43 replies to this topic

[Qethsegol]

I learned that I love conditions and hexes and stuff from GW1, but it seems hexes aren't in GW2. But condition spamming is a legit build. So which class does it best? A list of 1-8 would be phenomenal.

[Kelthien]

I'd say Necro is top (Epidemic is just a beast).
After that, Engineers and Mesmers can stack up a nice variety of conditions.

[Arkham Creed]

I don’t know about them all, but I know my engineer can throw out several stacks of burning, poison, bleed, and vulnerability to several foes at once with only a single attack. And that is just skills and traits, no weapon mods. Also, bonus, the poison in my build comes from the elixir gun skill fumigate, which also cures conditions on allies. The elixir gun also has a nice spammable AOE heal, and a bouncing cripple skill with very low cool down making it easy to perm-snare multiple foes at once.

Elixir Gun + high crit chance + high condition damage + high healing stat = PvE MVP.

Edited by Arkham Creed, 02 December 2012 - 11:16 PM.

[Aetou]

Staff Elementalists can run a very solid Condition build (20 or so stacks of bleed, burning, weakness plus solid amounts of Chilled and Vulnerabilty too.)

To be honest I'd say that the only classes that should really run Condition builds are Necros, Eles and perhaps Mesmers (although there I feel crit builds are stronger.)

[Athletic]

Rangers, mesmers, engineers, necros, thieves all have viable condi builds in pvp. I assume it's not that much different in pve

[Qethsegol]

Okay, now which class can get a movement boost? Because I'm looking at Mesmer, and they're not so quick.

[xLOKIx0830]

I'd say the best condition professions are as follows:

1. Sceptor Necromancer - Bleeds, Poison, and inherent survivability

2. Fire and earth attunment, sceptor or dagger Elementalist - Bleeds, Burning, and Versatility

3. Pistol Engineer - Bleeds, Poison, Burning, and AoE (Bombs and grenades)

4. Pistol/dagger venom Thieves - Bleeds, Poison, Mobility, and lots of Stealth

5. Staff Mesmer - Bleeds, Burning, and lots of clones that multiply the number of conditions dealt.

6. Sword/sword and Rifle Warrior - Lots and lots of bleeds

7. Shortbow Ranger - Poison and Lots of bleeds, but requires hitting enemy on side or back.

8. Guardian - Burning.

Now, If you're looking for movement enhancement, your best bets are Elementalist, Thief, and Engineer.

[Arkham Creed]

Qethsegol, on 02 December 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

Okay, now which class can get a movement boost? Because I'm looking at Mesmer, and they're not so quick.

The engineer can use the utility skill Elixir B that grants might (increased direct and condition damage), fury (+20% crit chance), swiftness (+33% movement speed), and retaliation (damages melee attackers when struck). It is a core part of my build and is traited for faster recharge and condition removal, as well as auto-cast when I drop below 75% health (stacks with the manual cast). Can also be thrown as an AOE to share the love.

...Yes; I love the engineer. We're awesome.

[Red Omen]

xLOKIx0830, on 03 December 2012 - 12:16 AM, said:

8. Guardian - Burning.

I strongly recommend against focusing on condition damage as a guardian. Burning is the only condition to speak of (besides the occasional Blind or Vulnerability), and it stacks in duration rather than intensity. While maintaining burning can be a means to an end - you get a nice reliable damage boost with Fiery Wrath, Radiant Power, and six Superior Flame Legion runes - your damage comes from striking an enemy while he's burning, not from the mild pressure provided by the condition itself.

Long story short, there's a reason it's so far down on Loki's list.

[Aetou]

xLOKIx0830, on 03 December 2012 - 12:16 AM, said:

2. Fire and earth attunment, sceptor or dagger Elementalist - Bleeds, Burning, and Versatility

No idea why you're listing those weapons but not Staff - which due to its huge AOE for Eruption can apply far more bleeds to even just a pair of mobs than either of the alternatives (and will beat Scepter for single target too.)  It also has better access to other key conditions, such as Weakness, than the other weapons.  If you go all out for condition damage it is putting 6 stacks of 24s bleeds onto the entire group of enemy mobs every 7s (meaning you can almost hit the bleed cap by yourself on an entire group.)  That should translate into more than 15k damage on everything from each of those attacks which is, frankly, quite insane.

[Loperdos]

If you want variety of conditions, definitely focus on either Necro, Ele, Mesmer or Engi.

