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On Mordremoth, the Sixth Elder Dragon, and its corruption methods


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#1 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:57 AM

Today, I finally got around to doing the third path for Crucible of Eternity (CoE) (third for me that is) and being able to observe the dungeon in its full. As such, I'd like to present my full view on the matter of the Sixth Elder Dragon's identity and means of corruption (which is more or less in half-agreement half-disagreement with the general public's view). I'd post this in one of the pre-existing threads, but I fear they're either all too focused on a single particular aspect of the general public's view.

Subject Alpha
As some may or may not know, the main enemy in is an Inquest-created multi-Elder Dragon minion known as "Subject Alpha" - this creature uses abilities reminiscent/named after four Elder Dragons and a "Mordremoth" - specifically, it's skills are as follows:

*Imprisonment Crystal (Branded crystal)
*Summoning Undead Tendril (Risen Tendril)
*Summoning Risen Asura (self-explanatory)
*Teeth of Primordus (Dragon's Tooth-esque skill - a fiery rock spike from the sky)
*Teeth of Jormag (a mixture of ice and rock spikes from the ground)
*Teeth of Mordremoth (a row of earth spikes)

The first three are used in every path, while the first three are used only in 2 paths each in a very specific manner (more on this later).

Now, of the three paths, you fight a major legendary boss before the third time fighting Subject Alpha - these foes are Evolved Destroyer, Evolved Husk, and Bjarl the Rampager (an icebrood).

The Evolved Destroyer uses a skill "Tooth of Primordus" - and in the path that leads to it, Subject Alpha does not use Teeth of Primordus.
Bjarl the Rampager uses the Teeth of Jormag skill - and in that path, Subject Alpha does not use it.
The Evolved Husk, as far as I know (I didn't think of checking) does not use a Mordremoth skill, however during that path Subject Alpha does not use Teeth of Mordremoth.

Seeing the connection yet? Let's continue.

Nightmare Court's influence (and not)
The Evolved Husk is, to put it simply, a powerful Summoned Husk - giant plant creatures seen only with the Nightmare Court outside CoE. Along with the Evolved Husk, there are Summoned Husks, Burning Husks, Nightmare Hounds, and Volatile Blossoms in this portion of CoE (similarly, outside CoE in same corner of the Infinity Coil Reactor, at the PoI Zone Green, there are Volatile Blossoms again) - all of which are found in relation to the Nightmare Court outside CoE. This fact has led quite a few folks to further their thoughts of "Pale Tree=Elder Dragon/dragon champion" - I'd like to state here and now, I do not believe this is so, and I feel I can almost disprove this notion. Here is why:

Firstly, on the Husks:
During the meta event in Wychmire Swamp, aptly named The Battle for Wychmire Swamp, the meta event begins with a Warden, Gamarien, who states "I'm scouting Wychmire Swamp for Nightmare Court activity, though I fear an even darker force is at work. I worry these summoned husks are harbingers of a greater foe." And while there are two Nightmare Courtiers met during the first event of the chain, they indeed hold no other influence over the meta. This meta focuses on fighting "Blighted Husks" and "Blighted Grubs" ending with a battle with a giant jungle wurm (fun fact: jungle wurms are also called Nightmare Vines in Twilight Arbor, this combined with their appears implies they're plants, not wurms).

This indicates that there's a second source of these Husks other than Nightmare Court.

On Nightmare Hounds specifically, there is mention in the Town of Cathal in Caledon Forest (marked by a waypoint) that "It's more than just their heart that is tainted by nightmare. Their very bodies shift into something darker and more malevolent." when asked about trying to heal the Nightmare Court's Thorn Hounds.

As things stand, this is all evidence that would state the Nightmare Court at the very least is tied to this Mordremoth. And I'd agree, but not go so far as to say the Pale Tree. Because there are things unrelated to the sylvari who are corrupted by what I'll dub the "Blighted" (as that's the naming system given in the Wychmire Swamp meta).

In Ogham Wilds of Caledon Forest, there is an event where Nightmare Courtiers are attempting to corrupt some Mosshearts - and they may succeed, if so we're tasked in killing them. The thing to note is that these Mosshearts hold the same appearance as the Nightmare Tree fought in Twilight Arbor explorable, though much smaller and mobile. One thing to note is that while sylvan hounds (aka thorn/nightmare hounds) coincide with sylvari, the treants (mosshearts, oakhearts, pinesouls, and willowhearts) do not - they predate sylvari. Yet they can be corrupted in the same manner.

The Dream of Dreams vs. the Nightmare
By lore, the very origin of the nightmare comes from the Dream of Dreams. To use The Movement of the World's wording:
"But the Dream of Dreams also contains nightmares—hidden whispers behind the voices of their fellow Sylvari. They do not understand what it means—but the Sylvari have yet to experience much of the world around them."

From what I remember - and unfortunately I'm not certain of the source - the first sylvari to fall to nightmare was Faolain (though it was Cadyern who created the Nightmare Court later). This occured in Orr when Faolain and Caithe saw the horrors there, and when Caithe turned away from it (the nightmare) Faolain went towards it. Though to me this doesn't make as much sense in of itself - but this does tell a striking simility to Jora and Svanir, if one were to replace Jora with Caithe, Svanir with Faolain, and Drakkar with the nightmare.

Make of it what you will. I make of it as the nightmare originating from an Elder Dragon - thus the Elder Dragon is corrupting through the Dream of Dreams. (I doubt there's going to be much disagreement on this).

Mordremoth's corruption
Given all of the examples above, this shows the corruption method of Mordremoth (I'll just be using this as the otherwiseu named Sixth Elder Dragon). With some rare exceptions, these "Blighted" are all plants. These exceptions being the few grubs seen in the Wychmire Swamp meta (and possibly those "Corrupted Grub"s found in Ogham Wilds near the Mosshearts mentioned above), jungle wurms, and the Nightmare Court's spiders.

Now on the spiders, this may simply be a case of the NC taming them like any run of the mill ranger. And that's my personal supicion.

And on the jungle wurms - as mentioned before, the same exact model is called a vine - indicating these "wurms" are in fact plants. Their models would concur with this. The question comes in their eggs as there's a heart in Metrica Province dealing with Jungle Wurm Eggs. My only guess would be that these are a peculiar kind of plant.

This would indicate that with the rare exception of creatures tied greatly with plantlife, Mordremoth only corrupts plants. Just as Primordus only twists rock and lava, and Zhaitan's minions are all undead, and Jormag corrupts mentally and by promising power, Mordremoth has his own peculiar corrupting methods.

What's interesting to note is that the Nightmare Court hold a similar fanaticism for the nightmare as Elder Dragon minions. Though with a twist of sadism mixed in.

The issue of sylvari being immune to corruption
There's a perplexity in all of this, however, and that's the Nightmare Court themselves. Sylvari are immune to all Elder Dragons' corruption - or at least they are to Jormag's, Zhaitan's, Primordus' (obviously), and Kralkatorrik's corruption. They simply die instead of being corrupted (in Jormag and Kralkatorrik's case, as Zhaitan and Primordus doesn't corrupt living beings - just dead ones and none respectively). Thus, this makes little sense why the Nightmare Court would be minions of Mordremoth. One would think any sylvari Mordremoth tries to corrupt would die.


