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Frustrated: Tell me how to beat Perma-Stealth Thieves


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#1 Alaroxr

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 10:56 PM

As the title says, this is getting frustrating.

I can compete with essentially all builds except for these Thief ones, where the Thief is stealthed nearly 100% of the time as your health slowly drops in chunks from burst (which they promptly stealth after), or via bleed stacking.

As it is now, even with 2-3 people full lv 80 in WvW, the only valid tactic seems to be to run away, at least against a Thief who knows what he is doing.

Some help would be appreciated.

Spoiler

Some additional info: I'm a Guardian in a Pow/Pre/Tuf build with a Greatsword and Scepter/Shield (generally).

Edited by Alaroxr, 08 December 2012 - 10:57 PM.


#2 Symbiont

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 12:02 AM

[TSym] yes i've seen you guys before, you are in this video.
and yes, TSym are dying against a single thief with a build as you described.



perhaps watching this you can learn and pick up a few tricks to fight against it.

Edited by Symbiont, 09 December 2012 - 12:02 AM.


#3 Alaroxr

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 12:25 AM

I've seen that video, but there doesn't seem to be anything I can do other than what I've been trying (which I've based off of watching that video and my experience fighting thieves like him before).

View PostSymbiont, on 09 December 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

and yes, TSym are dying against a single thief with a build as you described.

I didn't say a guild is being defeated by a single Thief, I'm referencing how difficult it is to defeat a Thief with this kind of build in a 1v1 to 3v1 scenario. My guild doesn't struggle fighting 1 Thief (unless you consider those 2 people in the video and my personal experiences as representative of a guild).

Edited by Alaroxr, 09 December 2012 - 12:37 AM.


#4 Rendar

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 04:45 AM

Thief stealth, is just that, stealth.  Not immunity.

Just get 1 person to AoE bomb the area, thief is dead.  Also, conditions stick unless traited, and even then only removes one, so load up conditions on them, they stealth, and still tick away damage.

#5 Eliyahu

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 05:53 AM

View PostRendar, on 09 December 2012 - 04:45 AM, said:

Thief stealth, is just that, stealth.  Not immunity.

Just get 1 person to AoE bomb the area, thief is dead.  Also, conditions stick unless traited, and even then only removes one, so load up conditions on them, they stealth, and still tick away damage.

Just AoE bomb the area?  What kind of AoE can 100 to 0 a 19k health target while also being able to reliably hit an invisible target?

And the problem with condition stacking is that the Thief isn't visible long enough to stack enough conditions.

We know that these are the counters in theory, but for the life of me I cannot see how these work in practice.

#6 Rendar

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:07 AM

View PostEliyahu, on 09 December 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

Just AoE bomb the area?  What kind of AoE can 100 to 0 a 19k health target while also being able to reliably hit an invisible target?

And the problem with condition stacking is that the Thief isn't visible long enough to stack enough conditions.

We know that these are the counters in theory, but for the life of me I cannot see how these work in practice.

Sounds to me like extreme exaggeration on your part.  Sorry.

If the Thief in questions is not "visible long enough to stack conditions", then the thief is also not out of stealth long enough to do jack squat to you.

If the thief is in stealth, he cant hurt you.  Unless hes a pistol/dagger condition stacker, and even in that case, he needs to pop out put conditions on you, get back in melee range, and connect with a CnD to go back into stealth (barring utility skills which are only up every 45 seconds to 1 minutes).

Theres no way possible in reality for any thief to be in "perma" stealth and actually be doing massive damage.  You said no L2P comments, but saddly that is exactly what is needed here.


I mostly play Elementalist, and have no problem with thieves.  When they stealth just drop your AoE's at your feet, or if your D/D pop your frost or shock aura.  Thief comes back nearly dead and then screws himself after he attacks you.

Only thief that is a problem is the 3-second kill backstab builds, and even then its only if "I" do something wrong like fail to hit a stun breaker or teleport.

Edited by Rendar, 09 December 2012 - 06:10 AM.


#7 Wraithpk

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 07:00 AM

View PostRendar, on 09 December 2012 - 04:45 AM, said:

Thief stealth, is just that, stealth.  Not immunity.