If you want to be able to absolutely excel at one condition with a small bit of another thrown in for funzies, go a bleed build thief, preferably one that uses D/D for Death Blossom (#3 on your bar/dual attack) because it has an extremely long bleed on it which makes it easy to stack up to 25 and sustain without too much trouble.

[xLOKIx0830]

Aetou, on 03 December 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

No idea why you're listing those weapons but not Staff - which due to its huge AOE for Eruption can apply far more bleeds to even just a pair of mobs than either of the alternatives (and will beat Scepter for single target too.)  It also has better access to other key conditions, such as Weakness, than the other weapons.  If you go all out for condition damage it is putting 6 stacks of 24s bleeds onto the entire group of enemy mobs every 7s (meaning you can almost hit the bleed cap by yourself on an entire group.)  That should translate into more than 15k damage on everything from each of those attacks which is, frankly, quite insane.

I don't list staff because Eruption is an unreliable way of inflicting bleed. It's powerful because it's hard to hit. If you're just doing PvE, it's fine, but in any other mode, WvwvW or PvP, you'll never hit the opponent with it unless you immobilize them. And even then, they can just remove it, and you have to wait 6 more seconds to be able to use it again, and oh wait, you won't be able to land it. Same deal with fire attunment, it has only 1 skills that inflicts burning. It's aoe, it's fast, but it's 10 seconds of cooldown, and that isn't acceptable in a condition damage build.

The reason sceptor/dagger and dagger/dagger are listed is because they can both inflict bleeds and burning quickly, and reliably. The sceptor inflicts burning every auto attack, and 3 bleeds every earth auto attack. You'll stack bleeds fast, and no matter if your opponent removes them, you can just put them on in no time, and with no consequences if you miss an attack.

While sceptor is better for bleeds, dagger is better for burning. 3/5 fire skills on dagger/dagger inflict burning, are easy to hit, and all synergize well with fire grab, which will do good damage even on a condition build. Mainhand dagger's auto attack also does bleed every hit, and so does the number 2 skill. Offhand dagger is also amazing, since Churning earth is much more powerful than eruption, and easier to land (thanks to lightning flash). It does more bleeds that last longer, it has a larger aoe radius, and it does a considerable amount of raw damage.

Eruption just can't compare to the other options Elementalists have.

[Aetou]

The question is in the PvE section so I'd assume that it is being asked about PVE situations where Eruption builds really shine.

However, even i  WvW I have no trouble at all landing Eruption.  Even in very small scale situations I land it very reliably (assuming Blasting Staff) and in 1 on 1s... most of the time you can train even players to run over it in their hunger to hit you in the face.  In sPvP I wouldn't run it, but in WvW and PvE it is very reliable and effective. Scepter autoattack is 3 medium duration bleeds every 1.5s - that slow attack speed is a big negative (means you'll get a third less total self healing if running SoR which an Ele Earth build probably always should.)  Dagger autoattack gives you 2 stacks of bleed in the same time, making it even worse at actually doing damage.  Really, the only time that you'll be stacking more bleeds with either D/D or S/D is in 1 on 1 PvP situations.  Yes, in PvP your first stacks of Eruption will probably draw out cleanses but as you should also have Burning, Weakness, Chilled and quite possibly Immobilized, Blind or Vulnerability stacked on the target too there is certainly no guarantee that they'll be stripping it with their cleanse.  But as I said, sPvP isn't really under discussion here.

100% single target uptime on Burning is also so trivial to get that I don't see being 'better' at it as an advantage, its pure overkill and wasted damage to focus on that.  Especially if we're talking PVE group situations, any condition build that is based on Burning is a seriously bad idea.  Anyway, I've run Condition builds with Staff, S/D, D/D and in both PVE and WvW an Eruption build does so much more damage that I'm just not quite sure what else to say.  Churning Earth is the only really solid source of bleed damage in the other weapon sets and 1 well timed interrupt completely neuters it - and even NPCs frequently manage to do that due to its long, long channel time.

TLDR: If you can't land Eruption reliably in PVE talk to your group and get them to kite with less panic and more control, assuming the group is competent then Staff can comfortably keep everything burning and covered in bleeds, while the main target is also Weakened (a huge asset to the group) - and it is also more than capable of applying a lot of heals in an emergency.

