42 replies to this topic

[PracticalShutIn]

RNG, I understand = Random Number Generation
Which means the game will pick a random number from 1-10 and the loot that drops will depend on which number you got.  For example, getting anything from 1-7 is junk, 8-9 is masterwork, 10 is a rare.


I haven't played a lot of MMOs, but people who have keep talking about how bad RNG is.  What do other games use that people prefer to this?

[Asudementio]

The most used RNG alternative i can think of is token based or alternative currency based purchasing. That is to say when you do something you get tokens which can be redeemed for items you choose. This system exists in GW2 in the form of glory, karma, and dungeon tokens.

[TGIFrisbie]

Asudementio, on 03 December 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

The most used RNG alternative i can think of is token based or alternative currency based purchasing. That is to say when you do something you get tokens which can be redeemed for items you choose. This system exists in GW2 in the form of glory, karma, and dungeon tokens.

One of the best systems utilizing this was in DDO, in my opinion.  You ran raids, hoped for drops, hoped no one else would need the item you wanted if it dropped.  However you gained something like points for each successful run and after so many you could redeem them with a Vendor that offered many of the items that could potentially drop.

A very good experience, from a gamer's poitn of view.  Win:Win.

[Virdiana Sovari]

Well, an example is Guild Wars 2 dungeon reward system (except FoTM which is RNG).
For every explorable dungeon's path completed (once per day per path) you get 60 tokens.
You spend tokens at vendors to buy gear.
That means if you want whole armor set (let's assume it's 1200 tokens), you need to run dungeon 20 times. You know how much will it take, and when will you have your gear. With RNG some players get full armor set after 3 runs, and some need to do it for 100's of times.

[Red_Falcon]

Token-based system removes all the "hope for luck" feeling that looting gives you and makes the whole feel like a chore, while only RNG leads to obvious flaws.
Having both is great tho; you can be lucky and get what you want, or be unlucky but still feel you accomplished something as you get tokens for items.
It's what the current system we have is basically, and I like it this way.

The loot system is fine, what is not fine is crafting.
I like crafting in general but hate it in GW2 as the options are:
1. pure RNG-based item obtainment (luck-to-mats)
2. buy mats with gold (gold-to-mats)
I'd rather have an "effort-to-mats" system too, like, you obtain a number of account-bound versions of the mats you need by doing a dedicated quest or mission of some sort.
Crafting quests are needed to get crafting away from RNG boredom and gold sinkdom.

Edited by Red_Falcon, 03 December 2012 - 04:24 PM.

[Asudementio]

TGIFrisbie, on 03 December 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

One of the best systems utilizing this was in DDO, in my opinion.  You ran raids, hoped for drops, hoped no one else would need the item you wanted if it dropped.  However you gained something like points for each successful run and after so many you could redeem them with a Vendor that offered many of the items that could potentially drop.

A very good experience, from a gamer's poitn of view.  Win:Win.

Well this exists already in GW2 to a degree, but i agree this is a good system.

Red_Falcon, on 03 December 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

Token-based system removes all the "hope for luck" feeling that looting gives you and makes the whole feel like a chore, while only RNG leads to obvious flaws.
Having both is great tho; you can be lucky and get what you want, or be unlucky but still feel you accomplished something as you get tokens for items.
It's what the current system we have is basically, and I like it this way.

The loot system is fine, what is not fine is crafting.
I like crafting in general but hate it in GW2 as the options are:
1. pure RNG-based item obtainment (luck-to-mats)
2. buy mats with gold (gold-to-mats)
I'd rather have an "effort-to-mats" system too, like, you obtain a number of account-bound versions of the mats you need by doing a dedicated quest or mission of some sort.
Crafting quests are needed to get crafting away from RNG boredom and gold sinkdom.

If every

I would like a crafting daily added in that would translate to effort to mats, but only is crafting is given recipes that make special gear sets that are of noticeable and enviable quality.

[PracticalShutIn]

I see I see.

There are things that both tokens and RNG are better at.

I have put 16 sets of 4 items in the forge in a row and gotten no upgrades.  It was unbelievable.  I thought it was 1 in 5.  It would be nice if there was a cap on the RNG where the more you failed it, the higher your chances were to succeed on the next attempt.

