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#1 Fiery Lily

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:03 PM

I was thinking about what's the best composition for tourneys and I have a couple of questions for everybody:

1) often the discussion about professions is quite short-sighted because it revolves around 1v1 which is one of the possible scenarios in tournment but probably not the one you see more often. Is it really so appealing to have somebody that can 1v1 very well but it's not so useful in a teamfight? For example 1v1 builds often need surviving traits to work cause pure damage would be too fragile: in a teamfight the problem could be solved.

2) this leads me to the second point. Control abilities are often used for bunker builds but could be used in combination to let the dps builds dish up more damage and let them unequip their control/defensive abilities. I dont deny a bunker or maybe even 2 (depending how u wanna play your team) are necessary but couldnt we have 1 proper bunker and 1 high survivability controller? Or it's a waste in your opinion?

3) Support: 80-90% of cases discussions about support end up being discussions about healing. Support could be other things. While i dont deny the usefulness of defensive support and healing there are support builts that can grant many stacks of might or even permafury. Again: i'm silly to consider offensive support as useful as defensive one?

4) Condition vs power: this is not quite a question but more like an opinion. Isnt the game a bit biased towards condition builds? Except a few high burst builds direct damage seems to be falling behind in general. Or am i horribly wrong? This idea may actually be connected with point 3 since it forces at least one of the team to be condition cleanser (support necro or ele very often) therefore limiting possibilities.

5) After all this please give me your favourite composition for tourneys, being specific about who does what. I'm just curious about what people consider "best in slot" for a team.

#2 Mekkakat

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:49 PM

1) All of the best builds (in the meta) are able to 1v1. This doesn't detract from their team utility except for some variants of the 100b build and full out S/P Mesmers. Not all classes were created equally in the 1v1 world - but they can partake/win.

2)"Bunkers" and CC skills are not exclusive. Every good build has some sort of CC, even if it's just for escaping. To have a single class play for just CC is silly when most of the best CC classes (ex. Engi) are naturally going to excel from the start without investing any sort of weird tradeoffs to do so... if that makes sense.

3) Support is support. Offensive simply means that you and your team can be more aggressive while using support. If you're talking strictly healing support, then you're still talking support (although specialized). I'm not sure what kind of answer you were looking for here, but I'd venture to say that most think the opposite of what you're saying. Yes, Healing Rain and Tome of Courage are healing support, but the most common use of the term support will imply moves with global (and multiple) buffs/abilities. "Save Yourselves!" and "For Great Justice!" come to mind first.

4) Quite the opposite. Bleed and burning are stupid easy to remove. Poison and weakness are great, but don't have a lot of great skills associated with them (outside of a few). Chill is my personal favorite condition in the game, however. That being said, Condition stacks are easy to remove, and in a meta surrounded by plenty of big condition removing skills/classes, I rarely see conditions being used for anything more than annoying pressure. Not DEADLY pressure... just annoying. Enough to force you to take a few extra skills as a team to deal with it. I can only think of 2 builds in the entire game with the condition skills strong enough to really make a team worried - and both are countered by a single Guardian. As far as damage goes, this game loves DPS.

5) Big question that would take forever to answer. Depends on the map, who you're playing with, and what everyone is good at. While I don't usually run this, I see a lot triple Guardians augmented by burst Mesmers. Toss in your choice of Necro/Ele/Engi support and you have a team most dread to fight. Warriors and Rangers not included.

*these are just my opinions, based on my personal experiences in tPvP.

Edited by Mekkakat, 05 December 2012 - 01:49 PM.

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#3 redslion

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:15 PM

Well, I think condition builds can do well, but they have to apply all conditions, not only one or two. You have to apply burning, bleeding, poison, confusion, if you want them not to be cleansed. And use them in group fights: with engineer, laying a 5-stack confusion and a burning bomb in the middle of a fight can bring many people to 50% health, because they didn't realize soon enough what was going on.

I think there's also the problem about satistics: you can deal good damage with conditions by just using condition damage, while to deal good direct damage you need precision, power and critical damage. Or, at least, that's a problem for engineer.

#4 Shinimas

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:47 PM

Quote

Warriors and Rangers not included.

Indeed. I honestly don't know what team in their right mind would use these professions. Unfortunately, in case of Warriors, too many pubbies are complaining about 100b, so it won't get buffed.

