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counter to sword mesmer


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#1 mofogie

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 03:20 PM

The sword mesmer's burst, (illusionary leap, swap, blurred flurry, mind wrack with 3 clones), is a deadly one.  I escape it using shadowstep.  However, the cooldown on the mesmer's burst is as little as 10 seconds.  

i can't think of too many ways to stop another round of the burst.  Lucky dodging on the leap?  evading with death blossom if you get caught by immobilize?   restealthing if you have only 1 condition?

thoughts please

#2 mofogie

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 12:45 PM

an update:

i have found the best way is to just pay attention to when the clones start moving to you to explode, giving you a warning sign to dodge, or  use an evasion skill.  I used pistol whip currently, to counter the flurry, and took a fraction of the damage.  It's not a great option, using so much iniative just to stop a burst that will come again soon, but it's better than nothing

#3 pestizide

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 02:27 AM

Short bow. ;)

#4 mofogie

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:14 PM

update: yes i think shortbow was the best option, as the evade skill costs the least amount of iniative, and also shortbow has longer range than illusionary leap.  pistol whip also, not too bad.  I think you're correct: pay attention to the closing in, that's key.  although that can be tough when you're already in melee range.

#5 dynia666

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 10:53 AM

dodge ?! -.-

#6 mofogie

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 03:56 PM

i addressed this in another thread, but one of hte big things of mesmers being overpowered is their short cooldown on being able to burst again, and also reset the fight.   I have great success in dodging/evading mesmer bursts, but good ones will keep trying and keep resetting the fight via stealth and ether feast, until they get a successful one.  And it doesn't take long either, maybe 12-15 seconds before they can try again.  That's not even enough time for your dodge bar to refill, and you've got to dodge phantasmal attacks too!  That's typcially what kills me, the phantasms.  I almost never get blurred frenzied, and i kill off phantasms, but their first attack will do some damage, and over a long fight, it will usually add up for more than 10k on me.  

fortunately there arent many great mesmers out there, but against the good ones, they will know how to keep resetting the fight at their pace.

#7 dynia666

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 04:26 PM

how you beat memser ? simple use your power of love and friendship

#8 asmodess

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 04:35 PM

I don`t shatter my clones , illusions etc and leave them up doing damage , only time i shatter 1 is if i need to evade and sword 2 is on cd
or the battle has changed and i need to stun or just feel like causing you grief with confusion .  other wise i let them die naturaly  since i have damage bonus to them being up .

#9 mofogie

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:30 PM

View Postasmodess, on 28 December 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

I don`t shatter my clones , illusions etc and leave them up doing damage , only time i shatter 1 is if i need to evade and sword 2 is on cd
or the battle has changed and i need to stun or just feel like causing you grief with confusion .  other wise i let them die naturaly  since i have damage bonus to them being up .

i would say mesmers who do this are even more dangerous.  the ones that shatter and leap/frenzy are entirely predictable and easily avoided.  But yes, this is why it's kinda overpowered... because even without the burst, there's still alot of consistent damage being put out, and you're either forced to destroy the clones, (which are easily replaced), or take that damage.  

i'm not really sure what a good solution is, maybe some small nerfs across the board?

#10 heatrr

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:43 PM

View Postmofogie, on 28 December 2012 - 11:30 PM, said:

i'm not really sure what a good solution is, maybe some small nerfs across the board?

Yep, that is always a solution: When you cannot beat them, nerf them....

#11 XRay

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:54 PM

let me get this straight - a thief, the only profession without cooldowns and with a wide range of stealthing skills is complaining about mesmers having short cooldowns and having 1-2 stealth skills? let me get my popcorn and watch how this comedy develops lol.

#12 Wifflebottom

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:02 AM

Is this a serious thread? I really can't tell, the OP is a freaking THIEF...

Edited by Wifflebottom, 29 December 2012 - 06:12 PM.


#13 Obbdot

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:05 AM

The sword/staff mesmer is one of the best professions to solo a backstab thief. I'm sorry to say, but if you're a glass canon backstab thieves and you're fighting a really good sword+staff mesmer, you're gonna have to catch him unaware with mug+backstab+clock&dagger+backstab, otherwise you're in for a though ride.

I've played both, and I partly designed my mesmer as a backstab thief counter and a though tanky portal bomber/dungeon crawler. If you're going full auto attack, I'll pop every 2-3 seconds a brand new chaos armor with either ethereal combo fields and leap finishers or staff #4. I'll do my sword combo to immobilize you when I can and blurred frenzy you. I've got enough thoughness and vitality to stand many of your hits. If you dare grab a shortbow, I have 3 reflection skills and chaos armor, and if you're a full berserker glass canon thief, you do so much damage you'll kill yourself in a heartbeat.

My only advance is be patient and catch the mesmer at first unaware and do your combos on him before he can react. Even if he does react fast enough, he'll be down 50-75% of his health and will have to waste his healing skill right away, leaving you more chances to win thereafter. Another trick is don't get fooled by illusions and reflections skills. Temporal curtain and the spinning fantasm from the focus can do reflection when traits are chosen in consequence. Null field and feedback, when traits are chosen so, can be a world of confusion and reflections as well. Watch the buff bar. If you see a purple tornado-looking buff, don't attack the mesmer. Wait until it wears out. If you attack the mesmer while this buff (chaos armor) is on, you'll get frozen or confusion stacks on you, something you really don't want as a glass canon thief.

