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Boring WvWvW - a flashpoint

wuvwuv wvwvw wm war machine

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#61 fatality39

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 12:31 AM

When I first saw their forums/website, I thought to myself they seemed setup in a lazy manner with no real top mmo feel.  Hell SOE PS2 forums have more going for it.   GW2 forums= bland.   Funny how it resembles the game now.

#62 Vanu4life

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 12:57 AM

View PostMrZero, on 07 December 2012 - 12:21 AM, said:

Could we get a couple links in here so that anyone reading this can find those threads? I don't mean that in a pics or it didn't happen kind of way. I just can't stand the layout of their forums.

I counted 5 on the first page.  They aren't hard to find.

Edit:  If you really want links, I'll put up as many as I can get in a few hours later.

Edited by Vanu4life, 07 December 2012 - 01:01 AM.


#63 LavaSquid

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:42 AM

Give. Us. Daily. WvW. Achievement. Reward. Ectos.

(Day dreaming)

#64 Obscure One

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:23 AM

View PostKenjamin, on 06 December 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

That is the bad news?!

Then, I suppose the real reason why GW2 is "failing" is not because of the game itself, but because the society of gamers has become way too addicted and spends way too much time playing video games.  Never thought I'd hear myself say that, but I guess Blink182 was right about growing up.

Go for a jog.  Help old ladies accross a street.  Get laid.  Get laid by old ladies for helping them jog accross a street.

The reason why I think this game isn't actually failing, is because I don't have to spend 4-5 hours a day playing it to have all of the cool stuff that I want.

If I do want to play 4-5 hours a day there is more than enough stuff to do to advance both my main character, or my account as a whole.

If I don't want to play 4-5 hours a day, I'm still kicking ass when I do play, because I'm a good player and not because I've done all my "chores" for the week (I'm looking at you, Blizzard).

Skill/Efficiency > Disposable Time.

WvW has some things that could use fixing.  It does need some updates and some attention.  Lots of reasonable and beneficial ideas have been listed in this tread.  To say the game is dying because people don't feel motivated to waste their life away in front of it, well.......

Firstly I'd like to say: LOL that's f'n awesome

But secondly I feel I need to explain the situation in more detail. MMO's, particularly ones with a "Teen" rating are targeting an audience between the ages of 13 and 20. Folks in this age group, particularly ones who play MMO's, have far more than 4-5 hours a day to burn on games, whilst those in my age group of 25-35 (the bulk of the "M" rated crowd) have jobs, mortgages, kids, car payments, bars to frequent, sports to watch, a significant other to please/piss-off, and if we're really lucky about 5-6 hours to sleep. Now, keeping that in mind, the key to success in an MMO isn't really having a good game (WoW has proven that for years), but rather the ability to hold your target audience to maintain high server population whereby maintaining a high interest which translates to more money to put back into holding that target audience; it's a self sustaining system. The best way to accomplish maintaining high server populations is done by targeting the audience with the MOST free time. HOWEVER despite the "T" rating GW2 holds, the content holds player interest as though its designed for a "we have other s*** to do today" M rated crowd, but demands the time commitment of the "I hope my mom doesn't hear me up playing games past my bed time" T rated crowd. Thus players with 8 or more hours a day to burn in an MMO burn out (as many have already) due to the lack of content for them, whilst those who have 5 hours or less are walking away because they just don't have the time for the "minimal grind" (B.S.) to keep up with the gear power creep that they were assured wouldn't ever be in GW2 to begin with.

That is why I said this was BAD news. They need to either design a game for the "I hope I can make some progress before I have to pick up my kid from school" crowd OR the ‚Äč"I hope I can make some progress before my dad finds out I got two F's on my report card" crowd. Trying to do both has thus far resulted in major complications for the game...as well as the former crowd grounding the later...not just for the F's, but for grinding in a game that advertised itself as not wanting its players to grind resulting in F's. Teaches them a valuable lesson about why you shouldn't listen to liars.