In all honesty, we've been stuck with the same super trio for months now. Mesmer, Thief, Guardian. However, Mesmer does everything Thief can, while being much tougher. There's some kind of problem with the way A-net designed classes. Some get all kinds of boons and conditions, AoE, unique mechanics, invulnerability and evasion and others get... well, nothing. A bit more health or pets that do bugger all, somehow this is supposed to be a fair tradeoff.

The imbalance is so complex and massive it's scary. Not only it's numerical, but the utility and depth of abilities that the super trio classes get are so much greater than what the others have it's insane. With the exception of the Elementalist, it's only numerical, this prof has a lot of utility and powerful skills, but A-net decided to slap a 60-90 sec. cooldown on them.

Considering the speed A-net seems to be dealing with imbalances and the sheer number of them I think it's safe to assume this meta of three is never going to change.

#5 Mekkakat

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:52 PM

View PostShinimas, on 05 December 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

Indeed. I honestly don't know what team in their right mind would use these professions. Unfortunately, in case of Warriors, too many pubbies are complaining about 100b, so it won't get buffed.

In all honesty, we've been stuck with the same super trio for months now. Mesmer, Thief, Guardian. However, Mesmer does everything Thief can, while being much tougher. There's some kind of problem with the way A-net designed classes. Some get all kinds of boons and conditions, AoE, unique mechanics, invulnerability and evasion and others get... well, nothing. A bit more health or pets that do bugger all, somehow this is supposed to be a fair tradeoff.

The imbalance is so complex and massive it's scary. Not only it's numerical, but the utility and depth of abilities that the super trio classes get are so much greater than what the others have it's insane. With the exception of the Elementalist, it's only numerical, this prof has a lot of utility and powerful skills, but A-net decided to slap a 60-90 sec. cooldown on them.

Considering the speed A-net seems to be dealing with imbalances and the sheer number of them I think it's safe to assume this meta of three is never going to change.

Put it this way -

I gave up on playing Ele in tPvP. I love the class (one of the few casting classes in any game I've ever played that I've liked) but gosh.. it's pigeon holed to no end. I can and will get to play ONE build in any real form of PvP.

I play Engi too, so at least I have that.. If Ranger wasn't so awful in every way, I'd be playing them next.

Sigh. :(

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#6 Skyro

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:47 PM

IMO the #1 thing limiting build diversity isn't balance at all, it is the maps/game modes. The capture point game mode obviously forces you to split your team up among the points, this creates less team fights and thus marginalizes pure support classes. It is no wonder compositions comprise mostly of bunkers, strong 1v1 classes and roamers. Originally ANet had a vision of 3 roles: support, control, and dps. Both support and control roles merged into bunker because both support and control need to fight in team fights, and thus are relegated to defend points, while DPS has morphed into roamers and 1v1 classes. If they created maps/game modes that encouraged big team fights the a wealth of new and viable builds would increase dramatically.

Now look at the current meta. Everybody agrees warriors and rangers and UP currently (Jonathan Sharp has stated that they are struggling to find a "role" for warriors but they will be buffed somehow). What do these 2 classes have in common? Both don't have viable bunker builds, both are weak 1v1 classes and both are not good roamers. And this somehow surprises people that they are UP in the current meta? Warriors were very strong in GW1 and they have basically the same mechanic as in GW2, but GW1 GvG game mode focused mostly on team fighting.

Now ask yourself what are the strong classes in the current meta? Necro/Mesmers/Thieves (DPS/strong 1v1 classes), Guardians/Engi/Ele (bunkers), and Thief/Ele (roamers). I really do not believe balance b/w the classes is nearly as big a deal as people make it seem on the forums, barring the aforementioned war/ranger. You make a basic composition of 1-2 bunkers, 2-3 DPS and 1 roamer and you're pretty set more or less. Obviously there are ways to better optimize the exact composition based on the enemy composition but bottomline is if your team is competent that basic composition will go far.

As for the ranger, what I would love for ANet to do is morph the ranger into an anti-roamer class, allowing it to camp pathways more effectively and do things like support mid from long range but still be able to fall back and protect the far point from roamers.

The warrior is quite a bit more difficult. Their mechanic is built around being a spike DPS class, but they are mostly meele with no real mobility/escape options. I'm not surprised ANet is finding them hard to balance.

