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Do MMO players demand too much?


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#31 Dasryn

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 04:46 AM

View PostNox_Aeterna, on 02 December 2012 - 12:18 AM, said:

I totally disagree MMO players , usually , demand to much.

I blame the companies , for never trying to hit one market , is always: "Everyone should have something to do in our game."

That does not work , because one side is always trying to pull them more to itself , middle ground does not satisfy people.

They should target a market and stick with it , instead they keep running around trying to please both.

Unfortunately i dont see this changing, after all it is just business and this appear to give more money , do not matter how much people complain.

the reason businesses dont aim for one market is because they are trying to maximize sales.  if your game can cater to the larger crowd, you will get more box sales and more revenue.

its all about money and its all about numbers.  even ANet has been stripped of their independent nature and its all dollar signs and corporate America.

players demand a lot because they know that if they complain long and loud enough, some one is going to try and appease them.

at one point, gaming companies would stick to their guns.  not so much anymore.

#32 Larsen

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 08:30 AM

MMO-players don't demand too much, the developers deliver too little. Every title since WoW has been a half-assed, underdeveloped and fundamentally broken game that someone clearly made just to capitalize on WoW's popularity. There hasn't been a single game that was objectively good, all of them had horrible, glaring flaws and were clearly discount products.

WAR: broken engine that couldn't run the game, awful class balance, idiot developers

AoC: completely unfinished game

Aion: horribly unsuited to the western market, way too Korean

Rift: nothing new, everything was a copy of WoW or WAR, also awful class balance

Tabula Rasa: just complete garbage

SWTOR: lame content, boring gameplay, over-emphasis on cutscenes, poor design

etc.

Nobody has made a solid MMORPG since WoW and EQ2 came out in the early/mid-2000s. Everything else has been a cheap knock-off that tried to imitate its predecessors without doing anything better. This is now an industry where everyone simply tries to either imitate WoW, which is a mistake because people are tired of WoW, or they try to succeed on a basis of little more than "this is not WoW, come check it out!" while providing a discount product that most people won't enjoy.

This genre is in steep decline because developers can't really come up with anything new that actually works, but for some reason, everyone keeps insisting that the customers are to blame. In what other line of business would that be taken seriously? I don't see anyone accusing fans of the Star Wars franchise for not giving the new movies a chance. They were objectively bad movies. Most MMORPGs released in the last 6-7 years were bad games. It's pathetic that anyone has the audacity to blame customers for the failures of bad products.

Edited by Larsen, 02 December 2012 - 08:31 AM.


#33 Arquenya

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:30 PM

View PostShizu, on 01 December 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

It's an unavoidable problem for mainstream MMOs. They try to please everyone, wich is impossible.
The community as a whole may seem schizophrenic, whining about something and the complete opposite in the same thread.
But these games are played by a lot of different people with completely different tastes, so you are going to see complants about everything.

This is why the genre needs more developers like CCP. Sure, they had their fair share of blunders, but they built a very loyal fanbase, still going strong after 8 years.
They will never pull off WoW numbers, but they aren't subject to massive swings in subscriptions like any major MMO. It's a very specific genre, targeted to a very specific audience. You know from day 1 what you are getting yourself into and you know from day 1 if you like it or not.

I really wish more developers would follow CCP's example, instead of pulling off 'generic mainstream garbage n. 278201"
Very wise words.

It's true, you can't please everyone. I wished ANet had said en emphasized that "we make a game for player types A, B and C but if you're into D and E, there's plenty of other games around that can cater your wishes".
And I think most of the complaints and cynicism comes from people expecting ANet to cater A, B and C (like they did with GW) but finding them actually also trying to cater D and E, which have contradictory impacts on the game. Making the game a bit of a "master of none".

CCP indeed. I greatly disliked the game for the veteran elitism and self-entitlement, sluggish slow travel, the fact that the average player had 3 accounts - but I do respect the unique niche they represent. Especially the local economy thing still is unsurpassed by any other game and I loved the fact that both small and big ships were useful in small fleets.

View PostLarsen, on 02 December 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

MMO-players don't demand too much, the developers deliver too little. Every title since WoW has been a half-assed, underdeveloped and fundamentally broken game that someone clearly made just to capitalize on WoW's popularity. There hasn't been a single game that was objectively good, all of them had horrible, glaring flaws and were clearly discount products.
Agreed. Unlike some of the posters here I do believe it's possible to make a nice, half decent MMO game.
The fact that GW2 is rated quite good seems to be more of a "the one-eyed is king" phenomenon.

