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The "Endgame" is a myth


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#1 Poetwarrior68

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:44 AM

I've read a number of posts on these forums; the ascended gear drama, the endless and completely unproductive GW2 versus other games discussions and the more productive what can we do to fix GW2 posts but they all are based on the same failed assumption about MMO endgames.

I understand we all want an endgame. I think primarily because you make good friends playing MMOs and you'd like to keep playing with them so you'd like the game to justify your continued involvement but every attempt I've seen at never ending content has boiled down to repeating the same content over and over and over again usually with some sort of gear scaling reward system attached. I played Anarchy Online and that endgame came down to endlessly killing mobs called hecklers at the edges of the high level zones. It was aweful but AO had some geat sandbox elements to it and I was in a really fun guild so I stuck it for a couple years. Subsequently I played EQ, SWG, City of Heros, LOTRO, Age of Conan, SW:TOR and WoW and they were all a lot a fun a first and got a lot less fun as you went along. WoW I'll give the most credit to as it stayed fun longer and had better expansions. However in the end there was no real "endgame". Now it's dead regardless of the millions of people in denial.

Is an endgame even a reasonable expectation? GW2 took 5 years to create with a well funded and experienced development team. There are players that blow through that 5 years of content in one month. Unless somebody invents a new coding language that makes it easier to create graphics, voice overs and unique mechanics this is a formula that never works out. GW2 cost $60 and the standard for the industry is 1 hour of playable content per dollar. Even the people I know that bought GW2 and then went back to WoW got their 60 hours out of it (all of whom have now quit WoW btw).

In this context I understand the Ascended gear drama. It made no sense; it's only a couple gear slots the gear differnce between ascended and exotic gear is small. Most importantly it's not gated content. You can experience the whole game without the gear. However, when people saw it they reacted based on the gear grinds they experienced in other games. I have to agree been there done it don't want to do it again.

So what is the solution? My proposal is a change in attitude. There are improvements that can be made to GW2 I think with a little work WvWvW could be improved change the mechanics of attacking keeps/castles made ot be less door versus player and more pvp (scaling ladders?), improve the drop rate of badges and add some additional gear options. However iit will become boring eventually. As an alternative just expect that there is a best before date with all heavily structured MMOs. Go play something else, come back when they release new content that interests you and wait till an expansion comes out.

What you should stop doing is complaining that there is nothing to do because the dev team just might listen and put in the same tired solution as the MMOs before it endlessly repeating content.

I realize there is another solution building a game where all the content is player based (aka Eve online) so there is more potential for endless play but GW2 is not that game.

#2 Arquenya

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:59 AM

View PostPoetwarrior68, on 07 December 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

I realize there is another solution building a game where all the content is player based (aka Eve online) so there is more potential for endless play but GW2 is not that game.
Also: sandboxes are a myth as you can only do what the limited tools the devs allow you to do.

#3 BrettM

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 01:06 PM

View PostPoetwarrior68, on 07 December 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

There are players that blow through that 5 years of content in one month.
Which I maintain is impossible, even playing 24x7. Have these players actually heard every conversation, done every jumping puzzle, gotten every achievement, done every DE in every zone, played every profession, etc.? I think not. What they've done is cherry picked the content and done only those things that they perceive as most rewarding. When they say "there's nothing left to do", they really mean "there's nothing left that I want to do."

Certainly we can't expect all types of content to appeal to all types of player, so skipping over some content is a perfectly reasonable thing for any of us to do, and we will ALL eventually run out of content we want to do. But I don't have much sympathy for those who focus with laser-precision on the content that produces maximum reward. Content that produces the rarest, most desirable rewards is going to be the smallest amount of content in any game by definition, so it isn't a surprise if someone can burn through that in a month. However, I think most of us find some reward in playing the game itself, not just in having the most/shiniest bling, and I think there is plenty of content left for us.

I've been playing since the beginning and more than casually, yet I haven't even gotten a character to Cursed Shore yet. I expect the original content will keep me busy for months yet. So the "nothing to do" players are not the only ones out there, just the noisiest ones.

#4 Coren

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 01:13 PM

Inb4 someone else says it:"the cake is a lie".