In terms of crafting:  I played a game once where you craft an armor and you have a chance of getting NOTHING.  Which was terrible.  But when you didn't fail, you'd get an item with random rarity and stats on it, and I kind of liked that.  You could get lucky.   And another game that had a minigame when crafting, where you couldn't just make a stack of 10 helms with the click of a button, you had to pay attention.  It was kind of good, but you could also fail despite trying hard, and lose mats.  I'm the type to spend too much time making something perfect, so a way to craft superior items with a little extra care would be right up my alley.

For stuff like precursors, RNG seems pretty punishing.  Hard work pays off but only for some.

[Zhahz]

I'm not a big fan of RNG and loot tables for bosses, it ends up feeling like shopping where people are like "I need to do X because my Y from Z hasn't dropped yet" - I don't like that.  I also don't like how loot tables and RNG mean you may never get gear you can use or that you want.

But, a purely token based system like we have in GW2 ends up being very bland and boring, because when you never get rewards worth using from the chests and bosses you fight in dungeons, it makes dungeons feel a bit blah.

So IMO it's a tough spot for devs.  Make a fair system that's purely merit based and it becomes kind of bland.  Too much RNG leads to miserable boss farming and/or some people getting really lucky (I got my sword of one shot pwnage first time I killed X) and some people not (I've killed X 100 times and Z just never drops for me).

The system I liked the best was LDON's system in EQLive - for loot and dungeons.

The dungeons were set to be completed in 30 mins for full reward, had random mobs/content (like old diablo dungeons/zones), scaled with level, had variable difficulty you selected, and you had a mission to do (like kill a boss, rescue an npc, kill X trash, collect X - simple stuff but it often gave meaning to trash and gave you the reason to get done fast).  Anyways - it was an amazing dungeon system, especially the pseudo random maps and content.

The loot system was point based with a twist.  There were several flavors of instance, kind of like how GW2 has seperate vendors for each instance.  You earned points for completions.  As you earned points in a theme, you would unlock loot you could "buy" with those points, but, you could use points from ANY theme to buy whatever loot you wanted as long as you had it unlocked, which is worlds better than a system like GW2 uses where tokens you earn only work for the theme you earned them from.

In LDON, there would be bosses or random named mobs in instance - in GW2 speak they'd be something like extra instance bosses or champs - something a bit tougher.  Those mobs would drop decent random loot too, not make or break stuff that would lead to the need to farm them, but the pieces MIGHT be something useful (instead of straight to vendor/tp/ecto).

The dungeon loot system in GW2 is something that I thought sounded great originally but ends up being boring to me.  I was so sick of RNG and loot tables in other games.  But, it's nice to do a dungeon and get gear from bosses that you can actually use - it feels good.  That doesn't happen in GW2 because the drops are garbge most of the time and still not worth using when they're not garbage.  Grinding dungeons for tokens is too much like the lame part of grinding dungeons in other games for tier gear.

I'm not sure what the answer is.  I'm kind of tired of static dungeon content in general and don't like the idea of scripted bosses you see the same time every time you do a dungeon, with a small loot table that leads to boss shopping.  Pure token systems are borking.  Random dungeon content (mobs) and random loot that's worth using would be a nice twist.

[Alex Dimitri]

I watched video on youtube where guy dropped about 1.5k Greatswords in MF and he didn`t get anything....... !
Also i`ve heard stories that some "guy" got precursor on first 4-8 items.... !!
Most of the guys that have Legendary weapons used real cash to obtain at least some part (mats or precursor itself) !!!

I simply don`t see achievement there, just poorly implemented lottery system (and usual rich guy get`s it) !

You should get that fever "i might get it this time" when you enter Dungeon, that`s incentive to play it after all (at least for me in previous games). Vendor token exchange is also fair because you know what you want and you know how to get it.
Main problem i see in GW2 is that drops/rewards are just so POOR and random, i mean for all this time playing not once i got anything that i would put on my character !

[Zhahz]

PracticalShutIn, on 03 December 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

I have put 16 sets of 4 items in the forge in a row and gotten no upgrades.  It was unbelievable.  I thought it was 1 in 5.  It would be nice if there was a cap on the RNG where the more you failed it, the higher your chances were to succeed on the next attempt.

