76 replies to this topic

[Bloodtau]

List what you feel needs fixing and/or tweaking to bring WVW up to maximum enjoyment.
herre is my list:

Siege equipment hitting things that it has no line of sight to.
Siege equipment shooting through walls and doors.
Player culling (this means players appearing invisible and suddenly appearing out on nowhere)
Server transfers still being free (wtf arenanet?)
Mesmer portals still working through walls and down cliffs (arenanet said they would fix this, still hasn't)
rendering issues, mainly when there is a ton of effects going off and even worse when a thief stealth's
Odd lag that stops certain skills from being cast but everything else works fine.
Servers with "night capping" guilds and guilds/players that join from other time zones just to do this.
Will add more if I can think of them.

Edited by Bloodtau, 09 December 2012 - 02:53 AM.

[MrZero]

People bitching about problems like the game is 3 years old.

[Gilles VI]

My personal issues with it, those issues actually make the 50 kills for monthly a very frustrating time for me.

• Culling Issue
  
• Nightcapping (I know there is no real solution for it)
  
• Boring scenery
  
• Zerg, zerg, zerg

[Aetou]

(1) Repetitiveness - the same maps and roughly the same fights for weeks on end...
(2) Coverage determining more results than skill/coordination (it isn't fun to be the server with twice as many people, or to be the server with half as many.)  While you can achieve a lot with smaller numbers the result overall will normally end up being determined by who has the numerical advantage the most.

[Beastgate]

Low, unbalanced populations.

[Pyraeus]

-Constant-rough match ups
-Free transfers
-Soulbind siege
-Invincible SM 2nd floor siege
-Same old borderlands maps
-No daily or monthly for WvW
EDIT: and of course the hacks and bugs.

Edited by Pyraeus, 08 December 2012 - 07:06 PM.

[Falfyrel]

- Only two static maps (the other two Borderlands don't count) with same-y terrain and not a lot of tactical variety.
- The server transfers are a bit out of hand.
- Culling. (Corollary: the Thief permastealth bug with certain builds, especially with CnD)
- No buffs to anyone on the outgunned side.
- No option to report people hacking, as well as a small but irritating subsection of hackers
- Mesmer portal bombing, which is only really bad due to stated culling issues
- Most importantly, taking a sentry is always the same, supply camps are always the same, towers are always the same... Every location is homogenized and none of them have huge tactical diversity because there's always cliffs going up or down on some side and a road right to the front door. Very bland, and the lack of unique features for specific locations or at least some randomization hurts the replay value of WvW.
- Also the repair bills, which dissuade a lot of newer players from even trying in the first place - it's not like the profit margins are excessively high in WvW anyways.

Edited by Falfyrel, 08 December 2012 - 07:07 PM.

[Real]

The scoreboard.

They should just show map possession and hand out PvE buffs as people take and keep camps/towers/keeps/SM instead of basing it on a numerical value (much like WAR did). As it stands "winning" depends on people you've never met playing the game while you are asleep.

[Tumultus]

First, the small size of the WvWvW maps.  In essence, the small size encourages and promotes zergs and provides attackers with a huge advantage.

Second, the inability of defenders to actually use spells as effectively against attackers.

[Freelancer]

Threads like this.

[PariahX]

I am getting sort of sick of the WvW bitching myself and as constructive as people try to be in these kinds of threads, it just ends up coming off that way.  The problem this game seems to have is no one wants to play when they are losing and with 3 sides to every fight, 66% of the players are losing at any given time.  Maybe we need to change our attitudes a bit.  Sure, the game could be designed a little better to help us have those attitude adjustments we so desperately need but you've got to start by admitting that at least half of the failure here is your own responsibility.  Some of us just had very unrealistic expectations.  Some of us were searching for the holly grail of gaming to bring back the excitement of our first MMO experience and some of us might have been spoilt by recent gamer short attention span give me everything now culture trends.  

Some common things we whine about but could actually take into our hands to change ourselves without waiting for devs to do anything include the ideas of too much zerg and not enough small scale.  How do we get more small scale in a game that does not reward it in such a way that it just happens naturally?  (and when exactly has any game so far done that anyways?!)  We be the change we want to see.    Play in small groups and go looking in those less traveled areas.  There is tons of it around and it is even more fun and rewarding when you have to work for it and escape a few zerg downs to get to it.  This game has plenty of room for lots of different play styles but that just means you have to be looking a little bit longer to find those who match up with your interests.  It drives me nuts when I see people bemoaning the fact that there is no small scale in this game when I see and run it every day so I know there is plenty of it around.  Don't get me wrong, there are zergs too but you learn to avoid them.