But there are a few possibilities with this:

Firstly, this immunity may be physical immunity only, not mental. As one may note, Nightmare Courtiers can very easily pass as normal sylvari by appearance alone. Some of the generic models are darker toned, but the unique ones are just as bright as anyone else - this was likely done so that NC NPCs can be easily picked out (similar to how it's easy to spot a Son of Svanir or Flame Legion charr - all of which have peculiar dying appearances, e.g., many Flame Legion NPCs which aren't glowing with fire are usually white stripped orange furred). If the immunity is only physical, then a corruption that is solely and purely mental would work around it - counter-argument is Jormag's corruption is mental - counter-counter-argument is that icebrood still are, well, made of ice eventually.

Second possibility, and most likely, is that the Nightmare Courtiers are not being corrupted - instead, they're spreading it. Similar to the Sons of Svanir - they are not corrupted by Jormag, but influenced by him and nonetheless are capable of spreading his corruption despite not being made of ice. Counter-argument could be that channeling corruption still corrupts, just slower; counter-counter-argument would be that since each Elder Dragon corrupts differently, this may not be the case for Mordremoth.

Third possibility is as an NPC in the game (forget where) believes - the other Elder Dragons don't know enough of sylvari physiology to corrupt them, but in this case Mordremoth, having a connection to the Dream of Dreams, does.

Side note:
The main reason why I don't affiliate the Pale Tree with this all is threefold:
1. Malyck shows no signs of being like the Nightmare Court which, by definition of the Pale Tree being a dragon champion turned good like the all-too-common hypothesis claims, would be the "natural sylvari."
2. While I believe the Dream of Dreams is being used by Mordremoth to spread his corruption, the White Stag proves that the Dream of Dreams is not unique to sylvari, and Malyck proves that not all sylvari are tied to the Dream of Dreams.
3. There are too many things not tied to the Pale Tree being corrupted (spiders, wurms, treants, grubs).

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#2 Steadfast Gao Shun

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:17 AM

In sum: I think you're onto something with Mordremore (who shall be henceforth referred to as Mordy in my posts) & its relation to the Nightmare Court, but unfortunately, like all good theorycrafting, we need more lore released to us players.

The dragon you see in the Sylvari character creation - there are some who make the interpretation that this is Mordremoth, rather than Zhaitan. Datamining by some Asian/Oceanic players did find something in reference to it, so I think we can pretty much confirm your theory in that one of the yet-to-be-revealed elder dragon is Mordremoth, or at least, something very powerful enough to be a contender in the world of Tyria.

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This would indicate that with the rare exception of creatures tied greatly with plantlife, Mordremoth only corrupts plants. Just as Primordus only twists rock and lava, and Zhaitan's minions are all undead, and Jormag corrupts mentally and by promising power, Mordremoth has his own peculiar corrupting methods.


But could it be possible that the Elder dragons' powers are tied not necessarily to their being, but rather, the manifestation of a particular "set" of abilities is due to circumstance? I.E. Instead of defined elements - Jormag HAS to be ice, Zhaitan HAS to be undead, etc - but instead, you have 6+ very powerful, highly intelligent beings, who are capable of "corrupting" (turning things into things that are like them) and decided that it was the optimal use of the resources available to them at that location. Before Zhaitan rose, for instance, there was already a sizable amount of undead in the area. Khilbron's spell created more, to the point where they're actively invading Kryta as per the events of Prophecies.

So if Jormag spawned below Orr, for instance, he'd probably use the dead there as well is what I'm suggesting. Thus, Mordremoth's corruption isn't that he explicitly targets plants, but rather the location (especially considering that that's where the druids once operated, too) is conductive to him/her using plant matter to achieve whatever his purpose may be.

Of course, the theory goes out of the window if you think that the source of these "powers" are derived directly from the dragons themselves. E.G. Druids had magic because of Mordy, undead hung around Orr because there was a sleeping Zhaitan, etc.

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Now on the spiders, this may simply be a case of the NC taming them like any run of the mill ranger. And that's my personal supicion.


See above. I think it's entirely realistic for an elder dragon to take what resources are available. If I had large spiders, I'd use them too.

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hey simply die instead of being corrupted (in Jormag and Kralkatorrik's case, as Zhaitan and Primordus doesn't corrupt living beings - just dead ones and none respectively). Thus, this makes little sense why the Nightmare Court would be minions of Mordremoth. One would think any sylvari Mordremoth tries to corrupt would die.


There's evidence that Primordus does corrupt in some way - for instance, the Destroyer Broodmothers you encounter almost has to be from corruption of something already pregnant with child, as it's bee mentioned by multiple sources (Durmand Priory scholars, Whispers Agents, Skritt) Destroyers cannot breed otherwise.

I'd argue that Primordus cannot corrupt stone, which is why the dorfs decided that collectively, turning to rock was a good idea to fight their arch-enemy.


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Pale tree stuff

How much of what Sylvari lore tells about the founding of the Pale Tree do you believe to be correct? If the legend about how the pale tree came about is truthful, then we have to consider its origins. Ronan could have gotten that seed from anywhere, so the growth of the pale tree can either be tied to its intrinsic property or the simple fact that it just so happened to have been planted in a magically rich area/whatever you want to interpret in context of the Sanctuary.

In other words - we don't know anything about centaur magic - but if the trees are Mordy's "lieutenants", then we got lucky with the Sylvari and the Pale Tree is simply an uncorrupted variant of what it should've been.

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Nightmare Court stuff

I think I personally prefer your second interpretation, with the addendum that the Nightmare's Court's goal is to turn Sylvari society in a Sylvari-centric society (drawing parallels to the Dark Eldar in WH40k). Thus, the fact that they use Husks and other Nightmare constructs is their a means towards an end, and for all we know the Nightmare within the Dream of Dreams could be something that is something that is simply reflective of the real world, which would obviously mirror the fact that there is evil in it. If they are acting as the minion of an unknown Elder dragon, (going out on a limb for a sec to say that Mordy is the Nightmare) the vast majority is likely unaware of the fact that they are serving a dragon, which would make things all the more interesting if your analysis is revealed to be true.

The Nightmare folks in TA explorable seem to be intent on creating a Nightmare Tree, Whether or not this could be a manifestation of Mordy's intent remains to be seen. But at the same time, the Nightmare Court wishes to fight the dragons, too - at least, that is what they claim.

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Third possibility is as an NPC in the game (forget where) believes - the other Elder Dragons don't know enough of sylvari physiology to corrupt them, but in this case Mordremoth, having a connection to the Dream of Dreams, does.


Warden in Queesdale/Kessex hill (area where you have to carry water to make them not sick), I think. There's also a Pact NPC who mentions this in one of those quests (Something of the Something. Gold Portrait. I think he's Vigil. I call him Legolas Brownleaf in my head.)

Edited by Steadfast Gao Shun, 05 December 2012 - 04:45 AM.


#3 brokerib

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:50 AM

Some good stuff there OP.

Just a couple of thoughts to expand on your idea.

As the teeth of Mordremoth is an earth based attack, and assuming that the 6th dragon conforms to the other Dragon's in having an aspect, it would be reasonable to expect it's corruption to be associated with things of the earth, and for its corruption to come from the earth.