View PostMekkakat, on 05 December 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

Put it this way -

I gave up on playing Ele in tPvP. I love the class (one of the few casting classes in any game I've ever played that I've liked) but gosh.. it's pigeon holed to no end. I can and will get to play ONE build in any real form of PvP.

I play Engi too, so at least I have that.. If Ranger wasn't so awful in every way, I'd be playing them next.

Sigh. :(

D/D roamer eles are getting quite popular since the thief nerfs. D/D ele vs Mesmer is a pretty legit match-up IMO (if they had a portal Mesmer guarding far point that is).

#7 Mekkakat

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:14 PM

View PostSkyro, on 05 December 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

IMO the #1 thing limiting build diversity isn't balance at all, it is the maps/game modes. The capture point game mode obviously forces you to split your team up among the points, this creates less team fights and thus marginalizes pure support classes. It is no wonder compositions comprise mostly of bunkers, strong 1v1 classes and roamers. Originally ANet had a vision of 3 roles: support, control, and dps. Both support and control roles merged into bunker because both support and control need to fight in team fights, and thus are relegated to defend points, while DPS has morphed into roamers and 1v1 classes. If they created maps/game modes that encouraged big team fights the a wealth of new and viable builds would increase dramatically.

Now look at the current meta. Everybody agrees warriors and rangers and UP currently (Jonathan Sharp has stated that they are struggling to find a "role" for warriors but they will be buffed somehow). What do these 2 classes have in common? Both don't have viable bunker builds, both are weak 1v1 classes and both are not good roamers. And this somehow surprises people that they are UP in the current meta? Warriors were very strong in GW1 and they have basically the same mechanic as in GW2, but GW1 GvG game mode focused mostly on team fighting.

Now ask yourself what are the strong classes in the current meta? Necro/Mesmers/Thieves (DPS/strong 1v1 classes), Guardians/Engi/Ele (bunkers), and Thief/Ele (roamers). I really do not believe balance b/w the classes is nearly as big a deal as people make it seem on the forums, barring the aforementioned war/ranger. You make a basic composition of 1-2 bunkers, 2-3 DPS and 1 roamer and you're pretty set more or less. Obviously there are ways to better optimize the exact composition based on the enemy composition but bottomline is if your team is competent that basic composition will go far.

As for the ranger, what I would love for ANet to do is morph the ranger into an anti-roamer class, allowing it to camp pathways more effectively and do things like support mid from long range but still be able to fall back and protect the far point from roamers.

The warrior is quite a bit more difficult. Their mechanic is built around being a spike DPS class, but they are mostly meele with no real mobility/escape options. I'm not surprised ANet is finding them hard to balance.



D/D roamer eles are getting quite popular since the thief nerfs. D/D ele vs Mesmer is a pretty legit match-up IMO (if they had a portal Mesmer guarding far point that is).

D/D Ele is basically the only thing I see people playing anymore for us Eles... and they mostly suck... big time. They have decent escape tools, but you dump too much to get decent DPS. They're ok, and I'll play one here and there - but it's the least reliable build I'm seeing make its way into the metaverse.

I agree with Rangers being the counter-class. They're *perfect* for it, and imo, need skill reworks to make them viable. Preferably skills dealing with animals more. Traps suck, spirits kinda suck.. hell.. most of their skills just.. suck. lol.

Warriors need to be more like GW1 in general. More IAS/IMS options (what the heck Anet?), keep the snares, keep the utility (but make it better) and add more active CC (push, pull, daze, stun and KD). Keep the damage where it is, add those aspects, and they'd be fine. We need a linebacker class... badly. That'd put a HUGE cork in the DPS abuse in this game.

No Mesmer is going to stand around blasting 10k dps when a linebacker is packing a chain of active CC to hold them still for someone to blast their butts.

Currently Warriors also lack the ability to keep fighting. They need their healing skills reworked, as well as some traits to get them some HP back or more condition removal or something.. Big, tough Warriors shouldn't have to run every time they see a freaking Necro, Mesmer... or really anyone besides a Ranger, Ele or Engineer.

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#8 Skyro

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:47 PM

I think you are underrating D/D Eles. I think they are very good point harassers if the opponent is using a Mesmer to guard their far point. Shatters Mesmers are glass cannons, and while they have defensive abilities they can use they can't last in a sustained fight and struggle staying on a point to keep it from being capped since AoE brutalizes both them and their main damage mechanic (clones/phantasms).

