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#1 The Great Al

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:28 PM

When I think back to GW1, I think of the nostalgia factor of Droknar's Forge, Marhan's Grotto (remember the icy floor?), Ascalon City, Kaineng, Yak's Bend, and many of the other outposts. They were memorable, had functional use, and were social.

I miss that in GW2 - there is only one true hub (LA), and the rest of the cities, while very pretty, are empty. Adding to that, the cities are gigantic to the point that 95% of their area has no purpose other than POI and waypoint completion. On the other hand, outposts in GW1 were compact enough that if you had to run from corner to corner, it wasn't a chore and you actually had a REASON for going from one end to another (i.e. not to go up a bunch of steps just to see some NPCs at a 'bar' in LA).

Does anyone else agree? Would love to see the return of outposts besides just the 'generic rectangle with a merchant, armor repairer, and waypoints'

#2 FoxBat

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:39 PM

View PostThe Great Al, on 04 December 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

I miss that in GW2 - there is only one true hub (LA), and the rest of the cities, while very pretty, are empty.

This has nothing to do with the design of outposts/cities, and everything to do with districting vs. world/servers.

Comb all the players from all the servers together and you'd have at least a few districts worth of people in Divinity's Reach, etc.

Edited by FoxBat, 04 December 2012 - 03:39 PM.


#3 The Great Al

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:41 PM

View PostFoxBat, on 04 December 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

This has nothing to do with the design of outposts/cities, and everything to do with districting vs. world/servers.

Comb all the players from all the servers together and you'd have at least a few districts worth of people in Divinity's Reach, etc.

I didn't mean to imply that the design of the cities led to them being unpopulated. I actually don't even think it's related to the servers, it's more the fact that there are no save states in GW1 outside of outposts, so there would always be players there. Regardless of that, I still think the existing outpost-esque areas could  be more imaginative than they currently are.

Edited by The Great Al, 04 December 2012 - 03:41 PM.


#4 Asudementio

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:01 PM

View PostThe Great Al, on 04 December 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

When I think back to GW1, I think of the nostalgia factor of Droknar's Forge, Marhan's Grotto (remember the icy floor?), Ascalon City, Kaineng, Yak's Bend, and many of the other outposts. They were memorable, had functional use, and were social.

I miss that in GW2 - there is only one true hub (LA), and the rest of the cities, while very pretty, are empty. Adding to that, the cities are gigantic to the point that 95% of their area has no purpose other than POI and waypoint completion. On the other hand, outposts in GW1 were compact enough that if you had to run from corner to corner, it wasn't a chore and you actually had a REASON for going from one end to another (i.e. not to go up a bunch of steps just to see some NPCs at a 'bar' in LA).

Does anyone else agree? Would love to see the return of outposts besides just the 'generic rectangle with a merchant, armor repairer, and waypoints'

I don't particularly miss outposts, but cities aren't quite what i'd like them to be yet.

#5 Arquenya

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:09 PM

View PostThe Great Al, on 04 December 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

When I think back to GW1, I think of the nostalgia factor of Droknar's Forge, Marhan's Grotto (remember the icy floor?), Ascalon City, Kaineng, Yak's Bend, and many of the other outposts. They were memorable, had functional use, and were social.

I miss that in GW2 - there is only one true hub (LA), and the rest of the cities, while very pretty, are empty. Adding to that, the cities are gigantic to the point that 95% of their area has no purpose other than POI and waypoint completion. On the other hand, outposts in GW1 were compact enough that if you had to run from corner to corner, it wasn't a chore and you actually had a REASON for going from one end to another (i.e. not to go up a bunch of steps just to see some NPCs at a 'bar' in LA).

Does anyone else agree? Would love to see the return of outposts besides just the 'generic rectangle with a merchant, armor repairer, and waypoints'
Fisherman's Haven :)

Yes, the one-mission heart quests also has a side-effect: there's hardly any villages, smaller outposts where you would like to stay for a while, or it must be that there's a dungeon attached. Add in WP travel costs and basically everyone's sticking to the designated "cities".

I hope they add player housing, guild halls (without WP fee) and more utilities, perhaps taverns, mini-games, as instances and additions attached to some of the bigger villages like Ebonhawke or Beetletun. To make it a bit more a living, breathing world.

#6 The Great Al

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:12 PM

View PostArquenya, on 04 December 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

Fisherman's Haven :)

Yes, the one-mission heart quests also has a side-effect: there's hardly any villages, smaller outposts where you would like to stay for a while, or it must be that there's a dungeon attached. Add in WP travel costs and basically everyone's sticking to the designated "cities".