Plants are obviously tethered and reliant on the earth for survival (including treants and such), the jungle wyrms and grubs are tunnelling creatures (as opposed to the idea of all of them being plants/plant-hybrids), etc, which would explain their susceptibility.

So to take this a step further (and into the realms of pure theory):
The dream of dreams would appear to be the dreams of the earth/planet/gaia (fairly common fantasy trope) and if so may be reflecting the corruption of the earth caused by Mordremoth in the form of the nightmare.

Additionally the pale tree, as a plant, could also be subject to this corruption through both its connection to the dream and its connection to the earth.

The Sylvari, who are not strictly plants nor tied to the earth, are still connected to the earth through their time in the pods and their association with the dream.  So the Sylvari are not corrupted as other plant/earth creatures are, but are not immune to the corruption in the same way they are to the other dragons (if you could call dying an immunity...).

The nightmare court in that case would not be minions as such (as stated), but instead have been influenced by the corruption of the earth in-utero (in-plantero?) and continue to be influenced through their connection to the dream.

TLDR:
The pale tree is not a servant of the dragons, but is instead particularly susceptible to Moredremoth's form of corruption, which permeates the earth and afflicts living things associated with the earth (plants/tunnelling creates/etc) including the dream of dreams (which are the dreams of the planet). The Sylvari, because of their connection to the tree, the earth, and the dream, are being influenced (but not controlled) by the corruption.

#4 Kurosov

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:11 AM

If they do introduce an elder dragon that corrupts plantlife i'd say that alone would be a good explanation of why the other elder dragons cannot corrupt sylvari. They mimic humans but are still plantlife.

That would make the "elder dragons don't know enough about sylvari physiology" a partial truth.

The only real issue with it is that kralk did corrupt some plantlife in the brand. although it could be argued those plants are no longer alive.

#5 Daenerys

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:19 AM

I started realizing exactly where you were going this just a couple paragraphs in. Ahh! So exciting!

As I was reading this, I was realizing that the entire process of corruption is something of an obscurity. Assuming your theories are correct, that he "corrupts" Sylvari like Jormag "corrupts" Sons of Svanir, then it would sort of shuffle around what we think corruption is.

Personally I do think that Mordy is influencing the nightmare and possibly making the nightmare what it is. Depending on the actual definition of corruption (which is an entirely separate topic that does at least come into play here), it's possible that Mordremoth is "corrupting" Sylvari via the dream. First, you would have to completely define what the Dream means to Sylvari. Obviously it's cultural, but is it biological? Malyck proves or at least strongly implies that it's simply an odd occurrence in one specific wing of Sylvari culture as he is a Sylvari and but has no experience with the Dream. However that provides a slight issue which someone other than me can probably bulldoze through: does that mean that (following the theories in the original post) Sylvari are only capable of being corrupted if they have the Dream? Is Malyck truly immune to corruption? Doubtful, but food for thought.

Basically, the dream is how Sylvari know roughly what to do. In some cases, it's how they are told what to do in their life, correct? Obviously, the Wyld Hunt. Perhaps the dragon seen in the Sylvari intro doesn't represent one dragon but the threat of the dragons as a whole. Or, it was misinterpreted by the Sylvari themselves to be Zhaitan, who is actively and obviously a threat to them, but was originally meant to represent Mordremoth as a sort of forewarning that he is in existence but isn't completely and totally present.

I find the Maguuma Wastes to be an interesting oddity in Tyria. They used to be jungle, but all of a sudden within the past 250 years, they are, well, wastes. I believe I brought that up on a thread a while back, how possibly that's where Mordy was asleep or something. It doesn't match up with the corruption we see now, though, as the Maguuma Wastes appear to be drier and such. I would think that if the Wastes were corrupted by Mordy, the Nightmare Court should be huskier. Although, oh wait, husks...

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#6 Steadfast Gao Shun

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:35 AM

It cannot be entirely biological - because we would not be able to explain the Soundless in that regard. It makes no sense from a dev bio pov for you to lose access to an important and useful aspect of your development. So if anything, they cannot (read: shouldn't be able to) just shut off something like that (at least, if we assume that Tyrian organisms operate using similar neurochemistry as earth-based organisms). Nor would we be able to consistently explain the purpose of the Sylvari, which - for all intent and purposes - do seem viewed by the vast majority of the Sylvari themselves - to be Tyria's "immune" system, which is to fight the Elder dragons.

Even the Nightmare Court wants to fight the Elder Dragons. They just think their way is best. From interactions with the Nightmare Court NPCs, I get less "corrupted and doing dragon bidding mwahahaha" and more "MOTHER WHY WILL YOU NOT LOVE ME? YOU'RE GOING TO - LOVE ME -".

Because, if they are doing the bidding of the dragon, then something doesn't really measure up. Zhaitan needs to nom artifacts. Ergo, hordes of undead bring him artifacts. Unless the Nightmare Court's thing for pain and torture is actively ... I dunno, channeling ambient magic from the school of denial or aggression or something, I don't see how that would accomplish one of the elder dragon's primary motivations (e.g. me hungry me want food. ;- ;), which would punch a hole in the whole Nightmare Court being minions of a dragon theory.

Edited by Steadfast Gao Shun, 05 December 2012 - 05:38 AM.


#7 draxynnic

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:17 AM

One thought that comes to mind while discussing Mordy...

Apart from the apparent vector of corruption (and I'm inclined to agree with the theory that he corrupts things closely tied to the earth, not plants specifically) what distinguishes Mordy from the other dragons?

The other dragons are known to be awake. Four, we know. The Deep Sea Dragon we haven't had any direct contact with, but we have a pretty good idea that there's something forcing various races out of the Deeps. Mordremoth, however, as far as we know, is still sleeping... so perhaps this is why he's making his mark on the dream world more than the physical one.

When it comes to the question of how the Nightmare Court serves Mordremoth, I suspect it might be similar to what Snaff did to Kralkatorrik. Snaff inserted his mind into the dragon's and then became everything the dragon wasn't, everything the dragon couldn't be... and if the dragon couldn't have that itself, it was determined to extinguish the annoying thing that reminds it of what it itself could never have or understand. If Mordremoth is touching or otherwise perceiving the Dream, it might similarly want to either destroy the Dream or make the Dream like itself... and the latter is exactly what the Nightmare Court is seeking to do.

In fact, thinking along these lines, what if that is actually the overall purpose of the Dream? It's what Snaff did to Kralkatorrik on a larger scale, imprisoning Mordremoth's mind within a Realm of Serenity that prevents him from awakening. If that's the case, then it would give Mordremoth a very clear motivation for wanting to corrupt the Dream - if he can bring the Dream under his control and make it like he is, that might be the key to the lock that prevents him from awakening. Which would, in turn, imply that the Pale Tree has become his jailor.

If so, that would suggest that the sylvari are right - their purpose truly is to fight the Elder Dragons. Or, at least, a specific one.

Edited by draxynnic, 05 December 2012 - 06:19 AM.

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#8 Sword Hammer Axe

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:53 AM

Still not completely sure if Mordremorth is just your personal name or a fangiven name in general. From what you write it sounds like you just came up with it by yourself. I for one find the name unsatisfactory and will refer to it as Petunia from now on!