[coglin]

xLOKIx0830, on 03 December 2012 - 12:16 AM, said:

3. Pistol Engineer - Bleeds, Poison, Burning, and AoE (Bombs and grenades)

You forgot the 3 skills that stack 2, 4, and 5 stacks of confusion respectively.

[Thaddeuz]

A lot of classe are good for speed movement.

Elementalist : 1 trait give you 25% speed after 50 second in Air Attunements and its last as long as you are not in fight and in air attunement. Three other trait give you switfness when you attuning to air, use a glygh or put a aura. The staff and dagger(off hand).

Engineer : I use this rotation. Elixir B (swiftness), Toss Elixir B (random switfness), Elixir H (random swiftness), Tool belt of Slick Shoe (double speed for 2 sec).  There is also (but i dont use them) one attack of the Elixir gun that give you swifness and a trait that give you swifness when you are equipping a kit. I never tried this one, but i believe if you have two kit in you utilities skill and keep changing between the two you coulb possibly have a constant swiftness.

Thief : pretty much simple. Use the shadow signet for 25% speed when not in combat.

Rangers : Call of the hunt (Warhorn) give you 15s of swiftness (19,5 if you put pts in the nature magic trait line). Add the trait giving you swiftness on weapons swap and you near a constant swifness boons.

Guardian : With symbol of Swiftness (Staff), Retreat (utility) and Save yourselves (utility) you gain a total of 38s swifness. With good trait distribution you can also reach near constant swifness.

Warrior : With charge (warhorn), Inspire (Banners) and Signet of Rage (Elite) you got a lot of swiftness.

Necromancer : You got 30s swiftness with spectral walk (utility) and 10s with Locus Swarn (Warhorn).

I dont really know the messmer yet (I don't play it and none of my guildmates neither), but i don't think it can have as much speed as the others professions. For the 7 others(except the theif), you can reach near constant or even constant swiftness with a good trait distribution. You need pts the trait line that increase boons duration for the 30% duration bonus for the swiftness you apply on yourselves. You also need trait that give you 20% less cooldown on the type of skill that give you swiftness. Its sure that this distribution of trait may not be the best for the gameplay you want for your profession but at this point its about what you prefer. Speed during the leveling and latter change your build to focus on your character performance?

[Dahk]

xLOKIx0830, on 03 December 2012 - 12:16 AM, said:

I'd say the best condition professions are as follows:

1. Sceptor Necromancer - Bleeds, Poison, and inherent survivability

2. Fire and earth attunment, sceptor or dagger Elementalist - Bleeds, Burning, and Versatility

3. Pistol Engineer - Bleeds, Poison, Burning, and AoE (Bombs and grenades)

4. Pistol/dagger venom Thieves - Bleeds, Poison, Mobility, and lots of Stealth

5. Staff Mesmer - Bleeds, Burning, and lots of clones that multiply the number of conditions dealt.

6. Sword/sword and Rifle Warrior - Lots and lots of bleeds

7. Shortbow Ranger - Poison and Lots of bleeds, but requires hitting enemy on side or back.

8. Guardian - Burning.

Now, If you're looking for movement enhancement, your best bets are Elementalist, Thief, and Engineer.

A trap ranger will bring burning, poison, tons of bleeds, cripple, stun, and that's before you even consider the other conditions you can bring depending on what pet you have.  Example: http://gw2skills.net...YkwsGYEwJg9BvAA

[Qethsegol]

Okay, I want a condition build that has decent survival. I've been looking at Necro and they seem to have exactly what I want. But now i need to think of a name, lol...

[coglin]

Qethsegol, on 05 December 2012 - 01:01 AM, said:

Okay, I want a condition build that has decent survival. I've been looking at Necro and they seem to have exactly what I want. But now i need to think of a name, lol...

Pistol/Shield engineer. Ranges with a shield, hard to get much more survival then that.

[coglin]

coglin, on 05 December 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

Pistol/Shield engineer. Ranges with a shield, hard to get much more survival then that.

Thaddeuz, on 04 December 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

Engineer : I use this rotation. Elixir B (swiftness), Toss Elixir B (random switfness), Elixir H (random swiftness), Tool belt of Slick Shoe (double speed for 2 sec).  There is also (but i dont use them) one attack of the Elixir gun that give you swifness and a trait that give you swifness when you are equipping a kit. I never tried this one, but i believe if you have two kit in you utilities skill and keep changing between the two you coulb possibly have a constant swiftness.

