18 replies to this topic

[Graham_Specter]

Hey gang,

Well - I'm running the bog standard 10/30/0/0/30 condition damage build - full Rampager's/AC armor, six Runes of Lyssa (expensive as *, but oh so worth it) and I'm beginning to run into a bit of a... conundrum, shall we say? I'm using the sword/pistol combo, as suggested by a lot of people - iDuelist with Fury means loads of bleeds. But I'm a bit less enthused about the sword part - I never really seem to be in a position where Staff isn't better for clearing stuff out. So, I was wondering if I should make my Sword/Pistol set Scepter/Pistol instead, for taking down big bosses? Any thoughts?

[beadnbutter32]

When I first started my Mesmer, I thought scepter pistol looked the best on paper. I started out with a GS and a sword and pistol.  I soon switched in a focus for the pistol as the speed buff was just too good to not get, especially at low levels when you are too poor to waypoint around and have to run allot.  Later I swaped in Staff instead of GS mainly because it's much more of an AOE weapon than the GS.

Finally I swaped out sword and focus for scepter and torch while maxing out precision and condition stats and traits, and the difference is major.  The only time I miss the sword is when time warp is not enough of a speed buff and when cornered by several mobs in a tight space like a tunnel, my least favorite Mesmer place to be.  So Staff with scepter and torch is what  I am running now and I have to say I can solo stuff that gave my warrior fits.  Just last night my Mesmer took on and beat a bunch of trolls and a champion troll that my warrior would never have survived alone.

Edited by beadnbutter32, 06 December 2012 - 02:12 AM.

[draxynnic]

If you're going condition damage, sceptre is probably better for you than sword. Sword is really more of a power weapon - none of the conditions it deals out are directly damaging ones, so being condition-heavy on a sword is pretty much wasted. Sceptre is disfavoured by a lot of the community, but it does pack a potent hit of Confusion, and if the sword isn't doing it for you than it does serve as a good offsider to whatever offhand you're using as long as you're not trying to go triple phantasm.

[sorting hat]

beadnbutter32, on 06 December 2012 - 02:09 AM, said:

*snip*

The only time I miss the sword is when time warp is not enough of a speed buff and when cornered by several mobs in a tight space like a tunnel, my least favorite Mesmer place to be. *snip*

This. Sword #2 is good for this 2s blur, but most of the time its attacks are too close to any mobs for me to feel comfortable with. Plus there's no way of applying conditions to enemies except vulnerable & cripple, which in turn works better with a power build not a condition build.

[Graham_Specter]

draxynnic, on 06 December 2012 - 02:35 AM, said:

If you're going condition damage, sceptre is probably better for you than sword. Sword is really more of a power weapon - none of the conditions it deals out are directly damaging ones, so being condition-heavy on a sword is pretty much wasted. Sceptre is disfavoured by a lot of the community, but it does pack a potent hit of Confusion, and if the sword isn't doing it for you than it does serve as a good offsider to whatever offhand you're using as long as you're not trying to go triple phantasm.

Right. And plus, Scepter has that block that, while not as "good" as 2s of Distortion, can be quickly turned into a line blind. Not too bad looking.

As for secondary, for the bloke who recommended torch, I'm really gonna have to go Pistol, sorry to say. The Duelist just packs a really big number of hits, more chances for bleeds to pop up.

[ObeyGiant]

I use a 0/25/25/0/20 Condition build and I usually roll with Staff/Scepter-Pistol but I keep a Focus and Sword in my bag. For bosses and single targets in general I love my scepter. I break the sword out for certain things like destructible objects and focus for out of combat mobility mostly.

I am interested in hearing about this 10/30/0/0/30 "standard" condition build. I have heard of "Osicat's WvWvW Shattercat" build with uses Staff/Sword-Pistol, 10/30/0/0/30 as well, but is reliant on Berserkers and Shattering often.

I have kind of recently been playing less and less of my Condition Mesmer and more and more of my Necromancer. Necro's seem to be able to spread conditions (especially AOE) like it's an artform. My Mesmer on the other hand can reach the bleed cap single handedly on a single target (albeit with long setup time that is almost impossible to keep up except on the easiest of tank and spanks), something my Necro can't do, but the Necro seems to (and I say "seems to" because my Necro is like level 30) be >mes for aoe and maintaining bleeds is much easier/reliable on single target.