#9 BuddhaKeks

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:24 PM

The name comes from an attack the Subject Alpha uses, as it's stated in the OP.

Edited by BuddhaKeks, 05 December 2012 - 04:24 PM.


#10 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:44 PM

@Steadfast Gao Shun:
I wouldn't really trust datamining outright - the gw.dat (for both games, silly anet naming both files the same) will contain information that not only hasn't made it into the game yet, as well as ever, but also information that got changed into something else. So the original ide may have been to put the sylvari tutorial dragon as Mordremoth's champ, but the idea got scrapped in favor of being a vision of Zhaitan.

As to ED powers - I can both agree and disagree. It's fairly clear that, whether they want to or not, they corrupt in a certain matter. What they corrupt may be related to what's available to them, but not their end-appearance. Each Elder Dragon seems "genetically" (for lack of a better word) tied to an element - from what we know/can guess, it's Fire, Ice, Rot, Water, Crystal, and Plant (note: I say rot instead of undeath because of Zone Black being swampy, which induces rot, and furthermore because of Explorer Hekja from Estate of Decay personal storyline - she dies but isn't dead for even five minutes before we see her in her risen form, totally rotten, way too fast to be natural). Primordus using lava or Zhaitan using undead being a case of "what's available" makes sense, but why do Jormag's minions all turn into ice? Where do the crystals from Kralkatorrik come from (answer:nothing)? And why does Zhaitan only corrupt corpses and never living beings? Reason must be: 'because they can't/don't want to.'

So while Mordremoth may not be limited to plants, as what's corrupted may be related only to what the Nightmare Court affiliates with (hint: plants!), but given our current amount of information I'm believing he's limited to plants and plant-related beings.

What's certainly confirmed is that each Elder Dragon has their own preference/limitation on how they corrupt - Zhaitan radiates his corrupting magic, Jormag uses mind breaks (more or less), Kralkatorrik twists physically, etc. Mordremoth's seems to be via torment - that's how the NC twists their related creatures, through inflicting pain. So I guess one can say Mordremoth is the Elder Pain Dragon. :P

I don't think that druids are related to Mordremoth.

As to Primordus: While I haven't done the skritt storyline yet (it's up next on my sylvari), from what I gather these things were not corrupted living beings either. Take note of Edge of Destiny novel - destroyers are being spawned by other destroyers in, for lack of a better word, spawning pools of lava. Destroyers certainly reproduce - the skritt storyline, from my interpretation on second-hand knowledge, is simply that they found a new means to reproduce (note: I am using reproduce in the meaning of "make more of themselves" and not standard biological procreation).

On pale tree: We know plenty of centaur magic, actually. It's all earth based - as is centaur culture. But irregardless of what's true or not in the sylvari creation story (given the number of consistencies and the lack of inconsistencies in the story, I'm inclined to say everything we're told is truth), given the presence of Malyck's tree and the fact that nothing special was done to the Pale Tree, I do not think the patch of seeds found by Ronan is related to Mordremoth.

Instead, I'd argue that they're tied to treants (to a normal person, a group of mosshearts can easily appear as monstrous plant creatures - as can, truth be told, any number of GW1 plant creatures which seemed to have died out between the two games). Further, I'd argue that the Pale Tree's development may be unique, but her species may not be - we have plant creatures across the world, some of them mimic other races and species (plants in Cantha, for instance, resemble drakes more or less; and there's stalkers which are fairly humanoid in appearance as well); there's also a huge number of sentient trees (far less excluding treants) as well as magical trees (Ancestor Trees from centaur lore in Elona, for instance - these have very similar properties to that one tree which became flourished when a sylvari died at its base in eastern Brisban Wildlands and began bearing magical fruit all year long). In short, when you look at the whole of plants in the GW universe, the only oddity the sylvari presents is how interactive with other sentient beings they are.

As to the NC's goal - I cannot disagree. That seems highly likely, especially the concept that they're unaware they're serving an ED. As to them claiming they want to fight Elder Dragons too - it's an interesting observation to note that they're never seen fighting ED minions, and are in league with a group (Inquest) who are utilizing ED energies. And this isn't even the only thing where the NC's words contradict their actions.

@brokerib:
Thing to note about Alpha's skills is that even the Teeth of Jormag utilizes earth; and Primordus is called the "rock dragon" by some (particularly skritt). So I'd be inclined to think that many Elder Dragons hold a tie to the world they're on - e.g., the ground. They just utilize it alongside other things.

An interesting take on the sylvari's relation to the corruption - and I agree on the part of the Pale Tree (This is one of the NC's main goals after all) - but an issue: treants are no different from sylvari in their ties to the earth, being mobile plants and all, yet are also easily corrupted (if that is indeed corruption).

@Kurosov:
The Dragonbrand would actually be, imo, the strongest point of argument against the whole "the Elder Dragons don't know enough about them" bit - and considering the description of them in GoA is that they're all pure crystals and unmoving, it could easily be argued that they are, indeed, no longer alive. Though there's an issue in this: In Blazeridge Steppes there's a type of plant that attacks (forgot its name), so not all plants died in the Dragonbrand.

@Mockingjay74: Malyck being potentially completely immune to Mordremoth is an interesting point. It very well may be that Mordremoth can only corrupt sylvari - without killing them that is - via the Dream of Dreams. But given that the Nightmare Court seems to spread this corruption via torture, this may not be so.

Until we see more sylvari from Malyck's tree, it's a rather up-in-the-air thing.

As to the Maguuma Wastes, I'm more inclined to blame Primordus for that. Or, alternatively, it's due to the weakening of the bloodstone there. Keep in mind that the higher altitude parts of the Maguuma Jungle on a whole was already arid - just as northwestern Brisban Wildlands is. The Maguuma was a jungle only in the canyons and lower parts - where water congregated, obviously, but if that water were to dry up... you get wastes. Now take note that the Maguuma Water was magical, and suspected to be so due to the bloodstone's presence. Therefore, if the bloodstone weakened, then so too would the water's properties - and thus even if it remains, there'd be less vegitation due to less healing from the water. The issue with this theory comes with: what was the Maguuma Jungle area before the bloodstone landed there? Was it still a jungle, or was it a wasteland?

@Steadfast Gao Shun: So to your the Nightmare Court comes off as a bunch of Fluttershies that don't get love from their animals (pale tree)? :P

As to doing a dragon's bidding - not all risen collect artifacts, many in fact just swarm to kill then conscript the bodies to expand the army. Same with other dragon minions (even branded): they all focus on making more minions, along with doing some other things (risen: collect magic artifacts; SoS/icebrood: devour powerful things (artifacts/spirits); branded: head south/southeast; destroyers:kill crush destroy maim). So the NC are fulfilling the main part of what a dragon minion does. Though they may not be corrupted enough (or can be corrupted enough) to do anything else - especially if this influence is less direct than other ED.

The more I think of it, the more Mordremoth is coming off to me as an Elder Dragon who bides his time in doing things. As opposed to the kind who sends champions to wipe the world of life before he himself awakes, or goes flying across a nation just to kill a traitor, or force people off his newly claimed land.