D/D Eles right now have just enough damage and just enough survivability to outlast a Mesmer if played right, and then if the opponent sends somebody to help they can just RTL to safety, and they just wasted precious time sending help to their close point. IMO this is why you are starting to see more teams have a bunker guard their close point compared to before where it was like almost always a Mesmer with Portal (although Portal nerf and Mesmer nerfs in general also have something to do with it).

In regards to Warriors I think they are walking a tightrope as if they give them too much I think they will become too strong of a 1v1 class. But a linebacker role would be great if they can. It was what hammer warriors were in GW1 and seems to be the intent of hammer warriors in GW2 as well. I agree that survivability needs to be buffed too. IMO I think meele weapon sets for most classes need to be looked at. The only viable meele sets currently are glass cannons with sufficient defensive/escape options (Mesmer/Thief) and bunker classes. Necro and Ranger meele sets? Nowhere to be found.

#9 Mekkakat

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:35 AM

View PostSkyro, on 05 December 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

I think you are underrating D/D Eles. I think they are very good point harassers if the opponent is using a Mesmer to guard their far point. Shatters Mesmers are glass cannons, and while they have defensive abilities they can use they can't last in a sustained fight and struggle staying on a point to keep it from being capped since AoE brutalizes both them and their main damage mechanic (clones/phantasms).

D/D Eles right now have just enough damage and just enough survivability to outlast a Mesmer if played right, and then if the opponent sends somebody to help they can just RTL to safety, and they just wasted precious time sending help to their close point. IMO this is why you are starting to see more teams have a bunker guard their close point compared to before where it was like almost always a Mesmer with Portal (although Portal nerf and Mesmer nerfs in general also have something to do with it).

In regards to Warriors I think they are walking a tightrope as if they give them too much I think they will become too strong of a 1v1 class. But a linebacker role would be great if they can. It was what hammer warriors were in GW1 and seems to be the intent of hammer warriors in GW2 as well. I agree that survivability needs to be buffed too. IMO I think meele weapon sets for most classes need to be looked at. The only viable meele sets currently are glass cannons with sufficient defensive/escape options (Mesmer/Thief) and bunker classes. Necro and Ranger meele sets? Nowhere to be found.

As far as D/D Ele goes -

I've logged hundreds of Ele hours, play lots of tPvP, and so on as a caller/support Ele (as well as other roles), and I still have to disagree. There isn't a single Ele build capable of killing a "good" Mesmer right now. If you're on equal playing terms, the Mesmer (1v1) will beat you with any of the meta builds. D/D Eles get two burst with 25+ seconds between them with no real way to pin someone in it besides them not paying attention.

I've never even seen a single D/D Ele outside of sPvP tbh, and maybe that's just me - I'm not doubting your experiences.

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#10 blindude

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:17 AM

Well..im not a pro but i d say as long as you have 2 bunkers a roamer and a mesmer(lol) you should be almost fine.
But yeah better not include warriors or rangers.I rarely face rangers in tpvp to have a good opinion but i cant remember the last time there was a warrior that gave my team problem.Actually i dont remember losing to one in 1vs1 either.
Its like even if they hit hard or have big hp bar they are so predictable, easy to avoid and "manipulate".

#11 Skyro

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:21 PM

View PostMekkakat, on 06 December 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

As far as D/D Ele goes -

I've logged hundreds of Ele hours, play lots of tPvP, and so on as a caller/support Ele (as well as other roles), and I still have to disagree. There isn't a single Ele build capable of killing a "good" Mesmer right now. If you're on equal playing terms, the Mesmer (1v1) will beat you with any of the meta builds. D/D Eles get two burst with 25+ seconds between them with no real way to pin someone in it besides them not paying attention.

I've never even seen a single D/D Ele outside of sPvP tbh, and maybe that's just me - I'm not doubting your experiences.

Read carefully what I said. I didn't say kill the Mesmer, I said outlast in a point contest scenario. Obviously you'll have a hard time killing the Mesmer if they stay at range b/c of the range on Dagger ele skills but that's not the point, the point is you're contesting their far point and they will have to send another person to get you off it. If they stay on the point, your abundance of AoE will constantly be killing their clones and slowing down their shatter rate. As long as you're aware and don't eat full blurred frenzy + shatter spikes you're fine.