I really, really dislike the mystic forge.  It's something that involves no effort or skill.  It's all about luck or grinding.  Throw crap in and hope to win the MF lotto, or pile in megatons of junk for fixed recipes.  Either way it's lame.

For a game that's supposed to be all about skill, the mystic forge doesn't really fit.  It's more about being an item/money sink, IMO.  It should be called the mystic toilet - go flush your goodies.  Some people get lucky, but it's mostly a bottomless pit.

Alex Dimitri, on 03 December 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

Most of the guys that have Legendary weapons used real cash to obtain at least some part (mats or precursor itself) !!!

This is speculation but I kind of feel the same way.  Some stuff involved in legendaries requires miserable grind but some of it can definitely be cheesed thru buying stuff, and the quantities involved are either going to require someone to be amazing at grinding, luck, or more likely buying their way thru the game with cash.

[Jobuu]

crafting sucks bigtime. i gave up on it a while back. I got tired of walking through zones 10 times to gather wood to make a staff only for it to be way below the level I was at the time. Even if I dumped 4 of them into the forge (another piece of crap) I still got a crap weapon.

Also RNG for some things are so obviously wrong. Killing an elite mob in level 80 zones and getting nothing. Zero! not even a gray skull vendor trash item. WTF

[PracticalShutIn]

The third time this has happened.

salvaged 2 exotics (lv 80) with black lion kit --> no ectos.

3 times doing 2 in a row with 0 ectos.

For now on I'm going to do wait a half day or something if I get 0 because my paranoia tin foil cap is now on and I'm thinking there are salvaging dead times.

An average of 2.5 ectos lost = 5 ectos * 32s = 1g60 gone in a second

[Professor Chaos]

TGIFrisbie, on 03 December 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

One of the best systems utilizing this was in DDO, in my opinion.  You ran raids, hoped for drops, hoped no one else would need the item you wanted if it dropped.  However you gained something like points for each successful run and after so many you could redeem them with a Vendor that offered many of the items that could potentially drop.

A very good experience, from a gamer's poitn of view.  Win:Win.

Unless DDO has greatly changes from the 3 years I played, its not like this at all, and if ANet does nothing other then the opposite of everything that Turbine does, it will be a great game.  Thier most recent raid was pure random generated weapon which people hugely hated.  Before that the Shroud dropped mats for creating weapons, but in the end it was just RNG to get dragon scales, which was the limiting factor for every greensteel item.

[SirGamesalot]

RNG is the most retarded system someone can put into a game. This means that some people will get all the stuff they want in a couple of tries, while others (me) will get 22 daily chests (10+) without getting a single piece of crap. GW2 wasn't supposed to be like this, and I really wonder wth arenanet were smoking when they decided to do it.

[paradiselight]

There is actually an RNG system that falls between the current RNG system and the token-based system.

Currently, the RNG system has the same chance of awarding the desired item regardless of the number of previous attempts. An alternative RNG system is one where the chance increases as the number of attempt increases. In other words, a player is more and more likely to obtain the desired item on each subsequent attempt as the number of attempts increases.

The benefit of such a RNG system is that

• Progression - players have a sense of progression despite the failed attempts.
  
• Far less likely to have very long unlucky streaks. In fact, a max number of attempt threshold could be set such that the player will obtain the desired item after a certain number of attempts.
  
• To balance out the increased chances such that the average number of attempts remains the same, the chances for the initial attempts are much lower and so there are going to be far less lucky players, reducing the feeling of "why am I so unlucky" from other players.

Such RNG system exists in the crit mechanics of Warcraft 3 (and probably even earlier) and if anyone is interested in the nitty-gritty details, read this thread at dota forums.

[UNTYPABLExNAME]

An alternative is to make player killing and looting possible anywhere in the game.

Spoiler

limit to looting 1 item per kill

While the game monsters only randomly drop loot, killing the player with the desired item would guarantee the drop.

This could finally bring real prestige to players who are able to hold on to the items.
Truly honorable warriors would not loot at all, as the thrill of the battle is the goal.

[Senatic]

Jobuu, on 03 December 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

crafting sucks bigtime. i gave up on it a while back. I got tired of walking through zones 10 times to gather wood to make a staff only for it to be way below the level I was at the time. Even if I dumped 4 of them into the forge (another piece of crap) I still got a crap weapon.

lol, that was entirely your fault and nobody else's. You can always craft level appropriate things, hell you can craft level 80 items at level 10 if you so desire. Crafting disciplines also has nothing to do with RNG.

