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The grind


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#61 Vingilot

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 01:14 AM

"Most of these unique equipments take an excessive, unfeasible amount of goldto get. No flavor. No quest. No challenge. No adventure. No journey. No ~fun~. Just grind. Plain, boring gold grind.
These equips don’t even have a unique sigil or rune."

I cannot agree more. THIS THIS THIS! They have a huge beautiful open world where they can make you run around and gather materials to make a unique looking weapon but they failed short in giving an incentive for players to continue being out in the world. Instead everyone is clustered into LA staring at the TP and the Mystic forge or in Curse Shore farming like there's no tomorrow.

This leads to the end game of this game, dungeons. Everyone is in LA spamming for dungeon groups. That's it, that pretty much rendered the whole game world empty. This is why I decided to take a break from GW2 or playing it on a slow burn. Everything that looks cool takes an excessive amount of grind, do that or dungeons. There's nothing out in the open world for us.

#62 Arewn

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 01:46 AM

I agree with the sentiment that they need more "story for the item", the mystic forge and all that it brings is certainly a great system TO SUPPORT the rest of the game, but it's encompassing too much. They need more venues of acquiring gear that are unrelated to trade skills/the economy.

A good first step was adding unique drops to the dungeon bosses, (though I haven't heard enough about these drops to know if they were done right). There's also the dungeon sets for tokens and karma gear from the Orr priest vendors (so far as pve is concerned).
But how about a unique weapon from a jumping puzzle? or unique chest piece from an 'outdoor dungeon'? Maybe throw in some unique gloves and boots that drop off of certain rare champion mobs? They could have a rare and difficult to trigger+complete dynamic event chain that drops a particularly BA helm.
Or just more items sets that are acquired uniquely from the above sources.

Edited by Arewn, 07 December 2012 - 05:35 AM.


#63 Kymeric

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 01:53 AM

We definitely need more black moa chick kind of quests with interesting rewards.

#64 The_Blades

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:07 AM

View PostThe_Tree_Branch, on 06 December 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

Remind me, which dungeon let you get Crystalline swords and other items of similar rare skin quality with tokens?

...

i never talked about tokens,. i said random small chance of getting those great skins. read carefully before trying to troll kido.

tokens are a nice addition. but the random rare skin weapons were a nice addition to pve in gw1. now its all grinding for mats (including precursors)

And btw: chrystas, FoW, UW and sorrows furnace chests droped uncommon ones. Hoh chest gave rares.

Edited by The_Blades, 07 December 2012 - 02:08 AM.


#65 Trei

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:11 AM

View PostLordkrall, on 06 December 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:



But the thing is: Either we have to repeat stuff for our e-penis thingies. Or we would get them all without much work, which would lessen the achievement even more.

The only other real way is to have bosses drop them.
But that would still mean you have to repeat the instance over and over and over and over and over and over and over again to POSSIBLE get the item you want.
Those are far from the only ways to implement it.

Why not make short personal instanced encounters of exceptionally high challenge and difficulty instead?

Items gotten through incredible grind had no prestige value to me whatsoever, and I equate prestige with usually skill.

Edited by Trei, 07 December 2012 - 02:15 AM.


#66 xLOKIx0830

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:15 AM

View PostSoki, on 06 December 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

the majority of the game’s status symbols and cool items are gained from performing an easy task for an inordinate amount of time. This sums up my opinion, and why I think GW2 is not as good a game as it could be – but I implore you to read the rest of the post if you’re going to add to the discussion.

You have some fair points, and I do share your concerns. However, I believe you are looking at this from the wrong angle.

First of all, I like how the mystic forge items are at the moment. Having set recipes, no matter how expensive or excessive they are, will mean there will be a clear sign of progression for the player trying to obtain them, which is necessary. However, to me it seems there isn't enough of these items in the forge, especially relatively easy ones to get, and so a brand new lv 80 player is just thrown into this situation where he needs to get 350+ lodestones to get anything cool. Anet, in my opinion, desperately needs to add a lot more, easier, items to get in the forge for one, getting people introduced to using it, and two, close the gap between crafted exotics and mystic forge exotics, much like what ascended items are for.

In terms of grind, however, this game only becomes one when you make it so. One of this game's major strong-points is to have all the content available to you at all times. The whole point of this is so you can gather the materials you need for a cosmetic item while playing the modes and areas you enjoy (The game isn't fully at this point yet, but the basis and the philosophy are there). Having to get 350 molten lodestones for vulcanous wouldn't be so bad if molten lodestones or cores were easily obtainable in other areas of the game, such as PvP or WvWvW (like trading in glory or badges for cores). Anet has expressed that they want to introduce these aspects into more parts of the game, bu the real question is when this will happen.

