the higher level fractals which are only a tiny subset of the game? As soon as they start implementing a real progression system where you can't do new dungeons unless you're kitted out you can quit and rightly so, in the mean time you've had entertainment for your money :)

#132 Stargate

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 07:23 AM

Well this might sound odd, but I think you are both right more or less. By that I did NOT mean that Culture shock is a fanboy(she is a nice woman) though Treble also have a point about GW2.

View PostCulture Shock, on 11 December 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

I'm not making this stuff up, I had some guildies who told me this was why they played and they were lvl 80s in the first 2 weeks and are now on to other games.  Haven't seen them since.  So your time in GW2 will depend entirely on what type of gamer/person you are, not on how good or bad the game is, because the game is clearly above standard and has a lot more to offer to "the right types of players".  The rest will only enjoy this game for 2 weeks or so and there is a thread here where some of the min max players said this same thing BEFORE launch.
True. I am powerplayer :cool: . I like endgame though I am not 12 years old ;) :

Spoiler

View PostTreble, on 11 December 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

No, lack of exploration isn't why people are quitting and/or dissatisfied with GW2. No, it's not just the MMO locusts who are dissatisfied with GW2.
Actually this is also a reason. My brother is absolutely not hardcore gamer. I asked my brother WHY do you not like GW2 since you complained about WOW that is time sink? He said that he thinks Guild wars 2 PvE is very boring!

Best part of Guild Wars 2 is for me Mist PvP. Problem is my budget gaming laptop can not run well PvP the Mist.

That said I have been very patient with computer upgrading, but I'll buy a super Haswell CPU desktop computer in late 2013. There is really not much performance difference between a Sandybridge or IVY generation CPU, but when Haswell comes out we have a crystal clear winner though it will not be some groundbreaking shocking improvement.

The only impressive thing in Guild wars 2 is the Mist PvP with up to 2000 players and maybe I give it a serious try the day I buy the desktop computer. My casual brother also thinks that only PvP the Mist is fun in GW2. Right now we want to try Neverwinter MMO that seem to have great PvE and is released in 2013. Neverwinter MMO is based on both Action combat and Dungeons Dragons Forgotten Realms Fantasy world and is totally free MMO.

Edited by Stargate, 15 December 2012 - 07:50 AM.


#133 Impmon

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 12:59 AM

If you ate at a restaurant and ordered a steak & they gave you a hotdog and said it was a steak would you go back ?

Many mmo's operate that way.  

They tell you one thing and do the opposite and in some cases stealth nerf aspects & look like fools when the players figure it out for themselves.  

If you pay for something to be a certain way it should be delivered as such.  If they do not then I don't pay for it.  Simple enough.

#134 Grimful

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:38 PM

MMOs have large player bases, each wants something different and some are (much more) vocal than others.

Usually if somebody complains and then it's changed to fit that, then the person who complained won't be the one whining anymore, it'll be somebody new.

So it's not that MMO players want to much (though many do) it's simply the fact that it's impossible to please everyone and on the internet people feel the freedom to be much more obnoxious and argumentative than they are in real life.

Edited by Kamatsu, 07 January 2013 - 11:27 PM.
Removal of quote & response to deleted post


#135 Turambar

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 05:38 PM

Think it's a function of size of playerbase directly proportional to "when players go bad" effect.

1. More players = more bad reactions
2. More players = more conflicting expectations of the design

MMOs attact thousands to millions of interacting players who love to o'pine!

Edited by Turambar, 05 January 2013 - 05:39 PM.


#136 Specialz

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 03:20 AM

I just think a subset of MMO players are just entitled whinny kids. Why do I say that, on reddit there was a post saying that free content we get for free, is just Anet trying to keep us playing the game, then he goes on to try and justify his idiotic entitled rambling. Was the person technically right, of course, but the amount of value that GW2 has given me for only 60 bucks is far more than ANY game in history except all those f2p game but they all have their issues. They want us to spend money by giving us content, but they are not making us buy anything to enjoy the content, the only people that feel the need to are the inpatient "I want it all" clan members.

With that said, yes, MMO players (the ones more likely to on forums) some of them are too demanding and will never be happy, all they will do is look for faults.

#137 Astalnar

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 10:33 AM

View Postukgamer23, on 01 December 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

Most of us gamers now are 18-30, we grew up with games...cant we all just grow up in general? Sure post constructive posts about issues, but leave the crying in the cot with the bottle.

As you nicely said, most of us grew up playing games. With that said we also developed our taste for games. And we are quite used to certain standards at this point. Most of us, I would like to believe, do not fall for false promises. Most of us also demands certain level of quality from the dev if they want our money.
So, ignoring the part about too easy/too hard, for I see it only as complete waste of time and whine, lets focus on the part about complaining.
When people complain about things around a certain game, it is mostly just criticism, it sounds like whining because they feel they are entitled and they fail at the constructive part of their whining.