It becomes a very fine line for the Mesmer b/w deciding when and if to contest the point, trying to kill the Ele, and trying to stay alive. I've seen it enough times in paids that I do not believe it is just something whacky the team decided to do. What I believe the general strategy is is they leave their close point unguarded and aggressively attack the far point and neutralizing it enough to win the game (as long as they don't lose mid too much obviously).

edit: contrast that to a thief harasser. Mesmer vs thief, one of them is going to die and in relatively short order, with little focus on point contest. Thieves are horrible at point contesting due to not being able to neutralize points while in stealth, so they pretty much have to kill the Mesmer. My main is a Mesmer, so my experience is from the Mesmer's POV.

Edited by Skyro, 06 December 2012 - 04:46 PM.


#12 Mekkakat

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 07:00 PM

View PostSkyro, on 06 December 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

Read carefully what I said. I didn't say kill the Mesmer, I said outlast in a point contest scenario. Obviously you'll have a hard time killing the Mesmer if they stay at range b/c of the range on Dagger ele skills but that's not the point, the point is you're contesting their far point and they will have to send another person to get you off it. If they stay on the point, your abundance of AoE will constantly be killing their clones and slowing down their shatter rate. As long as you're aware and don't eat full blurred frenzy + shatter spikes you're fine.

It becomes a very fine line for the Mesmer b/w deciding when and if to contest the point, trying to kill the Ele, and trying to stay alive. I've seen it enough times in paids that I do not believe it is just something whacky the team decided to do. What I believe the general strategy is is they leave their close point unguarded and aggressively attack the far point and neutralizing it enough to win the game (as long as they don't lose mid too much obviously).

edit: contrast that to a thief harasser. Mesmer vs thief, one of them is going to die and in relatively short order, with little focus on point contest. Thieves are horrible at point contesting due to not being able to neutralize points while in stealth, so they pretty much have to kill the Mesmer. My main is a Mesmer, so my experience is from the Mesmer's POV.

I'm not sure how this is any different than an Ele standing on a point while a Mesmer wails on them. The Mesmer never runs out of DPS (too fast of cooldowns). The Ele WILL run out of defense skills.. and quickly. The Mesmer has short work if they just kit the short range of D/D and simply widdle the meager HP of the Ele away..

I've also never personally seen a D/D in a paid.

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#13 Skyro

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 07:36 PM

View PostMekkakat, on 06 December 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

I'm not sure how this is any different than an Ele standing on a point while a Mesmer wails on them. The Mesmer never runs out of DPS (too fast of cooldowns). The Ele WILL run out of defense skills.. and quickly. The Mesmer has short work if they just kit the short range of D/D and simply widdle the meager HP of the Ele away..

I've also never personally seen a D/D in a paid.

The difference is that if they stay to contest the point all their clones/phantasms are generated in a condensed area that are AoE'ed down very quickly along with the Mesmer himself. This slows down the Mesmer's DPS substantially over time and the only way for the Mesmer to kill the Ele is to get off numerous Blurred Frenzy and Mind Wrack spikes.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean when the Mesmer never runs out of DPS or DPS cooldowns. If we're talking about shatter Mesmers here, which is the most common Mesmer build by far, then the vast majority of their DPS reside in Blurred Frenzy and Mind Wrack. Blurred Frenzy requires immobilize (Sword 3) or a stun (Pistol 5) to work. Both have unique attack animations, and Sword 3 has a delay between clone generation and teleport (which causes the Immobilize) and can be reacted to with a dodge.

Mind Wrack also somewhat requires these 2 skills to land and the Ele not to remove them to land (if not you can dodge roll into the shatters as you see them run toward you), outside of using Mirror Images to setup the spike at point blank range. With the abundance of condition removal, stun breaks and vigor uptime it is impossible for the Mesmer to kill the Ele, IMO. It requires the Ele to "mess up" more or less and get caught with mutiple spikes.

As a Mesmer if I know the Ele is really good I opt to focus on survival and point contest and wait for the rotation from a team member, but like I said I think it still puts my team at a disadvantage if the pressure allows them to leave their close pt undefended. Personally I find it much easier dealing with Thieves than D/D Eles as that will go one or another and I have control over the situation.