Just get 1 person to AoE bomb the area, thief is dead.  Also, conditions stick unless traited, and even then only removes one, so load up conditions on them, they stealth, and still tick away damage.

Any Thief in a permastealth build will have that trait, and it removes a condition every 3 seconds, so direct damage is a better option.

@OP, What's your character name in game? I'm in Onslaught, I can give you some pointers from a Thief's perspective.

Edited by Wraithpk, 09 December 2012 - 07:00 AM.


#8 Tellia

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 07:07 AM

i think culling is the biggest problem with this. dunno how many times i have been killed by a thief in wvw, when that thief didnt even appear. i get hit by bursts of damage and die, and have no idea why...i check the log and its all backstabs, mug, cnd. thing is no thief appeared between any of the stealths because of the stupid rendering problem.

#9 Eliyahu

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 07:26 AM

View PostRendar, on 09 December 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

Sounds to me like extreme exaggeration on your part.  Sorry.

If the Thief in questions is not "visible long enough to stack conditions", then the thief is also not out of stealth long enough to do jack squat to you.

If the thief is in stealth, he cant hurt you.  Unless hes a pistol/dagger condition stacker, and even in that case, he needs to pop out put conditions on you, get back in melee range, and connect with a CnD to go back into stealth (barring utility skills which are only up every 45 seconds to 1 minutes).

Theres no way possible in reality for any thief to be in "perma" stealth and actually be doing massive damage.  You said no L2P comments, but saddly that is exactly what is needed here.


I mostly play Elementalist, and have no problem with thieves.  When they stealth just drop your AoE's at your feet, or if your D/D pop your frost or shock aura.  Thief comes back nearly dead and then screws himself after he attacks you.

Only thief that is a problem is the 3-second kill backstab builds, and even then its only if "I" do something wrong like fail to hit a stun breaker or teleport.

The condition stacker is exactly what I'm talking about -- the kind of thief who's only out of stealth for a few seconds at a time.  Burst thieves are bad and I have absolutely no problem with them.

D/D elementalist is probably the most ideal class to be doing this with you auras, high mobility, multiple knockdowns, and abundant AoE.  Necros are probably second best in this matchup.  But how do other classes deal with this?  Most classes and builds don't have AoE out the ass.  

I have no problem with 99% of thieves, but a good thief that knows how to abuse stealth is just a pain.  The basic problem is that he gets a free attack for every time he comes out of stealth because he doesn't appear for the first second so he basically gets 3 attacks to your 2.  It's so goddamn frustrating to know exactly where the thief is but have absolutely no way of hitting him because your skills need a target.  His damage is mediocre, of course, but it's enough kill most classes eventually.  If you your attacks rely on having a target you can't do shit to that thief once your few AoEs are on cooldown.  In this situation, you're only left with two options: either get whittled down over time or run away.

Is there any way to to counter a stealth oriented thief with a build that isn't completely oriented around AoE damage? L2P does not help.  This just isn't as simple as "Dodge 100b, noob" -- the counter is far more complex.  I am actively asking for advice here, not just calling for a nerf like most QQers.

#10 Minu

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 07:32 AM

Thieves cannot stealth to the excesses you claim.  When they are stealthing at their max, they are taking various other drawbacks as a result.  If you are consistantly being killed by a thief, perhaps the issue lies with the way you are playing the game.   ie, if you wander around alone, behind the lines etc, you are a prime target for a thief, and deserve everything you get.

Roll a thief and check them out, it can be hilarious.

When I play my thief, I hunt people like you, when I play my ranger, guardian, elementalist, engineer, I try not to put myself in the position of being thief bait.

Remember WvW is not about me being able to kill you, it is about teamplay.

Edited by Minu, 09 December 2012 - 07:34 AM.


#11 Rendar

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 08:41 AM

View PostMinu, on 09 December 2012 - 07:32 AM, said:

Thieves cannot stealth to the excesses you claim.

Exactly.  Im not sure where these people think Pistol thieves can exit stealth with their number 1 skill, and INSTANTLY!!!! enter stealth again.  A Pistol thief can only get back into stealth by using his heal, CnD, or something like blinding powder.  Even if he blew every utility slot, his heal, etc.  There is no way he could perma stealth the whole match vs multiple opponents while actually doing damage.