Edited by Arquenya, 02 December 2012 - 12:38 PM.


#34 Darius

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 01:02 PM

I think the devs need a long vacation, let's not stress them out too much. Personally I am satisfied so far with the game and their effort to improve it.

#35 Dasryn

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:16 PM

View PostLarsen, on 02 December 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

MMO-players don't demand too much, the developers deliver too little. Every title since WoW has been a half-assed, underdeveloped and fundamentally broken game that someone clearly made just to capitalize on WoW's popularity. There hasn't been a single game that was objectively good, all of them had horrible, glaring flaws and were clearly discount products.

WAR: broken engine that couldn't run the game, awful class balance, idiot developers

AoC: completely unfinished game

Aion: horribly unsuited to the western market, way too Korean

Rift: nothing new, everything was a copy of WoW or WAR, also awful class balance

Tabula Rasa: just complete garbage

SWTOR: lame content, boring gameplay, over-emphasis on cutscenes, poor design

etc.

Nobody has made a solid MMORPG since WoW and EQ2 came out in the early/mid-2000s. Everything else has been a cheap knock-off that tried to imitate its predecessors without doing anything better. This is now an industry where everyone simply tries to either imitate WoW, which is a mistake because people are tired of WoW, or they try to succeed on a basis of little more than "this is not WoW, come check it out!" while providing a discount product that most people won't enjoy.

This genre is in steep decline because developers can't really come up with anything new that actually works, but for some reason, everyone keeps insisting that the customers are to blame. In what other line of business would that be taken seriously? I don't see anyone accusing fans of the Star Wars franchise for not giving the new movies a chance. They were objectively bad movies. Most MMORPGs released in the last 6-7 years were bad games. It's pathetic that anyone has the audacity to blame customers for the failures of bad products.

you must consider that wow had 8 years to develop the content it has today.  to expect a new mmorpg to launch with current gen graphics and AS MUCH content as WoW is ludicrous.  not only is that through the roof expensive, but there are many other factors involved.

to through out such generalization without taking this fundamental thing into consideration is. . . wrong.

i think devs do the best they can, you carve out their own little section in the market.

unless you want WoW to be a monopoly. . . .

#36 Draehl

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:31 PM

MMO players do demand a lot, but as a genre a lot is expected. While I wouldn't go so far as to say it's "a lifestyle" there is definitely a level of dedication there on a level above other games/genres.

#37 MrCats

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:54 PM

I personally expect what the developers say we are going to get. In GW2 i wasn't expecting massive content from day one, i was expecting to make my character look like a badass via the customisation aspect of the game. I expected a non stagnent combat system where i don't just stand there and take damage, you have to move and we got it. However, if a game says hey we're going to do this and then do the opposite then that is crap thrown into the face to the people who bought the product for x, y, z reasons.

I don't get how people can expect or demand anything at this point really for GW2, we don't have a subscription fee. We aren't paying for anything new, yes you may buy gems but that's about it There is no need to ask "What am i paying for?" like with most mmo's as i just said, there is no fee that you have to pay in order to play. If the game was P2P then i can understand why some demand content. Here, not the case.

#38 Dokem

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 03:00 PM

I'm fine with most of the game. I agree with OP, MMO players demand too much sometimes. But Karka event failure is something that cannot be tolerated.

#39 Gruunz

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 03:42 PM

Thread title "Do MMO players demand too much?" honestly I find the question in itself pretty stupid really.

You are trying to group up all mmo players into one thing. Of course everyone is different, has different tastes, different likes and dislikes. It would appear obvious that there will be conflicting views.

It would be pretty weird if there were no concerns at all, you'd find yourself in a utopia but unfortunately, that isn't reality.

#40 Arquenya

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 04:16 PM

View PostRickter, on 02 December 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

you must consider that wow had 8 years to develop the content it has today.  to expect a new mmorpg to launch with current gen graphics and AS MUCH content as WoW is ludicrous.  not only is that through the roof expensive, but there are many other factors involved.

to through out such generalization without taking this fundamental thing into consideration is. . . wrong.
i think devs do the best they can, you carve out their own little section in the market.
While that's true, ANet isn't exactly a company that makes its first MMO with just very little alternatives out there.