Endgame is a state of mind and a goal. If for some, endgame means fractals, let them at it, I'm VERY happy just playing a couple hours a week now with 2 80s on full exotics and play new stuff as it comes out. If worse comes to worse, I'd have played a fun game for a while and that's enough for me... And go back to GW1 lol.

#5 Arquenya

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 01:19 PM

View PostBrettM, on 07 December 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

Which I maintain is impossible, even playing 24x7. Have these players actually heard every conversation, done every jumping puzzle, gotten every achievement, done every DE in every zone, played every profession, etc.? I think not. What they've done is cherry picked the content and done only those things that they perceive as most rewarding. When they say "there's nothing left to do", they really mean "there's nothing left that I want to do."

Certainly we can't expect all types of content to appeal to all types of player, so skipping over some content is a perfectly reasonable thing for any of us to do, and we will ALL eventually run out of content we want to do. But I don't have much sympathy for those who focus with laser-precision on the content that produces maximum reward. Content that produces the rarest, most desirable rewards is going to be the smallest amount of content in any game by definition, so it isn't a surprise if someone can burn through that in a month. However, I think most of us find some reward in playing the game itself, not just in having the most/shiniest bling, and I think there is plenty of content left for us.

I've been playing since the beginning and more than casually, yet I haven't even gotten a character to Cursed Shore yet. I expect the original content will keep me busy for months yet. So the "nothing to do" players are not the only ones out there, just the noisiest ones.
Well by the same philosophy people IRL can't possibly be bored because they haven't counted all the stones of all the buildings. Completing checklists just isn't something that keeps everyone excited. I've always said that achievements are poor substitutes for "real" content (and I still agree with myself ^_^).

I'm not saying I'm bored in the game btw, but a little more content that would callenge your creativity and player skill wouldn't be so bad imo.

Edited by Arquenya, 07 December 2012 - 01:21 PM.


#6 Shadowrose

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 01:28 PM

endgame is mostly something to keep busy the players that already hit the max level / got decent items. It must be rewarding to do, fun, and have low chance of becoming monotonous.

it's the thing that you're supposed to do once you're done leveling.

"Okay, I finally got some gear and I'm the max level. I think I'm ready to do X"

Fractals are a good example of endgame content, and there's also spvp and wvw. Tbh GW2 is nothing more than a sort of casual game to log in maybe some hour or 2 and then log out again. And there's nothing wrong with that.

#7 Bryant Again

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:05 PM

Guild Wars 2 has an incredible world. If they're going to encourage us to replay the same areas over and over again, make us replay through the whole world.

#8 Zero_Soulreaver

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:07 PM

Ok, I agree with some points made but other points are extremely exaggerated.  It's always the same train of thinking I see in these threads, 5 people do not make up millions guys.

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GW2 took 5 years to create with a well funded and experienced development team. There are players that blow through that 5 years of content in one month. Unless somebody invents a new coding language that makes it easier to create graphics,
voice overs and unique mechanics this is a formula that never works out. GW2 cost $60 and the standard for the industry is 1 hour of playable content per dollar. Even the people I know that bought GW2 and then went back to WoW got their 60 hours out of it (all of whom have now quit WoW btw).
This is an unfair assumption. It took the devs 5 years to create but to compare that flat out to gameplay hours is insane.  It takes a long time to actually create every grain of sand and structure, it's not the same as going through it and playing on it.

That's like saying you took 15 yrs to build a new model car and it should take people 15 years to break said car, it just doesn't always work this way in the real world.  Manpower hours never directly= hours of use.

Quote

WoW I'll give the most credit to as it stayed fun longer and had better expansions. However in the end there was no real "endgame". Now it's dead regardless of the millions of people in denial.
I don't agree, these "millions in denial" are actually doing what they want to do.  I hate how everyone acts as if people are so stupid and brainwashed when in reality you just don't agree with what they enjoy as "fun".  If someone likes apples and you like oranges just let the other do what they wish.  Besides, their are a lot more new WoW players than before.

In fact I wish ppl would really stop bashing WoW for no reason and just focus on GW2.

Quote

In this context I understand the Ascended gear drama. It made no sense; it's only a couple gear
slots the gear differnce between ascended and exotic gear is small.
The thing with this is that most people don't care about what ascended armor is today. They care what it will become and can change GW2 into.  The bigger picture is will this have an effect on this game within 5 months or not.