Thinking about breaking down and just farming Soldiers/Berserkers and going Shatter build with my Mes... Conditions (at least since I started playing my Necro) just don't seem optimal (but still viable) I have been using the build for about a month straight and I have been able to clear anything I came across. It is just disheartening when I have my 3 staff clones up for example and I switch to Scepter, summon a duelist, then aoe wipes all my illusions and I am stuck with scepter pistol with weapon switch/duelist on cd with like <3 bleeds on a target with full Rabid/Rampagers/Carrion gear >.>

-OG

[Graham_Specter]

ObeyGiant, on 06 December 2012 - 06:05 AM, said:

I use a 0/25/25/0/20 Condition build and I usually roll with Staff/Scepter-Pistol but I keep a Focus and Sword in my bag. For bosses and single targets in general I love my scepter. I break the sword out for certain things like destructible objects and focus for out of combat mobility mostly.

I am interested in hearing about this 10/30/0/0/30 "standard" condition build. I have heard of "Osicat's WvWvW Shattercat" build with uses Staff/Sword-Pistol, 10/30/0/0/30 as well, but is reliant on Berserkers and Shattering often.

I have kind of recently been playing less and less of my Condition Mesmer and more and more of my Necromancer. Necro's seem to be able to spread conditions (especially AOE) like it's an artform. My Mesmer on the other hand can reach the bleed cap single handedly on a single target (albeit with long setup time that is almost impossible to keep up except on the easiest of tank and spanks), something my Necro can't do, but the Necro seems to (and I say "seems to" because my Necro is like level 30) be >mes for aoe and maintaining bleeds is much easier/reliable on single target.

Thinking about breaking down and just farming Soldiers/Berserkers and going Shatter build with my Mes... Conditions (at least since I started playing my Necro) just don't seem optimal (but still viable) I have been using the build for about a month straight and I have been able to clear anything I came across. It is just disheartening when I have my 3 staff clones up for example and I switch to Scepter, summon a duelist, then aoe wipes all my illusions and I am stuck with scepter pistol with weapon switch/duelist on cd with like <3 bleeds on a target with full Rabid/Rampagers/Carrion gear >.>

-OG

10/30/0/0/30 may not be the "standard" as much as I made it out to be - I do exaggerate things in my initial posts. It's just what was suggested to me by a lot of people, mainly for Sharper Images and (apparently) because Toughness and Vitality really start to matter less at higher level explorable mode dungeons.

As for your other assessment... yeah, I'm beginning to think that's pretty accurate - but something about the Mesmer just keeps me entertained. Maybe because I played a Necro and didn't fancy it much,

[Kelthien]

I run a 0/25/25/0/20 build every now and then and can happily share some of my experiences, good or bad.

First, the build plays very differently in PvE vs WvW.  The "clone death" traits are significantly less effective as few of my clones actually die near my enemies.  Most die from a defeated enemy or AoE spam.  I think this is a weird design mechanic.  The weapons most likely used in a condition build have clones that are rarely in range to deliver conditions 'on death'.  I'd say only about 33%-50% of my clones actually die within range of an enemy.  The lower end of that in WvW, for sure.

Next, Veggie Pizza dramatically increases my overall damage and, in particular, my confusion damage.  Confusion being based on enemy swing times means that, even with traited 4s duration or whatever, it rarely triggers on some enemies.  It's a happy day when Cry of Frustration triggers twice; a requirement for that shatter to have competitive PvE damage with Mind Wrack.  With veggie pizza (40% condition duration), it almost always triggers twice on both Cry of Frustration and Scepter's confusion beam.  That's a HUGE boost to damage, particularly damage-per-cast-time.

Our AoE damage feels very spotty.  Condition-wise, Cry of Frustration, chaos storm, and clone death are really my only sources of 'true' AoE damage.  Chaos Storm only has a 33% chance of inflicting a damaging condition (poison), clone death has a 33% chance (bleeding) though 100% chance of a confusion stack, and Cry of Frustration can be unreliable without a veggie pizza buff.  This means I often rely on my weaker Mind Wrack or bleeds from various phantasms to supplement my AoE damage.  It just feels weaker than some of the power/precision options (blurred frenzy, berserker, potent mind wrack).