Whether GW2 is good or has a problem or not isn't really an issue of developers, I think the strategic management of ANet is the determining factor here. I don't really think the ones actually making the game have a lot of influence. If you read the comments by former ANet employees you'd see that it's quite a hierarchic organization. Add in shareholders and NCSoft and see what we got. Some may like it, some are more or less disappointed.

#41 runemima

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 05:06 PM

View PostGruunz, on 02 December 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

Thread title "Do MMO players demand too much?" honestly I find the question in itself pretty stupid really.

You are trying to group up all mmo players into one thing. Of course everyone is different, has different tastes, different likes and dislikes. It would appear obvious that there will be conflicting views.

It would be pretty weird if there were no concerns at all, you'd find yourself in a utopia but unfortunately, that isn't reality.

this response is the perfect ironic answer to the OP.
yes, they all expect too much, starting with utter incomprehension at not sharing their every tiny but oh so essential opinion...

instead of buying a product, playing until you feel done, and moving on.

it was pretty amusing for all the negative nellies to show up here and start vigorously defending their right to be demanding or twist this into anet being a poor business.  hostility has become a lot of people's default lifestyle in gaming. the very idea that someone would pay, play, and move on is totally foreign. first the World Must Be Informed How Wrong It Is. Then forums become gangs where similar thoughts feed and grow until True Outrage has fomented about how the backpack for level 20 Ultra Dungeon shouldn't exist or whatever hot topic is buzzing in their brain.

i'd say it's awesome how humanity can group-think a product stronger... except that very few people are truly supportive. mostly they're just crazy-angry.

i have an idea... what if... instead of endless recycled threads of sniping, guru became a place where people could work together to craft a civil, clear-headed letter to anet... after say a week of the topic being open. so let's take the infamous clocktower. people could come and put their pro/cons here, along with solutions or new visions, then at the end of the week, someone would craft a draft that people could also respond to, then that complete look at an issue, which had been given time to sit, could be shared at the official forums. because i have seen some amazing new visions/compromises/alternatives posted at guru. but this isn't where anet is going to see them. nor does anet  have any reason to come to a place of raving hate and read through 529 posts. if people felt they had a purpose the rational QQ might actually function as a team and all the spewing "i'mgoingtohateanettomygravebetrayingtraitorbuttwipei'mabetterdevinmysleep" can... no... they'll still be here.

#42 Zero_Soulreaver

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 06:11 PM

View PostGruunz, on 02 December 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

Thread title "Do MMO players demand too much?" honestly I find the question in itself pretty stupid really.

You are trying to group up all mmo players into one thing. Of course everyone is different, has different tastes, different likes and dislikes. It would appear obvious that there will be conflicting views.

It would be pretty weird if there were no concerns at all, you'd find yourself in a utopia but unfortunately, that isn't reality.
Bingo, this is exactly the issue I have with many viewpoints on here.  People constantly act like everyone who plays an MMO are all exactly the same.  It just shows a lot of inexperience with actual MMO players because they are completely widely spread and far between when it comes to likes and dislikes.

The question itself is a bit ironic considering how many people here DON'T consider themselves MMO players in the first place.

Edited by Zero_Soulreaver, 02 December 2012 - 06:12 PM.


#43 Capn_Crass

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 02:33 AM

The whole system is the problem, not any single group within it. Large numbers of players buy "generalist" games (stuff that appeals to a wide audience), so that's what publishers fund, so that's what developers work to create, so that's what large numbers of players buy. It's an inherent problem with any large-scale business; it breeds a focus on the entire bell curve rather than individual sections of it, and anyone looking for something that isn't perfectly homogenized generic crap is just shit out of luck.

Music has been suffering from that mentality for years now (how else do you think we ended up with Nickelback?), and it's looking like gaming is next.

View PostArquenya, on 02 December 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

The fact that GW2 is rated quite good seems to be more of a "the one-eyed is king" phenomenon.

If that's a Tom Waits reference, you just earned yourself some bonus points.

#44 Redhawk2007

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 03:31 AM

No, I think players put up with too much crap and are willing to tolerate too many lies and broken promises from developers instead of calling them on it. Even worse, many players are willing to lie on behalf of companies, deny problems even after the devs themselves have acknowledged them, and generally give a false and misleading impression of what games are about. This makes it impossible for people outside the game to understand what these games are really all about and make informed choices.

Further, lack of criticism insulates companies from reliable and accurate feedback, as these same players will fawn all over the game and say everything is great right up until they day they get disgusted and leave the game like everyone else. If they were honest about what they feel instead of trolling everyone else who is, it would benefit everyone all around and result in better games.