Some people complain the maps are too big and and it takes too long to get around while at the same time others are complaining they are not big enough.  When you've managed to get people on both sides of an issue it usually means you've found a balance somewhere in the middle.  There are ways to get past both problems if you find them blocking your enjoyment of the game.   You do not have to run to other end of the map to the commander pin to find action and by choosing to do that, you are yourself providing action for another element of the game.

The thing that keeps sandbox player vs player games thrilling for the long term is a lack of predictability.  You never know what you are going to find out there and when the routine gets stale for you because you are choosing to do the same thing every nite in the same order with the same mix of class / stats / skills, then it is time for you to mix it up and do something completely different.  Not only will it be a new experience for you, think of all the excitement you'll be providing your opponents when you do the total opposite of what was expected?  And if that fails to excite you then thank goodness this is subfree game, take a break and try again after you've had some time away doing other things or jump into sPvP for a change of pace.  We have to take responsibility for our own enjoyment of our hobbies sometimes.  A game by itself alone cannot be expected to entertain anyone, it is a two way street.

In all of the above, this is where good guilds and communities can make a huge difference.  Get with your friends and say on this day we aren't playing for a score and then see what is possible out there.  Do something crazy like make theme groups or have guild contests.  We don't always have to push the min/max game to limit and do everything only in the most efficient way over and over again.  That just turns something fun like WvW in mindless farming.  It is a game to play with friends for the pure joy of it.    Find your bliss but don't be afraid to try new things.

Now as for things like bugs and game engine limitations, well ANET pretty much knows about most of those things and I am sure is working hard on some solutions.  But we know about most of these issues as well and can do our best to adapt.  We can all laugh now when someone is calling out in the incoming and the tally number that started off at 5 ends up being zerg-thirty.  Rendering can really piss me off sometimes but it makes a great excuse when we get rolled and can be used as a way to keep people from getting frustrated over losses.  A positive attitude, as in life, can make a huge difference.

And sometimes you just need to vent and rage over some perceived lack of control in a pc game.  That is ok too when you admit to yourself your true motivation but your mistake is when you try to project your feelings onto others.

Truly, we are the only ones wrecking our own fun in our own minds.   I am not even going to discuss rewards, more better rewards is always a nice bonus but playing games just for carrots is always going to lead to disappointment in the end.  It is a game, relax already and have fun.  /cheers

[DreadlockrastaGW]

Freelancer, on 08 December 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

Threads like this.

Zomg it's the lion's arch commander Freelancer! Protecting all the citizens from any zergs attacking the trading post.

[Var]

DreadlockrastaGW, on 08 December 2012 - 10:44 PM, said:

Zomg it's the lion's arch commander Freelancer! Protecting all the citizens from any zergs attacking the trading post.

I think it would have been better stated as: theads like this started by our resident troll with nothing better to do with his type than to make inflammatory topics every couple of days such that he can revel in the limelight of how much people love him. We already have a thread on this, several even, but it (and in the past) has never stopped him from just making a new thread with his name at the top for all to see.

[Impmon]

1.  Keeps are too easy to take

2.  You get nothing for being a top ranked server or having helped bring your server to the top.  People in lower tiers have the same bonuses as those in the top tiers... why bother having tiers ?

3.  Badges of honor drop to the ground when they should accumulate like karma does automatically.

4.  2 week matches are too long.  Matches should run with a much more limited time frame where everyone is awarded based on their total control of the map upon completion with karma, badges & exp.  Reducing the time frame would reduce the need to have 24/7 coverage.  If your opponents don't queue the match won't start.  

5.  Rendering issues

6.  Thief perma stealth they need to add "remove stealth" effect to some abilities.

[Bloodtau]

Var, on 08 December 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

I think it would have been better stated as: theads like this started by our resident troll with nothing better to do with his type than to make inflammatory topics every couple of days such that he can revel in the limelight of how much people love him. We already have a thread on this, several even, but it (and in the past) has never stopped him from just making a new thread with his name at the top for all to see.

touched a nerve have I? if so, simply press the X in the top right of your screen. sorted, don't have to read the thread then.

WVW needs fixing, players agree with this. it's players such as you who think everything is shiny and perfect that stops a game improving, forever forcing it into the bargain bins of some back street game shop.

It's not the people "moaning" or "trolling" that are wrecking the game, it's the people who think it is perfect who are.

[Tarkus]

Freelancer, on 08 December 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

Threads like this.

I don't agree with freelancer much but seriously, threads like this are what is dragging down the WvW community. No-one thinks the game is perfect, because anyone who tells you that it is, is either delusional or just stupid. However, after playing games like Planetside 2, some of my guildees and friends from other servers have gone back to playing GW2 after a while. Yes the game was launched with some serious oversights such as the ability to wall-jump, yes the engine wasn't completely optimized for large scale combat leading to culling, and yes class balance will upset a few people who aren't interested in getting better. I would understand threads like this popping up if it had been launched a year ago, but damn the game is still better than a lot of the MMO's out there.