I think it's a strong build that theorycrafts well, though suffers a bit in practice.  Enemy swing times, frustrating positioning, and unlucky RNG rolls on your "inflict a random condition" abilities make real-life damage frustratingly unreliable.  I still keep giving it a go, but I'd love to see some boosts to the baseline damage while keeping the top-end condition damage the same.

[whodini]

I run sword pistol but only after the chaos Storm and phase retreat spammed inside storm allowing the combo for the free chaos armor. Then I'll even run back inside with armor still activated allowing to keep foes from getting outside of storm keeping foes grouped inside the storm I will then cast feedback on range attacks while rolling inside feedback bubble i use anoyher phase retreat combo for more chaos armor.This is where the sword comes into play. With the majority already dead the sword allows me to pick off foes one by one. The pistol is nice for that stun in between leap or just buying time to set up for the next big attack. Also keep in mind through all this I used chaos armor twice without even using the skill itself which then can be used as the situation allows it. Setting up for duelist inspiration and illusion traits.

[Twunkington]

draxynnic, on 06 December 2012 - 02:35 AM, said:

If you're going condition damage, sceptre is probably better for you than sword. Sword is really more of a power weapon - none of the conditions it deals out are directly damaging ones, so being condition-heavy on a sword is pretty much wasted.

With the trait spread and gear the OP is using, scepter vs. sword isn't such a clear dichotomy. Both are useful in certain situations, and they're both served well by pow/prec/cond gear. Remember that sword/pistol illusions with Sharper Images still inherit one's condition damage, and scepter abilities still deal direct damage.

sorting hat, on 06 December 2012 - 02:39 AM, said:

This. Sword #2 is good for this 2s blur, but most of the time its attacks are too close to any mobs for me to feel comfortable with. Plus there's no way of applying conditions to enemies except vulnerable & cripple, which in turn works better with a power build not a condition build.

When it comes to dungeons, the salient qualities you'd choose between are the burst-distortion-and-leap combo on the sword or the dependable (but much weaker) single target ranged DPS on the scepter: defense, mobility and burst versus comfortable range superiority. Again, you can still create an iDuelist for ranged bleeding attacks while you bide your time between sword leaps, so your condition damage isn't going completely to waste. The block on the scepter, however, is nowhere near as versatile or effective as Blurred Frenzy. There's really no comparison in that regard.

ObeyGiant, on 06 December 2012 - 06:05 AM, said:

I am interested in hearing about this 10/30/0/0/30 "standard" condition build. I have heard of "Osicat's WvWvW Shattercat" build with uses Staff/Sword-Pistol, 10/30/0/0/30 as well, but is reliant on Berserkers and Shattering often.

*snip*

Thinking about breaking down and just farming Soldiers/Berserkers and going Shatter build with my Mes... Conditions (at least since I started playing my Necro) just don't seem optimal (but still viable) I have been using the build for about a month straight and I have been able to clear anything I came across. It is just disheartening when I have my 3 staff clones up for example and I switch to Scepter, summon a duelist, then aoe wipes all my illusions and I am stuck with scepter pistol with weapon switch/duelist on cd with like <3 bleeds on a target with full Rabid/Rampagers/Carrion gear >.>

-OG

Ah, we're getting warmer! A trait build like the OP's is basically identical to Osicat's, and should be played more or less the same way. The difference is that by trading crit% for condition damage, it enjoys pretty substantial throughput gains on staff attacks and Sharper Images, while suffering a loss in raw shatter damage, mostly due to the limitations of confusion in PvE (crit% gain on MW is guaranteed,  confusion triggering is not.) It's definitely less overall DPS than going straight zerker, but the skill floor is higher- if you're not sure if it's ideal to shatter or some clones die early, conditions still keep ticking. It's also more flexible in dungeons than a straight condition build that neglects power or precision; small adds, multiple targets, and destructible objects like burrows are all much easier to deal with.

Personally, I run a 10/30/0/0/30 build, and swap between classic Shattercat zerker and hybrid condition depending on the situation or my mood. They're both equally effective, and more importantly, equally fun!