Edited by Obscure One, 07 December 2012 - 04:24 AM.


#65 NCLTDS

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 05:28 AM

well you are at it, how about taking out trebbing bay from garrison? you want my keep? COME OUT AND TAKE IT!

#66 skiznoid

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 12:02 PM

I had tons of fun for the first months of release but it just became too repetative, fighting the same servers in t1 week after week has also become annoying. I would love to see them turn WvWvW into a ladder tournament format with a huge prize at the end, not allowing transfers to take place until the entire tournament is over and only allowing transfers off of the top 3 placing servers. That would cause huge population shifts in servers and keep it interesting.

I would love to come back if they make changes and add a significant amount of content to wvwvw but with Darkfall UW around the corner they are loosing their chance to give me that shot of MMO heroin that will keep me addicted. If they get it right i can be a dedicated customer for 10 years like i was for everquest but right now it doesn't look like that's happening.

Edited by skiznoid, 07 December 2012 - 12:03 PM.


#67 Targanwolf

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:37 PM

Yes WvW is a shambles.
Why ?
The maps are too small.Getting from one point to another takes seconds.That leads to a lack of permanence to anything a player does....which leads to the zerg to take places quickly.....which leads to endless repetition and is capped off with a 24/7 point system(which reinforces the notion of repeating the endless zerg 24 hours a day).Add in the que to take away any  immersion(not so many ques now  that the failure of the WvW system has gotten understood by everyone except the most ardent kool-aid drinkers) and you have a recipe for a game loosing players.


Can the system be made to work ? Yes....but a major re thinking of WvW needs  to happen.Given how far off the mark the basic concepts are...I'm not optomistic.

#68 Zheo

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:31 PM

The reality is that ANet has said that they will address WvW in next month's update, or February's. That, really, is a pittance of time to wait. Now, before you launch your flame cannons in my direction, I agree with you. WvW is boring.  A friend of mine on Sorrow's Furnace has refused to log on this week because his server is being crushed by Borlis Pass...BP is over 200K in points while the other severs have yet to break 100k. How can an imbalance like this happen? There are rankings, etc, but really, what is the bonus in logging in to get crushed. Mis-matches like this need to be addressed, else you see a week where people dont want to bother logging in to an already unrewarding portion of the game.

#69 Hennet

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 05:55 PM

The official forum thread 3 pages without a response from Anet. I feel WvW is going down fast and I dont want it to :(

#70 Beastgate

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 06:14 PM

To be honest 3 pages is nothing, they've gone much longer on other issues without any response.

#71 Global_GW2

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 06:42 PM

View PostHennet, on 07 December 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

The official forum thread 3 pages without a response from Anet. I feel WvW is going down fast and I dont want it to :(

I'll quote MrZero from his post earlier in this thread, as it mirrors my opinion on this ...

View PostMrZero, on 06 December 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:


I think they know the community is pissed off. I think they figured out the whole wvw thing is way more popular than they expected and figured out in the last month or less that they need to make changes. After the Nov 15th fiasco, I'm pretty sure that they don't want to say more than they have because if they say anything specific it will cause problems regardless.

If they say they are adding anything specific and it don't make it in, people will flip out. If they make a vague allusion to what they want to put in and then then go back on it, people will flip out. With that in mind, why the hell should they say anything?


#72 Jabtangs

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 06:44 PM

View PostGlobal_GW2, on 07 December 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

I'll quote MrZero from his post earlier in this thread, as it mirrors my opinion on this ...

