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So how do you guys deal with good eles?


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#1 derek1240

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 06:39 AM

I consider myself a great player but honestly against a good ele i can fight on par but will always lose.
I use the typical shatter build 10/30/0/0/30 and even dodging almost everything and using stun breaks when needed i will almost always lose.

Against a good ele since the majority of your damage comes from sword it is very predictable even from invis and fleeing. What do you do if you cannot land your immobilize.

It seems like they have near unlimited healing and even with the uptime of mesmer invulnerability and staff chaos fields ect i end up dying in the end.

Im running with zerker ammy and knight jewel and switch between multiple runes

Is it possible to run glass canon shatter spec successfully against an ele or am i forced into a more defensive playstyle?

I run with decoy blink mirror images normally

#2 rastazi

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 06:42 AM

Smart d/d eles are what convinced me to switch from full berserker to full carrion. I get 22k HP and more condition damage. I wait for them to exit water attunement then instantly drop my shatter burst and aim to kill them before the next water rotation comes up. This leads to glassy d/d eles dying and bunker eles getting into an infinite battle with me until we give up and quit fighting.

#3 Featherman

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 06:56 AM

As rastazi says, you need to time your shatters. Confusion is killer once the cleanses are on cd and if you stack it with staff conditions it becomes difficult to cleanse after the cooldowns are done. Save your daze for when the ele heals. The one crucial heal you need to watch out for has a very obvious animation and if you interrupt it after one pulse it goes on full CD.

#4 Skyro

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 07:55 AM

Confusion is a lot stronger in WvW than sPvP... confusion damage is halved in sPvP. Really a big key in fighting all types of Eles is boon strips. I'm not really sure why the 10/30 variant of the shatter build is so popular (is this the WvW version? I don't really WvW much). 20/20 gives you access to the boon strip on shatter trait which is incredibly powerful in sPvP.

#5 derek1240

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 10:57 AM

View PostSkyro, on 02 December 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

Confusion is a lot stronger in WvW than sPvP... confusion damage is halved in sPvP. Really a big key in fighting all types of Eles is boon strips. I'm not really sure why the 10/30 variant of the shatter build is so popular (is this the WvW version? I don't really WvW much). 20/20 gives you access to the boon strip on shatter trait which is incredibly powerful in sPvP.
just tried this out and it made the difference eles arent bad now thanks

#6 Mitchhh

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:12 PM

Consider dropping one or two of your utilities for something a little more useful (especially Mirror Images isn't all that amazing (imo), you don't need 3 stun break utilities (1 or 2 plus Phased Retreat and Swap should really be all you'll ever need).

Going Null Field and/or Arcane Thievery will help immensely to deal with Elementalists as they often rely for a big part on boons and this makes short work of them, also as previously mentioned 20/20/0/0/30 is (imo) far superior to the spec you said you were running.

Finally, a lot of elementalists are running Ether Renewal atm, which while very strong is also easy to interrupt with pistol 5, f3, Signet of Domination or Mantra of Distraction.

#7 Sonzai_Moto

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 05:26 PM

I die. ;)

But seriously, I run arcane thievery, blink, and decoy as my utilities. I even trait a bit more for defense than the current meta. I kill a little slower, but die less too.

#8 Skyro

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 07:38 PM

Arcane thievery, in its current incarnation where it only removes/transfers 3 boons/conditions, is pretty bad. Null Field is superior in almost any scenario as it isn't as prone to miss or be blocked/blinded/whatever and has combo field potential for chaos armor.

#9 trclamp

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 10:48 PM

When u say "good eles" that can kill u, I assume u mean bunker or semi-bunker s/d or d/d ones. They have high armor(around 3K), low hp(around 15K) and a lot of healings. What u need to know is most of their healings come from water attunement.

1. When they switch to water attunement, that's 3K ish healing. Attunement cooldown is 9 to 15 secs, usually 9 lol
2. When they use water 5, thats 2.5k. Cooldown is 40 secs. If they use s/d, water 3 heals another 2.5k, cooldown is 20 secs.
3. If they have evasive arcana trait, thats an extra 2.5K if they dodge under water attunement. Can be triggered every 10 secs.
4. Healing utility is around 3~6k, cooldown is 15~25 secs. If they use signet of restoration, thats 300 per cast.

OK, so ur dealing with someone who has 3K armor and all these healings, not to mention they prolly have 3 cantrips that give them invunerability/condion removal/teleport. Why do u think u can kill a bunker by yourself? Mesmers are OP but not that OP. The real problem here is...u got killed by bunkers. Perhaps its because ur running a glass cannon shatter and the bunker eles happen to be able to outdamage ur heals. Bunker eles may have good condition dmg, so watch out for burning/bleeding.(my d/d build burns nearly 5k per 10 secs, fire 2 alone is 12 secs burning if all hits, and cool down is 5 secs lol)

#10 derek1240

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:22 AM

View Posttrclamp, on 02 December 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

When u say "good eles" that can kill u, I assume u mean bunker or semi-bunker s/d or d/d ones. They have high armor(around 3K), low hp(around 15K) and a lot of healings. What u need to know is most of their healings come from water attunement.

