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What I got from the state of pvp discussion...


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#1 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:46 PM

- Downed state will be nerfed
- Condition removal will be nerfed
- S/D will be nerfed (lulz)

No talk about damage so probably no buffs.

If ANet really does what those "pros" suggested (i.e. listen ONLY to them because they know that's best) then this game will go down fast. You know who complained about eles in the stream? A condition necro and glasscannon thief. 2 specs that are hardcountered by bunker eles.

Those "pros" are nothing more than normal forum whiners - which arenanet said they don't listen too.

/rant

#2 Vence

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:54 PM

Only the downed state should be taken into consideration because it really is op'ed for eles in actual tourneys. Everything else is alritee, no need for any other ele nerfs because they do have openings/weaknesses during fights that any good glasscannon can take advantage of and win.

#3 LucLucLuc

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:55 PM

Man it's just... Why is it so hard to leave a class alone (T▽T)

#4 Wifflebottom

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:00 PM

Why are glass cannon thieves even allowed to complain about balance?

#5 Drtoph

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:10 PM

View PostMr_Original, on 01 December 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

Why are glass cannon thieves even allowed to complain about balance?
^This.  None of those players even main ele's yet they are all complaining about it.  I find it hilarious that of those speakers, 3 main thieves, 1 mains a mesmer and they are complaining about eles?  If eles are so strong then why don't any of them main them?  Freaking ridiculous.

#6 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:14 PM

View PostDrtoph, on 01 December 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

^This.  None of those players even main ele's yet they are all complaining about it.  I find it hilarious that of those speakers, 3 main thieves, 1 mains a mesmer and they are complaining about eles?  If eles are so strong then why don't any of them main them?  Freaking ridiculous.

That was exactly what I was thinking.

Also funny how they complained about ele downed state going from zero to hero and a minute later JohnSharp explained how arenanet only does very small changes at a time - VERY small. Yeah, sure.

#7 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:20 PM

I can already see it coming:

December Patch:
- Cleansing water now has a 10 seconds cooldown.

January Patch:
- Removed unintended condition removal from cleansing water.

#8 Yagamy09

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:21 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 01 December 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

That was exactly what I was thinking.

Also funny how they complained about ele downed state going from zero to hero and a minute later JohnSharp explained how arenanet only does very small changes at a time - VERY small. Yeah, sure.

are u saying its not true at all that ele downed state went from zero to hero? :DDDDDDDD

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#9 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:23 PM

View PostYagamy09, on 01 December 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

are u saying its not true at all that ele downed state went from zero to hero? :DDDDDDDD

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a ) learn to read
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Edited by AetherMcLoud, 01 December 2012 - 07:25 PM.


#10 blindude

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:32 PM

I dont want to be part of this ele rant but i too am hearing all the time eles are op,eles are too strong etc.. from people that havent even touch one.
I mean with thieves and mesmers you know they are strong cause everyone and their mothers have one..but with ele very few play but somehow its op.If its so *ing strong you pro scumbag why dont you use one??:P
Instead you get to see an ele in the team that has probably devoted almost his whole time on that character and learned to be good..maybe ele players are more determined to begin with.Think of that!

#11 Yagamy09

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:33 PM

they didnt say "very small" they just said that they dont want to super buff or super nerf any class they only make few changes in every patch for all the  classes buff some skill nerf some other stuff like that

and anet wont change s/d only because 2 out of 4 siad that s/d are really strong because atm they are pretty balanced after the fix of EA and healing ripple nerf  so i dont see the point of crying about everything

Edited by Yagamy09, 01 December 2012 - 07:36 PM.


#12 Tumri

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:34 PM

Aether your QQ knows no bounds. I don't think I've seen you make a post that DOESN'T include some sort of Elementalist QQ. Right now Eles are VERY viable and competitive in tPvP, especially D/D aura share Ele. If anything ANet will tone down the downed state(almost guaranteed) and buff/nerf other areas as they see fit(maybe).

2 months ago everyone thought Eles were underpowered and useless. A month ago they become a mainstay on nearly every tPvP team because people found a niche for them. At the start of the game people thought Warriors would always have a place on every single tPvP team. As people learned to play and counter Warriors they've all but disappeared from high level play. You can't just judge everything by the lowest rung(Hotjoin).

Edited by Tumri, 01 December 2012 - 07:37 PM.


