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Best profession for large scale battles or keep defense?


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#1 Alilei22

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 05:05 PM

The best thing I loved about DAoC were the massive battles.  I hated small manning and hated 8v8s.  I loved zerg surfing.  Whats the best class for doing that in this game?  I want to be able to drop tons of damage on people trying to take a keep we own or if running with a group of people and we come across another large group in the open or trying to take the a keep drop serious AoE on them.  I could care less if Im glass cannon and die in 10 seconds I just enjoy doing a lot of damage really fast to as many people as possible.

#2 Cruxisinhibitor

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 05:25 PM

View PostAlilei22, on 02 December 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

The best thing I loved about DAoC were the massive battles.  I hated small manning and hated 8v8s.  I loved zerg surfing.  Whats the best class for doing that in this game?  I want to be able to drop tons of damage on people trying to take a keep we own or if running with a group of people and we come across another large group in the open or trying to take the a keep drop serious AoE on them.  I could care less if Im glass cannon and die in 10 seconds I just enjoy doing a lot of damage really fast to as many people as possible.


I've played both warrior and guardian in WvW and i always seem to get stomped. Even in full exotics and non-glass cannon trait setup. A person would forget there's no trinity in this game with how some players last so long and never die. It seems like the whole system is very imbalanced, free-form, and flavor of the month oriented. I find that Thieves deal ridiculous amounts of damage and they never seem to die. Every time you start hitting one, they teleport, pop stealth, or chain and kill you in like 3-4 hits when you'll be lucky to hit for 1000 damage a few times before you die. Seems like everyone just bobs and weaves and if you're lucky to immobilize long enough, maybe you'll get a kill. Only time i've actually survived a fight with a thief was when i was running a bunker Guardian setup with mace and focus, but i think it's far too unfair to have to specialize that much to not get dropped by 1 class so easily. Then i gimp myself for fighting other specs like condition damage.

In WvW, i often feel extremely ineffective compared to other players. I don't know what it is, but my team doesn't seem to be as good as Tarnished Coast (I'm Fort Aspenwood), whose players overextend, kill 2-3 people then walk back to their zerg for defense. It gets really irritating because i feel like there is no solid synergy between classes, no structure to groups without a direct healer or roles, and everything just seems like a waste of time to sit in a zerg against 30 thieves. I cripple, i immobilize, somehow they just get away all the time. It doesn't seem very skill oriented, in fact, it feels quite the opposite. I much prefer the tight systems and feel of GW1 PvP.

So, my Answer is probably Thief. I feel like Thief is the most effective class in this game because most others are balanced-build wise, but with no healer, it doesn't really seem to matter. All that matters is DPS in this game and i think the Thief is the best for that. Thief, Elementalist, Mesmer, all excedingly good classes for WvW if used correctly. The DPS, the range, and the illusions of these classes make them super powerful in zerg battles. My warrior can't even longbow off a tower and over a small hill to hit players on a battlefield without using a trait. I find the imbalance and lack of structure to combat to be utterly frustrating. The trait system is absolutely ridiculous and i feel it doesn't fit in GW. I just feel like there is so much wrong with WvW. I don't find the zerg battles fun in any way, they just seem like a frustrating whack a mole game with very little skill involved.

#3 Wifflebottom

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 05:37 PM

With a thief you'll be able to pick off individuals that aren't paying attention or just caught up in a zerg. As an Ele (staff is really the best option in WvW) you are a master of AoE and you'll be damaging a bunch of people at once. Mesmers in WvW are great at utility with AoE quickness elite, mass invisibility, AoE condition removal, AoE boon/condition ability, reflection, and until recently the illusionary berserker could do a fair amount of damage by being thrown at keep defenders but now that's no longer an option so you wouldn't be focused on racking up kills. But those classes are all really good for WvW in different ways based on what you want to do I'd say go Ele you're less of a glass cannon and more of a "paper nuke"

#4 Alaroxr

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 07:10 PM

There isn't.