1. When they switch to water attunement, that's 3K ish healing. Attunement cooldown is 9 to 15 secs, usually 9 lol
2. When they use water 5, thats 2.5k. Cooldown is 40 secs. If they use s/d, water 3 heals another 2.5k, cooldown is 20 secs.
3. If they have evasive arcana trait, thats an extra 2.5K if they dodge under water attunement. Can be triggered every 10 secs.
4. Healing utility is around 3~6k, cooldown is 15~25 secs. If they use signet of restoration, thats 300 per cast.

OK, so ur dealing with someone who has 3K armor and all these healings, not to mention they prolly have 3 cantrips that give them invunerability/condion removal/teleport. Why do u think u can kill a bunker by yourself? Mesmers are OP but not that OP. The real problem here is...u got killed by bunkers. Perhaps its because ur running a glass cannon shatter and the bunker eles happen to be able to outdamage ur heals. Bunker eles may have good condition dmg, so watch out for burning/bleeding.(my d/d build burns nearly 5k per 10 secs, fire 2 alone is 12 secs burning if all hits, and cool down is 5 secs lol)
yeah its mainly the d/d eles

Edited by Corsair, 03 December 2012 - 06:57 AM.
Removed quoted removed post


#11 Psikerlord

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:08 AM

View Posttrclamp, on 02 December 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

When u say "good eles" that can kill u, I assume u mean bunker or semi-bunker s/d or d/d ones. They have high armor(around 3K), low hp(around 15K) and a lot of healings. What u need to know is most of their healings come from water attunement.

1. When they switch to water attunement, that's 3K ish healing. Attunement cooldown is 9 to 15 secs, usually 9 lol
2. When they use water 5, thats 2.5k. Cooldown is 40 secs. If they use s/d, water 3 heals another 2.5k, cooldown is 20 secs.
3. If they have evasive arcana trait, thats an extra 2.5K if they dodge under water attunement. Can be triggered every 10 secs.
4. Healing utility is around 3~6k, cooldown is 15~25 secs. If they use signet of restoration, thats 300 per cast.

OK, so ur dealing with someone who has 3K armor and all these healings, not to mention they prolly have 3 cantrips that give them invunerability/condion removal/teleport. Why do u think u can kill a bunker by yourself?

Isnt this precisely the problem? Shouldnt every class be able to 1v1 every other class? I dont know, perhaps 1v1 balance is not intended. I would be very interested to know if Anet has ever officially indicated whether the game is based on 1v1 balance or not.

#12 derek1240

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:37 AM

View PostPsikerlord, on 03 December 2012 - 07:08 AM, said:

Isnt this precisely the problem? Shouldnt every class be able to 1v1 every other class? I dont know, perhaps 1v1 balance is not intended. I would be very interested to know if Anet has ever officially indicated whether the game is based on 1v1 balance or not.
its not 1v1 balanced but my question is are mesmers supposed to be able to deal with good eles that are partial bunker d/d
i mean i can gimp one out of the blue

#13 Nasha

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:44 PM

Hi !
I'm playing a Shatter based mesmer (Sword-Pistol / Staff or GS - 20/20/0/0/30) and i'm also having some difficulty with ele, especialy with Trebuchet specialized ones.
They always manage to take my treb down :(

Does any body have advices to counter these ele ?

#14 Skyro

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:39 PM

View PostNasha, on 03 December 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

Hi !
I'm playing a Shatter based mesmer (Sword-Pistol / Staff or GS - 20/20/0/0/30) and i'm also having some difficulty with ele, especialy with Trebuchet specialized ones.
They always manage to take my treb down :(

Does any body have advices to counter these ele ?

It's a waste of time trying to protect your treb vs bunker eles. Just drop your portal and ditch your treb and go help at the close point or clocktower as both points are close to the repair kit. The ele then has the choice to leave the treb at low hp or kill it, and also if they should wait for you to portal back or leave immediately. Then just take it from there depending on how the match progresses.

#15 Vihar

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:47 PM

All gamesmanship aside from other threads....

First I will state that my first main toon was a D/D Ele, which I dropped around mid October in favor of the Mesmer.

  I have no real experience in sPVP, but plenty on both toons in WvW.

  A D/D Ele has 3 strengths...mobility, AoE damage, and toughness (skills, not the stat, necessarily).

   It's weaknesses are range, and sheer DPS, relying primarily on conditions.

