10 replies to this topic

[TGIFrisbie]

Which do you prefer to stock your team with when it comes to doing dungeons in general (not a specific dungeon)?  Which do you prefer to play as?

1.  Ranger
2.  Thief
3.  Engineer
4.  Mesmer
5.  Elementalist

I left out Heavy armors and Necromancer for what I would consider obvious reasons, as well as they aren't answers I am looking at for discussion.  Obviously that doesn't mean you can't use them or take them for Ranged dps.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Elementalist has the best ranged DPS and also the best survivability.  The truth is though that Guardian is actually second best in terms of ranged DPS, overall.

[SpelignErrir]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 02 December 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

Elementalist has the best ranged DPS and also the best survivability.  The truth is though that Guardian is actually second best in terms of ranged DPS, overall.

Against stationary targets...guardian scepter is trash against things that are moving. It's great for things like the boss in CoF path 1, though.

[dawdler]

Mesmer, most definetly. The utlity in dungeons beats pretty much anything.

At the opposite end, I would place the theif. I really fail to see the point in dungeons, aside from offering raw dps of course (in which case they usually die in every encounter).

[coglin]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 02 December 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

Elementalist has the best ranged DPS and also the best survivability.  The truth is though that Guardian is actually second best in terms of ranged DPS, overall.

You have limited knowledge of classes if you believe that an elementalist has better AoE damage then a grenade engineer with 1500 range, or even bombs for that matter.

[Swoopeh]

TGIFrisbie, on 02 December 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

I left out Heavy armors and Necromancer for what I would consider obvious reasons

Not too obvious because I'm wondering why you're leaving out Necros? Also are the options you listed the ones we should pick from ("they aren't answers I am looking at for discussion") or can we list what we would pick ("that doesn't mean you can't use them or take them for Ranged dps")? I don't mean to be obtuse but I'm a little confused.

Personally I'd at least want:
- Mesmer (time warp, moa morph, portals, boons, cleanses, feedback)
- Necro (wells, protection, cleanses, perma-cripple, blinds in general and a 30 sec aoe blind as an elite)
- Thief (caltrops, ranged deflect wall thingy)

But generally any combo will do tbh, we have Mumble so can coordinate things.

I know the topic is about ranged but I do want to make sure we have a guardian (which can be ranged) because they offer so much damage reduction.

Edited by Swoopeh, 04 December 2012 - 04:11 PM.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

coglin, on 04 December 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

You have limited knowledge of classes if you believe that an elementalist has better AoE damage then a grenade engineer with 1500 range, or even bombs for that matter.

Grenade engineer has good bleeding but does bad direct DPS.  Direct DPS is more important than bleeding in dungeons.  Engineer DPS is good on paper but not so good in practice for a couple of reasons:

1) You're capped at 25 stacks of bleed.  An engineer hits 15 stacks of bleed pretty easily so that only leaves 10 stacks left for the rest of the party.  Just two engineers in the same party is already wasting DPS.

2) You can't get full stats in PvE.  For starters, you lose the stats from your weapon, which is 179/128/128.  If you're looking at a Rabid set that's 19 damage per bleed tick and 6% crit chance lost.  Also, you can't get exotic Rabid jewelry, so you have to settle for Carrion or Rampager's.  I think you can get ascended Rabid back and rings?  Not sure.  Anyway, with exotic Rampager's and Rabid armor, my Engineer only bleeds for like 85 damage per tick, compared to like 100+ in PvP.

3) Condition damage doesn't even work on half the stuff in dungeons.  Yellow stuff that counts as environmental objects don't bleed (burrows, the snowblind fractals Ice Elemental, etc.) and for others your bleed damage doesn't boost like direct damage does (dredge fractal Ice Elemental, jotun champions in Arah, etc.) so you're pretty much dead weight in those situations.  Grenades also count as projectiles so enemies that reflect or neutralize projectiles, like the Jade Colossi, will roll right over you.

4) Vulnerability isn't as good as might.  For whatever reason Unshakeable cuts vulnerability to half duration, so at best you can get 10-12 stacks on a boss when normally you'd get 20-25.  That's compared to guardians and warriors, who stack a full-duration Might to the entire party regardless of the enemy.

Don't get me wrong, Engineer condition damage is still pretty good.  I usually prefer to have at least one properly-specced engineer in an optimal group.  That said, I wouldn't call them the "best" ranged class just for the reasons listed above.  And that's assuming the engineer can even hit with all his grenades while kiting constantly, which most can't.

[coglin]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 04 December 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

Grenade engineer has good bleeding but does bad direct DPS.

Weird. And here I am thinking 8k-11k AoEs are good direct damage.

GuanglaiKangyi, on 04 December 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

1) You're capped at 25 stacks of bleed.  An engineer hits 15 stacks of bleed pretty easily so that only leaves 10 stacks left for the rest of the party.  Just two engineers in the same party is already wasting DPS.

What are you talking about? This doesn't make any sense. The "HIGHEST" 25 stacks of bleeds stack. The system doesn't just take the fist 25 stacked and work off of them.

GuanglaiKangyi, on 04 December 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

2) You can't get full stats in PvE.  For starters, you lose the stats from your weapon, which is 179/128/128.  If you're looking at a Rabid set that's 19 damage per bleed tick and 6% crit chance lost.  Also, you can't get exotic Rabid jewelry, so you have to settle for Carrion or Rampager's.  I think you can get ascended Rabid back and rings?  Not sure.  Anyway, with exotic Rampager's and Rabid armor, my Engineer only bleeds for like 85 damage per tick, compared to like 100+ in PvP.