@draxynnic:
That point kind of goes back to my old persona of the Elder Dragons thread. They all seem to seek different things, and based off of EoD I'm inclined that Kralkatorrik is seeking to obtain everything (which can be either viewed as greed or desire of perfection) - the other Elder Dragons seem to want other things (Zhaitan's risen often speak of immortality; Jormag's minions speak of power; Primordus' minions never speak, but only kill and as their names imply, destroy).

Given the little we know of Mordremoth, I'm inclined to think he's wanting to spread pain and torture. Not only because it's how he seems to corrupt, but because that's the true mentality of the Nightmare Court, and because the most obvious show of his power is through the condition poison (poison is highly common in Twilight Arbor, in Zone Green, and in Experimental Lab Green in CoE). Poison inflicts long lasting pain until death (if death comes as not all poisons kill), and can metaphorically be said to choke life itself. This is what I think Mordremoth wants - e.g. he's the personification of sadism.

@Sword Hammer Axe:
Mordremoth comes directly from the game as a name of a skill Alpha uses - if you open the chat box and press the combat tab (unless you removed it), it shows you the skills you were hit by. Most NPCs use generic name skills like "Shout" "Punch" "Kick" etc. but some are uniquely named. Teeth of Mordremoth is one of those skill names.

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#11 Sovick

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:41 PM

This might be completly offtopic

In french mordre means bite and moth is in english... well a moth. So moth and bite...
Moths is considered a pest because of its destruction of fruits and agriculture in its caterpillar state.So moths need plants to develop. the same may be said about mordremoth he needs plants to achieve his goal. Mordre/bite might be the way it corrupts through agony and torture. This is very likely to be completly unrelated, i mean it could also just be a name :D

I also have a question. Does the dragons realy have to be dragons? couldnt it be that mordremoth is insectlike in appearance( maybe look like a moth ;)) and bubbles be some sort of sea monster? I know the other 4 look like dragons in a traditional sence.

Edited by Sovick, 05 December 2012 - 10:42 PM.


#12 Meliai

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:52 PM

If Mordremoth only corrupts plants and earth, it would make sense that he should want to target sentient beings like as the Sylvari.  It makes me wonder if there were ancient Druids that once waged war against him during the last Elder Dragon's awakening.  The Druids are not Mordremoth's minions because they do not corrupt the land; everywhere you go their remnants are surrounded by flowers and flourishing, healthy plant life.  And according the the GW wiki they were human once, so perhaps there are other creatures that became self-appointed deacons of nature to fight against the corruption of Mordremoth.  

On the nature of dragon corruption it isn't yet known for sure if Mordremoth must have access to the Dream in order to corrupt.  I think he is still technically asleep somewhere and the corruption of the Sylvari through Nightmare is simply a symptom of his growing influence, which will fully 'blossom' when he is completely awake.  I also like Konig's ideas about Mordremoth's poison-like influence and the use of tortured metaphors to describe his preferred method of corruption.  Sort of like when a tree is rotting from the inside it slowly changes color and texture and the leaves start to drop off until you're left with a brittle trunk.  I would argue that access to the Dream for corruption is incidental, especially since there are other Sylvari in existence. An Elder dragon should be powerful enough to corrupt any and all Sylvari simply because they are plants as well as any other creatures that are similar.  I would expect to see corrupted Oakhearts and even corrupted Druids in the future. Mordremoth is exerting his power over the earth, as an elemental dragon.

I like to think of the Dream of Dreams as being a window of a sorts, into the goings on of Tyria.  For some reason, not all Sylvari have access to this window, and I would argue that it is a biological peculiarity specific to the Pale Tree and her children.  In order to become Soundless, it would be like gouging out one's own eyes so that you could no longer see.  Perhaps it's not quite so violent an act as this, but if it is not biological in nature then perhaps it is some sort of magical influence that propels the dream to each Sylvari.   There is no evidence for this at present, but one could also speculate that the existence of dream of dreams may be related to the Pale Tree's unique connection with Ventari and possible Ronan.  I don't recall if Ventari was a magic user or not but perhaps his influence has something to do with the Pale Tree's 'clairvoyance'.

Edited by Meliai, 05 December 2012 - 10:54 PM.


#13 Di-Dorval

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:01 PM

Very interesting post OP!

View PostSovick, on 05 December 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

This might be completly offtopic

I also have a question. Does the dragons realy have to be dragons? couldnt it be that mordremoth is insectlike in appearance( maybe look like a moth ;)) and bubbles be some sort of sea monster? I know the other 4 look like dragons in a traditional sence.

Do you? I though we only knew about Primordus and obviously Zaithan appearance (Maybe Krak I can't remember his description in the book and we only see his back/spine in GW1).

#14 Graka

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:05 PM

View PostKonig Des Todes, on 05 December 2012 - 01:57 AM, said:

The issue of sylvari being immune to corruption
There's a perplexity in all of this, however, and that's the Nightmare Court themselves. Sylvari are immune to all Elder Dragons' corruption - or at least they are to Jormag's, Zhaitan's, Primordus' (obviously), and Kralkatorrik's corruption. They simply die instead of being corrupted (in Jormag and Kralkatorrik's case, as Zhaitan and Primordus doesn't corrupt living beings - just dead ones and none respectively). Thus, this makes little sense why the Nightmare Court would be minions of Mordremoth. One would think any sylvari Mordremoth tries to corrupt would die.

While I find the rest of your post quite illuminating, I have to point out an inaccuracy. Primordus does infact corrupt creatures, you discover this during the Vigil Skritt questline, they talk about a destroyer that is laying eggs, and the Vigil mentor mentions that it could be a creature that was corrupted while it was pregnant. Though I do admit maybe the Vigil is wrong in their information, it does seem odd that they think this because of two reasons, how do more destroyers get made, and if they are just made by primordius then why would they think things could be corrupted?


Here is the direct line from the personal story quest The Hatchery:
<Party leader>: Destroyer queen. Dragon minions shouldn't be able to reproduce. How is this possible?
When with the Order of Whispers: Tybalt Leftpaw: We've heard whispers about creatures that were already pregnant when corrupted. Though it could be a new type of minion. Ugh.
When with the Durmand Priory: Magister Sieran: Priory records have documented such creatures. They were pregnant when they were corrupted. Or it might be something new. How exiting!
When with the Vigil: Warmaster Forgal Kernsson: Two possibilities. Could be a creature that was pregnant when she was corrupted. Or this "queen" might be a kind of minion we've never seen before.
<Party leader>: I don't like either option. We have to take this creature out before she makes more eggs.

Edited by Graka, 05 December 2012 - 11:10 PM.


#15 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:59 PM

View PostMeliai, on 05 December 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

-snip-
The druids were Krytan humans, so no they wouldn't have fought against Mordremoth.

As to Mordremoth corrupting via the Dream - I meant that more as that's how he's "corrupting" sylvari, not as that he must have access to the Dream of Dreams to corrupt.

As to the Dream of Dreams' ties to the Pale Tree - i do not think that it's peculiar just to it, and in fact we know this is not the case. Like the Pale Tree, the White Stag exists both within the DoD and within Tyria. I believe that there's something in the Tarnished Coast which allows access to the Dream of Dreams, and the sylvari born to the Pale Tree have access to the Dream of Dreams simply due to the fact the Pale Tree does.

This would also explain why the other sylvari tree seemingly has no influence with the Dream of Dreams, based off of Malyck, as if its locational then the other tree is simply out of the area of effect of whatever causes the connection.

