78 replies to this topic

[AetherMcLoud]

Pretty much since the dawn of multiplayer gaming the "learn 2 play" argument gets used. And after yesterday's developer stream it's gotten even more use.

The problem is, it's not only a dead-end argument, but it's also completely without meaning and nothing but a double standard. Let me explain:

At and after release there were a LOT of whines about thieves and mesmers killing everone left and right. Tournament players (mostly rightly so) said that this was clearly a L2P issue because they didn't have those problems in tPVP, and/or there were counters for most of it (besides a few issues like portal, etc.)

Same goes for 100b warriors and a few other builds/professions. Everything always is a L2P issue.

Yet now in the developer stream, those very players who said said "L2P" at those 100b, thieves, etc. whiners now want to call for nerfs for this and that.

To this I simply say: L2P. If they can't handle ele downed state they should simply have a build that gives them enough defense to survive until the vapor form wears off and then stomp the now defenseless ele.
They said warrior condition removal is so underpowered. To this I say: L2P, why don't you dodge the conditions before they are applied? Why don't you LOS before they are applied.
They said AOE is too strong. To this I say L2P, why don't they use their invulnerbilities while rezzing, and/or rez with 2 people to make it faster? Why did they die in the first place? Clearly a L2P issue.

The list can go on without end. Because where do you draw the line? A class could have an ability on 6 seconds cooldown that does 4 million damage in 1 second without any setup. And if you die to it I could say: L2P, you should have dodged every 5 seconds. I realize I'm playing the devils advocate here but this is just to say that the whole L2P stuff has no end.

So, those so-called "pros" (which in itself is ridiculous because they don't make money by playing) should have absolutely no saying in balancing ever, because they themselves simply need to L2P better. Their notion of "anet should do what we say because we know what's best for the game" is beyond ridiculous.

Edited by AetherMcLoud, 02 December 2012 - 05:37 AM.

[Absolute13]

So much cry in one post. Play tournaments, you'll see that your post was completely waste of your and readers time.

[AetherMcLoud]

Absolute13, on 02 December 2012 - 05:39 AM, said:

So much cry in one post. Play tournaments, you'll see that your post was completely waste of your and readers time.

LOL. I do nothing but play tournaments when I log on. Your post was a complete waste of time and I actually should be considered a saint for actually answering it faithfully.

Edited by AetherMcLoud, 02 December 2012 - 05:43 AM.

[Absolute13]

Oh please tell me how many paid tournaments you have actually won...

Edited by Absolute13, 02 December 2012 - 05:45 AM.

[Roland Der Meister]

Lord Ele downed state well i should say vapor form is the most OP downed skill and needs a quick fix just remove the health reset and no would care about it any more even though theirs are alot of things that can be done to get away while in vapor form.

[Flaming_Foxx]

Roland Der Meister, on 02 December 2012 - 06:21 AM, said:

Lord Ele downed state well i should say vapor form is the most OP downed skill and needs a quick fix just remove the health reset and no would care about it any more even though theirs are alot of things that can be done to get away while in vapor form.

Uhhh, there's no health reset from Vapor form O_o. Also, it's only overpowered for PvP or WvW. It is insanely necessary in PvE. You also aren't taking into account that the Ele downed state skill attack 1 has a much slower cast rate and damage output than any other profession. Leave Ele's alone! We are so so squishy

[Featherman]

Flaming_Foxx, on 02 December 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

Uhhh, there's no health reset from Vapor form O_o. Also, it's only overpowered for PvP or WvW. It is insanely necessary in PvE. You also aren't taking into account that the Ele downed state skill attack 1 has a much slower cast rate and damage output than any other profession. Leave Ele's alone! We are so so squishy

It's not technically a health reset. It's a down reset. You may not notice in PvE if you use the skill immediately after you're downed, but after using the skill the game resses you in mist form and then downs you again after the it ends. Using it too often builds up your down penalty and will eventually kill you.