I hope they add player housing, guild halls (without WP fee) and more utilities, perhaps taverns, mini-games, as instances and additions attached to some of the bigger villages like Ebonhawke or Beetletun. To make it a bit more a living, breathing world.

I agree. Also, isn't the Wintersday event happening primarily in LA? That is a mistake, IMO. Why not have it in Hoelbrak, or one of the other cities, just to actually populate it for a few days?

#7 RedStar

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:17 PM

View PostThe Great Al, on 04 December 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

I agree. Also, isn't the Wintersday event happening primarily in LA? That is a mistake, IMO. Why not have it in Hoelbrak, or one of the other cities, just to actually populate it for a few days?

Lorewise it has no business to be in Hoelbrak. It barely has any business to be in LA.
It should take place in DR since Humans are the only one to believe in the 6 gods and their powers.

#8 Sword Hammer Axe

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:31 PM

Marhan's Grotto was a pain because of that Icy Floor, imo...

As for the outposts being populated: Marhan's Grotto (as an example again) was always empty. Sometimes you'd see a person get in there to buy his armor, but immediately leave as soon as he got it. Sure, chances were that you'd run into him, because the entire outpost was nothing but a circular design with a few houses. There was absolutely nothing there.

And this was one of the wildly populated ones. Let's check the Maguuma Jungle: Remember Maguuma Stade? I don't blame you if you don't, because it was dead. People who wanted 100% map completion or at least all outposts had it, and that's it. Tons of people barely even knew it was there. There was absolutely nothing here.

The most visited outpost was probably, as you mentioned, Yak's Bend. It had some quests, some Dolyaks, that little arena, and you HAD to get through it because the storyline led you thereto. It was interesting, but only because you came there by default and you got there when you were still early in the game and everything was interesting. Later on when you got the Ventari's Refuge, did you stick around for long? I know I sure didn't. I only stuck around for a couple of quests and on I went.

Ascalon City? Not an outpost, but a town, marked differently by the sumbol on the map. Yes, this was populated, but also only because it was early in the game. As people got to the end of the game, Droknar's Forge became much more interesting as well as LA, and after a few months Ascalon City was crowded with newbies or scammers only. Even more time passed and it was pretty much dead.

Kaineng City became popular because it was the LA of Factions. Had it been a part of Guild Wars from the get-go and not part of a new game in the series, it probably wouldn't have been as interesting.

Kamadan? In the end: Spamadan... how I loathed being there for longer than necessary...

What I'm trying to say is basically that towns and outposts in GW1 were: Mostly visually unimpressive, pretty much dead if it wasn't either LA, Kaineng City (and this was only for a while too), Kamadan or Eye of the North (and for PvP'ers Great Temple of Balthazar), which were all parts of a new game. The only redeeming feature these places had was the quests, which some of them didn't even have. I'm saying this as a huge GW1 fan.

Although I will say: Guild Halls and the actual quests (not heart quests, but actual freaking quests) were awesome. I miss those.

#9 Runkleford

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:43 PM

The way outposts should work is that they should be like sanctuaries in the middle of a few zones where players can sell or buy and access their bank or just hang out. There are plenty of merchants scattered throughout the game but very little reason to just hang out in those villages and camps because so few of them have banks or crafting areas.

And now with Fractals centered in LA, there's no reason to hang out anywhere else. We've all been herded to that one zone and it's a shame since there's so much more scenery to the game. It's not much better than just having one instanced town and instanced dungeons. We just have a lot of persistent lands out there that not a lot of people living in them. It really is a shame.

Edited by Runkleford, 04 December 2012 - 06:45 PM.


#10 Gruunz

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:49 PM

Once they actually add in the mini games and extras (bar fights) maybe cities will be a little more populated. Although saying that, Divinity's Reach is the only city that offers that kind of stuff. There is a fair/carnival set up ready for use and there is actually a bar(s) set around the town.

Do the other home cities have them? Rata Sum has barely anything in it, Black Citadel looks like  docking station and Hoelbrak has a bunch of 'shrine/temple' thingies and kegbrawl.

Clearly the non-human areas were not thoroughly designed to have such engaging activities. It's all about Divinity's Reach when it comes to 'live city'.

#11 matsif

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:33 PM

I've found that there are enough merchants and stuff along the way to keep my inventory clear, but I do miss bank access.  I hate having to go to a major city after a dungeon or world event or whatever when there are 3-5 "outposts" on the map with merchants, repair guys, and sometimes even TP access and crafting stations, but no bank.  It wouldn't be that hard to take the largest "outpost" on the map (like song of final exile in snowden drifts, the priory fortress in lornars, etc) and insert a bank npc, especially with the ridiculous waypoint costs at level 80.