View PostDi-Dorval, on 05 December 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

View PostSovick, on 05 December 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

This might be completly offtopic

I also have a question. Does the dragons realy have to be dragons? couldnt it be that mordremoth is insectlike in appearance( maybe look like a moth ;)) and bubbles be some sort of sea monster? I know the other 4 look like dragons in a traditional sence.
Do you? I though we only knew about Primordus and obviously Zaithan appearance (Maybe Krak I can't remember his description in the book and we only see his back/spine in GW1).
Firstly to Di-Dorval: We see Jormag's silhoute in the norn intro cinematic, and Kralkatorrik's description matches a typical European dragon while still being fairly ambiguous.

@Sovick: An interesting thing to bring up. Based on what we've seen, I would argue that the Elder Dragons are, in fact, not dragons. Rather, I say that they and their strongest minions merely appear closest to a reptile with wings (aka a dragon), but its only a case of resemblance. Take note first the Great Destroyer - while draconic to a degree, it looked more like a turtle with wings and a long draconic neck/head. The Shatterer's structure is more akin to an adult male human with a reptilian head and wings (and altered hind legs and a tail). Zhaitan has 2 large hands, about six pairs of wings, roughly three tails, and no lower torso - hardly what I'd call a dragon.

So I'd say the Elder Dragons are in reality eldritch abominations that simply resemble dragons. So one with insectoid features would not be out of the question - but it's certain that it'd be still resembling a dragon most.

View PostGraka, on 05 December 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

-snip-
I've already addressed this. Though I haven't done it first hand, from what I've been told/read up, nothing proves that Primordus corrupted a living being. Firstly, take note of each mentor's lines. They all begin by stating that it was a creature that was pregnant when corrupted, but all then mention "or it's a new type a minion."

Secondly, I didn't say Primordus can't corrupt living beings, but that he doesn't - and this seems to be quite true, with this one egg-laying destroyer being the sole possible contradiction. Destroyer Trolls are not trolls corrupted, but mimicry of such; Destroyer Harpies are the same. Observe the models close enough and you can tell that it's impossible for them to have been once-living beings. The only one of the three GW2 destroyer models that might prove otherwise would be destroyer crabs given their structure, but even GW1 destroyers don't resemble something that was once living.

Thirdly, take note of the journal entry after completing the mission:
We rescued Tchkik, and investigated the destroyer eggs. It seems that the destroyer was a unique creature - a dragon minion that could create offspring. We have to kill that creature before it lays more eggs.

Furthermore, from GW1 and from Edge of Destiny, we already knew that destroyers can reproduce (though this may not be known to the orders) - this is simply a new method of such. In both GW1 and Edge of Destiny, creation of new destroyers is done in lava pools where they slowly form. Since Primordus' creatures are all mimicries, then one would expect that he'd attempt to mimic how living beings reproduce as well - thus resulting in eggs.

So it's highly likely that the mentor's first guess is wrong - which would not be unlikely - and that their second guess is accurate.

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#16 draxynnic

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:46 AM

Regarding the Destroyers, it strikes me that while in EOTN it looks like the Great Destroyer is simply forming Destroyers fully-formed, it's possible that they did come from laying eggs in the lava, or something that fulfills a similar role to eggs anyway (possibly a nucleus that draws more material from the lava to slowly build a new Destroyer). So an egg-laying Destroyer may not actually be all that new - this is just the first time it's been observed.

View PostMeliai, on 05 December 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

I like to think of the Dream of Dreams as being a window of a sorts, into the goings on of Tyria.  For some reason, not all Sylvari have access to this window, and I would argue that it is a biological peculiarity specific to the Pale Tree and her children.  In order to become Soundless, it would be like gouging out one's own eyes so that you could no longer see.  Perhaps it's not quite so violent an act as this, but if it is not biological in nature then perhaps it is some sort of magical influence that propels the dream to each Sylvari.   There is no evidence for this at present, but one could also speculate that the existence of dream of dreams may be related to the Pale Tree's unique connection with Ventari and possible Ronan.  I don't recall if Ventari was a magic user or not but perhaps his influence has something to do with the Pale Tree's 'clairvoyance'.
The impression I get is that it's more like learning to tune out a sound - through meditation, the Soundless reach a point where they no longer consciously 'hear' the Dream. However, it's not perfect - sometimes the meditation can fail and the Dream can slip through nonetheless.
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#17 Valkaire

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:28 AM

View PostSovick, on 05 December 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

This might be completly offtopic

In french mordre means bite and moth is in english... well a moth. So moth and bite...
Moths is considered a pest because of its destruction of fruits and agriculture in its caterpillar state.So moths need plants to develop. the same may be said about mordremoth he needs plants to achieve his goal. Mordre/bite might be the way it corrupts through agony and torture. This is very likely to be completly unrelated, i mean it could also just be a name :D

I also have a question. Does the dragons realy have to be dragons? couldnt it be that mordremoth is insectlike in appearance( maybe look like a moth ;)) and bubbles be some sort of sea monster? I know the other 4 look like dragons in a traditional sence.

Morde means death in portugese and something similar in German (if I remember correctly, been awhile so I could be wrong). I think that makes a lot more sense than "bite" honestly :P

#18 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:59 AM

Morde is German for murders; Mordre isn't German (afaik).

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#19 draxynnic

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 02:27 AM

It probably all comes from the Latin mort, meaning death.
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#20 brokerib

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 02:36 AM

@ Konig Des Todes

The Promordius attack you mention uses fire as the cause and earth as the medium to create an effect (lava) which I think is an important distinction. Particularly as the Elementalist fire attunement spells have similar properties (dragon's tooth, lava font, etc).  While earth is involved, they are distinctly fire spells.  And to continue the example, there are even spells that make use of fire and other medium, particularly the aquatic spells that combine fire (cause) and water (medium) to achieve an affect (steam/boil).

Primodius and his minions have always been associated with the fires of the earth, not the earth itself, as demonstrated by the destroyers resistance to fire and burning in GW1 and lack of resistance to earth based powers (or stability etc).  The destroyers certainly have an association with the earth, but at the heart of it they're creatures of flame/heat.

On the treants, they remain bonded to the earth for sustenance, including sending attacks through the earth (grasping roots).  The bonding is to the point that they "are known to mash up animals and use the remains as fertiliser for their young" (from the wiki).  If they feed from the earth then their connection to the earth is continuing and unavoidable.

Or basically what I'm saying is I still think that the corruption is through the earth (earth aspected) as opposed to plant based (which wouldn't explain the wyrms and grubs) ;)

One interesting one I found as well, another mention of husks in game.  The physical remains of an arboreal spirit, bonded to the earth.

http://wiki.guildwar..._away_the_hylek

#21 draxynnic

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 03:23 AM

Well, a possible explanation for the worms and grubs is that the corruption can be passed on by feeding (similar to how there is the odd discussion as to how it's better to starve then to eat Risen, or even something that's been eating Risen). So it's possible that grubs can be corrupted by eating corrupted vegetation, and can then corrupt in turn by being eaten by their predators.
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#22 brokerib

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 03:35 AM

....that's a pretty good explanation actually... :P

#23 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 06:37 AM

That actually reminds me... in Sparkfly Fen there's an entire heart based around how fish attacked by risen were washing ashore and being devoured by the local wildlife, which in turn corrupts them and the plantlife in the area - they're not risen themselves, but they're abnormal. The related heart NPC, Ayomichi, calls the animals "corrupted" though they held no physical oddities.