[Casiidy]

So you think that L2P is a stupid and dumb argument, yet you are using it. I'm not sure I understand how this is a legitimate argument.

[Aodan]

Why hasn't this thread been locked down?

I could go into a long post about how much skill and knowledge you need to really understand what is op and not in this game, but if you think a thread like this gets you any closer, there is no point in trying to explain.

Absolute13, on 02 December 2012 - 05:44 AM, said:

Oh please tell me how many paid tournaments you have actually won...

My bet is less than 300

[GammaWolf]

I agree in principle.

The whole point of the post is that its contradictory to say LTP about some things, yet claim other things are OP. You can say LTP to justify anything.

That is the problem with players trying to balance a game. When they win its a LTP issue, when the lose it a skill X is OP issue.

Hardcore players are in a better position to see when something is breaking the game simply because they have a lot of hours logged and have been exposed to many different situations. They still however do not have access to the numbers under the hood or the aggregate data that is derived from thousands of people playing.

Perception is also important if for nothing else then PR or business reasons. If a noob joins a match gets 100b 3 times and 2 shot backstabbed a few times, he may get the impression that the game is based on spamming burst and is not fun so he quits. Saying LTP noob may feed one's ego, but is not going to retain a customer.

You can't ignore the noob experience because like it or not, its the masses that a game successful not the 'pros'.

[Featherman]

GammaWolf, on 02 December 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:

Snip

QFT

I cannot count the number of times I've heard that nonconstructive and snarky phrase thrown around. It defeats the purpose of reading forums to actually learn to play.

[Flaming_Foxx]

Featherman, on 02 December 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

It's not technically a health reset. It's a down reset. You may not notice in PvE if you use the skill immediately after you're downed, but after using the skill the game resses you in mist form and then downs you again after the it ends. Using it too often builds up your down penalty and will eventually kill you.

Exactly! The person I was replying to was suggesting that Vapor Form is OP'd, I don't think getting even more downed penalty is OP... Considering it's a negative. Also, the health degeneration from Downed state continues to go down while in Vapor Form, meaning that if you had low health in downed state, as in you had already been downed recently, you can actually go into Vapor form and then instantly die the second is expires... Which is another huge negative since you loose more than the casting time of other Professions 2nd slot skill.

[Sword Hammer Axe]

I actually like the point of this thread, and feel for OP when I see the replies...

True, there is a definite tendency for the L2P argument, especially among hardcore fans. Sometimes even the most valid point gets shot down by this argument, which is pretty much impossible to find an argument against, because no matter how many facts and figures you bring up, you won't be able to get past this line.

However, it is also true that a lot of people tend to complain about every little thing. They get killed a lot by one profession, then that profession must be overpowered. They have a hard time killing another, then that one must be overpowered too. It's still a game that requires a certain level of skill, which isn't given to you, but acquired over a period of time and trial. Sometimes, the L2P argument, however useless it is, is the only real way you can argue. Actually, it isn't as much an argument as it's a discussion closer.

Generally it's about finding a balance between one and the other when arguing, but it can be difficult sometimes, as people's sense of skill/pain/etc. differs, making one person's reasonable struggle another's hell on earth... eh... in Tyria.

[Cevilo]

In some circumstances, "L2P" is a valid point, as many stated above, but like every thing else on the internet gets overused and thrown around in situations it shouldn't be in. the way I see it, if there is a valid counter to something, like 100b, it's def a l2p issue, not a balance issue. if it's something legitimately op, IE your 4 million damage super buster, with a recharge time faster than your dodge recharge rate. then it's a balance issue not a skill issue. but this is why Anet needs to listen to both sides of the argument. so *hopefully* no brash nerfs happen.

[Eon Lilu]

Well done OP you hit the nail on the head there.

[Skyro]

You might want to look up what a straw man argument is and get back to us.

[MrForz]

Good job, OP.