#14 Mekkakat

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 08:43 PM

View PostSkyro, on 06 December 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

The difference is that if they stay to contest the point all their clones/phantasms are generated in a condensed area that are AoE'ed down very quickly along with the Mesmer himself. This slows down the Mesmer's DPS substantially over time and the only way for the Mesmer to kill the Ele is to get off numerous Blurred Frenzy and Mind Wrack spikes.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean when the Mesmer never runs out of DPS or DPS cooldowns. If we're talking about shatter Mesmers here, which is the most common Mesmer build by far, then the vast majority of their DPS reside in Blurred Frenzy and Mind Wrack. Blurred Frenzy requires immobilize (Sword 3) or a stun (Pistol 5) to work. Both have unique attack animations, and Sword 3 has a delay between clone generation and teleport (which causes the Immobilize) and can be reacted to with a dodge.

Mind Wrack also somewhat requires these 2 skills to land and the Ele not to remove them to land (if not you can dodge roll into the shatters as you see them run toward you), outside of using Mirror Images to setup the spike at point blank range. With the abundance of condition removal, stun breaks and vigor uptime it is impossible for the Mesmer to kill the Ele, IMO. It requires the Ele to "mess up" more or less and get caught with mutiple spikes.

As a Mesmer if I know the Ele is really good I opt to focus on survival and point contest and wait for the rotation from a team member, but like I said I think it still puts my team at a disadvantage if the pressure allows them to leave their close pt undefended. Personally I find it much easier dealing with Thieves than D/D Eles as that will go one or another and I have control over the situation.

Lol then I wish all Mesmers played like you. When I'm on Ele, people goredengine me all day, forcing me to have to always play defense. If they die, great... otherwise I'm spending all of my time rolling and bunkering a point till my team kills them for me. Granted, I can take a few guys at once.. but man.. it becomes unfun quickly when faced with a Mes or Guardian.

Thieves are hard to talk about because their 1v1 isn't nearly as amazing as their ganking is (in any group size).

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#15 Skyro

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:50 PM

View PostMekkakat, on 06 December 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

Lol then I wish all Mesmers played like you. When I'm on Ele, people goredengine me all day, forcing me to have to always play defense. If they die, great... otherwise I'm spending all of my time rolling and bunkering a point till my team kills them for me. Granted, I can take a few guys at once.. but man.. it becomes unfun quickly when faced with a Mes or Guardian.

Thieves are hard to talk about because their 1v1 isn't nearly as amazing as their ganking is (in any group size).

That's exactly my point. I'm specifically saying that Eles are, IMO, the best point harassers, not the best point defenders (there are multiple viable point defenders). Thieves are the only class with comparable mobility and ability to escape from situations where you are outnumbered, both things you want from a far point harasser, which is why I make the comparison with Thieves.

I completely agree that if the Mesmer wants to survive he will survive, but same goes for the Ele, however the Mesmer shouldn't be able to both survive and keep the Ele from neutralizing the point unless the Ele messes up. If you don't agree with that statement then that is where our experiences differ, but remember that the focus is not to kill the Mesmer (although this is possible if the Mesmer is heavily focused on DPS'ing you down and/or contesting the point), the focus is on neutralizing the point as much as possible, forcing help to come to their close point, and not dying as to give the opposing team points for it. This is purely a team strategy to win the match, NOT a question of who would win a 1v1 (which would be a stalement as you said), and IMO the Ele does this better than any other class.

#16 Dirame

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 12:45 PM

View PostMekkakat, on 05 December 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

Put it this way -

I gave up on playing Ele in tPvP. I love the class (one of the few casting classes in any game I've ever played that I've liked) but gosh.. it's pigeon holed to no end. I can and will get to play ONE build in any real form of PvP.

I play Engi too, so at least I have that.. If Ranger wasn't so awful in every way, I'd be playing them next.

Sigh. :(

I believe I figured out how to play a Ranger but due to the fact that the speed at which pets use certain skills and the decision of which skills they use is beyond your control, playing a Ranger feels detached and not dependent on your skill but rather on the timing of an Ai controlled pet.

Also, evasion build with bird pets is seriously op up the wazoo. It's funny to me how easily skilled Rangers can outwit you and out heal you and still do a lot of damage without you knowing it.

Edited by Dirame, 07 December 2012 - 12:46 PM.


#17 Mekkakat

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 01:43 PM

View PostSkyro, on 06 December 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

That's exactly my point. I'm specifically saying that Eles are, IMO, the best point harassers, not the best point defenders (there are multiple viable point defenders). Thieves are the only class with comparable mobility and ability to escape from situations where you are outnumbered, both things you want from a far point harasser, which is why I make the comparison with Thieves.

