18 replies to this topic

[Tal El Hawkins]

Recently I am considering a build to stack bleeding.

I do understand that in the current game status, condition builds may be inferior to power builds due to stacking cap and in a certain degree, the lack of burst.

Hence this thread is NOT to start off another Power Versus Condition debate.

Instead, under the assumption that you must go for a condition build particularly bleeding, adding which attribute would give a better DPS, Condition Damage or Condition Duration? And is there is a diminishing return in any of these attributes? (so far none that I have heard of, since adding each attribute seems to give a linear return).

As this is theorycrafting in PvE environment, we can assume that the mobs do not use any condition remover.

[Falfyrel]

Condition damage is nearly always better than condition duration.

Condition duration has stacking issues on many classes and condition removal makes the extra ticks of bleed it gives useless - but condition damage makes each individual tick hit for more, which is also useful in minimizing the amount of bleed stacks you have to put onto a target to maximize damage. And many skills that inflict bleeding have short enough cooldowns that they can be spammed.

Condition duration is useful to a point (I wouldn't suggest going any more than 30% longer at most), but otherwise, condition damage is far more useful.

[Trei]

Tal El Hawkins, on 04 December 2012 - 03:37 AM, said:

As this is theorycrafting in PvE environment, we can assume that the mobs do not use any condition remover.

Don't quote me on this, but I vaguely remember encountering a few types of mobs that do cast condition removers on their allies and self.
It said so on their name tags.

[Featherman]

If you're speaking only about damage, condition duration is rounded down to the nearest second for DoTs. If you want to be as efficient as possible with condition duration you'll want to go just over the next additional second of damage. But that's if you're nitpicky about stats. You can be like me and dump as much as possible in the stat and hope for the best.

As for which is better for DoTs, I'm pretty sure you'll get more bang for your buck condition damage but there's a soft cap on what you can obtain for either stat to consider as well. I think the maximum amount of condition damage you can attain is around 1400, but you can very easily add on some condition duration to that with runes and trait points.

Edited by Featherman, 04 December 2012 - 04:52 AM.

[Tjorriemorrie]

I would like to help you with this question, but it heavily depends on your class and skills you're looking at. Care to share?

[Linfang]

I do condition damage over duration. Make sure you eat your Pizza too.

http://www.gw2db.com...-veggie-pizza-s

[dynia666]

this is only for bleeds:
1. Go condi dmg from your gear to max
2. make duration from your traints to bleed duration for example warrior got 50% more bleed dura necro and ele 20% etc
3. make your runes 3x 15% bleed duration its 45% total (or 2x 10 condi dura and 15% bleed for pve and 1x 10 condi dura and 2x 15 bleed dura for pvp)
4. when you plan character remeber there is 100% condi duraion cap means you can't get more than 100% bleed duration up

[MazingerZ]

Trei, on 04 December 2012 - 04:41 AM, said:

Don't quote me on this, but I vaguely remember encountering a few types of mobs that do cast condition removers on their allies and self.
It said so on their name tags.

There's at least one common Risen that does this.  Anyway, damage for damage. Duration for debuffs.

[Kovares]

I think it really depends on the build in question, since hitting the cap is definitely possible in a lot of situations. Let's start with equipment. If we talk about the runes only, we are looking at:

2x Undead, 2x Krait, 2x Centaur = 56 cond dmg (28 from 2 sets), 45% duration bonus
vs.
a full 6x condition primary rune = 183 cond dmg (28+55+100) , which will also net you a 15% bleed duration bonus.

Therefore, the difference is 127 cond dmg vs. another 30% bleed duration. Everything else being equal, cond duration clearly pulls ahead in this example.

If you look at a more realistic situation, the numbers are slightly skewed though. If we assume you have specced for condition duration already, and are buffed with a rare veggie pizza, you already have 170%  total cond duration, the additional 15% you get from any cond dmg rune anyway will put you at 185%, so you you could only benefit from 1 more set of 2x runes, effectively making a 4x set better in this case.

Furthermore, if you are a warrior (50% bleed duration specced) or a necro (20% bleed specced) you should definitely try to get cond dmg from runes, since you are likely to hit the cap anyway.

TL; DR: you can realistically spec for 200% condition duration without runes in PVE, which makes a full 6x set of runes better.

Edited by Kovares, 05 December 2012 - 12:11 PM.

[Aetou]

In isolation, duration will generally give a higher damage increase (10% duration increase is roughly a 10% increase in damage, while 100 condition damage is only going to give you a 10% increase if you have a very low starting point.)  However, due to stacking issues you really do want to maximise your condition damage first (but should do both.)