If you pay money for something, you are entitled to get what you pay for. I have little doubt quite a few of the abrasive fans trolling many game forums are paid shills or employees of game developers.

#45 sty0pa

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 03:58 AM

View PostKrazzar, on 01 December 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

The problem isn't that people demand too much, it's that their demands are paradoxes and they expect the game to cater to them exclusively in every minute aspect.  MMOs now contain many different activities and different ways to complete different activities to cater to as many people as possible, but most see that as a slap in the face because it isn't exactly what they want. A copious amount of conspiracy theories on how the developers are secretly planning to screw everyone over for quick cash "soon" with something we don't know about doesn't help either.  Ten years ago the tin foil industry wasn't held up by the gaming industry.

On the whole, I agree with your post.
Further, as regards the OP question to start the thread, my answer is 'resoundingly yes'....however....
(WARNING WALL OF TEXT INCOMING - sorry, I feel pretty strongly about this)

Isn't it time that MMO companies broke the mold a little more?
- I *loved* the multiclassing in GW1, it was one of the most essential 'this is not any other mmo' features...I was terribly sad it wasn't going to be in GW2.  I get it, I understand how hard it is to 'balance' that sort of variety.  
- Of course, that begs the question if 'perfect balance' is really a goal we should be striving for?  It seems to be for current-AAA titles, certainly.  Patches come out every week to make sure thieves don't get to spend too much time stealthed, or if Guardians' AoE heal is "too good".  But -  MMOs aren't checkers or tic-tac-toe; a true RPG has a VARIETY of experiences, a variety of challenges.  There's a REASON that D&D was successful, and a REASON that your 'classic' AD&D group *had* to have an assortment of character classes.  You knew there was going to be fighting, so you had to have a warrior or three, because while clerics could swing a mace, they really weren't much against real fighter classes in melee.  But fighters get beat up a lot, so you had to have a healer or two, especially if there might be undead.  And some of the more instantly-lethal things you could encounter were traps, and resurrecting is a few orders of magnitude more difficult/expensive than healing, so a thiefly type might be useful too.  (Wouldn't hurt either to have someone that might be able to pick a pocket or sneak around and unlock the doors for the galumphing rest of the party.)  And, while they were as fragile as hell to start, if you could keep them alive long enough, having a mage-friend was a party's early-investment in later-game heavy artillery fire support and some serious magical flexibility.  NONE OF THIS WAS BASED ON BALANCE, and it was a blast.  Largely, I blame the current fixation with balance on one-dimensional developers who are afraid of handing players challenges that they SIMPLY CANNOT COMPLETE.  So since everyone can do damage, every challenge is based on what?  Killing a boss.  (Thus, tanks/healers + (x*dps) were always required.)  GW2 has done away with the trinity, but the mechanics remain, tiredly, the same.  What if there was an instance where you had to fly or wall-climb up to open the magical barrier?  You have a party of nothing but fighters?  Whups, you can't complete it.  Of course, in that context I'd say "stupid players with a one-dimensional party" but devs fear the ragequit.  What if your band runs into an undead that simply cannot be beaten with physical weapons?  Probably sorry you didn't bring the cleric or the mage.  Personally, I find this interesting, but it would require instances of some unpredictability, perhaps procedurally generated (I had a little frisson of 'coool' at the concept and implementation of Fractals for just this reason...think about it, an instance that you CAN'T predict? You can't map out the pulls and strategies or find them on youtube?  I was saddened when I realized they DO have a finite distribution of the variety, and thus the answers ARE still to be found online...but still, a promising idea whose strength is illustrated by how dominant they've become already.)
- And isn't it about time we recognized that MMOs aren't PnP games?  Computers can keep track of MASSIVE amounts of numbers in real time, and do calculations really fast.  What about a 'reputation' system that kept track of the opinions of every NPC you interacted with?  And their relationships, so that if you helped Old Mara, it turns out that Drunken Pete starts to get jealous, and maybe even sends other CHARACTERS on quests to mess with you or (even) kill you?  How about a massive world that is (to some degree) procedurally-generated at the edges, so characters can REALLY explore?  Of course, the procedurally-generated instance entries that they find (caves, ruins, dungeons, etc.) become precious knowledge...it would really be a shame if they died before they got back to 'civilization' and were able to communicate (sell) that information, or maybe just keep it privately within their guild for a secret base/adventuring spot?  If they died before this 'flag' of detail could be passed (and assuming someone else didn't discover it in the meanwhile too), the information is 'lost' (and the procedural results flushed!).  Massively complex?  Yep.  Doable?  I think so...let's just say if we combined the dev time for all the 'find 6 wolf bladder' quests in all the MMOs, this could be solved, for sure.
- Perhaps we could even get rid of levels?  Levels INHERENTLY box the players into quanta (self evidently) and limit content.  I had a long conversation with Jack Emmert during an interview, before CoH came out.  He didn't want levels but found that even in the limited Alpha and Beta tests, people quickly figured out the 'best math choice for max dps' and everyone just copied it.  Again, I attribute that more to the fact that the only really relevant ability to 'winning' was doing damage.  With a percentile system, the problem is that with the massive amounts of time some MMO players apparently have (like to write massive walls-of-text posts...) these systems are always quickly maxed out.  But what if that was impossible?  What if every weapon/spell/skill (including parrys and dodges) had an expertise value that was gained over use* (more slowly the higher it got, so it would take much longer to go from 91 to 92 than from 8 to 9) with no top-end?  And the use of that skill was always compared proportionally against whatever you were fighting?  So a goblin might have a weapon attack of 20.  An ogre, 80.  A minotaur, 400.  Dragon 2000.  A warrior with 100 days played, maybe would reach 100, but the sky's the limit.  She could with obsessive use, and a lifetime of adventuring reach 500 or more with her chosen weapon.
*this would work the best with a sort of skill-atrophy system.  You might spend 100 days straight becoming the most awesome longbowman ever.  But if you spend the next 200 days never touching a bow, you're going to suck when you pick it up again.  Now, of course you'd have an accelerated learning curve and get back to (or nearly to) your previous skill FAR faster than anyone else could.  But the world's best (anything) only stayed that way by practicing constantly.