You also have to understand that games evolve over time, for example while vanilla WoW was hard (unlike it is now) it was incredibly buggy and I actually stopped  playing altogether because it felt like a shite game. The thing is that the game was upgraded over the years and over time became what it was and I went back and enjoyed myself for a time. While I am not trying to set a false equivalency, because they are produced by different companies and are very different games, I think it is a little premature to be saying that the game is on its death-bed as many of these QQ threads imply.

If you don't like WvW as it is now, fine just come back later when it improves in your opinion. We'll see you on the borderlands.

/end-rant

Edited by Tarkus, 09 December 2012 - 05:50 AM.

[Kovu11]

I'm looking forward to them introducing some new maps at some point. Maybe. Hopefully.

~ Kovu

[Troop]

Wrecking is a strong word.... what I believe are some reasons why people are losing interest in wvw:

1. No feeling of accomplishment, other than server pride.
2. No progression system that encourages World vs World.
3. Culling issue.
4. Downed skills need reworking. It's a system for casual players.

Edited by Troop, 09 December 2012 - 12:53 AM.

[Alaroxr]

I would post my criticisms, but that means I give validity to certain other complaints on this thread which I think are irrational.

Edited by Alaroxr, 09 December 2012 - 12:51 AM.

[Dark]

Anet

12 characters FTW

[Therion]

- Perma-vis thieves (and screwed up class balance in general)
- Culling
- No score-board or reward system
- Boring, repetitive map layout
- Too much focus on boring supply running/scouting and not enough focus on actual fighting
- the fights that do happen are all massive zerg v. zerg fights, there's no capacity for small fights between groups of 5 - 15 players
- No dynamic population cap

- Oh and of course the absurd issue with the badges

Edited by Therion, 09 December 2012 - 04:21 AM.

[matsif]

the only thing that really bugs me is how mass zerging is the only reasonable tactic to do anything in a good amount of time.  its impossible for a small guild group to do much other than take supply and npc camps, only to watch it get taken back by a zerg 5 minutes later.  there is a lack of strategy overall in the entire game mode.

also, the commander title is meaningless, but this generally stems from it having no real connection to WvW and the above issue of there being little strategy that an actual commander can execute.

I feel like the only thing truly keeping WvW going in lower tiers is the requirement of it for the monthly, as most WvW-centered guilds are in the higher tiers due to competition being better and whatnot.

[SevereEpicz]

Impmon, on 08 December 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

.

4.  2 week matches are too long.  Matches should run with a much more limited time frame where everyone is awarded based on their total control of the map upon completion with karma, badges & exp.  Reducing the time frame would reduce the need to have 24/7 coverage.  If your opponents don't queue the match won't start.  

This is actually a really good idea, say the match ups lasted 2 days, losing servers would get more chances to win and a whole lot more people would play if you got a mass karma/badge payout at the end if your team owned a lot of land.

[Tellia]

i dont want to list what other people have already said, so ill just talk about 1 thing that i think needs tuning.

player scaling. i am leveling alts as are most other people in my guild, and most of us are doing this in wvw. however, we pretty much always have to be around actual lvl 80 players, cause we all do shit damage. i understand they dont want some lvl 14 toon to be the same as a lvl 80 in exotics/ascended, but right now there is just a HUGE gap. i think more people would be interested in lvling in wvw, and thus populating wvw more, if they werent so utterly useless in combat. its ridiculous when you fight someone of the same class as you, and you are doing 500 damag with a skill they are doing 2500+ with. and youre not even "low" level, but 50-something.

i think with better scaling, they could get more people playing wvw again, even if only for a little while. and new players would be less frustrated with trying to learn wvw since they very quickly learn how disadvantaged they are.

another thing i think would help is some karma armor available every 10 lvls or so from a vendor in the wvw maps. right now if you want to lvl up in wvw you are forced to run around pve zones if you want to buy gear with your karma. i mean, you could always buy crap off the tp with gold, but it kinda defeats the purpose of even getting karma rewards in wvw. in pve you can buy armor and weapons as you lvl from karma vendors (heart npcs) so i think it only makes sense that you could do the same thing if you lvl in wvw, without being forced to go and pve all the time.

[two maces]

Only badges should drop from WvW, not karma and gold. Or implement some Karma to Badge exchange rate.

[Eon Lilu]

Free Server Transfers, server hop to win.

[Gremlin]

Its not server transfers that are the problem or zergs its simply the concept imo.
You need to balance numbers whether its 10 vs 10 or 500 vs 500.
plus or minus a few percent is fine but totally unbalanced matchups are a little pointless.

If you restrict movement between servers then a few servers will fight it out and the rest will forget about wvw altogether.
If you have movement then some players will always be chasing the current winning server and trying to join it.
So again sucessful servers will reach population saturation and the rest will die off.