The world in GW2 isn't the key thing, it's the gameplay.  People don't care how lavish your farm looks that you took 5 yrs to make, they care how it feels when you play on it.

Edited by Zero_Soulreaver, 07 December 2012 - 02:11 PM.


#9 jimmie51

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:47 PM

I think the biggest issue in end game comes down to the people that play it and more importantly the people you play it with.  It doesn't matter if it is day one or the complete end game.  In my opinion the success of an MMO comes down to the people playing it and more importantly the people you are playing it with.

When GW2 started we decided not to play the beta.  We wanted to start from day one being surprised and enjoy it with the only expectation being to "discover" the game with great people.  This is the best decision I think we could have made.  GW2 has it's issues just like any other game, but the fact that I am playing it with great people with positive attitudes makes those things seem unimportant now.  We just go play it and let things unfold and it has been a HUGE breath of fresh air.  The beautiful thing about an MMO is now and always has been the people.  It even says it in the name.  massivly MULTIPLAYER online game.  If you are struggling with the game maybe take a step back and look who you are playing it with.  Are they always being negitive?  Are you playing it alone?  Do you have an active guild?  Maybe I am totally off on this one, but I really think you could play a subpar game (not saying GW2 is subpar btw we really enjoy it) with good positive people and really enjoy yourself.

If you are not having fun maybe your just not with the right people.  and maybe you came in with the mindset that this game should be certain ways.  By taking a lets enjoy the experience of the new game with great people we are loving it and having a blast.

#10 raspberry jam

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:03 PM

View PostPoetwarrior68, on 07 December 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

I played Anarchy Online and that endgame came down to endlessly killing mobs called hecklers at the edges of the high level zones. It was aweful but AO had some geat sandbox elements to it and I was in a really fun guild so I stuck it for a couple years. Subsequently I played EQ, SWG, City of Heros, LOTRO, Age of Conan, SW:TOR and WoW and they were all a lot a fun a first and got a lot less fun as you went along. WoW I'll give the most credit to as it stayed fun longer and had better expansions. However in the end there was no real "endgame". Now it's dead regardless of the millions of people in denial.
This is because all these games had reward driven design. The content wasn't fun, simply put, but the rewards were. But rewards get boring after a while. Meanwhile GW1 stayed fun for years and years, and only became less fun when they added more reward driven stuff like EotN titles.

View PostBrettM, on 07 December 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

Which I maintain is impossible, even playing 24x7. Have these players actually heard every conversation, done every jumping puzzle, gotten every achievement, done every DE in every zone, played every profession, etc.? I think not. What they've done is cherry picked the content and done only those things that they perceive as most rewarding. When they say "there's nothing left to do", they really mean "there's nothing left that I want to do."
So are you saying that these players should start doing things that they don't want to do...?

#11 sty0pa

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:04 PM

I've always felt that the 'next hurdle' for these sorts of games are procedural world generation with embedded 'nuggets' of designed content, which really would make content endless.  It's a HUGE hurdle, but with current systems I believe it's doable.

I think I've posted this elsewhere but imagine if terrain was generated synthetically, in 'tiles' of about 1200 hectares (about a 2000m radius circle) or about 5 sq miles?  The terrain geometry is generated from the 'start values' of any already-mapped adjacent tiles, and the geology, caves, rivers, forest, biomes, etc all generated from that.  (Dwarf Fortress already does this, really.)  This 'data' is flagged to your toon when you cross into it.  (So if you don't make it back alive, or don't tell anyone about your travels - ie share the data - it's erased and rewritten when the next person gets there so you can't benefit from stuff you found then died...).

Couple this to an algorithm that would allow the distribution of randomly-generated instances like caves, ruins, etc.  (Again, if you 'find' it, you might share that data publicly when you get back, or...you might just share it with your guild as a secret place for you guys to go back and exploit...)

Add in the ongoing creation of 'crafted' content made by devs the classical way, that would be sprinkled around the unexplored wilderness for people to find.

This would allow people to really explore forever.  No endgame, no limits, ever.