I'm not saying that my ideas have any particular value.  I'm saying that the tired old model of levels, a rudimentary point-value 'happy points', hit points that reach the tens of thousands simply because you've wandered everywhere, and the idea that fighter X swinging that sword does HUNDREDS of times more damage than fighter Y simply because he's swung it a lot...the rationalizations just aren't required any more.  We don't have to keep track of this crap on our charactersheets with erasers and white out....so why do we STILL use these fundamental systems?

So when people say "MMO players expect too much" yeah, I generally agree that the public are largely a bunch of mewling whingers that want to be catered to and can NEVER be made actually happy.  On the other hand, as ANet depressingly demonstrates, even people who demonstrate relatively fearless creativity early on can become tiredly conservative and fall back on well-trodden tropes when their cash piles get big.

(and I'm fully aware that this is more an issue of the 'money dudes' not willing to invest the sorts of resources in what amounts to an 'experimental' title, meaning anyone TRYING to do it won't be able to compete with the AAA titles in terms of 'flash' or marketing, etc.)

Edited by sty0pa, 03 December 2012 - 03:58 AM.


#46 Arkham Creed

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:09 AM

Do MMO players demand too much?

Short answer; yes. This is the only video game genre wherein it is somehow okay to pay sixty bucks for a game, play it for three hundred hours –having a blast I might add- and then demand a refund because there wasn’t enough things to do.

#47 Casiidy

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:27 AM

I would have to say yes and no.

Yes, people are very demanding. Everyone will have a different opinion on a game. And trying to please every MMO gamer out there is IMPOSSIBLE. Because some people will master a game quickly, and want something new/different/exciting. Some people cannot master the game and will whine that it is too difficult and should be easier. Or they will whine about it being too hard and that the game needs to be changed altogether.

However - paying $60 for a game, then again paying MONTHLY means that game needs to listen to the player feedback, and ensure that a large percentage of players continues to play (and subscribe). WoW has had a decade to do so - to change their game based on the players needs and wants. No other MMOs have had that much time to develop a game that good or original (not saying WoW has always been original). So they copy WoW. But the problem is you are still playing the same game. It just looks different. But...isn't that the definition of a genre? Games that are generally the same but have different storylines or gameplay or community, etc. Because at any moment, if I get bored of a subscription based game, then I will stop paying for it.

Unfortunately, GW2 has been trying to attract the attention of a wide base of players. And unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be working. But...you don't pay monthly for GW2. So technically, the players of this game don't really have that right to demand certain things out of this game. Even if you are paying in the cash shop, that is your choice and is no way required to play the game.