[dragonphlu]

beadnbutter32, on 06 December 2012 - 02:09 AM, said:

Finally I swaped out sword and focus for scepter and torch while maxing out precision and condition stats and traits, and the difference is major.  The only time I miss the sword is when time warp is not enough of a speed buff and when cornered by several mobs in a tight space like a tunnel, my least favorite Mesmer place to be.  So Staff with scepter and torch is what  I am running now and I have to say I can solo stuff that gave my warrior fits.  Just last night my Mesmer took on and beat a bunch of trolls and a champion troll that my warrior would never have survived alone.

You got me curious as to what your build is and what armor set you're using. Would you mind sharing please?

I'm currently trying to find a good niche with staff + either MH sword/off-hand along with traits. So far it's 0/30/20/0/20 with emphasis on signets and glamours, but I'm still working on it. I've been curious about the torch and wondering how it fares or is it more just a situational weapon.

Edited by dragonphlu, 07 December 2012 - 09:23 AM.

[Graham_Specter]

Twunkington, on 07 December 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

With the trait spread and gear the OP is using, scepter vs. sword isn't such a clear dichotomy. Both are useful in certain situations, and they're both served well by pow/prec/cond gear. Remember that sword/pistol illusions with Sharper Images still inherit one's condition damage, and scepter abilities still deal direct damage.


When it comes to dungeons, the salient qualities you'd choose between are the burst-distortion-and-leap combo on the sword or the dependable (but much weaker) single target ranged DPS on the scepter: defense, mobility and burst versus comfortable range superiority. Again, you can still create an iDuelist for ranged bleeding attacks while you bide your time between sword leaps, so your condition damage isn't going completely to waste. The block on the scepter, however, is nowhere near as versatile or effective as Blurred Frenzy. There's really no comparison in that regard.



Ah, we're getting warmer! A trait build like the OP's is basically identical to Osicat's, and should be played more or less the same way. The difference is that by trading crit% for condition damage, it enjoys pretty substantial throughput gains on staff attacks and Sharper Images, while suffering a loss in raw shatter damage, mostly due to the limitations of confusion in PvE (crit% gain on MW is guaranteed,  confusion triggering is not.) It's definitely less overall DPS than going straight zerker, but the skill floor is higher- if you're not sure if it's ideal to shatter or some clones die early, conditions still keep ticking. It's also more flexible in dungeons than a straight condition build that neglects power or precision; small adds, multiple targets, and destructible objects like burrows are all much easier to deal with.

Personally, I run a 10/30/0/0/30 build, and swap between classic Shattercat zerker and hybrid condition depending on the situation or my mood. They're both equally effective, and more importantly, equally fun!

Huh, you bring up a -lot- of good points. I'm in mostly lowbie zones right now, so most enemies attack very slowly (Scepter Block is usually enough to nearly finish something) but when I get to dungeons (Kholer's whirl attack, Graveling Scavengers, lots and lots of random giant crystals spouting from the floor) Sword would probably serve me much better. Just wish my guild wasn't so anti-Rampager's. Ah well, if there wasn't a learning curve it wouldn't be nearly as fun.

I do think I'm going to stick with Condition Damage for now. The raw damage tradeoff doesn't bother me too much, as long as I'll be able to contribute to my group's overall success.

[Twunkington]

Graham_Specter, on 07 December 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

Huh, you bring up a -lot- of good points. I'm in mostly lowbie zones right now, so most enemies attack very slowly (Scepter Block is usually enough to nearly finish something) but when I get to dungeons (Kholer's whirl attack, Graveling Scavengers, lots and lots of random giant crystals spouting from the floor) Sword would probably serve me much better.

It's a pity Illusionary Counter isn't more in line with other blocks. There's only one weapon skill block in the entire game with a duration shorter than it, it only absorbs a single attack (making it utterly useless against high volume multi-hit skills like Unload, or just about anything in a fractal) and there's not even a rebound effect to make up for lost time if it doesn't trigger. Contrast that with complete invulns like warrior shield and ranger GS blocks, or the AoE protection rebound on the guardian block, or the activated AoE knockback on the engineer shield block... Blurred Frenzy looks pretty good comparatively, huh? I'll take 2.5 seconds of complete invulnerability on a 10 second base CD any day of the week and twice on Thursdays, thankyouverymuch!