I completely agree that if the Mesmer wants to survive he will survive, but same goes for the Ele, however the Mesmer shouldn't be able to both survive and keep the Ele from neutralizing the point unless the Ele messes up. If you don't agree with that statement then that is where our experiences differ, but remember that the focus is not to kill the Mesmer (although this is possible if the Mesmer is heavily focused on DPS'ing you down and/or contesting the point), the focus is on neutralizing the point as much as possible, forcing help to come to their close point, and not dying as to give the opposing team points for it. This is purely a team strategy to win the match, NOT a question of who would win a 1v1 (which would be a stalement as you said), and IMO the Ele does this better than any other class.

I don't disagree that Ele is one of the best point keepers in the game, but defending one's self from a good Mesmer is a tough task. They're scary alone, and worse in numbers. There's nothing scary about an Ele... we're just annoying :P

View PostDirame, on 07 December 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

I believe I figured out how to play a Ranger but due to the fact that the speed at which pets use certain skills and the decision of which skills they use is beyond your control, playing a Ranger feels detached and not dependent on your skill but rather on the timing of an Ai controlled pet.

Also, evasion build with bird pets is seriously op up the wazoo. It's funny to me how easily skilled Rangers can outwit you and out heal you and still do a lot of damage without you knowing it.

Oh I agree. Pets are the way to go when playing that class - otherwise you're losing half of what the class was designed to be. I just really wish more of the Ranger skills were like Hunter's Call and allowed you to summon more animals to help you fight, etc. The utility skills are generally awful, so if we had a few skills in an "Animal Control" (or something like that lol) category, instead of say.. spirits or something- that'd be awesome :P

I also love the birds.

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#18 Sizmo

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:02 PM

View PostMekkakat, on 06 December 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

As far as D/D Ele goes -
...
I've never even seen a single D/D Ele outside of sPvP tbh, and maybe that's just me - I'm not doubting your experiences.

i think it's just you.  D/D ele's are everywhere in tPvP from my perspective.  Not only do i play one but there is almost always atleast 1 on the other team, sometimes 2.   What i'm seeing is more ele's and less guardians.  For the double bunker teams before,  you now see them with 1 bunker and 1 support ele and sometimes even 1 support/heal ele and 1 more-dps ele (probably something like an aura share build that can be both offfensive but also provide good protection to the team).

#19 Mekkakat

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:33 PM

View PostSizmo, on 07 December 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

i think it's just you.  D/D ele's are everywhere in tPvP from my perspective.  Not only do i play one but there is almost always atleast 1 on the other team, sometimes 2.   What i'm seeing is more ele's and less guardians.  For the double bunker teams before,  you now see them with 1 bunker and 1 support ele and sometimes even 1 support/heal ele and 1 more-dps ele (probably something like an aura share build that can be both offfensive but also provide good protection to the team).

Hmm, odd. I still play support Ele, and almost every Ele I play with or against is Staff or S/D.

I obviously am only speaking for myself, too. Go Elementalist! Love seeing them get more play :D

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#20 Sizmo

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:56 PM

S/D has also seen a huge increase, from where i stand.   Staff was hurt w/ the EA blast finisher changes, so there has been a mass exodus from that 'spec' but staff is still completely viable if its being used for combo fields.

I personally have the most fun playing D/D and that's why i play it.  I also prefer the way it delivers its heals vs the staff play style.

#21 Isms

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 12:26 PM

Meta:

Guardian for center point holding.
Mesmer w/ portal for back point holding (communicate with your team, this has a broad skill-range).

Elementalist roamer (essential in khylo for anti-treb)
Thief Roamer (prioritizes deadly targets, rides them hard: see Necro)
Power necro with rez signet. Blows up mid node. Focuses on staying at mid point.

Tactics: Won't reveal specifics that we use, but the 'meta' seems to have a general "mesmer to close, all other 4 to mid"
Don't bother taking the far node (there are exceptions), winning the middle is your only concern. This keeps your team close so you can always out-roam the enemy team and have the numbers advantage. If you try to take the far point, you'll just lose it to the enemy team as they constantly zerg it from their respawn and overwhelm you.