#5 Wrassler

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 09:07 PM

i enjoy necro a lot.  You can dish out the AoE with staff and epidemic and are able to escape most bad situations with combinations of spectral walk, death shroud and lich form.

#6 Elth

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 09:21 PM

I main a Thief and while they are good, I wouldn't say they are the best at what you want to do.  I completely understand what you mean with zerg surfing.  To successfully zerg surf you want range and AoE, I would suggest Elementalist or Ranger.  Those two professions allow you to mingle into the zerg and pick off targets from relative safety, they have plenty of AoE available to them so they are good for both tower offense and tower defense.  As a Thief, you can do all of these things but your range is limited to 900, whereas the others are 1200-1500 and they have more AoE options.

#7 Dabrixmgp

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 10:47 PM

Wouldnt a Grenade engineer be better than a ranger?

#8 Angarato86

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 10:57 PM

Ranger AOE isnt very good, but you have alot of range but its damage is mediocre at best. ele is probly better or engineer

#9 Aetou

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:29 PM

Staff Elementalist is best at what you want to do, plus after you overextend and get downed you can just hit Downed #2 to get back to safety and be picked back up by your team.  Ranger, with their 1500 range, have a different but still valuable role to play in terms of picking off key targets (but its mostly single target, so get in a small group and mark then kill in 2-3s seconds.)  One rather strange suggestion for what you want is a Guardian.  Wall of Reflection is capable of doing an insane amount of damage, while standing behind a door using Staff 1 also wrecks rams pretty effectively.  Thieves and Mesmers both have a very different role in WvW than what you're after while the other three are capable of things similar to those already mentioned but less effectively (aside from a well coordinated Epidemic.)  To be fair, though, for keep defence you should be on siege anyway as that does way more than even a staff ele.

#10 Achrisos

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:48 PM

As far as big aoe dam the best are engi, ele, and ranger. My Engi can sit at top of a keep and bomb 3k grenade attacks 1500 away. The radius may not be as big as some ele attacks but I find with ele aoe like meteor shower when it hits is too random and u can miss a lot whereas with grenades u can keep spamming the number 1 skill and no exactly where it's going to land.

#11 Fannwong

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:15 AM

The bunker warrior (great CC) or guardian (great buffs) is needed to spearhead an army, esp through AOE. Without them the group cannot push through. Here's an example of Anferno, a bunker warrior with SYN guild.

FW

Edited by Fannwong, 03 December 2012 - 12:16 AM.


#12 Meowser

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:14 AM

I play a staff guardian and I very rarely die. Part of that is picking and choosing my fights. AOE with a staff on a Guardian isn't great damage wise, but it does help confuse and panic a mindless zerg. Plus, the staff auto attack hits through walls and gates.

If you want to make yourself into a group healer guardian, you will feel how a battle flows through you. Condition removal, boons from conditions, AOE heals/might buffs, and Orbs of health will never be shied away from.

If you really want to do some AOE damage, the Greatsword and Hammer wreck the field. Plus if you're in a castle siege and want to bust out some ranged AOE damage... the Tome of Wrath turns you into a living siege weapon.

Which ever style you choose, the Guardian class is great for WvW. Just don't expect to be blown away by your damage output.

#13 TenorMadness

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 02:09 AM

View PostMeowser, on 03 December 2012 - 01:14 AM, said:

I play a staff guardian and I very rarely die. Part of that is picking and choosing my fights. AOE with a staff on a Guardian isn't great damage wise, but it does help confuse and panic a mindless zerg. Plus, the staff auto attack hits through walls and gates.

If you want to make yourself into a group healer guardian, you will feel how a battle flows through you. Condition removal, boons from conditions, AOE heals/might buffs, and Orbs of health will never be shied away from.

If you really want to do some AOE damage, the Greatsword and Hammer wreck the field. Plus if you're in a castle siege and want to bust out some ranged AOE damage... the Tome of Wrath turns you into a living siege weapon.

Which ever style you choose, the Guardian class is great for WvW. Just don't expect to be blown away by your damage output.