Although this indeed works, it is the least efficient of the methods to do it in my opinion. "Speedy kits" is the most efficient solo 100% perma-swiftness  if you ask me. As well, Runes of the centaur set gives 100% swiftness up time as an AoE

[Qethsegol]

Okay folks. I tried out Necro, Ele, Mesmer, and Engy. I like Necro and Engy the best. Now, based on my playstyle, what should I play?

1) Variety of easily applied DoT conditions
2) Tanky (I generally do everything solo, so I need to survive and have a meatshield or nice heals or good escapes)
3) Welcomed in endgame stuff
4) Damage
5) Easily obtained and applied movement speed buff

Again, only really looking at Necro or Engy.

[MCBiohazard]

Qethsegol, on 05 December 2012 - 08:54 AM, said:

Okay folks. I tried out Necro, Ele, Mesmer, and Engy. I like Necro and Engy the best. Now, based on my playstyle, what should I play?

1) Variety of easily applied DoT conditions
2) Tanky (I generally do everything solo, so I need to survive and have a meatshield or nice heals or good escapes)
3) Welcomed in endgame stuff
4) Damage
5) Easily obtained and applied movement speed buff

Again, only really looking at Necro or Engy.

Based on your criteria, I would probably say Engineer due to the fact that they can maintain permanent swiftness with 10 points in Tools line for Speedy Kits trait. They can get fairly tanky due to being a medium armor class, though Necro can also get very tanky due to Death Shroud. Condition-wise, they can apply just about any type but especially burning and vulnerability with the right kits and traits.

[Thaddeuz]

coglin, on 05 December 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

Although this indeed works, it is the least efficient of the methods to do it in my opinion. "Speedy kits" is the most efficient solo 100% perma-swiftness  if you ask me. As well, Runes of the centaur set gives 100% swiftness up time as an AoE

You'r right. Speedy Kits seem to be by far the most efficient way. But my engineer is Level 80 and i'm love my current build which don't have any pts into Tool Trait line. I'm using this rotation because its the best way to give myself speed without changing anything in it. For more speed i could replace slick shoes for the elixir gun and spam Elixir F each 8 second but since my World Completion is finish with this character i don't really need much more swiftness.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Necro stacks on a lot of conditions but most of them aren't that useful.  If you're looking at "condition spamming" you want to look at the strength of the condition stacked versus just how many icons you can make appear on the screen.  Vulnerability is basically useless unless you can keep large stacks up for a long period of time, and bleed is basically just damage, so you need to look at how much you're actually bleeding.  Poison is super easy to keep up permanently so it tends to be superfluous, and weakness only matters if it's being applied constantly.

As suich, I'd say that engineer and elementalist are actually the best condition-based classes simply due to the strength of their bleeds.

[coglin]

Thaddeuz, on 06 December 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

You'r right. Speedy Kits seem to be by far the most efficient way. But my engineer is Level 80 and i'm love my current build which don't have any pts into Tool Trait line. I'm using this rotation because its the best way to give myself speed without changing anything in it. For more speed i could replace slick shoes for the elixir gun and spam Elixir F each 8 second but since my World Completion is finish with this character i don't really need much more swiftness.

Well if your build does not include points for it, then it certainly isn't the most efficient for your build. You definitely posted a working and practical system that works well for folks who do not have the other options available.

[SpelignErrir]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 06 December 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

Necro stacks on a lot of conditions but most of them aren't that useful.  If you're looking at "condition spamming" you want to look at the strength of the condition stacked versus just how many icons you can make appear on the screen.  Vulnerability is basically useless unless you can keep large stacks up for a long period of time, and bleed is basically just damage, so you need to look at how much you're actually bleeding.  Poison is super easy to keep up permanently so it tends to be superfluous, and weakness only matters if it's being applied constantly.

As suich, I'd say that engineer and elementalist are actually the best condition-based classes simply due to the strength of their bleeds.

Don't all bleeds do the same damage given the same condition damage multiplier?

Pistol Engineer has a variety of awesome conditions, but the bleeds it provides are terrible. It exchanges the raw power dealt with conditions for a variety of conditions - burning, poison, confusion. Its bleed only lasts for about 2 seconds, and there are no traits that improve bleeds noticeably. Now compare it to another class - Warrior Sword's auto attack deals 8s of bleeding and the rifle's bleeding shot deals 6s of bleeding. Warrior also has much better traits for bleeding: 50% extra bleeding duration, 10% extra damage to bleeding foes...50% bleeding duration is a freaking ADEPT trait and the 10% damage is a minor trait.