#12 Arquenya

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:23 PM

View Poststy0pa, on 07 December 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

I've always felt that the 'next hurdle' for these sorts of games are procedural world generation with embedded 'nuggets' of designed content, which really would make content endless.  It's a HUGE hurdle, but with current systems I believe it's doable.

This would allow people to really explore forever.  No endgame, no limits, ever.
I also thought of this kind of content, as dungeons and other things are always getting very predictable. Diablo I aleady had some randomization in its dungeons; why not have content in GW2 where you just don't know what to expect what's behind the next wall or what lives in the next forest??

It could potentially get you unlimited, challenging content.

#13 Coren

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:23 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 07 December 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

This is because all these games had reward driven design. The content wasn't fun, simply put, but the rewards were. But rewards get boring after a while. Meanwhile GW1 stayed fun for years and years, and only became less fun when they added more reward driven stuff like EotN titles.

So are you saying that these players should start doing things that they don't want to do...?

Always liked your posts jam, direct and without boxing gloves :)

I think he meant that when people say there's nothing left to do and don't want to do anything they don't want to do, they shouldn't complain about the lack of content.

#14 Arquenya

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:24 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 07 December 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

This is because all these games had reward driven design. The content wasn't fun, simply put, but the rewards were. But rewards get boring after a while. Meanwhile GW1 stayed fun for years and years, and only became less fun when they added more reward driven stuff like EotN titles.
Yes I agree that the fun should mainly lie in the process and means and ways, not in the result.

#15 Vysander

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:28 PM

View Poststy0pa, on 07 December 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

I've always felt that the 'next hurdle' for these sorts of games are procedural world generation with embedded 'nuggets' of designed content, which really would make content endless.  It's a HUGE hurdle, but with current systems I believe it's doable.

I think I've posted this elsewhere but imagine if terrain was generated synthetically, in 'tiles' of about 1200 hectares (about a 2000m radius circle) or about 5 sq miles?  The terrain geometry is generated from the 'start values' of any already-mapped adjacent tiles, and the geology, caves, rivers, forest, biomes, etc all generated from that.  (Dwarf Fortress already does this, really.)  This 'data' is flagged to your toon when you cross into it.  (So if you don't make it back alive, or don't tell anyone about your travels - ie share the data - it's erased and rewritten when the next person gets there so you can't benefit from stuff you found then died...).

Couple this to an algorithm that would allow the distribution of randomly-generated instances like caves, ruins, etc.  (Again, if you 'find' it, you might share that data publicly when you get back, or...you might just share it with your guild as a secret place for you guys to go back and exploit...)



Theres a reason a game like minecraft has such low graphics, yet takes so many resources.

I dont specialize in programming, but i have a feeling this would take years to make it work fluently. Especially if it were somehow "player" based generation like i think your'e saying. Just the logistics of this "data" sharing among people in other maps/guild let alone others in the map you're on....

*edit

Arquenya mentioned it. This would work great for dungeons. But the system in diablo was, you get one of x number of map configs. Even D2 wasn't truly random map generation.

This isn't to say i wouldn't like to see a system like this. I just don't know how practical it is, especially to introduce this system as an afterthought to a game.

Edited by Vysander, 07 December 2012 - 03:47 PM.


#16 raspberry jam

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:59 PM

View PostCoren, on 07 December 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

Always liked your posts jam, direct and without boxing gloves :)

I think he meant that when people say there's nothing left to do and don't want to do anything they don't want to do, they shouldn't complain about the lack of content.
Hehe yeah, ninja don't need boxing gloves :cool:

Yes I know what he meant, but then again, that's what you pay for when you buy a game. It's not like, lel I hope I get something fun... NO. It is: gimme fun because I paid for it. Now, yes, MMOs give you a lot of hours per $ compared to other games...
But that's not a fair way of counting. You let MMOs get away with things that you'd never tolerate in other games. You can complete the Gears of War 3 campaign in a few hours, for example, but it's 100% action packed (except the beginning maybe...) and that's what you paid for. I have honestly not played a single MMO, including GW1, that didn't make me say "fine I will do this boring thing because I know it's fun later on".