I'm not so sure about this. I play a Guardian too, and find WvW to be one huge disaster. I die constantly, never get any kills, and feel generally useless. The lack of ranged options really hurts. I use the staff as my main weapon, but do pitiful damage. What am I doing wrong?

#14 Alathon

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 03:07 AM

View PostCruxisinhibitor, on 02 December 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

I've played both warrior and guardian in WvW and i always seem to get stomped. Even in full exotics and non-glass cannon trait setup. A person would forget there's no trinity in this game with how some players last so long and never die. It seems like the whole system is very imbalanced, free-form, and flavor of the month oriented. I find that Thieves deal ridiculous amounts of damage and they never seem to die. Every time you start hitting one, they teleport, pop stealth, or chain and kill you in like 3-4 hits when you'll be lucky to hit for 1000 damage a few times before you die. Seems like everyone just bobs and weaves and if you're lucky to immobilize long enough, maybe you'll get a kill. Only time i've actually survived a fight with a thief was when i was running a bunker Guardian setup with mace and focus, but i think it's far too unfair to have to specialize that much to not get dropped by 1 class so easily. Then i gimp myself for fighting other specs like condition damage.

In WvW, i often feel extremely ineffective compared to other players. I don't know what it is, but my team doesn't seem to be as good as Tarnished Coast (I'm Fort Aspenwood), whose players overextend, kill 2-3 people then walk back to their zerg for defense. It gets really irritating because i feel like there is no solid synergy between classes, no structure to groups without a direct healer or roles, and everything just seems like a waste of time to sit in a zerg against 30 thieves. I cripple, i immobilize, somehow they just get away all the time. It doesn't seem very skill oriented, in fact, it feels quite the opposite. I much prefer the tight systems and feel of GW1 PvP.

So, my Answer is probably Thief. I feel like Thief is the most effective class in this game because most others are balanced-build wise, but with no healer, it doesn't really seem to matter. All that matters is DPS in this game and i think the Thief is the best for that. Thief, Elementalist, Mesmer, all excedingly good classes for WvW if used correctly. The DPS, the range, and the illusions of these classes make them super powerful in zerg battles. My warrior can't even longbow off a tower and over a small hill to hit players on a battlefield without using a trait. I find the imbalance and lack of structure to combat to be utterly frustrating. The trait system is absolutely ridiculous and i feel it doesn't fit in GW. I just feel like there is so much wrong with WvW. I don't find the zerg battles fun in any way, they just seem like a frustrating whack a mole game with very little skill involved.

This is a self-defeating attitude, if you write your ineffectiveness off to "all numbers no skill" you'll stay ineffective.  Roll a Thief or Mesmer (both are overpowered in their ways) and you may get better results, but not much better.  I say this because as a warrior, I've had great success both 1v1 and 50v50, and I don't even think I'm all that skill-wise.

#15 Norseman

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 03:23 AM

View PostAlathon, on 03 December 2012 - 03:07 AM, said:

This is a self-defeating attitude, if you write your ineffectiveness off to "all numbers no skill" you'll stay ineffective.  Roll a Thief or Mesmer (both are overpowered in their ways) and you may get better results, but not much better.  I say this because as a warrior, I've had great success both 1v1 and 50v50, and I don't even think I'm all that skill-wise.

Agreed. While I sympathize with cruxisinhibitor's frustration, I have to recommend you not listen to someone who admits they don't understand, then tries to give advice. I run solo and small 5 man groups in WvW against the toughest servers in the game and do fine. I can understand some would not like the playstyle, and if you love gear grind or the trinity this game is probably not for you.

So on to the OP's question, you sound like you would enjoy an elementalist. You can do AOE damage, single target damage, AOE heals, some crowd control. There are no huge nukes in this game (lets not talk about theifs...) rather it's a matter of mastering your skills then using them to your advantage.

I think Crux's problem, or one of them, is not learning to recognize when to use a skill and why, in order to maximize it's outcome. Some people want to make this game sound simplistic when it is not. You can't just push buttons and come close to competing out there.

Good luck!