I agree to what Zero said, but they also have to realize that if they don't say anything, people will flip out. lol

#73 Veles

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 06:54 PM

This is a list I made long time ago and why I think WvW in this game is horrible:

1. Only two maps (Eternal Battlegrounds and three times copy/pasted borderlands)
2. Maps are too small and objectives are way too clumped up
3. Zergs win the game
4. No option to roam with smaller groups
5. No option to make a group bigger then five (whoever mentions Commanders and Squads needs to GTFO)
6. Invisible enemies
7. Zero skill needed, since all you do is spam AOE (check some videos from "top notch" WvW guilds, it is laughable)
8 Waaaaay too much AOE and it stacks
9. Bugs and exploits
10. No personal progression and no progression overall - WvW is just one big circle jerking festival with no endgame and no purpose
11. Scoring system
12. Downed system  means smaller groups can never win against zergs due to the fact that you will get outrevived
13. No enemy player names

#74 Vihar

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 07:01 PM

I have come to the conclusion that downed state needs to be a LOT more squishy, but with a lot better skills to avoid death.

  For me to have to spend 5-10 seconds just finishing off a guy in downed state while a fight is going on is kind of...well..kind of sucks PVP-wise.

  I like the idea of it, I just don't like that a downed player can tank so much damage before they actually die. I swear people are tougher in downed state than they are standing up!

#75 Beastgate

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 07:50 PM

They're having a community discussion about dungeons, they need one of these for WvW: https://forum-en.gui...-Dungeons/first

#76 Vanu4life

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:50 PM

View PostBeastgate, on 07 December 2012 - 07:50 PM, said:

They're having a community discussion about dungeons, they need one of these for WvW: https://forum-en.gui...-Dungeons/first

Not like I proposed the servers coming together to organize themselves in an attempt to get something going or anything.  It's the only way I can see us forcing a reply.  Get everyone together, make one solid thread, have the entire WvW community and all the guilds/servers involved spam the hell out of the thread and PM the link to the Dev's.

#77 MrZero

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:46 PM

View PostJabtangs, on 07 December 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

I agree to what Zero said, but they also have to realize that if they don't say anything, people will flip out. lol

View PostGlobal_GW2, on 07 December 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

I'll quote MrZero from his post earlier in this thread, as it mirrors my opinion on this ...

Thnx. I kinda thought I might be talking out of my ass. I seriously think they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. I'd like to add, I agree with Vanu says too. If it looks like I was feuding with him or singling him out, I left the wrong impression. He is right too. If any response is going to be garnered, it needs to be a mass community effort. We only disagree on one thing with that. I don't think it should matter what server people are on. People playing on Kaening have just as much right to be upset as people on SoS.

I guess the bottom line of my opinion is, we all have to have a little patience with the situation. This is the first game where I have actually took the time to post on public forums of any type. While I have been playing one MMO or another since Shadowbane was released in 2003, I never posted on public forums at all and think I have one post in the ANet forums. The reason is that I honestly think that the general online gamer is just too damn arrogant, impatient and self righteous. They are like Veruca Salt in the older Willy Wonka movie. "I WANT IT AND I WANT IT NOW". I think Queen made a song like that too.

#78 Vanu4life

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:01 PM

Lovers don't feud, they have quarrels.

#79 MrZero

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:10 PM

View PostVeles, on 07 December 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

This is a list I made long time ago and why I think WvW in this game is horrible:

1. Only two maps (Eternal Battlegrounds and three times copy/pasted borderlands)
2. Maps are too small and objectives are way too clumped up
3. Zergs win the game
4. No option to roam with smaller groups
5. No option to make a group bigger then five (whoever mentions Commanders and Squads needs to GTFO)
6. Invisible enemies
7. Zero skill needed, since all you do is spam AOE (check some videos from "top notch" WvW guilds, it is laughable)
8 Waaaaay too much AOE and it stacks
9. Bugs and exploits
10. No personal progression and no progression overall - WvW is just one big circle jerking festival with no endgame and no purpose
11. Scoring system
12. Downed system  means smaller groups can never win against zergs due to the fact that you will get outrevived
13. No enemy player names

Some of these I agree with some I agree with but understand.

1. If there were four different maps then there would be complaints about one side having an unfair advantage on multiple maps because blah blah. (I hope that is enough to see where that would go.) HOWEVER, I see no reason why they can't have like 4 different borderland maps and have teh borderlands switch between those at reset. Yes, you would still have 3 maps that are the same for the week but, each week those would be different.