#17 Coren

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:26 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 07 December 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

Hehe yeah, ninja don't need boxing gloves :cool:

Yes I know what he meant, but then again, that's what you pay for when you buy a game. It's not like, lel I hope I get something fun... NO. It is: gimme fun because I paid for it. Now, yes, MMOs give you a lot of hours per $ compared to other games...
But that's not a fair way of counting. You let MMOs get away with things that you'd never tolerate in other games. You can complete the Gears of War 3 campaign in a few hours, for example, but it's 100% action packed (except the beginning maybe...) and that's what you paid for. I have honestly not played a single MMO, including GW1, that didn't make me say "fine I will do this boring thing because I know it's fun later on".

Entirely with you on that one. It's the same for some games that are universally said to be bad but you personally feel you got your money's worth. I absolutely LOVE the Starship Troopers FPS (less than the RTS from bluetongue but still) only for the waves of bugs you get to slaughter at the same time. The writing was atrocious, the graphics are appalling, the AI is pathetic and all the cutscenes are all taken from the movies. But still I got my money's worth from what I was expecting.

I'm enjoying my time on GW2, I feel like I got my money's worth, whether ANet will be able to stay afloat with people like me who casually strolls through the non grind, we'll see.

#18 DuskWolf

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:28 PM

A straw-man topic?

That's got to be some kind of first.

OP: If you're talking about people like me, we never wanted endgame in particular. We wanted a power plateau. The power plateau has absolutely nothing at all to do with an end game. Saying that a power plateau is like endgame is like saying all of a Grand Theft Auto game from the moment you turn it on is endgame, when it clearly isn't.

We don't want a game where the outcome is constantly decided by stats, and where you win or lose because of your numbers, rather than because of your skill. That leads to a game where you grind for gear in order to win, because bigger numbers equal victory. What that means is that you're grinding for victory; Which is more commonly known as time > skill.

#19 Baldur The Bold

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:43 PM

I think most people including myself felt that there would be "endgame" content after reaching lvl 80. If the climactic endgame content was supposed to be pressing 2 to fire a cannon then that has to be the biggest let down in gaming history. I think most people felt that there would be engaging dungeon runs or missons(quests) like gw1 had to keep the majority of the populace interested and happy. Fractals, while seemingly inserted to fill that need has done nothing but fracture the community into tiers.

I welcome difficult dungeons or quests. Not because of rewards but because it would keep me interested in a game that has little to offer after hitting 80. It seems all the fun is in the journey only to find the destination lacking.

Jumping puzzles are somewhat fun but super mario isnt my thing really. I know there are other things to do in the game but the fundamental mechanic of the game is combat/exploration. Dungeons provide both of those needs but seem to be lacking in direction.

I think there will be changes that meet expectations for everyone, but like OP said it takes time to develop.

Edited by Baldur The Bold, 07 December 2012 - 04:45 PM.


#20 Magi

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 05:17 PM

View PostDuskWolf, on 07 December 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

A straw-man topic?

That's got to be some kind of first.

OP: If you're talking about people like me, we never wanted endgame in particular. We wanted a power plateau. The power plateau has absolutely nothing at all to do with an end game. Saying that a power plateau is like endgame is like saying all of a Grand Theft Auto game from the moment you turn it on is endgame, when it clearly isn't.

We don't want a game where the outcome is constantly decided by stats, and where you win or lose because of your numbers, rather than because of your skill. That leads to a game where you grind for gear in order to win, because bigger numbers equal victory. What that means is that you're grinding for victory; Which is more commonly known as time > skill.

It gets exceedingly tiresome reading the same old "slippery slope" crying over and over again on the forums. It is not, and I cannot state this firmly enough, a valid logical progression. In order for the slippery slope fallacy to be true, you need to factually establish that each event does, indeed, lead to the proceeding event, ending eventually at your projected outcome. Since none of the events leading to massive gear power differentials are present nor in the works, you cannot say that adding ascended gear/legendary gear leads to the aforementioned power differential. In other words, there is absolutely no evidence pointing towards a traditional MMO gear creep system. All anyone has offered are prophetic predictions of "just you wait, I'm going to be right and everyone will be sorry!" Until there is more concrete evidence pointing towards gear creep (say, for instance, markedly more powerful gear, that takes a substantially longer time investment, than the legendary tier), no one can accurately predict the outcome. So, stop bleating on about the slippery slope because you look like a whinging infant.