#13 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:45 PM

View PostTumri, on 01 December 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

Aether your QQ knows no bounds. I don't think I've seen you make a post that DOESN'T include some sort of Elementalist QQ. Right now Eles are VERY viable and competitive in tPvP, especially D/D aura share Ele. If anything ANet will tone down the downed state(almost guaranteed) and buff/nerf other areas as they see fit(maybe).

2 months ago everyone thought Eles were underpowered and useless. A month ago they become a mainstay on nearly every tPvP team because people found a niche for them. At the start of the game people thought Warriors would always have a place on every single tPvP team. As people learned to play and counter Warriors they've all but disappeared from high level play. You can't just judge everything by the lowest rung(Hotjoin).

Eles have 1 (one) viable build. Aurashare. Which is a bunker build. Which those "pros" complained about. Which is on arenanets watchlist according to the video. And we already have seen what being on the watchlist gives you. Nerfs all around.

I mean these so-called pros were ridiculous. One even said they'll just use 4 eles and a mesmer and nobody will be able to win against them.

A month ago every ele was an EA staffbunker. They nerfed that to the ground. Now every ele is aurashare bunker we'll see how they nerf that. Also who cares about hotjoin?

Downed state nerf, sure, but buff our viable builds up from 1 for fraks sake.

Edited by unraveled, 11 December 2012 - 07:48 AM.
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#14 ensoriki

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:47 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 01 December 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Eles have 1 (one) viable build. Aurashare. Which is a bunker build. Which those "pros" complained about. Which is on arenanets watchlist according to the video. And we already have seen what being on the watchlist gives you. Nerfs all around.

So D/D and S/D having viable specs means one build?

Edited by ensoriki, 01 December 2012 - 07:48 PM.


#15 nurt

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:38 PM

Eles are really good.  They're definitely one of the most valuable professions in TPvP right now, but I don't think they necessarily need nerfs given the current state of the game.  They aren't game-breakingly strong, they just fill a really valuable niche better than other professions can.  I'd say the best course of action would be to buff weak builds for other professions that could fill a similar role in a different way.  That's what this game needs, more good builds not less.

That said.... complaining about hypothetical nerfs that haven't happened yet is really stupid.

Edited by nurt, 01 December 2012 - 08:39 PM.


#16 Vence

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:41 PM

You know wat needs a nerf?! GUARDIANS! How you suppopse to defeat a pro team with 4 GOOD Guardians that all camp each of the 3 points, so they'll always have at least 2 points capped at all times! Conquest mode favors guards.

#17 BorzE

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:32 PM

Ive never played tpvp can someone explain how the down state is OP.  It seems to me that being able to move 20' while people see where you go is not OP compared to being able to teleport and disappear.

The only good thing I heard in that video was that there is a representative from www and pve in the room when balance is decided because apparently if it was left to the pvp people we would be screwed.

#18 Carebear_Sss

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:36 PM

http://www.guildwars...60#entry2103986

Answered you here, thread can be locked. L2P

#19 BorzE

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:17 PM

I dont see an answer to anything in that post what are you talking about?

#20 Leoveo

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:28 AM

I think the down state should just be entirely removed from the game period. The rest about this ele stuff is beyond me. When outnumbered 2 to 1 against a zerg we can kill people but its pointless because of the downed state. We can't reach downed players either from the enemy team or our own downed players because of the zerg. There's no reward for getting someone to the downed state which keeps the situation permanently imbalanced in terms of BoH being rewarded. Skill gets us to drop players, but skill cannot always get those downed players to dead status when the odds are so stacked. Takes the skill completely out of the game in some situations.

Edited by Leoveo, 02 December 2012 - 12:49 AM.


#21 SuperNova

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:33 AM

View PostVence, on 01 December 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

You know wat needs a nerf?! GUARDIANS! How you suppopse to defeat a pro team with 4 GOOD Guardians that all camp each of the 3 points, so they'll always have at least 2 points capped at all times! Conquest mode favors guards.

Or just fix what is really wrong with spvp in the game, namely point capture in all battlegrounds.