Engineer is an amazing condition class...but it's not because of the bleeds.

Also...if you're playing a conditionmancer, you probably aren't using an axe. Necromancer condition builds are pure bleeding power, if you're going to say that a condition based class is best "due to the strength of their bleeds", you're looking at a scepter/dagger necromancer.

With 30 points in curses, if you pick up hemophilia and lingering curse, then you have 53% bleeding duration and 66% chance to proc a bleed on a crit. Your scepter auto attack deals 4 or 5 seconds (wiki says 5) of damage, so you're getting 6-8 seconds of bleeding depending on if you have any bleed duration runes...and that's just on the auto attacks. Grasping dead is a base 7 second bleed with less than a second of cast time, which comes out to be around 12 seconds. If you're using a dagger offhand, Enfeebling blood deals 2 stacks of bleeding that last 10 seconds, which come out to be around 12 seconds because they don't get the bonus to condition duration from the grandmaster scepter trait.

For elementalists, at the start of a fight, it takes 3 seconds to get six stacks of bleeds that last 13 seconds if traited. Eruption is on a 4.8 second cd, so when the eruption lands, there will be 1.8 seconds left on cd, and 11 seconds of bleed still on the opponent. Cast eruption again, takes 3 seconds to hit, 8 seconds of 6 stacks of bleed + 13 seconds of 6 stacks of bleed, 4.8 seconds later, eruption is ready to be cast again, on 3 seconds of 6 stacks and 8 seconds of 6 stacks. When the eruption hits, the initial bleed from the first eruption will expire, meaning the elementalist can maintain 12 stacks of bleeds on a target, and that it takes:

3 seconds for half max potential bleed
4.8 seconds for second eruption to be cast
7.8 seconds for the second eruption to hit

So it takes 7.8 seconds for an elementalist to reach its max bleed potential.

Necromancers start a fight, get 2 stacks bleed with 12 seconds instantly using enfeebling blood, grasping dead for 1 stack of 11 seconds, cast time of ~1 second means the first two stacks are about the same duration as the third so I'll combine those for convenience. About 2 seconds into the fight and 11 seconds of 3 stacks of bleeds. Blood curse and rending curse, 2x 7 seconds of bleed for 1 second. 10 seconds of 3 stacks + 1 stack of 7 and one of 6.5.

I'm too lazy to finish this, but it seems that ele is better than a necro after all :L I guess you were right about necro being a noob at conditions

But engineer bleeds are still very weak.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

SpelignErrir, on 08 December 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

Don't all bleeds do the same damage given the same condition damage multiplier?

Pistol Engineer has a variety of awesome conditions, but the bleeds it provides are terrible. It exchanges the raw power dealt with conditions for a variety of conditions - burning, poison, confusion. Its bleed only lasts for about 2 seconds, and there are no traits that improve bleeds noticeably. Now compare it to another class - Warrior Sword's auto attack deals 8s of bleeding and the rifle's bleeding shot deals 6s of bleeding. Warrior also has much better traits for bleeding: 50% extra bleeding duration, 10% extra damage to bleeding foes...50% bleeding duration is a freaking ADEPT trait and the 10% damage is a minor trait.

Engineer is an amazing condition class...but it's not because of the bleeds.

Also...if you're playing a conditionmancer, you probably aren't using an axe. Necromancer condition builds are pure bleeding power, if you're going to say that a condition based class is best "due to the strength of their bleeds", you're looking at a scepter/dagger necromancer.

With 30 points in curses, if you pick up hemophilia and lingering curse, then you have 53% bleeding duration and 66% chance to proc a bleed on a crit. Your scepter auto attack deals 4 or 5 seconds (wiki says 5) of damage, so you're getting 6-8 seconds of bleeding depending on if you have any bleed duration runes...and that's just on the auto attacks. Grasping dead is a base 7 second bleed with less than a second of cast time, which comes out to be around 12 seconds. If you're using a dagger offhand, Enfeebling blood deals 2 stacks of bleeding that last 10 seconds, which come out to be around 12 seconds because they don't get the bonus to condition duration from the grandmaster scepter trait.