At any rate, let's have a look at the gear situation objectively. Firstly, ANet implemented legendary weapons. They're technically a tier ahead of exotic weaponry in the current hierarchy and, therefore, would logically be more powerful. Now, apply that to armor. If legendary weapons exist, then is it not logical to assume legendary armor should/will exist, too? Furthermore, you've probably noticed the time-investment and (in the future) power jump between exotic and legendary gear. It would be handy if the differential was lessened, so as to preserve the small power jump between tiers. Wait a moment, isn't that what ascended gear is meant to do? I do believe it is. Since they're incrementally adding the mechanics to obtain ascended tier gear, the only place to obtain it is via the forge or from Fractals (which my guild affectionately calls CITIZENS). It is of the utmost importance to understand that this gear will be obtainable from other means. Once again, we do not know the difficulty/time investment of these methods yet, so we cannot speculate with any accuracy the results.

Finally, I'd like to ask you what exactly would ascended gear impact? Surely not general PvE. Your ability to tag event mobs isn't inhibited by your gear. I would know because I levelled a char from 60-80 via Plinx runs. Furthermore, its impact on W3 is minimal at best. Especially considering the focus on larger confrontations. Sure, individual fights do occur, and often, at that, but you're not going to all of a sudden start losing supply camps/towers/keeps because a zerg of better geared players showed up. There are no resists in this game and players are all scaled to 80 in W3, so please point out where your performance would be detrimentally impacted by a 2% stat increase. Finally, ascended gear has absolutely no impact on s/tPvP.

ANYWAYS, on to the topic at hand. I do believe there is an active and healthy endgame. The difficulty is pinpointing where exactly this lies, as it is unique to each and every player. I, personally, spread my endgame activities between Dungeons, s/tPvP, and W3. I do not think there is a lack of content, just a myopic appreciation and exploitation of the game's mechanics. At some point, I think people have to realize that maybe GW2 isn't for them. I've had multiple guildies return to Aion because they didn't enjoy the fact that they couldn't sit in an area and endlessly grind mobs to level efficiently. At the time I was quite frankly blown away, but if all you've played are Korean MMO Grindfests, then that is what you enjoy. GW2 is not this. I also think people are grossly understating the potential of Dungeons. GW1 had a very, very competitive and healthy speed clearing community. Admittedly, the rewards from the areas you typically farmed were rarer than those found in GW2s dungeons. However, it would be nice to see a return of this sort of mentality. The sheer number of build combinations that GW2 offers lends itself very well to theorycrafting, something which really shines when you wish to complete an area in the most expedient and efficient manner. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I think it's an important alternative that not many people have looked into yet.

TL;DR: I'd encourage you to read my post, if only to help create a healthy debate, but here's the shortened version anyways. The Slippery Slope is a fallacy. It is completely and utterly incorrect due to the absolute lack of evidence behind the arguments. Ascended gear is meant to bridge the gap between current exotic and current/future legendary gear. No more, no less. Lastly, there is a healthy endgame present, but it's up to each person to find what it is for them.

Edited by Magi, 07 December 2012 - 05:18 PM.


#21 Zero_Soulreaver

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 05:48 PM

I think what really hurt the game in this regard is Anet saying "the entire game is endgame". This was the dumbest thing I have ever heard.  It just means you will be doing the same crap you were doing at lower levels when you hit max level.  Not many gamers want this in their MMO because it makes them then say "well why are their level requirements in the first place?"

I think Anet misunderstand what "endgame" is even about.  It's not about everyone being even and doing low level content at a higher level. It's about making your higher level feel, play different than lower levels. In Gw2 nothing changes between lv60 and 80, you are still doing the same exact stuff you did before.

It's not always about power in particular, just average doings such as quests and exploring should be different to some measure.  When you hit max level people should not be saying "nothing to do" because that shows how bad the design is of your "endgame" content.  I don't care if you consider these people just complainers or whatever.  If someone can say these things and have them hold some legit weight it's a design issue in my eyes.

#22 Juanele

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 06:01 PM

endgame in an mmo is a misnomer

#23 karekiz

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 06:09 PM

View PostPoetwarrior68, on 07 December 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

WoW I'll give the most credit to as it stayed fun longer and had better expansions. However in the end there was no real "endgame". Now it's dead regardless of the millions of people in denial.