Overall, I'm trying to say that MMO players should NOT demand anything. I think its great that players provide feedback on their participation in the game, but in NO way should speak for all players (even though many people try). And if you aren't paying a subscription fee to the game, you have no right to demand anything from the game developers.

#48 Roybe

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:50 AM

Yes.  Yes they do.

#49 Redhawk2007

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:36 AM

View PostArkham Creed, on 03 December 2012 - 04:09 AM, said:

Do MMO players demand too much?

Short answer; yes. This is the only video game genre wherein it is somehow okay to pay sixty bucks for a game, play it for three hundred hours –having a blast I might add- and then demand a refund because there wasn’t enough things to do.

But it is okay for Anet to pull a bait and switch 3 months into the game and destroy all the time people spent grinding to get gear for their toons only to see it wiped out by a gear treadmill Anet said wouldn't be in the game. Many people paid a lot more than $60 for this game obviously. Some have paid hundreds of dollars already through the cash shop, and there is an opportunity cost to the time they spent grinding for nothing: that 300 hours is worth over $2100 at US minimum wage.

Two possible outcomes here: people who got screwed lose the time they invested but at least get a refund afterwards, or the company that did the screwing gets to keep its ill gotten gains and players can kiss the money they invested in the game goodbye along with the time. I vote for the latter. Players can't get the valuable time they wasted on this game back but at least they can get their money back and send a message to Anet. Either way players got a raw deal and the "free" fun time scarcely compensates them for it.

Few people would be seeking a refund if Anet hadn't lied about the game.

#50 Daesu

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:07 AM

View PostCasiidy, on 03 December 2012 - 04:27 AM, said:

And if you aren't paying a subscription fee to the game, you have no right to demand anything from the game developers.

I don't think you have the right to demand anything even if you pay a subscription.  It is their game afterall.  You can only provide suggestions and hope that they listen to you.  The only thing you can do is to drop your subscription if your demands are not met.  Similarly you can also stop supporting them, don't buy anything else from them, or even stop playing if you don't pay a subscription.  But you are in no position to demand anything in either case.

Edited by Daesu, 03 December 2012 - 06:08 AM.


#51 Trei

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:07 AM

View Poststy0pa, on 03 December 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

... So since everyone can do damage, every challenge is based on what?  Killing a boss.  (Thus, tanks/healers + (x*dps) were always required.)  GW2 has done away with the trinity, but the mechanics remain, tiredly, the same.  What if there was an instance where you had to fly or wall-climb up to open the magical barrier?  You have a party of nothing but fighters?  Whups, you can't complete it.  ...
Anet can always create specific environmental items for players to find and use.

it's why they came up with the bundles mechanic.

#52 jayson

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:09 AM

As individuals we ask for what was promised. It's when you ask groups you're going to get a mess of answers that are always going to clash with thoughts and ideas of everyone else around you on how to make a game great.

If Anet gave everyone what they wanted you'd have an MMO that starts off killing giants and dragons with swords and sorcery that switches to an FPS with guns and rockets while flying through the sky on wings or ships killing aliens then diving into the ocean killing some other random thing while heading back onto land and slaughtering zombies while levelling up on one of the forthy thousand different crafting ablilities and learning at least three thousand skills in a persistant world that's also instanced that has health bars that aren't health bars while sipping potions during your ride on a mount while heading to the auction house that is in a secret base that's connected to your guild where you have your personal house that you've decorated all by yourself. Of course you'd have to first create your character from the 80 different classes with the 600 possible options for eyes, nose, ears, teeth, tongue, ears, elbows blah, blah, blah.

They had a good thing going with GW. There were misses at times sure but it wasn't trying to be anything else anyone had. Now GW2 is pretty much trying to be everything everyone already had all at once.

#53 Daesu

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:33 AM

View Poststy0pa, on 03 December 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

So since everyone can do damage, every challenge is based on what?  Killing a boss.  (Thus, tanks/healers + (x*dps) were always required.)  GW2 has done away with the trinity, but the mechanics remain, tiredly, the same.  What if there was an instance where you had to fly or wall-climb up to open the magical barrier?  You have a party of nothing but fighters?  Whups, you can't complete it.  Of course, in that context I'd say "stupid players with a one-dimensional party" but devs fear the ragequit.  What if your band runs into an undead that simply cannot be beaten with physical weapons?  Probably sorry you didn't bring the cleric or the mage.  Personally, I find this interesting, but it would require instances of some unpredictability, perhaps procedurally generated (I had a little frisson of 'coool' at the concept and implementation of Fractals for just this reason...think about it, an instance that you CAN'T predict? You can't map out the pulls and strategies or find them on youtube?  I was saddened when I realized they DO have a finite distribution of the variety, and thus the answers ARE still to be found online...but still, a promising idea whose strength is illustrated by how dominant they've become already.)