For elementalists, at the start of a fight, it takes 3 seconds to get six stacks of bleeds that last 13 seconds if traited. Eruption is on a 4.8 second cd, so when the eruption lands, there will be 1.8 seconds left on cd, and 11 seconds of bleed still on the opponent. Cast eruption again, takes 3 seconds to hit, 8 seconds of 6 stacks of bleed + 13 seconds of 6 stacks of bleed, 4.8 seconds later, eruption is ready to be cast again, on 3 seconds of 6 stacks and 8 seconds of 6 stacks. When the eruption hits, the initial bleed from the first eruption will expire, meaning the elementalist can maintain 12 stacks of bleeds on a target, and that it takes:

3 seconds for half max potential bleed
4.8 seconds for second eruption to be cast
7.8 seconds for the second eruption to hit

So it takes 7.8 seconds for an elementalist to reach its max bleed potential.

Necromancers start a fight, get 2 stacks bleed with 12 seconds instantly using enfeebling blood, grasping dead for 1 stack of 11 seconds, cast time of ~1 second means the first two stacks are about the same duration as the third so I'll combine those for convenience. About 2 seconds into the fight and 11 seconds of 3 stacks of bleeds. Blood curse and rending curse, 2x 7 seconds of bleed for 1 second. 10 seconds of 3 stacks + 1 stack of 7 and one of 6.5.

I'm too lazy to finish this, but it seems that ele is better than a necro after all :L I guess you were right about necro being a noob at conditions

But engineer bleeds are still very weak.

You just said it yourself.  Your numbers for necromancer bleeds simply aren't that impressive.  Let's take a look:

Assuming +90% bleed duration (+30% from prowess, +20% from hemophila, +40% from runes) plus another 33% for scepter skills:
Scepter Auto = 1x11, 1x8 per 3s = 6.33 ticks/sec
Grasping Dead = 1x15 per 11s = 1.36 ticks/sec
Enfeebling Blood = 2x19 per 22s = 1.73 ticks/sec

Then assuming 300 precision from traits and Rabid gear, you'll have 55% crit rate.  Assuming 1 attack per second:
Barbed Precision = 36% chance to bleed for 1s = .36 ticks/sec
2x Sigil of Earth = .462 chance to bleed for 9s = 4.4 ticks/sec

Total = 14.18 ticks/sec

Compared to the engineer, just spamming grenades (so not even accounting for rifle or pistol bleeds).  You throw one grenade volley per second, so 3/sec with Grenadier trait.  You can get +70% bleed duration and 60% crit chance with 20 in Firearms, plus Scope, so:
Shrapnel Grenade = 3x20 per 5s = 12 ticks/sec
Shrapnel (trait) = 6% chance to bleed for 20s per grenade, 3x = 3.6 ticks/sec
Sharpshooter = 19.8% chance to bleed for 3s, 3x = 2 ticks/sec

Total = 17.6 ticks/sec

According to that just Shrapnel Grenade alone is as much bleed as everything else Necromancer can put out.  To be fair I don't know necromancer that well so maybe there's more than can be done to optimize bleeds further?  The engineer number is low too, you can take rifle for Blunderbuss (4 stacks for 6s = 24 ticks per 9s = 2.67 ticks/sec) and Grenade Barrage (8 grenades = 14 ticks from Shrapnel and Sharpshooter per 25s = .56 ticks/sec), so their number is closer to 20 ticks/sec if you go into melee range.

Elementalists on the other hand pretty much beats everything with Eruption (6 stacks for 22s per 7s = 18.8 ticks/sec) alone.  Which is funny.

[SpelignErrir]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 08 December 2012 - 02:27 AM, said:

You just said it yourself.  Your numbers for necromancer bleeds simply aren't that impressive.  Let's take a look:

Assuming +90% bleed duration (+30% from prowess, +20% from hemophila, +40% from runes) plus another 33% for scepter skills:
Scepter Auto = 1x11, 1x8 per 3s = 6.33 ticks/sec
Grasping Dead = 1x15 per 11s = 1.36 ticks/sec
Enfeebling Blood = 2x19 per 22s = 1.73 ticks/sec

Then assuming 300 precision from traits and Rabid gear, you'll have 55% crit rate.  Assuming 1 attack per second:
Barbed Precision = 36% chance to bleed for 1s = .36 ticks/sec
2x Sigil of Earth = .462 chance to bleed for 9s = 4.4 ticks/sec