[Roland Der Meister]

Flaming_Foxx, on 02 December 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

Exactly! The person I was replying to was suggesting that Vapor Form is OP'd, I don't think getting even more downed penalty is OP... Considering it's a negative. Also, the health degeneration from Downed state continues to go down while in Vapor Form, meaning that if you had low health in downed state, as in you had already been downed recently, you can actually go into Vapor form and then instantly die the second is expires... Which is another huge negative since you loose more than the casting time of other Professions 2nd slot skill.

Vapor Form is Op It last only 3 seconds and even if your like 200 health from dying when it ends you are redowened with 50% health basically zero to hero. 3 seconds is enough time to run into a shadow refuge or behind your teammates to safety its extremely annoying to finish a good Bunker elementalist and if it manages to rally your not gonna kill the bunker ele before his downed penalty resets.

Edited by Roland Der Meister, 02 December 2012 - 12:42 PM.

[Leeto]

What a stupid topic, seems OP didnt even put any thought in this. You dont need to be top notch player to see difference between L2P issue... If ele down state is actually L2P issue and your not just some sore ass mongoloid then give us tips how to counter it? Get beaten by warrs with 100k blade? L2P and counter it by dodge, blind etc. Now let me learn 2 play and educate how to prevent ele from using vapor form, running to resers in vapor form, making it restore down state HP?
Learn 2 play = learn to counter, you cant learn to counter something that has no counters. Thats the difference between OP and top players, top players actually use brain.

[megamor]

I can account forthe fact that this game is based mostly on skill
Take a example from pve from my experience:
At the betas I opened a thief because it's my favorite and I died from any mob I encountered
But now that the game has been released I am the olly person standing a lot of times.

Of course this is only an example from pve
I never did spvp so far and did only wvw when it comes to fighting other players
And during my first time in wvw I died way too much that I actually went broke from repairing
But at the second time I already killed the first player for me and since then I've become better at by learning what to do and of course the most important point of he game "dodging"

[Xsiriss]

True to an extent, but skill is a huge factor. Teleports and invulnerability (especially in a downed state where you've already been bested) blur the line because whilst predictable there's no way of preventing it wasting precious time.

I think that had interrupts been introduced properly and beyond something that borderlines spam or reliance on CC (knockdown interrupts relying on actually KDing) a lot of problems would have counters.

[Touche]

I agree with the OP. While some of the issues brought up by the "pros" were legitimate they are the hypocrites here. You can't call one thing a L2P issue and another a mechanical issue when in fact these problems are all either one or the other or both. For them to simply say it's this or that because we've played for so many hours and you should agree with us is pretty much absurd.

Just because they have been exposed to it the most and have dealt with these issues does not mean they are right.

They are pretty much going the route of the numbers game and saying more is better. That is not always true.

Edited by Touche, 02 December 2012 - 03:30 PM.

[redslion]

Well, mist form has never be a problem to me. Never played organized Pvp, but in my experience the elementalist never had somewhere to run in mist form.

However, learn to play is a problem, but for other reasons: for instance, I'm testing a complex build for engineer, a bunker with rifle, bomb kit and toolkit. I liked it a lot, becaus it was solid, it dealt decent damage, it was unique... and it was mine. But I realized most of the times I died like an idiot without using half of the skills I had. I need to perfect my playstyle , enhancing my reflexes and so on. I think that's what really learn to play means. But I don't think someone can say I don't know the basic concepts. So you might be right, but if you say L2P to someone, he might also think you are a troll.
Shouldn't we say, instead of L2P, IYPS (Improve Your Play Style), or PYPS (Polish your Play Style)?

Well, other than saying learn to play about an issue, say also how you deal with that. Then it can still be difficult, but at least you gave some meaning to your statement. That's also because sometimes the tragedy happens: two mighty L2P guys clash one against the other. Each one saying he has a big ... rank, but disagreeing on certain positions. But if the only reason they use to what they want to say is their rank, it's not enough.