Graham_Specter, on 07 December 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

Just wish my guild wasn't so anti-Rampager's. (. . .) The raw damage tradeoff doesn't bother me too much, as long as I'll be able to contribute to my group's overall success.

People that kvetch about Rampager's gear are the worst kind of willfully ignorant armchair theorycrafters. Yes, the primary stat is precision, so you get less raw damage stats like power and malice. With some professions, it really is a total waste, but that's usually because they're trying to make a condition build revolving around a handful of skills with no useful crit interactions (pro tip: slapping a sigil of earth on every weapon doesn't count, bro.) Just because something inflicts a condition doesn't mean it scales best with condition damage! But for something like a 10/30/0/0/30 condition mesmer that aims to reliably proc traits and sigils with a very high volume of attacks generating as many crits as possible, that extra precision does make up for it and then some. I'll take permanent vigor and capped bleed stacks over 30 more damage on my sword auto and a whopping 2 extra damage per bleed tick, kthxbye.

Edit: cuz grammer and reasons

Edited by Twunkington, 07 December 2012 - 08:52 PM.

[Graham_Specter]

Twunkington, on 07 December 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

People that kvetch about Rampager's gear are the worst kind of willfully ignorant armchair theorycrafters. Yes, the primary stat is precision, so you get less raw damage stats like power and malice. With some professions, it really is a total waste, but that's usually because they're trying to make a condition build revolving around a handful of skills with no useful crit interactions (pro tip: slapping a sigil of earth on every weapon doesn't count, bro.) Just because something inflicts a condition doesn't mean it scales best with condition damage! But for something like a 10/30/0/0/30 condition mesmer that aims to reliably proc traits and sigils with a very high volume of attacks generating as many crits as possible, that extra precision does make up for it and then some. I'll take permanent vigor and capped bleed stacks over 30 more damage on my sword auto and a whopping 2 extra damage per bleed tick, kthxbye.

Edit: cuz grammer and reasons

It's less "raw power" stats and more "OMG Y U no have Power/Toughness/Vitality. U R terribad." All of this from a forum post by a recent member (Member, mind, not officer) talking about how Power/Toughness/Vit was absolutely crucial to - every - dungeon build, and how those who don't use it are discredits to their teams.

Now, I know that I'd be squishy in solo. I'm aware of this, the Shades that enjoy punching me halfway across the Chaos Krewe's Cave in Metrica Province (in higher level armor no less!) love to take advantage of it. But I'd like to think that practical application of Blurred Frenzy, the two dodge rolls and up to... three seconds of invulnerability? (Four if you count the Persona shatter?) Yeah, that insane number of avoidance tools (plus avoiding red circles to begin with, as I should) would help to mitigate a LOT of damage.

What I find doubly hilarious is that the officer who's latched onto this idea the most had run a set steeped in MAGIC FIND until he learned it didn't affect chests. Not to mention that, unless the enemy gets really lucky, Mesmers are hard to finish while downed in ideal situations - namely, Deception actually teleporting me "somewhere else" (and not directly on top of the clone I made) and allies realizing that the clones just auto attack. Granted, heat of battle and all, but it's pretty hilarious to watch people heal the clones when Ether Blast - or whatever it's called - looks veeery different from Bandage.

Sorry to harp on about this issue, they're really a good group of guys. It's just annoying feeling marginalized - I've had discussions about other members who feel the same (One's an Ele, runs pure Coral, doesn't go down easily). Ah well. Communities don't exist without friction now and again, aye?

[Twunkington]

Graham_Specter, on 07 December 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

It's less "raw power" stats and more "OMG Y U no have Power/Toughness/Vitality. U R terribad." All of this from a forum post by a recent member (Member, mind, not officer) talking about how Power/Toughness/Vit was absolutely crucial to - every - dungeon build, and how those who don't use it are discredits to their teams.

... Oh.