#16 phani_kaushik

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 03:29 AM

Staff/Scepter-focus/torch Guardian is my main, and I love it for tower/keep defenses or to push the enemy out of your areas. Mesmer/Necros are also good with causing confusion among zergs and to stack conditions. But guardian is the best at what he does - defense. Get behind the gate while its being attacked, and use staff auto-attack and see numbers flying. If you don't see enough damage, use #4 on staff, stack might and get on #1. Wall of Reflection is a great utility to give the enemy a taste of their own medicine and a lot helpful when you want to keep pushing enemies back. Throw in WoR, and see enemies back off due to reflecting projectiles, push forward, use F2 for AoE heals, F3 for AoE shields, and keep pushing. Staff #2 orb now travels at a better speed and does excellent damage while passing through a line of foes. I Love my Guardian in these situations. I might die doing my duty, but I make sure to take a lot of my enemies with me.

#17 Nirvii

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:02 AM

I think Staff elementalist can serve your needs. If u want a big crit and ton of AoE damage, Staff elementalist is the class for you.
See my vid (and other vids previously) and if u enjoy my playstyle, that is the thing u're looking for


Please note that i always forget the food buff and im not doing 30 on lighting, so if u do all those mentioned, the crit number will grow higher than my vid :)

#18 LavaSquid

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:13 AM

The only 2 characters I have so...

Mesmer's portal is very useful for portal bomb which is quite effective for large scale field battle (surprise attack)  and keep defense (portal bomb to clear siege).

Warrior's Elite Battle Standard Banner is good at instant rez. "Fear Me" shouts are useful to break incoming zergs.

#19 elithrar

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:28 AM

View PostLavaSquid, on 03 December 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

Warrior's Elite Battle Standard Banner is good at instant rez. "Fear Me" shouts are useful to break incoming zergs.

A Shout Warrior with Soldier's runes (AoE condition removal for allies) and a Hammer can be a strong part of a melee train. Plenty of disables and the durability to stay in melee for extended periods.

LoD run a pretty effective Warrior train.

#20 LavaSquid

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:59 AM

View Postelithrar, on 03 December 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

A Shout Warrior with Soldier's runes (AoE condition removal for allies) and a Hammer can be a strong part of a melee train. Plenty of disables and the durability to stay in melee for extended periods.

LoD run a pretty effective Warrior train.

Haven't had the chance to see a warrior train but I think that will be awesome.

Imagine a squad of one single class, should be interesting to try out. Who knows, could be a new metagame :D

#21 Jacbo

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:41 AM

Bunker Elementalist (Staff or D/D depending on situation). Hammer Warrior. Staff Guardian. Greatsword Mesmer. Sword/Pistol Thief. Etc etc. Every class has zerg potential, you just need a certain degree of Vitality or Toughness (depending on class), and a good AOE toolkit.

#22 Impmon

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:35 PM

Warrior - Longbow with increase range trait you'll have decent AOE damage and useful in taking keeps.  In narrow passageways my longbow damage has pushed back zergs trying to get through with huge radius.  Drop full adrenaline combustive shot  is like elementalist meteor storm + arcing arrow and you'll be downing people.  

Staying at range is usually necessity as a warrior even defensive spec'd with shout heals once your in melee range you'll be dead fighting other zergs.  Not much utility for getting away from opponents.  Using a 2h hammer isn't viable really.  Most other professions have knockdowns too it isn't that great.

Many people disregard longbow on warrior but I prefer it.  You can blind, immobolize, AOE damage, burn dot all at range and if the person decides to get within melee range... well 100 blades.

Mesmer - Do well all over even if you don't use fotm spec's.  Almost all their utility skills are good.  Used to be even better when you could spawn phantasmal berserkers without line of sight  :P  However, their utility skills are well worth it.  

My most favorite skills is temporal curtain (focus weapon)  you can pull people off walls or send them off cliffs.  For example, enemies are on inner hills.  I run past to left for back entrance.  Three people chase me.  I teleport to the cliff, drop curtain on the edge and send all 3 to their death with one click.