Furthermore, the act of focusing on one goal will make that goal seem longer to get than if you weren't focusing on it. When people decide "I'm going to get full t3 cultural armor at level 80" and all they do is try to get it, they have just set themselves up for a long, long grinding game, and it becomes tiresome and boring. However, if they were to make that goal a long term one, like a legendary, then the game would still have enjoyment while still having a form of progression.

For instance, I have 2 tier 3 culturals on both my level 80s, and yet I have not spent more than 4 hours farming in the game. By just doing map completion and dungeons with friends, in about 3 weeks I got enough to buy both sets for my thief and warrior. I would have certainly gotten it faster if I just farmed orr for days on end, but I don't believe I would have had as much fun as I did just doing dungeons and map completion.

What this game needs is more engaging forms of content, which will eventually come in later patches, that reward players and help them progress towards their cosmetics.

#67 BrettM

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:05 AM

View PostMazingerZ, on 06 December 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

Because of the intrinsic value of the raw material beyond the finished product, re: grinding crafting levels
Yes, that's certainly true at lower levels where you get the value of the finished product plus the value of both character and crafting XP. I guess you could call it the price of apprenticeship, and I can live with that.

However, in my example with the Hardened Leather, you can't use that material in crafting until you are already level 400 and get no XP or levels at all from turning the raw mat into boot soles. The same problem happens when a level 400 crafter wants to craft for the market of lower-level buyers. The only value you get out of crafting at that point is the value of the finished product. Perhaps the solution is to allow a master crafter to make those same items using fewer materials, assuming that part of mastery is learning to minimize waste.

Edited by BrettM, 07 December 2012 - 03:07 AM.


#68 Guardian of the Light

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:53 AM

I'll agree with the OP that Anet hasn't provide a good challenge which rewards you in some way. No epic quest to gather random components in order to forge a great weapon, just random mats.

This kind of annoys me because I felt the quest to gear up to exotics was actually well done with multiple methods and a couple methods being fun. I earned half of my exotic armor through karma I gained from karma doing WvW and fought to capture the God temples so I spend that karma on exotic pieces. That's a pretty fun method of gearing up. But in order to get anything cosmetic or any ascended armor? Hope you have fun grinding mats.

I thought explorable mode dungeons would fill this niche but they're easy when everything has exotic gear, it's just a matter of grinding the dungeon enough to get the tokens. Other then deep levels of fractals (which even then involves grinding agony resistance) there's no real challenge in this game.

People tend of blame the mystic forge but I don't think it's our local genie's fault. It's just the methods of getting the stuff to throw in there that's boring.

What about an ascended piece of gear that you received by completing all the mini-dungeons and jumping puzzles in the game (maybe the explorer society mails you something that you toss in the mystic forge), that could be a fun quest. Or maybe adding some tough world boss and having his chest drop exotics. Or just a tough meta-event that takes a server effort to finish. Anything other then grinding.

I probably wouldn't hate ascended armor so much if there were more interesting methods of obtaining them other then grinding mats or grinding tokens. As it stands right now after you finish your quest to get exotics, the game stops being interesting.

#69 Lafiele

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:00 AM

I think it all boils down to patience. I have no hurry in building up my legendary since it's not going to give me a significant advantage in terms of stats. Also, being good with money is also a skill that many players do not have.

#70 pumpkin pie

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:43 AM

Question: i am not trolling, i just want to know, so i can forget about it or not depending on the answer.

these supposedly very nice must have armours/weapons that one has to grind for, do they have an equivalent with a different skin? same states different skin that one can get somewhere else by simply playing the game?

#71 ShadowsRequiem

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:45 AM

View PostThe_Tree_Branch, on 06 December 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

Remind me, which dungeon let you get Crystalline swords and other items of similar rare skin quality with tokens?

...

Sorrows Furnace.

#72 Soki

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:49 AM

View PostLafiele, on 07 December 2012 - 04:00 AM, said:

I think it all boils down to patience. I have no hurry in building up my legendary since it's not going to give me a significant advantage in terms of stats. Also, being good with money is also a skill that many players do not have.
I think it boils down to there being no alternative goals to accomplish in the game that actually challenge anybody.
Not to sound confrontational, but when you look at it like the quoted poster, it tends to overlook the actual problem.

#73 Lordkrall

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 05:30 AM

View Postpumpkin pie, on 07 December 2012 - 04:43 AM, said:

Question: i am not trolling, i just want to know, so i can forget about it or not depending on the answer.

these supposedly very nice must have armours/weapons that one has to grind for, do they have an equivalent with a different skin? same states different skin that one can get somewhere else by simply playing the game?

Yes they do.

#74 pumpkin pie

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 05:37 AM

View PostLordkrall, on 07 December 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

Yes they do.

nice. thanks for the info.