People need to realize that 99.9% of damage in dungeons is either completely avoidable or negligible enough to be healed through. It can be useful for one or two members of a group to be built like brick houses, such that they can res others come hell or high water in case of derp (or tank through corpse runs in case of mega derp,) But there are mechanics that circumvent the perceived need to facetank during a res attempt, like Mist Form, Distortion, quickness stealth, etc. that any smart player should be using first. Or they could just, yanno, not get downed in the first place.

Frankly, I see demanding that your entire group stack vit/tough as a blatant declaration that you aren't comfortable with the content you're doing and you need what amounts to training wheels. Friends don't let friends turtleway: squishway it in half the time, collect your loot, and get out.

[Graham_Specter]

Twunkington, on 08 December 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

... Oh.

People need to realize that 99.9% of damage in dungeons is either completely avoidable or negligible enough to be healed through. It can be useful for one or two members of a group to be built like brick houses, such that they can res others come hell or high water in case of derp (or tank through corpse runs in case of mega derp,) But there are mechanics that circumvent the perceived need to facetank during a res attempt, like Mist Form, Distortion, quickness stealth, etc. that any smart player should be using first. Or they could just, yanno, not get downed in the first place.

Frankly, I see demanding that your entire group stack vit/tough as a blatant declaration that you aren't comfortable with the content you're doing and you need what amounts to training wheels. Friends don't let friends turtleway: squishway it in half the time, collect your loot, and get out.

Heh. I honestly do wish I could kick their collective asses down here and let them read this. The double irony is, I suppose, that said member (A Warrior) admitted that he'd not played every class, but he seemed to do a good job of "assuming" that they all worked the same. My 2.5 seconds of complete invincibility on a ten second recharge would like to say otherwise. Decent damage too, if you use it that way it seems.

But enough bad news. Thanks mate, for helping me through my many - MANY - threads working out the condition Mesmer issues. I'm looking to have a lot of fun with this in open world PvE and Dungeon content, it seems like it'll serve me well throughout.

Edited by Graham_Specter, 08 December 2012 - 01:02 AM.

[draxynnic]

Graham_Specter, on 08 December 2012 - 01:01 AM, said:

Heh. I honestly do wish I could kick their collective asses down here and let them read this. The double irony is, I suppose, that said member (A Warrior) admitted that he'd not played every class, but he seemed to do a good job of "assuming" that they all worked the same. My 2.5 seconds of complete invincibility on a ten second recharge would like to say otherwise. Decent damage too, if you use it that way it seems.

Yeah, that's silly. Different professions work different ways - while ArenaNet has done a reasonably good job of ensuring that no stat is completely pointless for any given profession, some certainly benefit more from a different set of stats then others.

[Graham_Specter]

Twunkington, on 07 December 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

Personally, I run a 10/30/0/0/30 build, and swap between classic Shattercat zerker and hybrid condition depending on the situation or my mood. They're both equally effective, and more importantly, equally fun!

20$ worth of gems in a few days to knock out the last few pieces of Coral jewelry, then I set to AC farming for the Rampager's set of armor/Staff/Trident (Trident is AMAZING...)

I did have one last quick question though - it's a matter of Runes. Lyssa runes have shot back up in price, and while my projected profits from this gem sale should still cover everything - I'm beginning to wonder if I shouldn't sell what I have and grab some Runes of the Mad King? Any thoughts on how that works? Are the ravens worth it?

[Twunkington]

Graham_Specter, on 11 December 2012 - 04:20 AM, said:

I'm beginning to wonder if I shouldn't sell what I have and grab some Runes of the Mad King? Any thoughts on how that works? Are the ravens worth it?

The two sets are roughly equivalent. Lyssa is a ton of precision, which helps a lot with Sharper Images, and the full condition removal+get all boons effect is really nice for general use. The power on the Mad King runes definitely gets put to good use, but pure power with no crit dmg% is a bit lackluster- the ravens do hit hard, though. They both have 10% generic condition duration, which is great for the random conditions from Winds of Chaos, and a decent boost to vuln stacking and confusion. The only real clunker is the +bleed% on the Mad King runes: clones don't inherit boon or condi duration, and the only source of bleeding from the mesmer itself is random, from WoC.

TL;DR:
Lyssa = superior all-round utility, Mad King = quirky/fun 6 bonus and not a whole lot else.