However, there is a way for thieves to insta stealth.  If they use CnD, and DONT attack during stealth, when they pop out of stealth there is no "revealed" debuff.  So they can use CnD right away again.  However please note, this does not work if they use any attack.  

So really the only way I can see a thief doing what you claim, is to CnD, use sneak attack, use a utility slot to stealth again, and then never attack the rest of the fight except CnD when revealed, and you dying from 5 stacks of bleed you didnt bother to cleanse off yourself....

Edited by Rendar, 09 December 2012 - 08:42 AM.


#12 Featherman

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 09:30 AM

TC, are you talking about caltrop spammers? The ones that drop an aoe that pulses cripples and bleeds? If so those are the kinds of thieves can CAN and will spam stealth in excess. I don't play the class myself too often but I believe the combo is something along the lines of stealth>wait till stealth ends>BS>Death Blossom>Death Blossom>Mug+CnD/CnD>Dodge for caltrop spams until stealth ends>repeat. I've fought many of these guys on my elementalist in WvW and I'm often able to wipe the floor with them.

The trick to beating them is understanding their rotation. The main damage output comes from the bleeds from Caltrops and Death Blossom. The Caltrops they drop while dodging will account for most of their damage, but since it's an aoe pulse you can avoid the damage by simple moving off of them. Move around, especially after they've used CnD so as to avoid standing in several stacks of caltrops. If you've got copious amounts of cleansing, you can even bait them to spam their caltrops in one spot, dodge out, and cleanse and heal. Hitting them when they're unstealthed can be difficult due to culling, but If anything you'll should be able to at least avoid the bulk of their damage.

I can certainly understand how certain classes will have trouble with these types of thieves. I've only able to deal with them effectively since my ele has PBAoEs, condition and copious amounts cone attacks. Since you play a guardian, maybe you can use a staff to whittle down their health as you dodge?

Edited by Featherman, 09 December 2012 - 09:33 AM.


#13 turbo234

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 09:39 AM

The way I've dealt with them: move around when they stealth. A lot of the stealthing is to get better positioning on you, so be unpredictable in your movements and make their stealths worthless. When they come out of stealth, throw a few conditions on them, knock them down right away/daze them. Basically use the chance you have to prolong the time out of stealth. Also if you can, throw an immobilize/cripple on them before they stealth. You will get a better idea of where they are.

#14 Sam_Uk

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 09:44 AM

Learn to count.

#15 Fittleluck

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 12:50 PM

View Postturbo234, on 09 December 2012 - 09:39 AM, said:

The way I've dealt with them: move around when they stealth. A lot of the stealthing is to get better positioning on you, so be unpredictable in your movements and make their stealths worthless. When they come out of stealth, throw a few conditions on them, knock them down right away/daze them. Basically use the chance you have to prolong the time out of stealth. Also if you can, throw an immobilize/cripple on them before they stealth. You will get a better idea of where they are.

This is the truth. My backstab yoloster thief is useless when I can't get a solid CnD hit on my target. Standing in a chill/cripple field will help immensely as well.

#16 MrForz

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 05:21 PM

For the moment, it's rarely possible when culling issues are involved. And what's when speaking of KILLING one, not getting the edge on him, the latter case is simple for most of them.

#17 Psikerlord

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:31 AM

View PostRendar, on 09 December 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

I mostly play Elementalist, and have no problem with thieves.  When they stealth just drop your AoE's at your feet, or if your D/D pop your frost or shock aura.  Thief comes back nearly dead and then screws himself after he attacks you.

Only thief that is a problem is the 3-second kill backstab builds, and even then its only if "I" do something wrong like fail to hit a stun breaker or teleport.
If this is true then ele needs a nerf... and/or thief needs a buff (not to BS burst builds!). Just sayin'
PS: it is true

Edited by Psikerlord, 10 December 2012 - 01:35 AM.