Wait, are you saying WoW is dead?  I might be wrong here so feel free to point that out, but if you are indeed saying wow is "dead" that is one of the most laughable things I heard today...

#24 raspberry jam

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 06:24 PM

View PostZero_Soulreaver, on 07 December 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

I think what really hurt the game in this regard is Anet saying "the entire game is endgame". This was the dumbest thing I have ever heard.  It just means you will be doing the same crap you were doing at lower levels when you hit max level.  Not many gamers want this in their MMO because it makes them then say "well why are their level requirements in the first place?"

I think Anet misunderstand what "endgame" is even about.  It's not about everyone being even and doing low level content at a higher level. It's about making your higher level feel, play different than lower levels. In Gw2 nothing changes between lv60 and 80, you are still doing the same exact stuff you did before.

It's not always about power in particular, just average doings such as quests and exploring should be different to some measure.  When you hit max level people should not be saying "nothing to do" because that shows how bad the design is of your "endgame" content.  I don't care if you consider these people just complainers or whatever.  If someone can say these things and have them hold some legit weight it's a design issue in my eyes.
I think this is the best post I've read all day, and that includes my own. I wish there was some way of liking it twice because I'd do it.

Making "the entire game the endgame" only makes sense if you don't start off doing menial crappy things.

#25 Ellipsis

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 06:31 PM

Spoiler

Edited by Feathermoore, 07 December 2012 - 07:19 PM.
this is known as quote wars. Do not split posts up into little bits to pick and choose. It looks ugly and fractures discussion.


#26 Magi

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 07:01 PM

View PostEllipsis, on 07 December 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

Why? It would be logical to assume that Legendary gear would have better stats, however, this deviates from how GW1 set up their loot system, which was a major selling point for people who bought the previous game. In GW1 there were three tiers of weapons that all could have max stats: blue, purple, and gold, and you could adjust the stats of the weapons using inscriptions and weapon modifiers. Cosmetic appearance was what GW1 used to differentiate the loot, not stats. I don’t see why GW2 needs to add two new tiers of stats into the game, when GW1’s model was highly successful.

So a new tier of gear has to be created? If there’s such a large disconnect between time and cash-required to get legendary items, why not just make legendary items more accessible? Furthermore, why should I even bother with grinding ascended gear, when I can go for legendary and skip the tier in-between? If I know that my ascended gear I spent hours on grinding is irrelevant and does not contribute to acquiring legendary gear, what was the point on spending so much time on getting ascended gear?

It affects where the player base is. With Plinx nerfed, how many people do you see on Cursed Shore? Not much, because people are farming elsewhere (fractals) for cash. Now, in fractals, loot rewards increase as you go higher in levels. Additionally, content becomes gated in the form of infusion, where you MUST have ascended gear with infusion. Notice any problems with this?

I'm curious as to where you got your 2% increase from, mind explaining your math?

I think if Anet would focus on patching WvW, sPvP, and dungeons, instead of focusing on releasing more gear tiers, people would be much happier with the company.

You're very wrong about GW1's weapon system: http://wiki.guildwar...iki/Item_rarity. The insignia, which were the important item attributes, aside from the requirement, were what defined the weapons. That's why the terminology distinguished between a 40/20/20, 40/40, 15^50, etc... So, if you couldn't acquire max stat insignia on lower-tier items, then they cannot be max stats. The stats within a tier, however, were identical, which happens to be the same system GW2 uses.

Of course a new tier of gear is going to be created. Why go halfway and only create legendary weapons? Following your logic, why bother getting exotic gear if it doesn't contribute to the acquirement of ascended/legendary gear? Why not just traipse about in blues until you acquire legendaries?

When Plinx was nerfed, everyone moved to Penitent Path if they were looking for a karma farm. Plinx was never primarily a monetary farm. It was a way to grind out Karma, used for Orrian armor and legendary crafting materials, that just so happened to also give decent amounts of money. Fractals are good money, yes, but I'm willing to bet that dungeons are far better money. Especially considering certain dungeon-related crafting recipes allow you to make items which sell for 20g+ on the broker. Also, while it is true that you need a agony resistance at higher fractal tiers, it's nowhere near mandatory. All of the agony mechanics can be dodged, essentially nullifying the effect of the skill itself. That said, by the time you get to the point where you need agony resistance, chances are you have already acquired, at a minimum, an infused backpiece. There's your resistance.