Edited by Senatic, 03 December 2012 - 06:18 PM.

[metalsazz]

Red_Falcon, on 03 December 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

Token-based system removes all the "hope for luck" feeling that looting gives you and makes the whole feel like a chore, while only RNG leads to obvious flaws.
Having both is great tho; you can be lucky and get what you want, or be unlucky but still feel you accomplished something as you get tokens for items.
It's what the current system we have is basically, and I like it this way.

The loot system is fine, what is not fine is crafting.
I like crafting in general but hate it in GW2 as the options are:
1. pure RNG-based item obtainment (luck-to-mats)
2. buy mats with gold (gold-to-mats)
I'd rather have an "effort-to-mats" system too, like, you obtain a number of account-bound versions of the mats you need by doing a dedicated quest or mission of some sort.
Crafting quests are needed to get crafting away from RNG boredom and gold sinkdom.

For all it's faults, the way Aion did it's craft leveling i thought was decent. Go to the crafting npc and grab a crafting quest, they give you event mats and you go buy other mats that you get from the vendor, and level up your crafting like that. You didn't gain any exp from the quest i think. and all you did is spend gold for the vendor mats, this really got rid of the need to actually try and fine these mats just to lvl with, and as long as a person had money, they could lvl up all they want.

Senatic, on 03 December 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

lol, that was entirely your fault and nobody else's. You can always craft level appropriate things, hell you can craft level 80 items at level 10 if you so desire. Crafting disciplines also has nothing to do with RNG.

My desire to craft depends on my how much money i have and mats i collected. Yeah common mats are easy to get, but the fine mats arn't, they solely depend on drops, loot bags, salvage or tp. There is no system out there right now to get these types of mats without rolling a dice or spending lots of money.

Edited by metalsazz, 03 December 2012 - 06:30 PM.

[Jobuu]

Senatic, on 03 December 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

lol, that was entirely your fault and nobody else's. You can always craft level appropriate things, hell you can craft level 80 items at level 10 if you so desire. Crafting disciplines also has nothing to do with RNG.

first of all, it DOES have to do with the random number generator. What you gain from salvaging items = those kits + RNG. Also you cannot craft level 80 items at level 10 unless this is an alt. Where are you getting the mats and gold from? I mined and chopped everything I saw and even spend a few hours just mining and chopping (running from NPCs - no combat). Maybe you didn't pick artiface but it sucks. They require something like 8 boards for a staff shaft and 3 or something for head (im at work now so can't confirm). But then it's like 3 logs for one board. So assuming I'm right, that's about 11 trees chopped for 1 staff. That's a whole zone sweep for for 11 trees. Then you can do that 4 times for the different dowel things oh i forgot dowels use wood too so there's more.

Do i need type this all again for the scepter, focus, trident I want to make?

[Nembool]

The RNG system is broken.
Take, for example, a wolf. You kill it and what do you get?
Very little.
We should have a salvaging skill that improves what you can get out of the corpse.
So that wolf can drop a pelt, fangs, claws, blood, bones etc (all of varying quality based upon your salvaging skill modified by a small random factor that reflects the damage done by the kill).

Somehow I doubt Arenanet will implement it, given the current onus on the cash shop.

[matsif]

I much prefer a token system or a system where you have a known set of goals to complete to receive a reward.  It leads to a sense of accomplishment for the task instead of the "oh hey the code liked me today" feeling that RNG gives.  This is a large reason why I don't run around with MF stuff, I probably won't ever go for a legendary weapon in its current form, and I rarely play around in the genie's toilet.  I'd rather have a huge set of quests with a good mixture of boss fights, jumping puzzles, and gathering quests that I can do in an order (random or even gated to increase the time it takes) to receive an epic reward.  Sitting around praying for something to drop isn't fun to me, its much more of a chore than completing a set of goals for said reward.

RNG capitalizes on the same feeling that gambling gives someone at a casino, which isn't good imo.

[TGIFrisbie]

Professor Chaos, on 03 December 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

Unless DDO has greatly changes from the 3 years I played

I stopped playing 2 years ago, it was 100% like I mentioned.  Things changed when it went F2P.

