26 replies to this topic

[Global_GW2]

https://forum-en.gui...irst#post929303

At long last, communication from Anet on this. I'm stoked.

Edit - I posted this in both the PvE and PvP Engi forums. This one should be used to discuss PvP implications of the change.

Edited by Global_GW2, 05 December 2012 - 06:27 PM.

[Featherman]

Finally! I absolutely hate losing defensive stats from using kits in PvE.

For PvP they'll probably scale down the damage coefficient a bit. If they wanted them to use the damage of PvP weapons they could have simply upped the kit's base damage to match your weapon's. Sigil of battle will now be amazing on engies.

[FoxBat]

Read carefully. Sigils are coming "soon", stats have no ETA.

Edited by FoxBat, 06 December 2012 - 04:22 PM.

[Symbiont]

and sigil proc from turrents? one can only dream...

[redslion]

Will we get weapon-swap sigils working like EVERY OTHER CLASS?

[Symbiont]

redslion, on 07 December 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Will we get weapon-swap sigils working like EVERY OTHER CLASS?

you mean kit swapping, there is no weapon swapping for engineers.
the answer might be; only when elementalist can have sigils to work for attunement swapping.

[Commander Boreale]

Symbiont, on 08 December 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

you mean kit swapping, there is no weapon swapping for engineers.
the answer might be; only when elementalist can have sigils to work for attunement swapping.

It already works for attunement swapping. Sigil of Battle works like a charm, but it has an internal cooldown.

Edited by Commander Boreale, 08 December 2012 - 05:17 PM.

[FoxBat]

Not imba really but swap sigils on engineer would be a little strange. With no cooldown you can literally swap into a kit, immediately swap out, and proc stuff on your next attack with your original weapon set. You basically have the swap effect on command with zero tradeoff, as long as you can keep track of its cooldown. It's practically another utility skill at that point.

[The Trouble With Me]

FoxBat, on 08 December 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

Not imba really but swap sigils on engineer would be a little strange. With no cooldown you can literally swap into a kit, immediately swap out, and proc stuff on your next attack with your original weapon set. You basically have the swap effect on command with zero tradeoff, as long as you can keep track of its cooldown. It's practically another utility skill at that point.

There is an internal cooldown of 9 seconds on weapon swap sigils that I believe applies to all sigils of that type. E.g. sigil of battle can't trigger if sigil of energy has proc'd within 9 seconds.

Edited by The Trouble With Me, 08 December 2012 - 06:26 PM.

[Symbiont]

Commander Boreale, on 08 December 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

It already works for attunement swapping. Sigil of Battle works like a charm, but it has an internal cooldown.

aha, good to know! just made myself my first elementalist...

anyhow, for the engineer it makes more sense if it procs when activating any skill from the tool belt instead from kits, since no profession has any sigil proc by swapping from utility skills.

Edited by Symbiont, 08 December 2012 - 07:06 PM.

[FoxBat]

The Trouble With Me, on 08 December 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

There is an internal cooldown of 9 seconds on weapon swap sigils that I believe applies to all sigils of that type. E.g. sigil of battle can't trigger if sigil of energy has proc'd within 9 seconds.

Yes obviously, that's why you *track* the cooldown, and it becomes a "utility" with a 9s cooldown. Other classes have to lock into actually using their other weapon/attunement a little bit when they go for the proc effect, engineer has to make no such tradeoff.

[The Trouble With Me]

Small cooldown on kit swapping incoming? =o

[Ragnadaam]

The Trouble With Me, on 08 December 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

Small cooldown on kit swapping incoming? =o

That would be a rather large nerf imo; to the point where if that was the trade off for having sigils on kits, I'd rather not have sigils on kits.

Edited by Ragnadaam, 09 December 2012 - 10:10 PM.

[MrForz]

Ragnadaam, on 09 December 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

That would be a rather large nerf imo; to the point where if that was the trade off for having sigils on kits, I'd rather not have sigils on kits.

Pretty much this. I'll prefer the Engi as it is right now.

[Budzasty]

I'd like to remind that in order to use any kits(except med kit) you have to sacrifice an utility slot, which is already a costly deal. So while other classes have cooldowns on weapons swaps/attunements, they also always have 3 utility skills available. If engineer wants to stay on par he has to use up at least one support slot for kit.

With 1 weapon and 1 kit low swap cooldown isn't a huge boon yet, as there are internal cooldowns on each weapon/kit skill too, i.e. if you use up rifle cooldowns, ability to swap back to it after 2 seconds doesn't give you nothing more than #1 auto attack. It's get better with 2 kits and awesome with 3, but not using any support slots is huge cost.