#22 NuclearDonut

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:58 AM

View PostLeoveo, on 02 December 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

I think the down state should just be entirely removed from the game period. The rest about this ele stuff is beyond me. When outnumbered 2 to 1 against a zerg we can kill people but its pointless because of the downed state. We can't reach downed players either from the enemy team or our own downed players because of the zerg. There's no reward for getting someone to the downed state which keeps the situation permanently imbalanced in terms of BoH being rewarded. Skill gets us to drop players, but skill cannot always get those downed players to dead status when the odds are so stacked. Takes the skill completely out of the game in some situations.
A lot of people agree with you, but I disagree to some extent. It is very discouraging when I go against a 3-man Thief roamer group and down 2 of them only to watch them disappear and stand up again, but I treat that as another part of my player skill. When I down someone I consider them at 10-15% HP instead of dead. The reason I mentioned Thieves is because they're difficult to keep track of in a 3v1 so I almost always end up losing those. Downed state is here to stay so unfortunately you'll have to adjust like I did.

#23 DataPhreak

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 01:19 AM

View Postblindude, on 01 December 2012 - 07:32 PM, said:

I mean with thieves and mesmers you know they are strong cause everyone and their mothers have one..but with ele very few play but somehow its op.If its so *ing strong you pro scumbag why dont you use one?? :P



Thieves aren't that strong. I know because theif is my main. Yeah, sure, we can instant down most classes. Only when they are glass built, and only if we get the drop on them. Then, we have a 40 second wait where we put out average damage. On top of all this, we are made of paper.

That being said, I've personally seen ele's tanking 5 to 10 people at a time, putting out decent damage. So yeah, I took your advice and rolled an ele. Your nerf wasn't THAT bad. Every skill in dagger, and the only skill in shortbow that puts out any damage, have been nerfed on theif. Every Sword skill on theif has been nerfed. The only thing that hasn't been nerfed is pistol. I would much rather play theif, but honestly, ele has WAY better damage AND WAY better survivability. I've seen ele's take more hate than 2 guardians. Seriously, there were 10 of us, 2 guardians and an ele. We'd focus down both of the guardians, and get kited by an ele healing himself for 10-20 mins.

And the reason why thief's been nerfed so hard? Glass cannon elementalists complaining in the forum that their 12k HP and 0 toughness builds die in 3 seconds to theif.

Edited by DataPhreak, 02 December 2012 - 01:26 AM.


#24 Leoveo

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 01:42 AM

View PostDataPhreak, on 02 December 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:

That being said, I've personally seen ele's tanking 5 to 10 people at a time, putting out decent damage. So yeah, I took your advice and rolled an ele. Your nerf wasn't THAT bad. Every skill in dagger, and the only skill in shortbow that puts out any damage, have been nerfed on theif. Every Sword skill on theif has been nerfed. The only thing that hasn't been nerfed is pistol. I would much rather play theif, but honestly, ele has WAY better damage AND WAY better survivability. I've seen ele's take more hate than 2 guardians. Seriously, there were 10 of us, 2 guardians and an ele. We'd focus down both of the guardians, and get kited by an ele healing himself for 10-20 mins.

And the reason why thief's been nerfed so hard? Glass cannon elementalists complaining in the forum that their 12k HP and 0 toughness builds die in 3 seconds to theif.

I know everyone keeps saying that we as thieves have been nerfed but honestly its no different at all. If you played the thief properly originally and didn't just spam the same moves over and over then you can't consider it a nerf.

If you originally played by using all your initiative in one go and utilising one skill you won't find that we are still as potent as ever. We now have to play smart which is why its still my main. This is why i couldn't be a ranged class - those were all the same over and over.

Edited by Leoveo, 02 December 2012 - 01:46 AM.


#25 blindude

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:43 AM

View PostDataPhreak, on 02 December 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:

Thieves aren't that strong. I know because theif is my main. Yeah, sure, we can instant down most classes. Only when they are glass built, and only if we get the drop on them. Then, we have a 40 second wait where we put out average damage. On top of all this, we are made of paper.

That being said, I've personally seen ele's tanking 5 to 10 people at a time, putting out decent damage. So yeah, I took your advice and rolled an ele. Your nerf wasn't THAT bad. Every skill in dagger, and the only skill in shortbow that puts out any damage, have been nerfed on theif. Every Sword skill on theif has been nerfed. The only thing that hasn't been nerfed is pistol. I would much rather play theif, but honestly, ele has WAY better damage AND WAY better survivability. I've seen ele's take more hate than 2 guardians. Seriously, there were 10 of us, 2 guardians and an ele. We'd focus down both of the guardians, and get kited by an ele healing himself for 10-20 mins.