[Alleji]

Everybody has their own opinion on this, but I don't consider RNG inherently bad. It's the degree to which it influences the game.

For example, salvaging items is okay. You're going to end up with roughly the same result once you salvage 100 rares. Sure, when you salvage one, you're frequently disappointed because you got no ectos, but that little act of salvaging also creates excitement that would not be in the game if ectos were guaranteed. Sometimes you're even pleasantly surprised when you get 3! And if you're not a gambler, there's always the option of selling the rare on the TP for roughly the price of 1 ecto.

Legendary precursors, on the other hand, are NOT okay. It's such a massive thing that when it drops for you, it will impact your entire game. It's not farmable, it's not obtainable by any other means (1/10000 chance in mystic forge is equally random), it cannot be gained by skill. Few people just get lucky. Making them drop at a high rate from a one-time lag-ridden event that many people couldn't participate in and others simply chose not to because of how boring and badly executed everything leading up to it was just piles an extra layer of bullshit on top.

Not to say that high, (but still random) chance = good and low chance = bad. Not quite. For example, I think all the various lodestones are ok to have because they can be farmed and eventually the rate at which they can be obtained will average out. For people not actively farming them, they're just a nice bonus.

+ Having an alternative guaranteed path to obtain something that's RNG-dependent fixes the problem in 9 out of 10 cases.

Edited by Alleji, 03 December 2012 - 08:58 PM.

[Desild]

RNG is a blemish, a taint, a corruption in gaming that benefits no other than our play time clock. I defeated RNG in my Pokémon games, and I will one day defeat it in Guild Wars 2, as I did in Guild Wars 1.

And the best solution is to Flanderize loot percentils, and allow a more equal distribution of important and inrequest loot. Such as:

Absolute chance of rare crafting loot (Shards, Cores, Lodestones) as appropriate per area and monster specie, across the game. Ideally, 33% chance of  obtaining said loot from specific mobs. That way we can mantain the need for 250 units of those items, and still be relatively free from the TIRANY of the trading post.

Key crafting materials for Karma, spread across the land, aswell as a proper item promotion system that doesn't involve that darn blasted Mystic Forge. Nor ridiculously expensive token items, as per those Elonian Wine Bottles.

Better rewards for dungeons. 1-2 Rare or Exotic item at the end chest, and removal/remake of the token system. Instead, include a chooseable reward at the end of the dungeon, as according to the path you are taking. Example, chest/helm/weapon at the end of path one, pants/boots on path 2, etc. Have us run multiple paths of a dungeon to adquire a full set, as opposed to multiple runs of the same for a whole week.

Removal of the damn retrait/map travel/repair fees.

This, would, in theory, remove most of the RNG and my pet peeves from this game.

[The_Tree_Branch]

Desild, on 03 December 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

RNG is a blemish, a taint, a corruption in gaming that benefits no other than our play time clock. I defeated RNG in my Pokémon games, and I will one day defeat it in Guild Wars 2, as I did in Guild Wars 1.

And the best solution is to Flanderize loot percentils, and allow a more equal distribution of important and inrequest loot. Such as:

Absolute chance of rare crafting loot (Shards, Cores, Lodestones) as appropriate per area and monster specie, across the game. Ideally, 33% chance of  obtaining said loot from specific mobs. That way we can mantain the need for 250 units of those items, and still be relatively free from the TIRANY of the trading post.

Key crafting materials for Karma, spread across the land, aswell as a proper item promotion system that doesn't involve that darn blasted Mystic Forge. Nor ridiculously expensive token items, as per those Elonian Wine Bottles.

Better rewards for dungeons. 1-2 Rare or Exotic item at the end chest, and removal/remake of the token system. Instead, include a chooseable reward at the end of the dungeon, as according to the path you are taking. Example, chest/helm/weapon at the end of path one, pants/boots on path 2, etc. Have us run multiple paths of a dungeon to adquire a full set, as opposed to multiple runs of the same for a whole week.

Removal of the damn retrait/map travel/repair fees.

This, would, in theory, remove most of the RNG and my pet peeves from this game.

Glad you're not a game designer. Game economy would die in a couple weeks.