Edited by matsif, 04 December 2012 - 07:33 PM.


#12 Celestial_Rabbit

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:26 PM

I miss the outposts of GW1 mainly because of storage access, which is absolutely horrid in GW2.  It's nice to be able to instantly transfer all crafting materials to storage, but that's the only plus to the way it's set up.  Bouncing around the map just to transfer an item from one character to another (and you have to di it on both characters!) is an unneccessary PITA.

#13 Sword Hammer Axe

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:12 PM

View PostGruunz, on 04 December 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Once they actually add in the mini games and extras (bar fights) maybe cities will be a little more populated. Although saying that, Divinity's Reach is the only city that offers that kind of stuff. There is a fair/carnival set up ready for use and there is actually a bar(s) set around the town.

Do the other home cities have them? Rata Sum has barely anything in it, Black Citadel looks like  docking station and Hoelbrak has a bunch of 'shrine/temple' thingies and kegbrawl.

Clearly the non-human areas were not thoroughly designed to have such engaging activities. It's all about Divinity's Reach when it comes to 'live city'.

Well, as you said, Hoelbrak has keg brawl. Rata Sum will most likely have Polymock, which is what the portal under construction on the middle level is probably for.

#14 Cobalt60

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:34 AM

View Postmatsif, on 04 December 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

I've found that there are enough merchants and stuff along the way to keep my inventory clear, but I do miss bank access.  I hate having to go to a major city after a dungeon or world event or whatever when there are 3-5 "outposts" on the map with merchants, repair guys, and sometimes even TP access and crafting stations, but no bank.  It wouldn't be that hard to take the largest "outpost" on the map (like song of final exile in snowden drifts, the priory fortress in lornars, etc) and insert a bank npc, especially with the ridiculous waypoint costs at level 80.

Crafting stations are banks.

#15 matsif

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:04 AM

View PostCobalt60, on 05 December 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

Crafting stations are banks.

yes, but very few zones have them, so my point still stands.

#16 Cobalt60

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:16 AM

Many zones do.

Edited by Cobalt60, 05 December 2012 - 01:19 AM.


#17 Ualtar

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:29 AM

View PostSword Hammer Axe, on 04 December 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

Marhan's Grotto was a pain because of that Icy Floor, imo...


Marhan's Grotto was fun because of that Icy Floor.  My wife, some friends, and I would go there to ice skate.

#18 Trei

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:51 AM

I agree each race needs to be given a few good reasons to return to their respective capitals on a routine basis, followed by secondary reasons for them to visit the other races' capital cities, also on a routine basis but not as frequently.

I really do not like the idea of having the whole game population centered around Lion's Arch.

My norn should be choosing Hoelbrak as the go-to place for anything LA can provide, except trading.
But as of now, I do not remember when was the last time I went back there.

A good start could be to allow free travel from a anywhere back to ones own racial capital.
It is already essentially free now anyway, why not just make it more direct?

Edited by Trei, 05 December 2012 - 03:11 AM.


#19 kook

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:27 AM

I definitely miss outposts. I wish towns felt separate from the pve world just like cities are.

#20 ExplosivePinata

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:34 AM

View PostThe Great Al, on 04 December 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

When I think back to GW1, I think of the nostalgia factor of Droknar's Forge, Marhan's Grotto (remember the icy floor?), Ascalon City, Kaineng, Yak's Bend, and many of the other outposts. They were memorable, had functional use, and were social.

I miss that in GW2 - there is only one true hub (LA), and the rest of the cities, while very pretty, are empty. Adding to that, the cities are gigantic to the point that 95% of their area has no purpose other than POI and waypoint completion. On the other hand, outposts in GW1 were compact enough that if you had to run from corner to corner, it wasn't a chore and you actually had a REASON for going from one end to another (i.e. not to go up a bunch of steps just to see some NPCs at a 'bar' in LA).

Does anyone else agree? Would love to see the return of outposts besides just the 'generic rectangle with a merchant, armor repairer, and waypoints'

I miss having that true goal for how I felt at the time in GW1 when I joined a pug or Guildies for Zaishen if you want to put a head on it.  Gone are the days of wanting to do dungeons or being introduced to PvP via Jade Quarry.  Now it's you have to do these, not because they are fun, but because, you have to, just because.  PvE only player?  FU, your achievements don't matter, you have to play our WvW!

Granted JQ was optional for Cartography title but still, did anyone enjoy having to do it or having teammates who were only there for it?  Anet should've learned and separated PvE players from PvP ones.

Edited by ExplosivePinata, 05 December 2012 - 03:48 AM.