And the reason why thief's been nerfed so hard? Glass cannon elementalists complaining in the forum that their 12k HP and 0 toughness builds die in 3 seconds to theif.
Nah you are just wrong..what serious nerf on thief?..Also you forget all about stealth which is the only reason thief can run glass canon speccs at the moment..Think is an ele cant go glass on tournaments cause all the healing of the world wotn make a difference when you die in 3 hits while a thief can just stealth-instagib-stealth and repeat.If its actually that effective with the current meta i really doubt it but it sure is annoying and unfair.
Also saying that you have seen eles tanking 5-10 people despite being lies (obviously) it also means that you are NOT playing spvp and tournaments so..no point in arguing about class balance on that mode.

#26 DataPhreak

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 03:53 AM

View Postblindude, on 02 December 2012 - 02:43 AM, said:

Nah you are just wrong..what serious nerf on thief?..Also you forget all about stealth which is the only reason thief can run glass canon speccs at the moment..Think is an ele cant go glass on tournaments cause all the healing of the world wotn make a difference when you die in 3 hits while a thief can just stealth-instagib-stealth and repeat.If its actually that effective with the current meta i really doubt it but it sure is annoying and unfair.
Also saying that you have seen eles tanking 5-10 people despite being lies (obviously) it also means that you are NOT playing spvp and tournaments so..no point in arguing about class balance on that mode.

DD has been nerfed, HS has been nerfed, Death Blossom has been nerfed, CnD has been nerfed, Cluster Bomb has been nerfed, Pistol Whip has been nerfed, Tactical Strike has been nerfed. Literally every weapon has been nerfed over the last 3 patches. Forget about stealth? Nah, bro. And you're saying I didn't watch 1 ele tank 10 people at once (Post 11/15 I might add...)? yeah, I did. there's at least 3 eles on maguma i've seen do this.

View PostLeoveo, on 02 December 2012 - 01:42 AM, said:

I know everyone keeps saying that we as thieves have been nerfed but honestly its no different at all. If you played the thief properly originally and didn't just spam the same moves over and over then you can't consider it a nerf.

If you originally played by using all your initiative in one go and utilising one skill you won't find that we are still as potent as ever. We now have to play smart which is why its still my main. This is why i couldn't be a ranged class - those were all the same over and over.

I use all my skills constantly, both on sbow and dagger/dagger, as well as my utilities, and I DON'T play a 3 shot kill build. I don't think that that was the point of the theif in the first place. The problem is that the nerfs to thief have affected  ALL builds, and now the only viable spec is glass simply because theif can't put out enough damage if they aren't pumping power/crit/critdmg. ANET has pidgeonholed thiefs into a pure DPS class with only 1 viable weapon combo.

#27 Leoveo

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 05:13 AM

View PostDataPhreak, on 02 December 2012 - 03:53 AM, said:

DD has been nerfed, HS has been nerfed, Death Blossom has been nerfed, CnD has been nerfed, Cluster Bomb has been nerfed, Pistol Whip has been nerfed, Tactical Strike has been nerfed. Literally every weapon has been nerfed over the last 3 patches. Forget about stealth? Nah, bro. And you're saying I didn't watch 1 ele tank 10 people at once (Post 11/15 I might add...)? yeah, I did. there's at least 3 eles on maguma i've seen do this.

I use all my skills constantly, both on sbow and dagger/dagger, as well as my utilities, and I DON'T play a 3 shot kill build. I don't think that that was the point of the theif in the first place. The problem is that the nerfs to thief have affected  ALL builds, and now the only viable spec is glass simply because theif can't put out enough damage if they aren't pumping power/crit/critdmg. ANET has pidgeonholed thiefs into a pure DPS class with only 1 viable weapon combo.

Yea I have seen the ele's do this, i've even seen one rush into 30 guys aoe and get out alive.

The thing with the thief is prolonged attacking and withdrawing. I can still lead a charge with pistol pistol and force 30 enemies back when my unit is outnumbered. I can still get in to the rear of a zerg and drop a target that's been flagged up for causing too much damage. I still die a lot too. I never used to three shot people and admittedly it can take a bit longer to kill tough, vit and power people but then again it used to anyway. I do rely on stealth to do all this though. If they nerfed our stealth ability further we'd be in trouble.