When ArenaNet got rid of the trinity, they made forming groups easier.  However, they stopped short of allowing all players to summon certain powers so that they can take on needed roles during combat.  If I was designing this game, I would have allowed more weapons to be switched such that skill sets for "healer", "tank", and "dps", etc. roles can be dynamically chosen during combat.  The defense rating of your armor, mobility, etc. can also be changed based on the skill set (i.e. roles) that you have chosen.  

For example, if a warrior switches his greatsword for a staff, he is magically transformed into a warrior paladin with the power to provide more heals for his team.  Perhaps also place a cool down for each transformation.  If the warrior chooses a bow, he has faster mobility and faster attack speed, but lowered defense rating on his armor.  He can also get to develop each of these role aspects separately.  This way you can have both the flexibility and efficiency as and when the team needs it.

Edited by Daesu, 03 December 2012 - 06:47 AM.


#54 SirGamesalot

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:42 AM

All I demand is a fun game that isn't luck based, but i guess I can never have that.

#55 ToySoldier

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:41 AM

I enjoy reading player complaints about the game because I am interested in thinking about what can make an ultimate mmorpg.  Reading views from players who have opposite play style from me opens my eyes about how other people's interests run.

Player demands are fine to me even when I disagree.  But I don't like players making personal attacks on others.  And by "personal", I mean picking on one specific individual.  Not some casual mention of "hardcore", or "casual" players.  To me it's annoying reading personal insults.  It's a time waster for me.

But there is a saving feature for me on this forum.  I like Guru because I can use the ignore function to ignore players who tend to do these attacks.   I love the ignore function here.  It feels like you have your own forum, and you are an all powerful mod that can delete anything you don't like.  Wish all game forums are like this.  Hehe.. I would invite anyone who hates my posts to use ignore on me!

I don't plan to influence ANet in anyway.  I'm sure ANet will not just listen to me, or anybody else.

Pretty sure ANet has monitoring in-game to gauge many player interest, player log in, gem store revenue.. etc.  I don't really think we need to do a turf war on our views on this forum.  ANet most likely knows how many % of their players are in each interest groups.  For me this forum is just for venting with people who share my complaints, learning from people who don't share my view, and having fun reading great writing.  So far the forum has many good posters, and I enjoy reading more than posting.  Have been clicking "like" a lot on all kinds of posters.  :) :lol: Fun!

Edited by ToySoldier, 03 December 2012 - 10:20 AM.


#56 Photonic

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:24 AM

No, the majority of gamers are happy with most games. Seriously, it is true.

However, the majority of outspoken gamers (those who do reviews, post on forums and so on) want a game to be designed perfectly for them. That is still not the majority of gamers.

That being said, it is true that outspoken gamers want A LOT for very little. This is not just a problem with MMOs, but the game industry as a whole. People complain that a free game is not good enough, or that a game that cost them 99 cents did not give them months of entertainment and free updates. The sooner people realize that money drives development for TripleA titles (indie too, to an extent), and that making a game is expensive and massively time consuming, the sooner everyone will be better off. Think of it this way, tons of people pay 20 bucks to go see a 90 minute film and get a drink and popcorn. 90 minutes of entertainment for 1/3 the price of a TripleA title that often gives you at least 20 hours of pure entertainment. People on this forum  complain that GW2 is bad after playing 300 hours and request a refund... Really? That is 1 buck for 5 hours of entertainment... and you want a refund...

Edited by Photonic, 03 December 2012 - 10:27 AM.


#57 Arquenya

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:46 AM

View PostPhotonic, on 03 December 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

No, the majority of gamers are happy with most games. Seriously, it is true.

However, the majority of outspoken gamers (those who do reviews, post on forums and so on) want a game to be designed perfectly for them. That is still not the majority of gamers.
How would you know?

Seriously, sometimes I think MMO developers/designers have an issue. I've played many kinds of games and MMO's are the only type that I have a lot of issues with (and I don't seem to be the only one if I have talks with my guildies or read the forum). Sometimes it seems that money has far too much influence on their design choices and they just can't seem to bring themselves to just making a very good, nice and enjoyable game.