And it matches the state of the grubs (and wurms) pretty well - they don't show any physical changes, much like the wildlife related to the heart above, but they're certainly not acting normal either.

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#24 Steadfast Gao Shun

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 06:51 AM

As usual, it's very fun reading your thought process, Konig. You put a lot of heart and mind into it, and I wouldn't be surprised if a sizable chunk of your predictions come out to be true.

Quote

Elder dragon powers

Context on my interpretations of other elder dragons.

Spoiler

Mordy, then, having awaken near a bunch of hopeful, chivarious Arthurian/Celtic trees, then, naturally adjusts its tactics to optimize against what the Sylvari value the most. In this case, it'd be primarily robbing neighboring civilizations of dreams and hopes through pain and nightmares. I have a personal theory that for those Sylvari who fall into Nightmare, they essentially doom themselves. (we have official lore stating that once they've fully fallen into Nightmare they cannot return from the evil they've chosen. The easiest explanation is that there is a psychological component coupled with biological and magical aspects of it.)

The reason for this is that ... basically, if a mortal got taken over by the three EDs (Purple, Jorlag, and BBQer-of-Rabbits), it is not explicitly stated what happens to that individual's soul. They could be trapped in agony or devoured or whatnot, but there is also the possibility of their souls going into the MIsts, and doing whatever it is souls in the Mists do. Even those corrupted by Zhaitan can hope to be freed some day if they're slain, so in all these situations, the individual has the capacity for hope, and reason to have faith.

Mordy's corruption, then, is unique in context of the Nightmare Court because it removes one's ability to hope and dream through whatever nightmarish torture method it can come up with. The finality of such an action is a sentence of eternal damnation for obvious reasons - after all, hope is the greatest gift the gods gave to humanity, to quote one of my favorite GW1 PCs.

Quote

Pale tree stuff

I think the Asura did mistake Sylvari for basically non-sentient critters at one point (can't blame them, to be honest - if I was vertically challenged and exploring a new area I'd torch anything moving on the spot too), and there's evidence in that they've at least faced Thorn stalkers and other "sentient" plant life before.

I think that interpretation is pretty close, though at this stage, I think we have at least two realistic interpretations that could turn out to be correct.

1. Pale tree is Tyria's defense system against the EDs. Has nothing to do with Mordy. Mordy's ties with the pale tree is in some way a direct way to subvert it (see my analysis above on thematic reasons).
2. Pale tree is basically a good version of Mordy's lieutenant (there will, and still are people on a lot of forums arguing it until proven otherwise), or otherwise will turn bwahaha evil in some expansion pack. I know there is currently a sizable betting pool on one of the GW2 Japanese communities (2ch, specifically) on when Traherp/Saladriel is going to flip out and go evil on us. :P

(For the record the bet pool is currently at ~570 gold or so.)

Quote

Nightmare Court stuff

So, what is the best thing you can do if you yourself are devoid of hope, knowing an eternity of torment await you?

Drag down other people with you, of course. I wouldn't say that they're a bunch of Fluttershies now, but I think for how the first one came about, it definitely feels plausible. Though everytime I read that short story the first image that pops up in my head is Loki, for some reason...

Anyways, if we stop and think about it for a sec, the Nightmare Court's mindset IS pretty messed up, and I can see (off the top of my head) several interpretations, with the truth probably having tiny bits of some or all of what I have below.

-Nightmare Court is like, super noble and stuff (seen mainly by interpretations of what I personally consider to be bad RPers - come to TC at some point. I will show you where the Sylvari Canthan Vampires RP in Divinity's Reach). They want to fight dragons in an unrestrictive way and believe their way is best to do it.
-Nightmare Court is just a bunch of angry Fluttershies wanting recognition from "mother" (serious Freudian issues aside, kind of realistic), and are unwittingly doing the bidding of Mordy by spreading the Nightmare.
-Nightmare Court initially rose out of a movement to rebel, but the inner echelons realizes the gravity of their situation and are at least tokenly aware of Mordy's influence. Each leader is secretly furthering their own goals and ends in a manner unlike that of the Dark Elf houses in Warhammer. The saner ones look for a way out, and the less sane ones are the nutty ones we see torturing people.

I think you're absolutely right in that Mordremoth is something that bides its time. Whether it's an elder dragon or just a powerful force (something like Urgoz, for instance) remains to be seen. :P

Edited by Steadfast Gao Shun, 06 December 2012 - 06:58 AM.


#25 draxynnic

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 06:57 AM

View PostSteadfast Gao Shun, on 06 December 2012 - 06:51 AM, said:

1. Pale tree is Tyria's defense system against the EDs. Has nothing to do with Mordy. Mordy's ties with the pale tree is in some way a direct way to subvert it (see my analysis above on thematic reasons).
Well, if my theory is correct, it could be both. Pale Trees and sylvari in general may be part of the defence system, but something about our Pale Tree in particular made it suitable to become the guardian of Mordy's prison as Mordy started to stir.
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#26 BuddhaKeks

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:24 PM

View PostKonig Des Todes, on 06 December 2012 - 01:59 AM, said:

Morde is German for murders; Mordre isn't German (afaik).

Confirmed ;)

The whole name sounds more romanic than germanic to me. The "moth" part reminds me of the word behemoth, which would be fitting, since they are huge monsters, often related to earth, like this dragon could be.

#27 duncanmix

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 06:22 PM

Tamer Chyde npc at the end of Caledon forest puzzle say that Nightmare court kidnaps spiders and other animals and torture them into their way. Once their turned he cant reverse process.

#28 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 07:41 PM

@Steadfast Gao Shun:
That's an interesting perspective on the Elder Dragons, however I believe it fails to take into consideration the personalities of the Elder Dragons and their minions. Where does Jormag and his minions' claim of power (both seeking and having) come into the idea of using an element nearby civilizations cannot compete against? Or what about how risen speak about how Zhaitan is the path to true immortality or that they believe *we* are poisoning the land by removing Zhaitan's influence? Where does the branded's intense fanaticism for following and obeying Kralkatorrik, and Kralkatorrik's own thought process of "if I can't have it, no one can" come into play?

I think they're more than simply personifications of civilizations' end - or rather, I think the fact they bring ends to civilizations is just a by-product.

And I believe your interpretation of the Dragonbrand is somewhat false. True, you cannot grow edible things there (but then again, Elder Dragons don't need to feed in the traditional sense so they may not even consider the possibility that beings need to eat food). However, the Dragonbrand *is* growing - not just expanding in size, but the plants still grow and the water still flows. So there is change, growth, and so forth in the Dragonbrand - it's just all crystallized.

As to corruption and souls - Jormag and the icebrood seem to find souls to be quite the delicacy, however icebrood retain their personality (if corrupted willingly, based on the Sons of Svanir and a couple kodan icebrood) or at least do to a degree, so I would argue that they retain their soul (though that depends on where the mind ends and the soul begins, assuming they're not one in the same); Kralkatorrik on the other hand seems incapable or unwilling to corrupt souls - as shown by the fact the Foefire ghosts were untouched by the Dragonbrand's creation - and thus indicates that they are unaffected in the whole.