If your attempting to claim I cannot do 9k+ AoE damage in PvE, then you are merely offering evidence to support my accusation that you are not familiat with the class.

GuanglaiKangyi, on 04 December 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

3) Condition damage doesn't even work on half the stuff in dungeons. Yellow stuff that counts as environmental objects don't bleed

What does that have to do with grenades or bombs? Are you suggesting that bombs and grenades do not do much damage to environmental objects? That doesn't even make sense.

GuanglaiKangyi, on 04 December 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

4) Vulnerability isn't as good as might.

And? Are you suggesting the ability to stack 25 stacks of vulnerability by myself is a bad thing?

GuanglaiKangyi, on 04 December 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

Don't get me wrong, Engineer condition damage is still pretty good.

WTH are you talking about? Power scales much better with grenades then CD. If your mentality is to use condition damage with grenades, then you are part of the extreme minority.


Here is video evidence supporting what I say

Edited by coglin, 04 December 2012 - 11:16 PM.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

coglin, on 04 December 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

Weird. And here I am thinking 8k-11k AoEs are good direct damage.

What are you talking about? This doesn't make any sense. The "HIGHEST" 25 stacks of bleeds stack. The system doesn't just take the fist 25 stacked and work off of them.

If your attempting to claim I cannot do 9k+ AoE damage in PvE, then you are merely offering evidence to support my accusation that you are not familiat with the class.


What does that have to do with grenades or bombs? Are you suggesting that bombs and grenades do not do much damage to environmental objects? That doesn't even make sense.


And? Are you suggesting the ability to stack 25 stacks of vulnerability by myself is a bad thing?


WTH are you talking about? Power scales much better with grenades then CD. If your mentality is to use condition damage with grenades, then you are part of the extreme minority.


Here is video evidence supporting what I say

I see your reading comprehension is as bad as ever.  I like your completely arbitrary, out-of-context numbers as well.  A full zerker Engineer does about 2.3k/s in PvP if you assume the 20 stacks of vuln.  In actuality, against bosses that's only going to be about 10 stacks, so it's around 2.1k/s.  That's lower than the guardian's scepter.  Plus, in PvE you lose the stats from your weapon so your actual DPS goes down even more.  It's going to be around 2.2k/s at best even if you account for the extra crit damage and power you can get in PvE.  That's actually worse than what a guardian gets with scepter.

By comparison, if you spec for bleeds you can get somewhere in the range of 2.9k/s from grenades alone.  Even given the stat loss in PvE that's still about 2.5k/s.

[coglin]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 05 December 2012 - 03:10 AM, said:

I see your reading comprehension is as bad as ever.  I like your completely arbitrary, out-of-context numbers as well.  A full zerker Engineer does about 2.3k/s in PvP if you assume the 20 stacks of vuln.  In actuality, against bosses that's only going to be about 10 stacks, so it's around 2.1k/s.  That's lower than the guardian's scepter.  Plus, in PvE you lose the stats from your weapon so your actual DPS goes down even more.  It's going to be around 2.2k/s at best even if you account for the extra crit damage and power you can get in PvE.  That's actually worse than what a guardian gets with scepter.

By comparison, if you spec for bleeds you can get somewhere in the range of 2.9k/s from grenades alone.  Even given the stat loss in PvE that's still about 2.5k/s.

AH, I am sorry it offended you. I am unclear how my numbers are arbitrary, and yours wouldn't be. Only one of the two of use offered a documentation of fact to support their claim.

Your claim that vulnerability stacks differently for bosses is illogical. Regardless of any misleading propaganda your attempting to spread, it is a bit pointless if you have no real fact to prove it. Would you like me to produce you a video of a player putting 25 stacks of vulnerability on a dungeon boss? Which dungeon? Which boss?

You see, the difference between me and you, is you appear to feel confident making claims based on what you read, assumed, or developed a conclusion on randomly, while I on the other hand make claims based on personal experience, video, and factual numbers. Just tell me which boss and where, and I will post evidence for you.

Edited by coglin, 05 December 2012 - 04:03 AM.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

coglin, on 05 December 2012 - 04:02 AM, said:

AH, I am sorry it offended you. I am unclear how my numbers are arbitrary, and yours wouldn't be. Only one of the two of use offered a documentation of fact to support their claim.

Your claim that vulnerability stacks differently for bosses is illogical. Regardless of any misleading propaganda your attempting to spread, it is a bit pointless if you have no real fact to prove it. Would you like me to produce you a video of a player putting 25 stacks of vulnerability on a dungeon boss? Which dungeon? Which boss?

You see, the difference between me and you, is you appear to feel confident making claims based on what you read, assumed, or developed a conclusion on randomly, while I on the other hand make claims based on personal experience, video, and factual numbers. Just tell me which boss and where, and I will post evidence for you.

Haven't we had this exact same conversation before?  I'm pretty sure we have.  Someone says something and you get mad and start demanding "proof" and then get even more mad when someone actually gives you proof.

Anyway, if you want, go ahead and try to put 25 stacks of vulnerability on any boss with Unshakable.  Permanently, not "oh look i used all my skills and barely managed to get to 25 stacks for half a second".  And solo, of course, I think with you that needs to be said explicitly.

Bonus points if you leave in the part of you getting your ass handed to you by the boss, because I'm pretty sure that's what'll happen.