And lets be honest.WoW is dominating MMO genre for so long that it automaticly gets compared to everything, even though even WoW was not perfect when released. What it was, was more polished than all the games before it when it came out. And then. they had 8 years of time to polish it to near perfection to say it in this way.
At this point devs are not fighting against the polish of WoW, but the nostalgia of perfection at release compared to WoW. True, some people never played WoW, some probably started later on. But in any case, they at least heard or read when the paralels are made with other MMOs, that WoW is polished and the other is not so much.

That is the reason why it feels like players demand too much. If a dev at some MMO in future just took his time and polished and perfected it to last tiny grain even thought the mechanics would be fairly simplistic and story not very great the game would pass. Because it would deliver a well rounded, complete basis and foundation on which it is possible to build upon.

#138 raspberry jam

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 10:44 AM

View PostAstalnar, on 07 January 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

Most of us, I would like to believe, do not fall for false promises.
I find that most of us fall for false promises time and time again. Think of 2012 and how many games were insanely hyped during that year. Even the ones that were good made promises that they did not keep.

#139 Astalnar

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 11:17 AM

View Postraspberry jam, on 07 January 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

I find that most of us fall for false promises time and time again. Think of 2012 and how many games were insanely hyped during that year. Even the ones that were good made promises that they did not keep.
True, but then again the gamers did not take it quietly, but were instead quite vocal when the devs were caught blatantly lying. Now, the question is if them lying will have any repercussions on their future projects.
I for certain know that Bioware lost all its trust with me, I did not buy ME3, event though I longed for conclusion of the story and enjoyed greatly previous 2 games. Same goes for Arenanet event thought in that case, I bought GW2 because of a friend.

#140 raspberry jam

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:42 PM

View PostAstalnar, on 07 January 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

True, but then again the gamers did not take it quietly, but were instead quite vocal when the devs were caught blatantly lying. Now, the question is if them lying will have any repercussions on their future projects.
I for certain know that Bioware lost all its trust with me, I did not buy ME3, event though I longed for conclusion of the story and enjoyed greatly previous 2 games. Same goes for Arenanet event thought in that case, I bought GW2 because of a friend.
You should get ME3, if you enjoyed ME2 you'll enjoy ME3 as well. Many of the criticisms about it was quite exaggerated. For example, many of the choices/successful quests you did in previous games did have an effect in ME3, even if it was quite a small one, and partially anonymized by the EMS value. The only things that I found actually bad was that you had to play multiplayer to max out the EMS (now, I have to say, multiplayer is pretty fun, but should not be forced on people), and, of course, the ending.

I don't believe in losing trust in developers. Or rather, I should be more precise... I don't believe in trusting developers in the first place. They always lie to some degree... Some more than others. ANet lied a lot. But when/if they release GW3, in 2020 or so, will I buy it? Maybe, but if I do, it has nothing to do with how much faith I have in ANet.

#141 Treble

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 03:15 PM

TotalBiscuit mentioned something in one of his videos (I think it was about WarZ) that I feel is exactly what's wrong with the gaming community nowadays.

What happened to gamers defending gamers? The whole gaming scene, especially MMO's, is so filled with people defending companies despite these companies going back on promises and making sub par games. It's a fanboy culture.

Instead of gamers protecting each other and making sure we don't get screwed by gaming companies just trying to make a quick buck out of us, they constantly troll each other and defend the companies instead. That's why we have crap like day-one DLC (BioWare), locked disc content (Capcom), cash shop gambling (ArenaNet), pay2win (almost every f2p game in existence), etc.

#142 FoxBat

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 09:06 PM

View PostTreble, on 07 January 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

Instead of gamers protecting each other and making sure we don't get screwed by gaming companies just trying to make a quick buck out of us, they constantly troll each other and defend the companies instead. That's why we have crap like day-one DLC (BioWare), locked disc content (Capcom), cash shop gambling (ArenaNet), pay2win (almost every f2p game in existence), etc.

What goes on among the small minority of people talking about videogames online is pretty irrelevant  compared to how many people these schemes work on.

#143 I'm Squirrel

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 09:23 PM

Well, I don't know about other MMO players. But I do know that hardcore fans of GW1, demanded  GW2 should be just GW1 with open world, more races, maybe a few more professions and extra features.

That's pretty much it. It's not much. It didn't need an overhaul. It was pretty much innovation in itself, with its unique combat and skill system, along with being the most aesthetically pleasing "MMORPG" out there. None of us knew ArenaNet would create an utter failure of an MMORPG after their success with GW1.