As to Mordremoth's methods being about removing hope... I can't agree with that. The Nightmare Court is anything but pessimistic or surrendered. They hold hope too. So if they're being tainted by Mordremoth who would remove hope, then that would mean the Nightmare Court are completely and fully untouched by him.


Asura mistook sylvari for new plantlife when they were brand new - so only 25 or so years prior to GW2 (iirc, it was said Kudu was among those who experimented on Melomadies).

And I'd say three realistic possibilities, considering Malyck holds no knowledge of the Elder Dragons until after you tell him about them. That they're just a natural (or magical) evolution of plant-beings.

As to the Nightmare Court's mindset, I view it as thus:

The Nightmare Court was founded with the intention of freeing the Pale Tree from the restrictions of the Ventari Tablet - effectively to have the sylvari establish themselves rather than follow the guidelines of other beings. To learn from one's own actions and mistakes if you will. To do this they went to the Nightmare, the antecedent of the Ventari Tablet, to balance things out.

However, as shown by Cadeyrn's mindset in the blog post, something went awry and when he went to Nightmare, the purpose changed. It stopped being about being one's true self, but instead being cruel and malicious. But they still cover it with the sweet lies and hopes of their original concept - and some even hold true onto those ideals despite being of the Nightmare Court (Gavin from the White Stag storyline, for instance, is not evil and does not seek unnecessary bloodshed - even going so far as to stop another courtier from doing so in order to end things with less bloodshed via an honorable 1 on 1 duel - winner takes claim of the White Stag, loser dies - he is very much *not* your typical Nightmare Court). This is furthered from the same storyline's step "Discovering Darkness" in which Nightmare Court recruiters preach about how the NC are seeking to discover all aspects of the Dream of Dreams - both light and dark - and not stick to just one side (obviously false as one can observe).

They say one thing and do the opposite while believing that they're in the right.

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#29 Steadfast Gao Shun

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 08:53 PM

Spoiler

Mordy: I think we can then agree to disagree. ;) Bear in mind that in its current stage, we don't have nearly enough information to really go off of and make any sort of solid prediction. I would argue that self-destructive behavior, psychological profiling and lack of concrete goals are pretty strongly correlated with individuals feeling hopeless and are acutely suffering. They torture people and make others miserable because they have no realistic alternative to derive pleasure. Individuals who are suffering on the inside frequently wish to make others suffer alongside them, and I would go on to argue that many of the masques the NC NPCs put on cracks pretty harshly once they're made to see themselves in the mirror.

I agree with your assessment of the "lack" of Taint on the NC because I would explain it as such. The paradigm of torture and sadism and etc wasn't quite what Mordred Cadyern had in mind at first, but rather, was a precedent set by the "inner" circle of the Nightmare Court, who managed to mire themselves into the cycle of hopelessness as I have described. I would further argue that the many of the NC met in the game are low-ranking members, not fully induced into their ranks, and thus, shows an interesting spectrum.

In other words, regardless of what the NC started out as, it is very different from what Cadyern had envisioned at first. Would you agree with that assessment? I think the lack of recognition of the possibility of a transition is at least why I've seen a lot of RPers trying to play Nightmare Court sylvari in DR.

Here's what I think would be interesting to consider. Let us assume that Mordy is an ED. How did the Inquest find out? Better yet, how did they know it well enough to be actively pilfering bodyparts from it in order to construct a minion out of it?

/tinfoil hat... If anything, maybe Mordy's REAL minions are the Inquest. And he's secretly plotting to let the other 5 eat the magic, and then eat the other 5 himself. ;)

EDIT: On the Destroyers: I was flipping through EoD, and Caithe mentioned that they're made from the "molten heart" of its master. So you might be onto something about those being constructs.

Edited by Steadfast Gao Shun, 06 December 2012 - 10:07 PM.


#30 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 05:12 AM

View PostSteadfast Gao Shun, on 06 December 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

-snip-
I wasn't referring to their personalities in relation to their powers, but rather in relation to their actions and motivations. If they sought to destroy civilization, then why give promises of power, immortality, or seek to obtain? If all they wanted was to end civilization, then they need not such complex actions - they could all be like how Primordus is currently portrayed to be (but primarily due to the lack of talking destroyers).

Jormag promises power to anyone willing to accept it (two skill challenges reflect this - same dialogue for all races; then there's the jotun, grawl, quaggan (I think), and kodan who also exhibit this), not just norn (norn are just the majority since they are the closest to him). Zhaitan doesn't seem to exploit the fear of mortality to me, but rather is attempting to remove it. He forcefully corrupts, so there's no promising immortality and all his minions exhibited death but were brought back by him (Zhaitan seemingly stole Orrian souls in reanimating those corpses - per the Cathedral of Silence storyline - though this may be simply meaning that the soul never reached its destination, rather than was called from the Mists). This hardly sounds like exploiting a fear to me, but rather forcefully removing it - little different than a drug that alters one's mentality forced upon them when looking at it from a more basic standpoint.

Kralkatorrik's sense of "if I can't have it no one can" comes from the description of his mind - well, I went into enough details in the aforelinked Personas of the Elder Dragons thread. I don't think we should derail this thread further to repeat something that's elsewhere. Though I think Snaff did figure out Kralk's mentality enough, considering he became the mind's opposite and learned to control Kralk's body. He was, as Zojja will remind you at every chance she gets and then some, a genius after all.

On the Dragonbrand: But that's all because the branded are hostile. Remove that hostility, and yes you can live there - the only issue is food supply, but if there's no need for food (like for the branded) then there's no problems. By your very reasoning, I can argue that what Kralkatorrik wants isn't an end to civilization, but a civilization without need of food. That he's trying to recreate civilization, not destroy it entirely.

On Mordremoth: But we're not arguing on Mordy - as you call him - with this, but rather the Nightmare Court, of which there is plenty of evidence and material to observe. And the Nightmare Court are far from torturing others simply so others can join them. They act with purpose and intention other than wallowing in despair and wanting others to join them. Nothing about them, to me, shows hopelessness. Those who are hopeless - or getting there - are those who have not yet turned to Nightmare. Go to the NC base in Morgan's Spiral in Caledon Forest, the one where you can act as a spy, and talk to the courtiers there; play through the White Stag storyline even, or the Where Life Goes one. Those show perfect examples of how they're perusing actual goals that expand beyond "if I'm sad, everyone else should be too" or likeminded mentalities. Considering I've been through such mentalities personally, I cannot see it in them - so either your right and its bad storywriting, or your not right there. But as you said, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

And "regardless of what the NC started out as, it is very different from what Cadyern had envisioned at first" is exactly what I said, though summarized to a single sentence.

As to the Inquest knowing of Mordremoth - that's hard to figure. Considering they're experimenting with draconic energies, they've likely found a means to search for such. It's possible they have spies in the Durmand Priory, and they do have an alliance with the Nightmare Court so from them they could have obtained Summoned Husks and the like without much qualm. But how they found out about the sixth - if Zone Green/Experimental Lab Green is indeed as all implications give about the sixth - is still a mystery.

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