[TGIFrisbie]

Desild, on 03 December 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

RNG is a blemish, a taint, a corruption in gaming that benefits no other than our play time clock. I defeated RNG in my Pokémon games, and I will one day defeat it in Guild Wars 2, as I did in Guild Wars 1.

And the best solution is to Flanderize loot percentils, and allow a more equal distribution of important and inrequest loot. Such as:

Absolute chance of rare crafting loot (Shards, Cores, Lodestones) as appropriate per area and monster specie, across the game. Ideally, 33% chance of  obtaining said loot from specific mobs. That way we can mantain the need for 250 units of those items, and still be relatively free from the TIRANY of the trading post.

Key crafting materials for Karma, spread across the land, aswell as a proper item promotion system that doesn't involve that darn blasted Mystic Forge. Nor ridiculously expensive token items, as per those Elonian Wine Bottles.

Better rewards for dungeons. 1-2 Rare or Exotic item at the end chest, and removal/remake of the token system. Instead, include a chooseable reward at the end of the dungeon, as according to the path you are taking. Example, chest/helm/weapon at the end of path one, pants/boots on path 2, etc. Have us run multiple paths of a dungeon to adquire a full set, as opposed to multiple runs of the same for a whole week.

Removal of the damn retrait/map travel/repair fees.

This, would, in theory, remove most of the RNG and my pet peeves from this game.

You are a wise sage.  I would also like to see all stat options on crafted armor/weapons.  All stat options from PvE available in PvP/WvW, etc.  With  your ideas and this and removal of this forthcoming gear tread mill (remember, they "never promised no gear progression" so don't say it isn't coming full tilt) the game would have been perfect.  But the might $$ loomed it's head and anet sold out.

The_Tree_Branch, on 03 December 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

Glad you're not a game designer. Game economy would die in a couple weeks.

Game doesn't need to be work to earn to pay to play.  You are likely not a GW1 player.  I understand the jobless gamers need to feel like they are working, but I buy my games to PLAY for FUN, not WORK.

Edited by TGIFrisbie, 03 December 2012 - 10:23 PM.

[Desild]

The_Tree_Branch, on 03 December 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

Glad you're not a game designer. Game economy would die in a couple weeks.

So glad I'm a communist, and am able see past the nihilistic capitalism and twisted socialism that threatens civilization and our way of life, today and everyday in games and beyond. All economies are meant to be ruined, and the secret to them, is how to twist them so they can last longer before they do.

Too bad I want to dream of a transcended economy and put society in a state of equivalent change and opportuty. It's is a sad cycle...

[MFGrady]

RNG is necessary, but needs to be balanced by static rewards.

WoW had a great loot system where everyone would get tokens for the boss and the boss would drop X amount of items that could be looted on, always of high rarity.

The problem with GW2s loot tables are that they do not have any specific items, because everyone gets their own loot. Making it so that everyone gets a rarer drop from simply killing the boss would flood the market for items that are tradeable, and giving players rare, untradeable items at 100% rate would reduce the number of people actively grouping.

The RNG set up for GW2 as it stands is necessary for the how loot drops work, otherwise money would be worthless. This has nothing to do with MMOs. Any game that has money generation/expenditures as a game mechanics requires a balance between the ease of obtaining money vs the necessity of spending it: The more important money needs is, the more difficult it needs to be to obtain.

MMOs being persistent, allowing you to repeat content over and over, requires that the rewards for repeatable, easy content not skew the cost of the most hard sought items. Considering how easy it is to do anything in GW2, the current RNG is necessary. Players just need to understand that they aren't going to get everything over night.

[Inspectah Paux]

RNG itself isn't the problem, but the amount of it used in the game and how reliant certain things are on it is a bit ridiculous. Good example is the dye system right now, there are so many dyes in the game right now, with so many of them being redundant, that getting an Abyss Dye from an unid dye is much more rare than it should be. Abyss dye should really be closer to 3-5g comparing it to black dye from GW1 but right now it's up to like 18g last time I checked,

[Wifflebottom]

Mystic forge recipes where you can combine 4 sets of 100 different dungeon tokens and you get a random exotic armor piece or weapon or 4 sets of 60 different tokens to get a random rare armor piece or weapon. This gives people an incentive to do different dungeons. The resultants would be soulbound on acquire. Or they could make magic find actually worth it...

Edited by Mr_Original, 04 December 2012 - 04:18 AM.