#144 Treble

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 09:37 PM

View PostFoxBat, on 07 January 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

What goes on among the small minority of people talking about videogames online is pretty irrelevant  compared to how many people these schemes work on.
Which isn't how it used to be at all. Plus the mass outrage with Mass Effect 3's ending is proof enough that the "small minority" of gamers do have the power to change things.

Edited by Treble, 07 January 2013 - 09:38 PM.


#145 FoxBat

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 06:00 AM

View PostTreble, on 07 January 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

Which isn't how it used to be at all.

More of a lack of entrepreneurship among video game devs. It's taken a while for this business to grow to where it is now. For example, as Zynga can attest to, just throwing in P2W items nilly willy is not a guaranteed recipe for long-term success. There are right and wrong ways to do it. And that itself was a novelty back when people thought you could only make money from subs in MMOs.

DLC of any kind is just plain "new" tech, now that internet access has become ubiquitous with this generation of consoles. Suits have put alot of pressure to do these because gamers so far are not willing to pay more for than $60 for their video game boxes, even as game budgets and inflation are on the rise.

Edited by FoxBat, 08 January 2013 - 06:01 AM.


#146 kendro1200

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 06:21 AM

View PostFoxBat, on 08 January 2013 - 06:00 AM, said:

More of a lack of entrepreneurship among video game devs. It's taken a while for this business to grow to where it is now. For example, as Zynga can attest to, just throwing in P2W items nilly willy is not a guaranteed recipe for long-term success. There are right and wrong ways to do it. And that itself was a novelty back when people thought you could only make money from subs in MMOs.

DLC of any kind is just plain "new" tech, now that internet access has become ubiquitous with this generation of consoles. Suits have put alot of pressure to do these because gamers so far are not willing to pay more for than $60 for their video game boxes, even as game budgets and inflation are on the rise.

A good chunk of game budget inflation stems from poor management though (This is true in most things related to software).  There have been many good games put out on extremely low budgets.  "Blockbuster" or "big budget" games are items that are often made with the sole intention of no real direction in the game itself and just to make money off already tried gimmicks and convincing people they should pay to play re-skinned gimmicks.  If instead of selling out to the pressure of ignorant investors and CEOs, real developers, programmers, and story writers stuck to their original ideas, budgets wouldn't be so bad on those big games, and those games would sell better.
The Darksiders 1, Minecraft, FTL, Final Fantasy.  These were all games, the latter a series, that started on nothing but a shoe string budget, and proved that you can make something awesome if you stick to the plan.  Final Fantasy is particularly special in that regard, because the first one was a last ditch effort to make a game that didn't flop, and it was largely free from outside meddling because it was a last ditch effort.  The hopes and dreams of an entire company hoping to survive in the infantile gaming industry rode on that game and it developed into a huge series.  To this day the FF games still do their own thing, ignoring many of the gimmicks trending around in favor of their own recipes.

#147 Treble

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 02:59 PM

View Postkendro1200, on 08 January 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

To this day the FF games still do their own thing, ignoring many of the gimmicks trending around in favor of their own recipes.
And this is why I'll always be a Square-Enix fan, despite them not coming out with any good Final Fantasy titles since XI.

Edited by Treble, 08 January 2013 - 03:07 PM.


#148 Specialz

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:37 PM

View PostI, on 07 January 2013 - 09:23 PM, said:

Well, I don't know about other MMO players. But I do know that hardcore fans of GW1, demanded  GW2 should be just GW1 with open world, more races, maybe a few more professions and extra features.

That's pretty much it. It's not much. It didn't need an overhaul. It was pretty much innovation in itself, with its unique combat and skill system, along with being the most aesthetically pleasing "MMORPG" out there. None of us knew ArenaNet would create an utter failure of an MMORPG after their success with GW1.
I loved guild wars 1, but I am so glad they moved around from that game. Guild wars 1 transplanted into an open world setting would be been pretty much swtor but b2p. Not everybody is going to be happy about how guild wars 2 turned out, but it is their own problem.

Just like some people hated the fact you could jump and no autofollow during combat, if those people are stuck in the past they can just stick to the past which is still around. Honestly, if guild wars 2 was just guild wars 1.5, it probably would have failed faster than than those other 2 recent MMOs.

Edited by Specialz, 09 January 2013 - 11:39 PM.


#149 SpellWeaver

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 10:35 AM

Not that we demand too much, it's just that everyone will complain about Something. You could make a perfect game, A perfect video, a perfect anything, but there will be someone to complain about something.

#150 licho

licho

    Asuran Acolyte

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 01:26 PM

It may blow your mind but people are different. ;-)

Every player have it owns differents.
Maybe some really enjoy a grind. :devil:
Others just need working pvp module to stick with game for years.

If LoL can exist so long why cant gw2?




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