#21 Ghostwing

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:47 AM

View PostTrei, on 05 December 2012 - 02:51 AM, said:

I agree each race needs to be given a few good reasons to return to their respective capitals on a routine basis, followed by secondary reasons for them to visit the other races' capital cities, also on a routine basis but not as frequently.

I really do not like the idea of having the whole game population centered around Lion's Arch.

My norn should be choosing Hoelbrak as the go-to place for anything LA can provide, except trading.
But as of now, I do not remember when was the last time I went back there.

A good start could be to allow free travel from a anywhere back to ones own racial capital.
It is already essentially free now anyway, why not just make it more direct?

It'd be extraneous, and I imagine most people would still mists-> LA anyway, since LA has gates to every other city.

I think the home instances was supposed to make you go to your home city more, but there's nothing there right now. I think it is a shame that they have these big cities but nothing to do in them. Then again the only game that I can remember that had cities of different flavors was UO...because the crowded cities were brustling with player thieves that can steal from you. Each city was dependent on the player community there. Even games like EQ where you can't go into enemy cities, they were all essentially the same and just bank and vendor places.

#22 RedStar

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:57 AM

They were supposed to have activities (bar brawl, archery and whatnot) in cities, but that didn't make it in the final game and it's nothing something they are really actively working on right now.

Edited by RedStar, 05 December 2012 - 03:57 AM.


#23 Feminist Terrorist

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:43 AM

I would kiss a grawl just to have some bank access "out in the wild"! Out in the Shiverpeaks, for example, there are no crafting stations or bank access. I've had several great items drop which would be fantastic for another character, and they take up room in my bags until I get fed up with it and gate back to LA just to offload the stuff. It's a total pain, and I wish Anet would include some sort of bank access at least every other zone.

#24 Lady Rhonwyn

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:58 AM

View PostCobalt60, on 05 December 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

Many zones do.
The only zones that have crafting stations are zones that are next to a town.  That is, the 5 starter areas and Ebonhawke.  Which always seemed weird to me.  You'd expect a crafting station in the wild the further you got away from a town.  Maybe not all of them, but one or two, depending on the area.  A Huntsman station in a wooded area, a cooking station next to the sea...

#25 Syncline

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:18 AM

The cities are usually active on my server, but it's also an RP server; while not everyone in town is an RPer, it makes it nicer for others to hang out there too because there's always someone to talk to.

Edit: I'm in DR right now and it's pretty busy, there's even a biggish dance party going on.

Edited by Syncline, 05 December 2012 - 09:19 AM.


#26 Sword Hammer Axe

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:01 AM

View PostUaltar, on 05 December 2012 - 02:29 AM, said:

Marhan's Grotto was fun because of that Icy Floor.  My wife, some friends, and I would go there to ice skate.

Yeah, when your movement speed is simply reduced by 70% I don't consider it ice skating, unless you mean those painful first 20 minutes where you're trying to learn it, having a Bambi time standing up and going forward, which were more hellish than fun. :P

#27 Noirr

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:53 PM

give a skill or item that will let you teleport from any place to your city of origin perhpas 3 or 5 times per day and you will see those empty cities much more populated...atm only LA has free teleport access (although annoying cause you have to go through mists) people use it a lot and because of wp costs its better to be on a central area like LA.


pd: also stupid fractals poluting LA , nowadays its just lfg fractals level this and that...

Edited by Noirr, 05 December 2012 - 06:54 PM.


#28 Vapor

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 07:22 PM

View PostSword Hammer Axe, on 04 December 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

Marhan's Grotto was a pain because of that Icy Floor, imo...

As for the outposts being populated: Marhan's Grotto (as an example again) was always empty. Sometimes you'd see a person get in there to buy his armor, but immediately leave as soon as he got it. Sure, chances were that you'd run into him, because the entire outpost was nothing but a circular design with a few houses. There was absolutely nothing there.


You obviously never went there in the first couple of years. It was definitely not 'dead', one of the better hangouts in the early years of GW1

#29 Feathermoore

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 07:58 PM

View PostSword Hammer Axe, on 04 December 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

snip

You can really only compare GW2 to Proph. During Proph pretty much every zone had at least a noticeable population. Sure the war camp didn't have multiple districts (before sorrow's furnace) but there were still people everywhere. Heck, players would purposefully hold events in out of the way places Meguuma Stade was one such location with Serenity Temple being a big hotspot for parties and RP meetings.

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#30 Joucou

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:04 PM

Not sure if it's just me, but I miss the Marhan's Grotto drunk parties.. :)

Well, LA has pretty much everything you need and thanks to the travel costs, I don't think most people want to teleport around just for fun. Really wish they'd remove or atleast reduce the maptravel prices.




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