   I think you are in the unfortunate position of being a shatter build, which on my D/D ele I had no trouble destroying. A D/D ele uses AoE around themselves anyway, and this makes destroying clones pretty easy for them. They are also more mobile than your clones and can often avoid shatters even when you get your clones out.

   The trick with a D/D Ele is two things...

  DO NOT let them get on top of you and stay there. You need to keep moving and stay outside of melee range, at the very least.

  Direct ranged damage will beat them down if you can keep them outside of range 600. Using a sword and being a shatter build, you are unfortunately the ideal mesmer build for a D/D Ele, needing to be close range.

   My advice would be to equip a staff or Greatsword as a secondary weapon. staff for a defensive playstyle, or a Greatsword for a more offensive playstyle. Greatsword may be better with it's knockback skill 5, and clone generating skill 2 with a short CD.

  Now, after all this, I would say this...if a dagger Ele wants to survive and get away, they will survive and get away. You are just not going to be able to punch through their active and passive defensive skills and outrun them at the same time.

  But..if you can kite them, apply direct DPS, and maybe hit them with shatter skills from time to time that apply conditions, you should be OK and be able to drive them off.

  If you try to beat them with a sword at melee range, and rely on clones, you are going to struggle....a D/D Ele relies on close range AoE attacks that fundamentally counter your strengths.

  You need distance and direct DPS, using clones to confuse them and apply conditions.

   Hope this helps.

Edited by Vihar, 05 December 2012 - 05:47 PM.


#16 Theomancer

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:46 PM

Vihar, thanks for that writeup, that's brilliant.

#17 Kumakichi

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 01:17 PM

Thanks Vihar for good insights.  I have couple questions if you read this.  

1. Are you saying that shatter builds need to use a staff and great patience against a d/d Ele by kiting them?

2.  Are there opportunities i should look for to use #5 pistol and blink in for a shatter?   I know nearly nothing about Ele skills.

I dont mind playing defensive game of cat n mouse but just wondering what gaps to look for to go offensive.

#18 Vihar

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:56 PM

View PostKumakichi, on 07 December 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

Thanks Vihar for good insights.  I have couple questions if you read this.  

1. Are you saying that shatter builds need to use a staff and great patience against a d/d Ele by kiting them?

2.  Are there opportunities i should look for to use #5 pistol and blink in for a shatter?   I know nearly nothing about Ele skills.

I dont mind playing defensive game of cat n mouse but just wondering what gaps to look for to go offensive.

  The staff with it's 2, 4, and 5 skills will make life hard on a D/D ele, but won't be a huge threat to actually kill them as staff is just not a DPS weapon. A staff will make it hard for a D/D Ele to get on top of you and stay there, though.

The thing about the D/D Ele is that they have a TON of movement, and their DPS derives from a lot of AoE centered on themselves.

Any time you are close to them, they can damage you, or CC you. IF you want to blink in for a shatter, you'll probably hit him, but you will want an exit strategy to get away immediately...and you can expect to have some bleeds or burns on you, regardless.

   There is always more than one way to skin a cat.

   My point was mainly "do not play against the strengths of the D/D Ele, play against its weaknesses." That means keep your distance, because there is almost NOTHING a D/D Ele can do at range, except for 2 skills they can use to close the distance on you. That's where the Greatsword 5 and Staff 2 skills come in.

  Remember, an Ele cannot switch weapons like other classes. If they are running D/D...they do not have any long range skills, but they have TONS of AE skills in melee range.

  Also, GS and Staff generate phantasms, which will DPS the Elementalist even if the shatter skills fail.

#19 derek1240

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 10:31 PM

View PostVihar, on 07 December 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

  The staff with it's 2, 4, and 5 skills will make life hard on a D/D ele, but won't be a huge threat to actually kill them as staff is just not a DPS weapon. A staff will make it hard for a D/D Ele to get on top of you and stay there, though.

The thing about the D/D Ele is that they have a TON of movement, and their DPS derives from a lot of AoE centered on themselves.

Any time you are close to them, they can damage you, or CC you. IF you want to blink in for a shatter, you'll probably hit him, but you will want an exit strategy to get away immediately...and you can expect to have some bleeds or burns on you, regardless.

   There is always more than one way to skin a cat.

   My point was mainly "do not play against the strengths of the D/D Ele, play against its weaknesses." That means keep your distance, because there is almost NOTHING a D/D Ele can do at range, except for 2 skills they can use to close the distance on you. That's where the Greatsword 5 and Staff 2 skills come in.

  Remember, an Ele cannot switch weapons like other classes. If they are running D/D...they do not have any long range skills, but they have TONS of AE skills in melee range.