Elementalist - I recently started playing one and the one thing I dislike is lack of alt weapons.  If you go dagger/dagger you're pretty uesless in a keep siege and have to back out of the fight to get your staff equipped.  Elementalist reminds me of shaman from wow.  They're more difficult in that you have a ton of abilities to manage which can be difficult for clickers but well played elementalist are beasts.  I watched a well played one take on 10 people and send them all running back into a keep.

Its fun using ride the lightning to blast into a group then open up with earth knockdown, followed by chilling them and finishing with aoe fire damage.  Then you can mist form and take off, ride the lightning away.  Get downed near keep switch to mist form and go back inside and rez  :P

#23 Zheo

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 02:47 PM

Ele or Ranger, imo. Find that both rain down destruction from the walls of keeps pretty well and hold their own in mid-field clashes.

#24 Jacbo

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:02 PM

View PostImpmon, on 03 December 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

Staying at range is usually necessity as a warrior even defensive spec'd with shout heals once your in melee range you'll be dead fighting other zergs.  Not much utility for getting away from opponents.  Using a 2h hammer isn't viable really.  Most other professions have knockdowns too it isn't that great.

I take it you've never been on the receiving end of LoD's O-Line. Trust me, it ain't pretty.



Range can never compare to melee when it comes to breaking a zerg. Especially melee with knockdowns, because guess what most people do when they get knocked down? They freak out, since they're no longer in control of their character, and assume they're being specifically singled out. So they run, and so does everyone else around them who is also being knocked down. Slaughter ensues. Range is great at holding ZvZ lines, melee is great at breaking them (with ranged support).

Edited by Jacbo, 03 December 2012 - 06:08 PM.


#25 Global_GW2

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:04 PM

View PostJacbo, on 03 December 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

I take it you've never been on the receiving end of LoD's Charr Mallet Squad. Trust me, it ain't pretty.

I have, and a full month later I'm still walking funny and can't sit down. ;)

#26 hefan

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:29 PM

Wondering is LoD the only guild running a melee train?

#27 Impmon

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:36 AM

View PostJacbo, on 03 December 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

I take it you've never been on the receiving end of LoD's O-Line. Trust me, it ain't pretty.



Range can never compare to melee when it comes to breaking a zerg. Especially melee with knockdowns, because guess what most people do when they get knocked down? They freak out, since they're no longer in control of their character, and assume they're being specifically singled out. So they run, and so does everyone else around them who is also being knocked down. Slaughter ensues. Range is great at holding ZvZ lines, melee is great at breaking them (with ranged support).

So the builds great if you have 10 other people to support you.

Edited by Impmon, 04 December 2012 - 12:38 AM.


#28 lollasaurus

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:03 AM

Ele, Engi, Guard, Necro

#29 Orikx

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:46 PM

View PostImpmon, on 04 December 2012 - 12:36 AM, said:

So the builds great if you have 10 other people to support you.

No the build makes it so small groups can wreck zergs. This is WvW if you don't want to be in a group you should be in sPvP solo holding a cap point or taking our Yaks.

The OP asked for an effect class for running in a group. That being said I don't think the hammer warrior sounds like what the OP is looking for but I could be wrong. It sounds like he wants to sit back and rain AoE death on people from range but maybe I am wrong.

That being said I'd say Ele or Engi.
Open field zerg vs zerg I think the Ele is slight better then Engi. In lag big open field fights where you get ability lag it can be hard to hit anything with grenades because of the slow travel time. Ele's seem to have a better time in open field. Keep/tower defense Engi's can nuke the hell out of large groups of people.

I don't know much about Rangers other then, if I am standing on a wall attacking people below and see rangers peppering me with arrows I stand there and tank it while killing people. If I see an Ele AoE I  move out of it.

#30 Impmon

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:01 PM

After playing elementalist more I'd have to say go with that profession using staff & dagger/dagger or scepter/dagger while roaming.  They have numerous CC and large radius aoe abilities that cause status effects.  Great for zerg surfing & lots of utility to get away.




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