#75 Dasryn

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 05:54 AM

View Postpumpkin pie, on 07 December 2012 - 04:43 AM, said:

Question: i am not trolling, i just want to know, so i can forget about it or not depending on the answer.

these supposedly very nice must have armours/weapons that one has to grind for, do they have an equivalent with a different skin? same states different skin that one can get somewhere else by simply playing the game?

currently, Legendaries (the impressive grindy weapon/armor skins) ahave the same stats as Exotics and Exotics can be obtained within about a week of playing the game apparently.

**this will change however***

ANet has stated that once more Ascended gear gets released, Legendaries' stats will be bumped up to be on par with Ascended gear.

#76 Bryant Again

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:16 AM

It feels like most if not all of the cool 'loot' is tied to either a droprate or a timesink. Not really what I was looking forward to...

#77 DuskWolf

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:22 AM

View PostBryant Again, on 07 December 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

It feels like most if not all of the cool 'loot' is tied to either a droprate or a timesink. Not really what I was looking forward to...
Heh. Most of the necessary higher-end gear is tied to that, let alone the cool stuff. And those rop rates keep getting nerfed more and more all the time.

#78 Arquenya

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:52 AM

View PostFoxBat, on 06 December 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

Bottom line is Anet is not going to design substantial content that only a small handful of players can manage. They tried it back in Domain of Anguish and it didn't go over so well. Even Blizzard who you seem to have in mind with the era of server firsts, raids only a small portion of guilds could handle etc. is moving away from this in WoW, and yet they don't have any P2W type clause, too busy sucking up your subscription.
I can't see why not. After all we had FoW/UW in GW, which wasn't so bad. There's a lot of steps in between that and having tier 4, 5, 6 and 7 gear, each a prerequisite to get the next one. And let's not forget te horror of gettng a 25 man team with the right gear, skill setup and class balance.

I'm more worried if the current skill and playstyle setup actually allows for content that's player skill oriented. More lethal red circles and 1 shot bosses, there surely must be more to gaming than that?

Edited by Arquenya, 07 December 2012 - 10:53 AM.


#79 BrettM

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 01:29 PM

View PostBryant Again, on 07 December 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

It feels like most if not all of the cool 'loot' is tied to either a droprate or a timesink. Not really what I was looking forward to...
It wouldn't be cool, or as cool, if it wasn't rare. There are only three ways I can see to keep it rare: RNG, time sink, or a challenge that most players will never be able to overcome. The first two ways make the cool loot accessible to the entire player base, because anyone can hope to be lucky and anyone can eventually put in the time, even if it takes a year or two of casual play. The third way is generally resented as being elitist and a cheat of players who paid just as much money for the box that the highly-skilled players paid.

Do you know a fourth way? What do you propose?

#80 Bryant Again

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 01:47 PM

View PostBrettM, on 07 December 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

It wouldn't be cool, or as cool, if it wasn't rare. There are only three ways I can see to keep it rare: RNG, time sink, or a challenge that most players will never be able to overcome. The first two ways make the cool loot accessible to the entire player base, because anyone can hope to be lucky and anyone can eventually put in the time, even if it takes a year or two of casual play. The third way is generally resented as being elitist and a cheat of players who paid just as much money for the box that the highly-skilled players paid.

Do you know a fourth way? What do you propose?

Depends if it's for the sake of making the game or making the money. When looked from that angle, I think the answers are easy to couple together :P

Regardless of the outcome, this weird ordeal with the vertical progression still all feels really 'sneaky' to me. I don't like it.

#81 Gruunz

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:38 PM

View PostSoki, on 06 December 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

TO CONDENSE MY SENTIMENTS:
Good players are not rewarded for overcoming challenges – the majority of the game’s status symbols and cool items are gained from performing an easy task for an inordinate amount of time. This sums up my opinion, and why I think GW2 is not as good a game as it could be – but I implore you to read the rest of the post if you’re going to add to the discussion.

Sorry, I didn't read the rest of your post but I'll agree with your anymore. Yea, it would be nice if some more difficult challenges actually rewarded you cosmetically not just with stats. An example would be the Halloween Clock tower jumping puzzle, a lot of hate but regardless it had some difficulty to it. It would have been nice if you actually received a unique Halloween themed shoe skin for it. Instead of a exotic stated plain skin item.

#82 Fizzypop

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:10 PM

View PostShadowrose, on 07 December 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

How I love when people pull out the "everyone" card.

Lacking self confidence, are we? Learn to have an opinion of your own.

>.> Perhaps you should actually read the posts I've made over the last year...I'm one of the few in this forum that DOES have an opinion of my own. My comment was directed at you, but others like you as well. Y'all completely ignore what's written and make up some ridic shit about how no one wants to work for anything. You do realize that's not what was said in the OP? Not all of us want to face roll grind then buy it all. That's something my 6 year old plays not me as an adult. I want to work for things using my skill. How silly~!

Edited by Fizzypop, 07 December 2012 - 08:12 PM.





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