Taking keeps and so on by mobbing the door is silly, fortifications means siege engines and only siege engines.
Also an area effect is just that an area effect not the first 5 and ignore the rest.
Do that and the zergs will have to spread out or die.
It was a great idea but it needs to work and work soon because it was a big selling point for GW2 and its the main thing people criticise in the game.

Edited by Gremlin, 09 December 2012 - 10:01 AM.

[the butcher]

When we hear about guesting being ready, then you'll know the transfer-system will be changed.

I'd say february and the game will be improved a lot.

[Shizu]

Technical issues aside, WvW simply isn't what we've been promised.

Warning:  DAoC (pre ToA) references beyond this point.
Like it or not, but this game clearly tried to attract the DAoC crowd, still waiting for that epic RvR game after ten years.

I could go on for hours here, but I'll try to keep it short.
To put it simply, it's not world versus word. It's a glorified arena.
In no way can this game create the epic feelings of a constant struggle between three factions in a presistent environment, for the following reasons:

- Maps are way too small. A zerg can literally be anywhere on the map in two minutes. This removes any meaningful strategic decision from the equation. We don't need to keep guild X watching over zone X and guild Y watching over zone Y, because crossed swords, contested icons and minuscule maps remove the need to make difficult decisions.
Difficult decisions are needed to create an interesting scenario in fictional warfare or it quickly becomes too predictable and boring.
Remember the need to keep an eye on all three frontiers (OLD frontiers) on DAoC, or risk missing some crucial action?
Not needed here. Small maps, crossed swords and you can be anywhere in two minutes.

- Objectives too easy to capture. It feels like capturing flags, not taking towers.or keeps. An undefended, fortified tower can be captured in two minutes flat. Make it five for a keep. Sure, important objectives shouldn't be left undefended. But a fully upgraded tower should not be capturable in two minutes, period.
Also, a keep should not be capturable by five people.
Where are some hard objectives like DAoC's relic keeps? Or even upgraded standard keeps?
We need some objectives to be impossible, even if undefended, for small parties.

- Too many objectives. Having shit to capture is cool, but literally everything in WvW revolves around capturing stuff. It gets old fast.
Combine it with the previous point and the result is the current borefest. Capturing a tower is supposed to be a big accomplishment for a faction. Here we just have to recapture it 15 minutes later because we lost it to a bigger zerg in two minutes.

- Objectives too close together. Again, capturing stuff is cool. But so are field battles. For one open-field engagement, we get twenty siege battles. In that rare field battle, there's some tower/keep so close, it's impossible to wipe a force completely. Even if you wipe a zerg, it's back 30 seconds later. Removing a big force from an area has little to no impact on the battle.
We need big, open areas and more frequent fortified objectives the deeper you push into enemy zones.

- Defenders way too disadvantaged. A small group of smart and capable defenders should be able to hold off a much bigger force for a while. I remember pushing back zergs of 50-60 players with two parties trenched in a keep, with smart use of GTAoE and PBAoE spells. Impossible here with the pathetic cap on AoE attacks,

- No major goals. Never seen a scoreboard mean so little in a competitive game. It could be removed completely with absolutely no impact on the game. One thing is fighting for a +10% melee bonus for an entire server in both pvp and pve. Another thing is fighting for 10 extra points at the next score tick. Guess wich one promotes more coordination, realm pride and will to fight.

- Nothing is persistent. We finally have a three-faction game, wich is the main factor to prevent total domination for a faction. So what's the point of the weekly resets? Balance the servers in the first month or so, then close the transfers.
I played for years as a 25%-pop hibernian, against 40% albion and 35% midgard. Granted, we had some rough times, but it was part of the fun. No need for garbage like timers and resets.

- Arena maps. Why? Really, why? Three copy/pasted, perfectly symmetrical map. Are modern players so *ing dumb? I don't think so. Fighting in DAoC's different environments was beautiful. We had to learn to navigate different maps, different keep layouts, different routes for the relics. Here it's just copy/paste.


This is getting too long, so here is the TLDR:
I still remember the first keep I captured in DAoC, ten years ago (caer Benowyc). I remember the names of the guilds and the leaders.
I still remember the details of a couple relic raids, with three realms fighting from prime-time all night long.
And I still remember the names of enemy players and guilds.

WvW here is so bland and uninspired, I'm sure I won't remember anything in a year, let alone ten.
I'll just remember running in circles on clone maps, capturing one meaningless objective after another.
There are no epic feelings here. No helm's deep moments.
If I want to play balanced pvp in a confined environment, I load a fps, not a mmorpg.

Edited by Shizu, 09 December 2012 - 10:23 PM.

[J E R I C O]

Freelancer, on 08 December 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

Threads like this.

MrZero, on 08 December 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

People bitching about problems like the game is 3 years old.

+1