[Elemental Gearbolt]

Leeto, on 02 December 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

What a stupid topic, seems OP didnt even put any thought in this. You dont need to be top notch player to see difference between L2P issue... If ele down state is actually L2P issue and your not just some sore ass mongoloid then give us tips how to counter it? Get beaten by warrs with 100k blade? L2P and counter it by dodge, blind etc. Now let me learn 2 play and educate how to prevent ele from using vapor form, running to resers in vapor form, making it restore down state HP?
Learn 2 play = learn to counter, you cant learn to counter something that has no counters. Thats the difference between OP and top players, top players actually use brain.

It's a L2P issue of course, how else would talk to somebody who find too difficult to follow a dude in a clear vaporous form, if I can stomp a guy in the middle of his team...maybe you can and maybe those PRO can, I think I have enough QP and won tournaments to understand few basic tactics

Should I come to the forum and cry when:

- mesmer illusion stay up even when the owner is down and continue to unleash hell, in some instances causing your own death
- ranger who can potentially chain 4 interrupts = stun/wolf fear/wold kd/ second stun
- engineer who can count on 2 interrupts

But hey all these got counters no?! So what about these "PRO" use their brain and try not to rush and stomp the ele but rather AOE him and who try to ress him, then go and stomp him ? Too much to ask isn't it?...well after all one play a BS thief spammer and the other is a well staff spammer, what more to say...

Edited by Elemental Gearbolt, 02 December 2012 - 11:57 PM.

[Ziddy]

You don't balance SC2 around bronze league players.  You might make some things a bit easier on them, but the meta and main issues are always polled and taken from professional gamers.

So in essence, yes, you should learn to play in a lot of situations.  Some things can be broken, but for the most part, I'd say gw2 balance isn't bad.

[nurt]

No... but this thread is quite possibly the dumbest argument ever.

[Featherman]

Ziddy, on 03 December 2012 - 12:03 AM, said:

You don't balance SC2 around bronze league players.  You might make some things a bit easier on them, but the meta and main issues are always polled and taken from professional gamers.

So in essence, yes, you should learn to play in a lot of situations.  Some things can be broken, but for the most part, I'd say gw2 balance isn't bad.

I'd agree with you but this isn't starcraft. GW2 meta is still very underdeveloped with a very small pool of "pros" and with that very limited team comps and playstyles. They need to open up the meta to more fresh players before any talk of balance can be taken seriously.

[Snipes]

Roland Der Meister, on 02 December 2012 - 06:21 AM, said:

Lord Ele downed state well i should say vapor form is the most OP downed skill and needs a quick fix just remove the health reset and no would care about it any more even though theirs are alot of things that can be done to get away while in vapor form.

I'm pretty sure vengeance > mist form.

[RandolfRa]

Leeto, on 02 December 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

What a stupid topic, seems OP didnt even put any thought in this. You dont need to be top notch player to see difference between L2P issue... If ele down state is actually L2P issue and your not just some sore ass mongoloid then give us tips how to counter it? Get beaten by warrs with 100k blade? L2P and counter it by dodge, blind etc. Now let me learn 2 play and educate how to prevent ele from using vapor form, running to resers in vapor form, making it restore down state HP?
Learn 2 play = learn to counter, you cant learn to counter something that has no counters. Thats the difference between OP and top players, top players actually use brain.

That's too bad. I quess you just have to finish the ele's teammates first before taking on the ele himself. Or you can jump on the ele and burst him and his ressers. Lot's of other tricks as well. Tricks that you'd know of if you'd just L2P.

Edited by RandolfRa, 03 December 2012 - 12:35 PM.

[Saturday]

Lost lost a post I spent ~2 hours working on because I hit the back button by accident, and as soon as I realized this forum has a weird autosave feature, it overwrote my post.  So, in summary:

-L2P isn't an argument, it's a dismissal.
-A counter always exists.  Whether or not a counter leads to good gameplay is what matters.