#58 ToySoldier

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:59 AM

View PostArquenya, on 03 December 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

Seriously, sometimes I think MMO developers/designers have an issue. I've played many kinds of games and MMO's are the only type that I have a lot of issues with (and I don't seem to be the only one if I have talks with my guildies or read the forum).
Sometimes it seems that money has far too much influence on their design choices and they just can't seem to bring themselves to just making a very good, nice and enjoyable game.

Definitely.  This usually happens when management for an MMORPG misjudges their revenue potential and source.  For example, one old mmorpg executive might have thought to himself: "Farmers... if I can have farmers subscribe to our game, and players who buy from farmers subscribe too, our revenue will be in a win-win situation!"  But after a while, the real players left of of dissatisfaction, then the farmers left too.

Next executive thinks: "Ok we'll open up our own cash shop."  Then proceed to sell the wrong products in their shop.

So on... it may take a long time for a product to figure out their best business model.

#59 Photonic

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 11:09 AM

View PostArquenya, on 03 December 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:


How would you know?

Seriously, sometimes I think MMO developers/designers have an issue. I've played many kinds of games and MMO's are the only type that I have a lot of issues with (and I don't seem to be the only one if I have talks with my guildies or read the forum). Sometimes it seems that money has far too much influence on their design choices and they just can't seem to bring themselves to just making a very good, nice and enjoyable game.

Well. I obviously do not know for sure, as I am not everywhere and everyone. However, I am lucky enough to say that I know people at gearbox, bioware, riot, junctionpoint, zynga Dallas, blizzard, trion and, yes, ArenaNet. I have had sit ins with many QAs, had multiple meeting with publishers and their marketing departments. I spend the majority or my undergrads and graduate school on game design and research. I go to GDC Online and GDC all the time, and I sometimes goto PAX. I actually do go out and talk to general audiences as well as work with and have conversations with developers and QA daily. Part of my job requires that I buy and play a ton of games, because I have to be able to use them in comparisons and it just looks bad when you are talking to someone like Tom Cadwell and they mention a game that you have never experienced.

Again, you are correct, I can not prove that what I said is true with hard evidence. However, it has just been my experience actually working in the industry that most gamers you talk to enjoy a lot of stuff about games, and the stuff they do not love they can live with. That is, for a successful game anyways, and I would consider GW2 successful currently.

In the end, it is a far more in depth discussion, everyone is different in so many ways. The point of game development when you are a studio as large as ArenaNet is to make your game entertaining to the audience you choose; that audience is usually FAR larger than those who also talk about games and design online in forums...

Most game companies are doing their best to please the MAJORITY of their audience. To do otherwise is product and financial suicide. So any time you see a ton of people complaining on a forum about something in a game and the devs state that that is how they want it... Trust me, they are doing it because more people want it that way or are fine with it that way.

Edit: this is not to say that game devs and infallible. There are so many problems plaguing the game industry right now it is ridiculous. And yes, unfortunately one of them is that financials can easily influence the final product... But in the end, this is sadly what is working for the majority of larger publishers, so they will keep doing it that way for the very reason that people are okay with it and will pay for it. However, people read too much into forum posts and replies on review sites. Those people are usually not representing the majority of the games active players.

Edited by Photonic, 03 December 2012 - 11:21 AM.


#60 Cobalt60

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 11:47 AM

View PostRedhawk2007, on 03 December 2012 - 05:36 AM, said:

But it is okay for Anet to pull a bait and switch 3 months into the game and destroy all the time people spent grinding to get gear for their toons only to see it wiped out by a gear treadmill Anet said wouldn't be in the game. Many people paid a lot more than $60 for this game obviously. Some have paid hundreds of dollars already through the cash shop, and there is an opportunity cost to the time they spent grinding for nothing: that 300 hours is worth over $2100 at US minimum wage.

Two possible outcomes here: people who got screwed lose the time they invested but at least get a refund afterwards, or the company that did the screwing gets to keep its ill gotten gains and players can kiss the money they invested in the game goodbye along with the time. I vote for the latter. Players can't get the valuable time they wasted on this game back but at least they can get their money back and send a message to Anet. Either way players got a raw deal and the "free" fun time scarcely compensates them for it.

Few people would be seeking a refund if Anet hadn't lied about the game.

Hahahahahahaha

You're funny.




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