2. I don't know if they are too small or if we are just able to move around them too freely. On the fence with this one.

3. I don't know what to say. I never played DAOC. Personally, from what I've heard, I would have hated it. This seems like a subject that makes a lot of DAOC vets sore. I digress though because, I think the word zerg gets thrown around to freely.

4. Agreed. I think it ties into number 3.

5. Agree 100%

6. Nuff said.

7. I dunno about this. WHen I run into a keep and see people spamming aoe, I either do a double dodge roll through it or don't run into it. If they want to sit there 2 keying, I'm not gonna hand them the victory.

8. This ties into 7.

9. Nuff said

10. I'll split this one with you. There is no personal progression, unless you level up all the way to 80 in wvw. I do however think the intention of wvw was supposed to be something to do for fun at the endgame. I think a lot of us took it way more seriously than ANet thought we would. It's kind of not all their fault though really, all other games out there are shit when it comes to large scale pvp.

11. Scores. Can't live with them, can't live without em.

12. Agreed. I'd also add that the downed system was just a terrible idea to begin with. No personal offense to the person that came up with it but, in my book he/she is in the same category as the asshole who came up with underwater combat in MMOs. UW combat sucked when they came up with it and still sucks today. Why not just add more health to characters and when they are dead they are dead. We can keep res as it is but, screw this downed state shit.

13. Imagine. A world where you see someone writing a check on forums somewhere and then you can tell who they are in game. Imagine. A world where to go out and have a really epic fight with some guy and win or lose, you could tell him specifically, "GG".

View PostVanu4life, on 07 December 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

Lovers don't feud, they have quarrels.

eErr. that might have offended someone. Instead...


Sorry chief! I lurve teh ladies.

Edited by MrZero, 07 December 2012 - 10:11 PM.


#80 Jabtangs

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:29 PM

Vanu is a nice guy

#81 Speznaz

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:08 PM

I think WvW could stand a bit of improvement from the standpoint of loot and bonuses, but that is on their horizon. Since ANet did mention that ascended gear was rolled out first only in fractals on purpose and admitted that to be a miscalculation. They will be adding it to other aspects of the game including WvW, so no worries there.

As to other points brought up here I would like to offer some perspective.
In terms of character progression that everyone is complaining that they are lacking, lets take two other games that preceded GW2 that did it: DAoC and their bastard child WAR.

DAoC had a system of Realm Ranks. Originally there were 10 then they added two more. Progression through the ranks allowed you purchasing improved abilities / stats, making your character more powerful. Well, that creates an problem in itself, where the older players of Realm Rank 10-12 would be above and beyond more powerful than a newbie. That would create an artificial barrier to entry into WvW. Yes current players would benefit and temporarily feel "progression" but that would hamper influx of new people. Furthermore, the feeling of progression is temporary, until you reach that top rank and feel bored again.

As such, I am in favor of unique skins/tags/distinguishing marks/website with top WvW players per server, profession. The latter being something I miss the most. DAoC used to have section on their (camelotherald.com) where they would publish top players per sever and then across professions, with their weekly score, creating competition.

As to the point of zergs. Well they existed and will exist. Bigger zergs don't necessarily win the battles, better organized ones do. DAoC had the Alb zerg, and there were outcries about that, but given comparable numbers, organization wins.

As for smaller teams, they do have options here of roaming and taking objectives, and contributing. They might just lack coordination to achieve overall objective. But I don't expect them to take on a full zerg. In DAoC there was/is frankly unfair mechanic of blanket mezz, where a spell with a fast cast time and a long range (Sorcerer's Mezz) would render all players in area unable to move for over a minute (80 seconds) unless attacked. And then a group would sprint in point-blank AOE and the then cast Speed Of Sound and escape unscathed. Yeah, fun for 8 ppl at the expense of 30+.

Maps diversity, is VERY tricky, as such I think 3 identical BL maps is good solution. Once again DAoC had 3 different maps, and Emain Macha was the favorite hang out place, whereas the other 2 were deserted.