Total = 14.18 ticks/sec

Compared to the engineer, just spamming grenades (so not even accounting for rifle or pistol bleeds).  You throw one grenade volley per second, so 3/sec with Grenadier trait.  You can get +70% bleed duration and 60% crit chance with 20 in Firearms, plus Scope, so:
Shrapnel Grenade = 3x20 per 5s = 12 ticks/sec
Shrapnel (trait) = 6% chance to bleed for 20s per grenade, 3x = 3.6 ticks/sec
Sharpshooter = 19.8% chance to bleed for 3s, 3x = 2 ticks/sec

Total = 17.6 ticks/sec

According to that just Shrapnel Grenade alone is as much bleed as everything else Necromancer can put out.  To be fair I don't know necromancer that well so maybe there's more than can be done to optimize bleeds further?  The engineer number is low too, you can take rifle for Blunderbuss (4 stacks for 6s = 24 ticks per 9s = 2.67 ticks/sec) and Grenade Barrage (8 grenades = 14 ticks from Shrapnel and Sharpshooter per 25s = .56 ticks/sec), so their number is closer to 20 ticks/sec if you go into melee range.

Elementalists on the other hand pretty much beats everything with Eruption (6 stacks for 22s per 7s = 18.8 ticks/sec) alone.  Which is funny.

Wait, 22s? Wasn't it 12?

Also, eles can only maintain 12 stacks of bleeding, in a drawn out fight warriors can stack more bleeds with sword/rifle (Though ele is still undisputed aoe condition champ)

[blindude]

SpelignErrir, on 08 December 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

For elementalists, at the start of a fight, it takes 3 seconds to get six stacks of bleeds that last 13 seconds if traited. Eruption is on a 4.8 second cd, so when the eruption lands, there will be 1.8 seconds left on cd, and 11 seconds of bleed still on the opponent. Cast eruption again, takes 3 seconds to hit, 8 seconds of 6 stacks of bleed + 13 seconds of 6 stacks of bleed, 4.8 seconds later, eruption is ready to be cast again, on 3 seconds of 6 stacks and 8 seconds of 6 stacks. When the eruption hits, the initial bleed from the first eruption will expire, meaning the elementalist can maintain 12 stacks of bleeds on a target, and that it takes:

You assume that the cd of eruption starts to count immediately after you activate the skill which is wrong cause it has also 1 2/4 casting time before so you give the skill more credit that it has :0
Then you say the bleeds last traited only 13 sec which is wron cause the base bleeding is 12 sec so with 100% or something bleed duration is 24  
In short it is possible to almost reach the bleed cap alone if you really want to use that skill
edit:no you cant (if cond duration is capped at 100% as i have heard ) but you could reach it by getting bleeds from another sources like sigils and shockwave and evasive arcanas in earth.

Edited by blindude, 08 December 2012 - 02:53 AM.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

SpelignErrir, on 08 December 2012 - 02:32 AM, said:

Wait, 22s? Wasn't it 12?

Also, eles can only maintain 12 stacks of bleeding, in a drawn out fight warriors can stack more bleeds with sword/rifle (Though ele is still undisputed aoe condition champ)

Traits.  +40% from gear, +30% from prowess, +20% from that one other trait.

blindude, on 08 December 2012 - 02:38 AM, said:

You assume that the cd of eruption starts to count immediately after you activate the skill which is wrong cause it has also 1 2/4 casting time before so you give the skill more credit that it has :0
Then you say the bleeds last traited only 13 sec which is wron cause the base bleeding is 12 sec so with 100% or something bleed duration is 24  
In short it is possible to almost reach the bleed cap alone if you really want to use that skill
edit:no you cant (if cond duration is capped at 100% as i have heard ) but you could reach it by getting bleeds from another sources like sigils and shockwave and evasive arcanas in earth.

You actually don't even need to channel the Eruption, you can just press it then immediately cancel it.  It'll go on CD immediately and you can do other stuff in the meanwhile.

[blindude]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 08 December 2012 - 03:06 AM, said:

You actually don't even need to channel the Eruption, you can just press it then immediately cancel it.  It'll go on CD immediately and you can do other stuff in the meanwhile.

That was the case till the end of bwe3 but not now.Now it will not explode if you cancel
They actually managed to completely mess up those skills during the stresstests after that beta in an attempt to fix this bug/exploit...