It's more about being patient and opportunistic rather than trying to win a straight up face to face duel. Sword+staff mesmers are great in duels against glassy classes, no matter what they choose as a off-hand with the sword, since they're all great in their own ways. Since I do only WvW and not sPvP, I have a soft spot for the focus and the reflection traits.

If the mesmer get his full defensive mode rocking and all his combo fields and buffs ready, there isn't much you can do as a backstab thief, unless the mesmer plays bad or messes up. Go hide a way, just 1 or 2 minutes. Let the mesmer forget you and focus on something else, then come back and * him up.

Still, in my opinion, staff+sword mesmer is one of the best backstab thief counter (in 1v1), so you might as well recognize this and go to another target if you can't beat it. Some mesmers are extremely quick to react and won't even let you finish your double backstab combo, as they will either activate an evasion skill or staff #2 and then pop automatically a chaos armor or an immobilize. Everything is on low cooldowns for the mesmer, as it all comes from weapon skill rather than utilities.

#14 ShezuTsukai

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:21 AM

To get back on track since the last two posts were completely irrelevant; CnD has only had marginal success for me. Like pets it appears the clones track you in stealth at least some of the time.

#15 RandolfRa

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 02:44 AM

(I only do WvW, no spvp perspective)
If you are a typical high dps spike thief, then offence is best defence here. Do not wait for the mesmer to land his combo. Instead, stealth and land your own combo as soon as you can. If it fails, shadow step away and stealth.* Then try again. Basilisk Venom helps as it keeps the mesmer from (immeditately) countering with Blurred Frenzy.

*Here you must be fast as the mesmer will try to counter attack should your combo fail.

Personally I do following against glass thiefs: I stealth when I'm some 1600 or so away from my target, then blink right on to them and spike with 3 mind wracks and swap to staff for ice blast. Then I follow with chaos storm if the thief endured the spike. If you see a mesmer trying this, counter stealth and you will have the upper hand.

Edited by RandolfRa, 29 December 2012 - 03:05 AM.


#16 mofogie

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 11:34 AM

well i'm glad i'm on the same page, with a guy that plays mes and thief.  I've dabbled in mes, not a pro, but i am fully aware of its capabilities. and to the guy that said 1-2 ways to stealth... i can already count 4 off the top of my head, as well as 2 invulnerabilites, and 1 escape.  plus ether feast heals more than shadow refuge, and is on 2/3 the cooldown, on top of a mes having 4k more hp.  You do the math.

i do many specs as thief, not just backstab, and not just gankers.  My fave is acrobatic shortbow for spvp.  It's also the best i've done against mes, but again, all the mes has to do is keep sendnig out illusionary berserkers, and keep stalling.  after a couple of them, that's already more than 10k damage.

i dont really expect much, i'm just here to see if others agree, or if i'm missing a tactic, but it seems people agree: mes is still king of 1v1.

Edited by mofogie, 29 December 2012 - 11:34 AM.


#17 The Shadow

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 03:50 PM

View Postdynia666, on 23 December 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

dodge ?! -.-

12345

#18 Iratus Mumbo

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 03:29 AM

Call me a noob, but how do you even know which character is the real one??  I might be able to do better if I could tell them apart but they are identical to me :/

#19 Sinnacle

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 12:41 PM

Mesmers Sword mesmer will do the same rotation usually to burst you down.  If you are glass your probably dead unless your quick after the opening burst they will probably decoy and begin to move away from you pulling out their GS or Staff.  I don't play D/D so I wouldn't know how you get them honestly.  I play P/D so I put the bleeds on mesmer and wait for them to come out of stealth.  If you have trouble recognizing which one is the real mesmer and you are in stealth stand by one of the clones as soon as your stealth wears off CnD it until you can figure out which one is the real mes.    

I played most of my hours as mesmer since start now I main thief so I never really have a problem with mesmers.  Alot more mesmers are traiting Glamour skills blind and reflect which is really good and they stand inside those fields.

#20 mofogie

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 01:50 PM

i dont go p/d much, i dont like its style, i view it as a great 1v1 dueling spec, but it doesnt roll in a whole lot of actual kiling because of its low dmg outupt.  but now that you bring it up, it sounds like a great  way to counter mes, i may have to experiment more then.  

as for which one is the real mes?  pay attention to lifebars.  a clone's lifebar will be dmgd significantly if you even hit it with an autoattack.  

also movement patterns and buffs/debuffs.  

also if you ctrl+T  the real mes, often the targeting stays on him when he reeappears

#21 Snowulf

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 02:00 PM

View Postmofogie, on 28 December 2012 - 11:30 PM, said:

i would say mesmers who do this are even more dangerous.  the ones that shatter and leap/frenzy are entirely predictable and easily avoided.  But yes, this is why it's kinda overpowered... because even without the burst, there's still alot of consistent damage being put out, and you're either forced to destroy the clones, (which are easily replaced), or take that damage.  

i'm not really sure what a good solution is, maybe some small nerfs across the board?

A bit old of a post, but I fell off my couch laughing when I read this.
A old phrase came to mind that just fit this like a glove;" Pot calling the kettle black".




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