I find the GW2 way better than famed DAoC, which I've played since October 2001 off an on for 10 years. I would support providing more loot through WvW. Maybe expanding and introducing some coveted areas to do PVE to draw ppl in. Other than that, one has to like to WvW for PvP aspect of it, rather than "progression". For progression one can go to WoW and progress through endless tiers of gear and feel uber after grinding arenas. Yeah, that is what I call fun, criting noobs with no resilience.

Edited by Speznaz, 07 December 2012 - 11:12 PM.


#82 Vanu4life

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:17 PM

Even Aion has PvP ranks and abilities and I'm pretty sure Aion is/was considered one of the worst PvP games of all time.

#83 Norseman

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:23 PM

Posted Image

#84 Speznaz

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:28 PM

One more thing to add:

To the point that others maid, I like the fact that i can play casually and still compete with hardcore players. I have other responsibilities and can't dedicate much time to gaming.  But, I also have disposable income and buy gems. Is there room for improvement? Most definitely, there always is, everywhere and with everything. Just take a look in the mirror.

Is ANet doing a good job? Hell YES! After major flops of the games that tried and failed to provide good WvW:

WoW - originally had plans to do world faction pvp. DAoC players originally flocked to WoW but then got disenchanted and went back.
WAR ( Warhammer Age of Reckoning) - frankly only bears same development house name, resemblance ends there.

I might be missing others, but in my opinion after WoW grew big, nobody else tried to do WvW style PvP.

So in the end they had a good start and moving in the right direction. Most of the people in this thread seem to suffer from ADHD, and nothing will hold their attention for long.

#85 Vanu4life

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:30 PM

If by "off to a good start" you mean that almost all the major PvP guilds that came to GW2 for the PvP have left, including the oldest and most accomplished Guild Wars PvP guild WM, then I agree.

#86 Speznaz

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:44 PM

So they left. Or maybe not all of them. Maybe GW2 did not match their expectations, or for whatever other reason, other servers are still active. Maybe server pride is not enough. My server is active. The competition is active. Some ppl leave, play other games. Planetside 2 came out. They can as easily come back, there is no subscription. These games are about community and having fun and meeting ppl. I was also not having fun in one guild, since they were not active in WvW, so I found a new one that is.

GW2 will foster its own community for WvW and sPvP respectively. Once again, it all takes time, one can't have everything and NOW!

I don't see any other game that offers as much bang for my buck as does GW2 with WvW.

Edited by Speznaz, 07 December 2012 - 11:49 PM.


#87 Vanu4life

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:00 AM

I'm curious, what servers in NA are still active?  Everyone I know about is dealing with rolling out manned buffs and I don't know a single one anymore with queues.

You say it will take time to foster its own community, but the community is not growing.  It is diminishing.  That is what people are pointing out.  Not a single person has asked for "everything now".  I wonder if people will use that same excuse if WvW becomes completely dead. "Don't worry guys, wait one more year.  You can't have everything now".

#88 skiznoid

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:53 AM

View PostVanu4life, on 08 December 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

You say it will take time to foster its own community, but the community is not growing.  It is diminishing.  That is what people are pointing out.  Not a single person has asked for "everything now".  I wonder if people will use that same excuse if WvW becomes completely dead. "Don't worry guys, wait one more year.  You can't have everything now".

Bingo.

If an MMO is shrinking in its 4th month that is a huge problem that needs to be adressed. I didn't play GW1 but it's my understanding the game had constant growth for a while into it's lifecycle.

Ive never seen an MMO with empty newbie areas this early ever come back with a strong population. If we see any server mergers by summer consider this game dead.

Edited by skiznoid, 08 December 2012 - 01:53 AM.


#89 MrZero

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 04:02 AM

And yet, SBI has a 24/7 que in Lion's Arch that is well over 45 minutes most of the time. This is twice the game GW was in my opinion. I quit that pile of crap after 2 weeks.




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