#28 Reisa

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 05:23 AM

View PostDataPhreak, on 02 December 2012 - 03:53 AM, said:

I use all my skills constantly, both on sbow and dagger/dagger, as well as my utilities, and I DON'T play a 3 shot kill build. I don't think that that was the point of the theif in the first place. The problem is that the nerfs to thief have affected  ALL builds, and now the only viable spec is glass simply because theif can't put out enough damage if they aren't pumping power/crit/critdmg. ANET has pidgeonholed thiefs into a pure DPS class with only 1 viable weapon combo.

Yes, we all agree that thieves are broken in the sense of basic class design--they can ONLY be DPS.  Period.  Anything else is either extremely suboptimal or just bad.

Sorta like ele's.  Eles have been pidgeon-holed into being bunker spec (or just getting real used to dying in three seconds).  Now it looks like they're wanting to take that away.  How would you feel if in the next patch, thieves got an even more severe round of nerfs to the point where they do less damage than, say, a guardian?

That's where ele is heading.  Elementalists are already an unbalanced class (not OP, but unbalanced).  It's a class designed around constantly switching attunements--after all, we give up a second weapon for it--but we have horrible recharge rates without investing pretty heavily into Arcana tree.  The majority of our traits are useless--they're either just plain bad or they only really enhance one attunement, which defeats the purpose of constantly switching attunements.

Oh, and let's not forget that Anet outright broke a fair number of skills last patch (like Dragon's Tooth) and a few of the 'buffs' were pointless (has anyone noticed magnetic grasp and rtl hitting more often?) or just didn't work at all (looking at you, mist form cooldown).

So yes, Ele players are a tad upset that everyone is screaming for their blood when other classes who are generally considered to be the best just really aren't even touched that much.  Once Anet finishes crapping on ele bunker builds, there will be exactly zero niches for eles to fill that other classes cannot do significantly better.

#29 biscuits

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:49 AM

what is this S/D bunker build they are speaking of?

#30 CLouD PR

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:52 AM

View PostDataPhreak, on 02 December 2012 - 03:53 AM, said:

DD has been nerfed, HS has been nerfed, Death Blossom has been nerfed, CnD has been nerfed, Cluster Bomb has been nerfed, Pistol Whip has been nerfed, Tactical Strike has been nerfed. Literally every weapon has been nerfed over the last 3 patches. Forget about stealth? Nah, bro. And you're saying I didn't watch 1 ele tank 10 people at once (Post 11/15 I might add...)? yeah, I did. there's at least 3 eles on maguma i've seen do this.



I use all my skills constantly, both on sbow and dagger/dagger, as well as my utilities, and I DON'T play a 3 shot kill build. I don't think that that was the point of the theif in the first place. The problem is that the nerfs to thief have affected  ALL builds, and now the only viable spec is glass simply because theif can't put out enough damage if they aren't pumping power/crit/critdmg. ANET has pidgeonholed thiefs into a pure DPS class with only 1 viable weapon combo.

First off, lets begin by saying that I play tpvp very often and am based on Stormbluff Isle. I have a partial-team/guild and play with people on the friends list only during the tourneys on my ele. Unfortunately, most of what you say here either doesn't make sense or is simply unreasonable.

1 ele tank 10 people? This would never happen in a tpvp or spvp scenario as the games are only 8v8 (hotjoin) or 5v5 (tpvp) at max for both. Don't count WvW when 10 low levels / undergeared players are attacking a lvl 80 with full exotic bunker spec gear since that doesn't make for any sense here at all.

If you played tpvp at all, you'd understand that thieves have only one role in tpvp and thats to play a 3 shot kill build. By not playing a 3 shot kill build, you are limiting your ability to help your team whether you believe it or not. What doesn't make sense to me is that you don't play the only thief build you think is viable ... That being said, the problem here is that the only remainder of what is left of the ele after so many continuous nerfs is essentially a bunkerish build with heals to stay alive in tpvp. If they decide to nerf that in the next patch, as was hinted by the devs and encouraged by pro players that don't even play ele (already pointed out in earlier posts), then there really isn't much left to do as an ele in pvp.

While I don't generally post, I just want this thread to raise awareness in hopes that the devs will really read this coming from a ele that tpvps quite often and decide not to nerf a class that doesn't need a nerf further.




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