Adding meaningful cooldowns on kits swapping would be rather big nerf.

[coglin]

Budzasty, on 10 December 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

I'd like to remind that in order to use any kits(except med kit) you have to sacrifice an utility slot, which is already a costly deal. So while other classes have cooldowns on weapons swaps/attunements, they also always have 3 utility skills available. If engineer wants to stay on par he has to use up at least one support slot for kit.

"Sacrafice" sure sounds like a horrible word to describe a kit. I can list you 2 abilities from every kit that is a full utility skill on another class. I hardly call a utility that gives me the benefit of any 2 other classes utility skills as "costly". You have a very warped definition of "on par" in my opinion.

Edited by coglin, 10 December 2012 - 10:20 PM.

[Budzasty]

coglin, on 10 December 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

"Sacrafice" sure sounds like a horrible word to describe a kit. I can list you 2 abilities from every kit that is a full utility skill on another class. I hardly call a utility that gives me the benefit of any 2 other classes utility skills as "costly". You have a very warped definition of "on par" in my opinion.

Only toolkit has decent supportive skills(pull/block). Elixir gun has #5 heal, but it's bugged and better then should be atm. Grenades, bombs, flamethrower are all fully offensive toolkits. And just because some skill give blind or 3s swiftness it doesn't make it on par with real support skills, many weapons from other classes have such build in support - see mesmer, guardian, necro to give few examples.

Anyways feel free to give me example of good support skills(not some useless ones that no one use) on engi kits - like: mist form, armor of earth, frenzy(and comparable skills), endure pain, stand your ground, wall of reflection, shadowed refugee, shadowstep, nullfield or even our own elixir S/R. With three kits in support slots you don't have even single stunbreak or condition heal(not counting medkit as it doesn't use up support skill). And this is costly in PvP.

No idea why you see my "on par" as warped - you have to use up at least 1 support slot just to have what every single other class have. A weapon swap.

I like freedom that kits give to me, but I see the price it has. Feel free to be ignorant though.

Edited by Budzasty, 11 December 2012 - 01:26 AM.

[coglin]

Elixir gun had a heal, the equivalent of rangers "quick reflexs", AoE condition removal, a skil that cripples foes and grants swiftness to allies, while the #1 skill does direct damage, grants a bleed, and debuffs weaknes.

Sorry, but your analysis of kits is a joke.

[Budzasty]

coglin, on 11 December 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

Elixir gun had a heal, the equivalent of rangers "quick reflexs", AoE condition removal, a skil that cripples foes and grants swiftness to allies, while the #1 skill does direct damage, grants a bleed, and debuffs weaknes.

Sorry, but your analysis of kits is a joke.

I already said about #5 elixir heal. #4 breaks stun, since when? If not you can't compare it to rangers "lightning reflexes" and most supportive run away skills. 3s cripple/swiftness is available on various weapons be it as longer swiftness or cripple. Mesmer staff, guardian staff, guardian hammer(hey it's immobilize even), warriors weapons, necro scepter to give few examples. We will now count them as equivalent to support skills too? Warrior mace applies stun and weakness, necro scepter/dagger gives slow, bleed and weakness, mesmer staff has tons of conditions/support too. Various conditions aren't limited to engis elixir gun, other classes have them too you know.

Anyways I just don't see your point here as I never said elixir gun is weak which you seem to argue against. Still elixir gun as supportive weapon simply doesn't cut it as a reason to occupy skills slot. For example guardian staff/hammer is supportive too, mesmer staff is, necro staff, ele staff, warrior x/warhorn. And yet those classes still have free support slots for various skills.

And what about supportive skills on grenades, flamethrower, bombs? That's 3/5 of our kits. What about the list  of quality support skills I've wrote from other classes, can you give me similar kits skills please?

Seems you already don't have any arguments in discussion about kits and go into "your arguments are joke" crutch. As I said just because you think kits are better, doesn't mean the cost they come with isn't meaningful, it simply seems you just want to ignore it badly.

Edited by Budzasty, 13 December 2012 - 08:38 AM.

[coglin]

So what? I have weapons skills that do the same thing as other classes utilities as well. You claimed only one kit has any supportive abilities. That is a joke. Your rebuke is the definition of strawman.

Bomb kit can heal, offers invisibility, blind, gives combo finishers and combo firelds, But your rightm, thats not supportive at all

Med kit removes conditions, has heals, gives fury/swiftness buff, all of which I can drop for anyone, but your right, thats not supportive.

Elixir gun has an AoE condition removal, debuffs weakness and so on.