[Quasi]

Aetou, on 05 December 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

In isolation, duration will generally give a higher damage increase (10% duration increase is roughly a 10% increase in damage, while 100 condition damage is only going to give you a 10% increase if you have a very low starting point.)  However, due to stacking issues you really do want to maximise your condition damage first (but should do both.)

Wrong. Conditions that deal damage over time only deal damage at each full second they tick; so if you have a skill that bleeds for 2 seconds, and you add 10% condition duration, your bleed will last 2.2 seconds, but will only tick twice. The condition itself will merely stay on the mob for longer. In order to actually get any use out of condition duration, you have to make sure you stack enough condition duration to get that skill to an even number. In the case of our bleed example, having 49% condition duration would be useless and a wasted stat. It is at 50% duration when the benefit would actually kick in.

[Aetou]

If you're using skills with absurdly short durations that's true.  If you are using skills with decent base bleed durations (6, 8, 12, etc.) then you get a much bigger return - especially as you should be aiming to hit 100% increased duration anyway (very easy to do with food) anyway which makes the whole issue rather moot.  Yes, you need to make sure that your combined condition duration increase interacts correctly with your specific conditions but as long as you do that you should be hitting at least 7% or so return from your equivalent of 10 trait points which is much more than the % damage increase that those same points put into condition damage would give you.  If you are using 1 or 2 second bleeds then you probably aren't doing all that much condition damage anyway.

[Lunacy Polish]

Quasi, on 05 December 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

Wrong. Conditions that deal damage over time only deal damage at each full second they tick; so if you have a skill that bleeds for 2 seconds, and you add 10% condition duration, your bleed will last 2.2 seconds, but will only tick twice. The condition itself will merely stay on the mob for longer. In order to actually get any use out of condition duration, you have to make sure you stack enough condition duration to get that skill to an even number. In the case of our bleed example, having 49% condition duration would be useless and a wasted stat. It is at 50% duration when the benefit would actually kick in.

While I agree with this, I just want to point out for the sake of the conversation that different people use conditions for different purposes.  I for instance use Bleeding on my Warrior to get the damage bonus from the Arms 25 trait and I don't really care about getting the extra ticks as much as I do getting the bleeds to stay on the target as long as possible.  This is a case where someone might stack duration for a damage condition without stacking much condition damage on their gear, etc.

[Lucas Ashrock]

Falfyrel, on 04 December 2012 - 04:24 AM, said:

Condition damage is nearly always better than condition duration.

Condition duration has stacking issues on many classes and condition removal makes the extra ticks of bleed it gives useless - but condition damage makes each individual tick hit for more, which is also useful in minimizing the amount of bleed stacks you have to put onto a target to maximize damage. And many skills that inflict bleeding have short enough cooldowns that they can be spammed.

Condition duration is useful to a point (I wouldn't suggest going any more than 30% longer at most), but otherwise, condition damage is far more useful.

Perfect answer.

[Featherman]

Condition duration is more useful as you stack more condition damage. Logically speaking, you'll want both to maximize DoTs. For starters though, condition damage initially gives more damage per point and helps you deal more damage in a shorter time frame.

[blindude]

Its simple really ..from dps standpoint condition duration is better.But if you take into account cond removals,the bleeding cap and maybe the slower build up of damage since you will do less damage if the things you fight die relatively fast cond damage is better in almost every way.
But if the right conditions are met you can get much  more dps by stacking duration.

[Dasryn]

Linfang, on 04 December 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

I do condition damage over duration. Make sure you eat your Pizza too.

http://www.gw2db.com...-veggie-pizza-s

this is ridiculous?!  how can a veggie pizza give you nourishment?  we are animals, we need meat!  red. MEAT!  protein!! we live off of protein!!

especially charr.

[jirayasan]

Depends on your build. If you want high spike damage you go Condition Damage and if you want support/tanky build go Condition Duration.

Going Condition Damage + Condition Durations also works, but for builds where you want to hide or kite your enemy, like a Thief with stealth or Ranger with traps.

As a Sword + Sword Warrior i would go with both as you can take alot of damage and endure the fight with the right utilities and traits, you also stack ALOT of bleeding if you use your skills correct.

[Bloggi]

Additional thing to consider from the POV of condition damage is that it is increased by Might, one of the most common boons thrown around in this game. There are a few builds suggested here that can build in excess of 20 stacks of Might in combat. At level 80, each stack of might adds 35 condition damage. In that case, increasing your boon duration indirectly increases your condition damage.