Honestly, I pulled 2% out of the air because it was closest to what I remember the stat point increase of ascended gear over exotics being. I'm going to dig around and see if I can find the math somewhere. Something to keep in mind, however (specifically the Quality sub-heading): http://wiki.guildwar..._rarity#Quality.

I'm not denying that I wish there was more focus on bug fixes than new content, however I also think that GW2 was released prematurely and they are still in the process of molding the game into what it was originally intended to be.

Edit: Here's a very back-of-the-envelope calculation: https://forum-en.gui...-ascended/first

I just want to reinforce my point that the endgame is what you make it. GW2 offers such a large array of things to do, that I think limiting yourself to one or two is the main problem people run into. That said, I guess you can't help what you enjoy most in a game.

Edited by Magi, 07 December 2012 - 07:49 PM.


#27 BrettM

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:56 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 07 December 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

Yes I know what he meant, but then again, that's what you pay for when you buy a game. It's not like, lel I hope I get something fun... NO. It is: gimme fun because I paid for it.
A fair point. However, suppose I go spend $30k on a car. Then suppose I break out the windows because I don't like the color of the tint, dismount the doors because I don't like the design of the latch, rip out the seats because the upholstery wasn't as plush as I wished, throw away the tires because the wheels aren't shiny enough, and smash the radio because I don't like the song that's playing. Am I entitled to complain that I didn't get $30k-worth of automobile and that the manufacturer owes me because I paid for it? I just don't think we can judge the game by the perspective of anyone who ignored 99% of the content and feels cheated because they didn't get $60-worth of their tightly-focused definition of fun.

View PostArquenya, on 07 December 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

Well by the same philosophy people IRL can't possibly be bored because they haven't counted all the stones of all the buildings. Completing checklists just isn't something that keeps everyone excited. I've always said that achievements are poor substitutes for "real" content (and I still agree with myself ^_^).

I'm not saying I'm bored in the game btw, but a little more content that would callenge your creativity and player skill wouldn't be so bad imo.
I wouldn't argue with that. Sign me up for some.

I agree that checklist play is more appealing to those of us who are borderline OCD, and I did cite a few checklists in my list of content. But even discarding all the checklists, I still find a great deal to do. Story and lore is everywhere, for example. Not just personal story and dungeon story, but all over Tyria, both inside and outside DEs. Stories that range from the small (a couple of skritt in a side passage in a big warren) to the size of multiple zones (centaur war in Kryta). I find it hard to grasp that anyone would pick up an RPG set in a lore-rich fantasy world if they have no interest in story at all.

I feel rewarded if I run across something that makes me laugh. I feel rewarded if a bad guy drops a comment that makes me stop and think. I feel rewarded if I see something that makes me go "look at that!" even if it isn't on some checklist of points of interest. I would be more than happy to see more such rewards added to the game. But that doesn't make me resent the presence of other content that offers different kinds of rewards preferred by other types of players.

Edited by BrettM, 07 December 2012 - 08:58 PM.


#28 Yui San

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:59 PM

View PostArquenya, on 07 December 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

Also: sandboxes are a myth as you can only do what the limited tools the devs allow you to do.

You should have seen Ultima Online: Second Age back in the late 90s. It can be done if it's done right, but the problem is that it mostly attracts hardcore gamers and the casual gamers won't feel like spending a big amount of time just to get started.

#29 StormDragonZ

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:37 PM

Endgame is the end of the game, where you have NOTHING LEFT TO DO.

Therefore, it's not a myth, just no one has an absolute clue what they're talking about.

Ask yourself: What's the last thing you'd want to do in a game? That's "endgame" to those who don't understand.

#30 Juanele

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:02 PM

^

Well indeed. The term comes from Chess in which there are three stages to a game (early, middle, and end game). But it doesn't really apply in that sense to an mmo. What it really ends up being is defined from a levels point of view. But what about those mmos that don't have levels, such as in EVE Online? That's why I say endgame is a misnomer when referencing mmos.




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