  Also, GS and Staff generate phantasms, which will DPS the Elementalist even if the shatter skills fail.
Yes this is the biggest problem. If I go class canon ill have the damage to be a threat and possibly burst an ele that doesnt pay attemtion but I will not have the endurance to fight for long because of the constant dot from fire. I do use staff and taking some boon removal has amde things slightly better but the fact is if its a good ele and players are evenly skilled then i dont believe it to be possible to reliably win.

If i go more tanky....... well we all know it ends up with neither side killing anything so i guess ill just accept the fact. I do use staff and many times blink and shatter just because i know a good ele will just remove my immobilize then dodgeroll my flurry. Frustrating but thats how it works. Only reason i was frustrated is that they said good shatter mesmers will kill them everytime which i believe is bs coming from a d/d ele probably just saying that to talk down to me.

#20 Skyro

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:04 AM

View Postderek1240, on 08 December 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

Yes this is the biggest problem. If I go class canon ill have the damage to be a threat and possibly burst an ele that doesnt pay attemtion but I will not have the endurance to fight for long because of the constant dot from fire. I do use staff and taking some boon removal has amde things slightly better but the fact is if its a good ele and players are evenly skilled then i dont believe it to be possible to reliably win.

If i go more tanky....... well we all know it ends up with neither side killing anything so i guess ill just accept the fact. I do use staff and many times blink and shatter just because i know a good ele will just remove my immobilize then dodgeroll my flurry. Frustrating but thats how it works. Only reason i was frustrated is that they said good shatter mesmers will kill them everytime which i believe is bs coming from a d/d ele probably just saying that to talk down to me.

It really depends what situation we're talking about. D/D Eles CAN be easy to kill if they aggressively try to kill you, and vice versa. If both of you play the survival game it becomes somewhat of a stalemate if you're fighting in an open field. The issue arrises (at least for me) in point contest scenarios where the D/D Ele has a much easier time staying on the point than a shatter mesmer. D/D Eles can also escape from any engagement very easy as well, making them excellent for far point harass. Combine that with their strong group buffs and you have a very versatile class. It amazes me sometimes the amount of whine you see on the Ele forums.

#21 derek1240

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 02:00 PM

View PostSkyro, on 10 December 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

It really depends what situation we're talking about. D/D Eles CAN be easy to kill if they aggressively try to kill you, and vice versa. If both of you play the survival game it becomes somewhat of a stalemate if you're fighting in an open field. The issue arrises (at least for me) in point contest scenarios where the D/D Ele has a much easier time staying on the point than a shatter mesmer. D/D Eles can also escape from any engagement very easy as well, making them excellent for far point harass. Combine that with their strong group buffs and you have a very versatile class. It amazes me sometimes the amount of whine you see on the Ele forums.
As long as the ele is not a trash player i wouldnt call them ever easy to kill even if they play aggressively. They have alot of mechanics to save themselves if they mess up. As long as an ele doesnt go full zerker its usually a tough fight. Full GC eles are too easy to drop no matter how you play them

#22 Vihar

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 02:37 PM

The staff isn't really meant to kill people. It does crap damage, but it's a great defensive weapon.

  I think that the issues you are having are with the second weapon set which puts you face to face with the ele. I suspect you are getting whalloped with a Ring of Fire/Arcane wave combo, which was my main burst as a D/D ele.

#23 derek1240

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 02:01 AM

View PostVihar, on 10 December 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

The staff isn't really meant to kill people. It does crap damage, but it's a great defensive weapon.

  I think that the issues you are having are with the second weapon set which puts you face to face with the ele. I suspect you are getting whalloped with a Ring of Fire/Arcane wave combo, which was my main burst as a D/D ele.
yeah yeah its definitely that combo. Its the burning over time that makes me lose the fight since I don't really run with condi removal besides null field or boon swapping.

Ive had more luck not bothering with the sword 3 skill against good eles and just timed my blade flurry when the ele goes in for the attack and timing shatters when they open up on me. I realize it all about timing my dazes and using blink offensively.

Ive been thinking about trying out the GS but the ele has much better mobility and I doubt I would be able to adequately kite them. O well this games not really balanced for 1v1 so I guess ill just deal with it lol.

#24 Skyro

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:01 PM

View Postderek1240, on 11 December 2012 - 02:01 AM, said:

yeah yeah its definitely that combo. Its the burning over time that makes me lose the fight since I don't really run with condi removal besides null field or boon swapping.

Ive had more luck not bothering with the sword 3 skill against good eles and just timed my blade flurry when the ele goes in for the attack and timing shatters when they open up on me. I realize it all about timing my dazes and using blink offensively.

Ive been thinking about trying out the GS but the ele has much better mobility and I doubt I would be able to adequately kite them. O well this games not really balanced for 1v1 so I guess ill just deal with it lol.

It's not kiting exactly, but if you stay at ranged you will be out of range of most of their spells and it gives you more time to react to dodge their gap closers like Air 4 and Fire 3.




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