Odd you claim those perfectly good facts as a "laack of an arguement". If you claim those benefits I listed as "a lack of supportive skills", then the issue isn't with my arguement, the issue is with your lack of comprehension of what supportive skills are.

[Killyox]

Superior Battle > all else for both, power and condi specs.

[redslion]

You mean strength, right?

[Killyox]

redslion, on 15 December 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

You mean strength, right?

No, i mean superior battle. Strength as of Dec 14 patch is useless because it got 10 sec ICD where it had none before.

[blindude]

Killyox, on 15 December 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

No, i mean superior battle. Strength as of Dec 14 patch is useless because it got 10 sec ICD where it had none before.

theres no way they should do something like that..the 10 sec is probably the might duration but i do believe it has a icd like 2 sec or so.

[redslion]

http://wiki.guildwar...gil_of_Strength

On the wiki it says 2 seconds

And on the patchnotes nothing is written about changes to it.

At first sight they seem equal. Let's analyze how do they work

Let's assume 60% bonus duration to might

From sigil of battle: 32 seconds duration icd 10 seconds You get 9 stacks of might total:
Time: 0s ----3 stacks of might (32 seconds duration)
Time:10s ---6 stacks (3 at 32, other 3 at 22)
Time:20s--- 9 stacks (3 at 32, other 3 at 22, last 3 at 12)
Time: 30s--- 12 stacks (3 at 32, 3 at 22, other 3 at 12, last 3 at 2)
Time: 32s--- 9 stacks (last 3 runs out)

Ok, with 60% might duration you get 9 stable stacks of might

Rune of superior strength: 16 sec duration on 2 s Icd (tet's assume every attack is a critical, first)

Time:0s---1 stack (16s)

Time:2s---2 stacks (16s,14s)

Time:4s---3 stacks (16s,14s,12s)
Time:6s---4 stacks (16s,14s,12s,10s)
Time:8s---5 stacks (16s,14s,12s,10s,8s)
Time:10s---7 stacks (16s,14s,12s,10s,8s,6s)
Time:12s---8 stacks (16s,14s,12s,10s,8s,6s,4s)
Time:12s---9 stacks (16s,14s,12s,10s,8s,6s,4s,2s)

Time:12s---9 stacks (16s,14s,12s,10s,8s,6s,4s,2s,0s) last stack runs out.

Sooo... both sigils give you 9 stacks of might BUT this calculation has been done with some approximations: we assumed that every of our attacks was critical, and that we attacked every seconds. This doesn't happen often, and not all builds have high crit chance. So you could wait 3,4 or even 5 seconds to make that sigil proc. While you can always make the sigil of battle proc every icd.

Sigil of battle works better number-wise, while sigil of strength has 2 minor advantages: it takes less time to build (but you'll have to build that again every time you fight) and it's easier to use (it procs automatically: you don't have to count 10 seconds every time to use the sigil to its fullest).

Sorry about my question, but I wasn't sure weapon-swap sigils finally started to work.XD

P.S.: Oh, and sigil of battle works well with Enhance performance (Explosives tree, trait X) and medkit.XD

With only this stuff, we achieve 15 stacks of might = +475 to power and condition damage. With only a 20 trait points investments, and without being forced to use FT all the time.

And speaking about Flamethrower, I have seen some heavy damage sometimes, and it's excellent against mesmer's illusions but I don't know how, but I feel much more vulnerable with it. Have you met the same problem, or is it just me who is not too proficient with Flamethrower?



Well, however, here is a video for inspiration:

Edited by redslion, 15 December 2012 - 07:03 PM.

[Killyox]

blindude, on 15 December 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

theres no way they should do something like that..the 10 sec is probably the might duration but i do believe it has a icd like 2 sec or so.

No. It clearly states so on the sigil. You get a lot less procs. Even if they did in fact give lower ICD then it still is far far worse than it was. The main point of it was the ability to stack it with the likes of #1 on pistol, and #3 #4 as well rather easily due to aoe part and no CD.

Superior Battle & Geomancy are now my fav. Still considering best options for second sigil.

redslion, on 15 December 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

snip

There is 1 flaw with those calcs.

Battle does not require crit. It is 100% guarenteed effect on demand. Strength depends on procs from crits and with ICD it became rather crappish imo, at least compared to former self. You can still use strength + battle though

[redslion]

Killyox, I counted even that, saying that, if every attack is a crit the time between one proc and another is 2 seconds.
Then I showed that, in those conditions, the two sigils are equal, damage-wise.
So Sigil of Strength is In the best of cases equal to Battle. Normally, is worse.

On average, even on high crit build I think you should wait something like 3-4 seconds to get a proc.

Edited by redslion, 15 December 2012 - 10:26 PM.