#22 ultima

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 12:38 PM

roamer: Thief atm overpowered / sry to say but no class should oneshot an other offensive class out of nowhere. fix stealthduration...  imo thief is Nonplusultra in roaming ( best mobility, highest burst in a short time, great esacpeskills, on highlevel of course hard to Play but if u master that class)   bunker: Guardians too much defense, stability and damage for that bunkerstyles.  rezshit is atm to powerful ...  plx fix staffskills especially autoattacks with staff and the earthskills should do more damage... make staff offensive viable thx  hehe i saw last paid tourneys 2 very good tanky rangers some kinda of a antiroamerclass (arsanist and bleeding...)

Edited by ultima, 13 December 2012 - 12:45 PM.


#23 Mekkakat

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:24 PM

View PostIsms, on 13 December 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

Meta:

Guardian for center point holding.
Mesmer w/ portal for back point holding (communicate with your team, this has a broad skill-range).

Elementalist roamer (essential in khylo for anti-treb)
Thief Roamer (prioritizes deadly targets, rides them hard: see Necro)
Power necro with rez signet. Blows up mid node. Focuses on staying at mid point.

Tactics: Won't reveal specifics that we use, but the 'meta' seems to have a general "mesmer to close, all other 4 to mid"
Don't bother taking the far node (there are exceptions), winning the middle is your only concern. This keeps your team close so you can always out-roam the enemy team and have the numbers advantage. If you try to take the far point, you'll just lose it to the enemy team as they constantly zerg it from their respawn and overwhelm you.

This.

Welcome to 90% of tPvP :P

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#24 Skyro

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:00 PM

View PostIsms, on 13 December 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

Meta:

Guardian for center point holding.
Mesmer w/ portal for back point holding (communicate with your team, this has a broad skill-range).

Elementalist roamer (essential in khylo for anti-treb)
Thief Roamer (prioritizes deadly targets, rides them hard: see Necro)
Power necro with rez signet. Blows up mid node. Focuses on staying at mid point.

Tactics: Won't reveal specifics that we use, but the 'meta' seems to have a general "mesmer to close, all other 4 to mid"
Don't bother taking the far node (there are exceptions), winning the middle is your only concern. This keeps your team close so you can always out-roam the enemy team and have the numbers advantage. If you try to take the far point, you'll just lose it to the enemy team as they constantly zerg it from their respawn and overwhelm you.

Yup that's the basic "balanced" setup. IMO though if you have an aggressive roamer harassing their far point which enables you to not have to defend your close pt that puts you at an advantage. Being aggressive is very well rewarded in this game system where you only need a fraction of the time to neutralize a point rather than to cap it. Even if mid is a stalemate, if your far point harasser neutralizes their point long enough (and not die to people rotating, e.g. why I think D/D Eles can play a strong role in the current meta due to their escape/mobility/survivability) and you can contest mid hard enough to force them to keep people there and not sneak out to your point you are golden. Although a lot of people don't want ANet to put in MMR for some bizarre reason it will definitely help flush out the meta faster because you don't learn anything when one team smashes another team.

#25 Sizmo

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:46 PM

ya this is pretty much what i see too.  the only thing i have to say is, Power necro?  not sure i can side w/ that one.  The necro is still targeted first because of its ability to condi through protection heavy bunkers.  Take away the useful condi dmg and they drop a few places on the target order list.

#26 nicktjc

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:43 PM

I honestly don't understand how hard it is to find a role for a warrior. First of all, the fact that there is none is an exceptionally good starting point. Right of the top of my head:

Have the warrior be a point clearer. As in, make the Fear Me shout apply an ALL AROUND 5 second fear. Basically what I'm saying is that a Warrior is good for CC, but damnit make them GREAT for it. a five second fear with a buff to speed/or whatever would go a loooonnggg way without changing the meta. Or hell, just make it a 30 second cooldown. See, not that hard.

#27 Skyro

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:57 PM

View PostSizmo, on 13 December 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

ya this is pretty much what i see too.  the only thing i have to say is, Power necro?  not sure i can side w/ that one.  The necro is still targeted first because of its ability to condi through protection heavy bunkers.  Take away the useful condi dmg and they drop a few places on the target order list.

Pretty sure he means 30/30/10/0/0 build Wells build. That build is still based on conditions (e.g. still uses S/D + Staff). He's not talking about some Axe or MH Dagger build.

Edited by Skyro, 13 December 2012 - 09:57 PM.


#28 icedutah

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 07:17 AM

Necro 30,30,10?
Can you link a build.....curious.

Thanks,




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