#18 Trei

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 02:44 AM

Posted Image

#19 Rendar

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 06:11 AM

If all else fails, a good method to help you kill thieves is to wipe all those tears from your eyes, helps you keep track of them better

#20 Sinnacle

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:15 AM

Just go to the wiki look at the thieves skills and you will see that there is no way a thief can perma stealth.  A p/d thief wants to open and then get close again to go back in stealth.  If the thief opens with stealth but up a block so they can't CnD.  

Mesmer was my main I rolled a thief and honestly when you actually play the class you learn so much about it.  You also learn it is not easy as people think since you are squishy.  

The problem is people feel as if they HAVE TO have the kill.  If I am trolling 3 people they always stand around swinging at air if I drop Refuge they come over to the refuge with nothing that does good damage.  Hit the refuge hard make the thief leave it less time in refuge the less stealth they build up in it.

A p/d thief's rotation is for the most part 1 and 5.  5 is CnD you stop or delay 5 you won the fight alot of times just stay range.

Edited by Sinnacle, 10 December 2012 - 08:16 AM.


#21 lmaonade

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 10:41 AM

View PostSymbiont, on 09 December 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

[TSym] yes i've seen you guys before, you are in this video.
and yes, TSym are dying against a single thief with a build as you described.



perhaps watching this you can learn and pick up a few tricks to fight against it.

I enjoy this vid very much, I don't play thief much (though I do sometimes), but I always enjoy good P/D play, though he is very rude, and uses quip lol.

that being said, as an Ele main, that doesn't help me deal with heartseeker/backstab thieves, since he seems to avoid those with either stealth or shadowstep, things that Eles don't have a lot of access to, sure I can run away with no probs since Eles are admittedly completely bullshit at that, but beating them is hard when they can crit for 1/3 my hp with a single heartseeker

Edited by lmaonade, 10 December 2012 - 10:43 AM.


#22 Mursie

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 02:09 PM

have you ever noticed where you are when fighting a thief that is a condition build?  notice mobs around you alot?

this type of build has certain spots on the maps they like to hunt.  normally around alot of mobs they can easily cnD into stealth off of.  sometimes just repositioning yourself to spots where multiple cnD availability targets are NOT at..will help you.

Edited by Mursie, 10 December 2012 - 02:10 PM.


#23 lorschy

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:09 PM

Hi,

i was jumped by this kind of thief 2 days ago, and i won after like 2 minutes.

I think you need to understand how these kind of thiefs do dmg, and how to counter it.

He mostly uses cloak and dagger -> sneak attack.

So, if you dont have a condition cleanse you will have a problem.

Also you should deny him the cloak and dagger.
This can be done by moving & dodgin .

Of course he will have some utils and the heal which will let him stealth, but this does not change your tatctic.

Move and try do preemtivly dodge.

It will take some time to kill the thief, but most of the time, they dont know when to back off.

With 2 people you should not lose to him, IF you have the same gearlevel & understanding of the game ...

#24 Shiren

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:52 PM

I've noticed when facing them, my pet (I'm a ranger) will sometimes react to their presence before they load on my screen. Every time they come out of stealth they remain invisible to me for a couple more seconds, which is massive when you consider how long stealth is supposed to last. They can be targeted again, but I can't see them. This kind of build (and anything with stealth or portalling) is boosted by culling issues.

I've been able to fight them off without dieing, it always depended on if I could get one of my quickness boosts on the thief without him stealthing or my cripple/stun arrow being "obstructed" by air. The first fight in that video was ironically a thief ganging up on two others (because stealth dropped aggro, the two people he was ganking had to fight the mobs as well as the thief) which is why when fighting thieves it's always a bad idea to do it near where there are mobs. When these thieves take on two or three people, it's usually because some are downlevelled or someone came to help another one. Rarely will I see thieves hit groups of people alone.

I always stay in a group in WvW, despite what the person in that video seems to think, WvW is not a solo experience. You aren't going to use a thief stealth build to solo cap Stonemist or an enemy tower, stealth doesn't help you carry more supplies to build siege. I always move in groups and keep on task (there is almost always a commander with an objective that you should be helping with). If I do have to fight one of these thieves, or I come across someone being picked on by them, I will dodge all over the place and try to CC the thief as much as possible. If someone goes down, I will res them immedietly AND have my wolf use it's AoE howl fear on the corpse, this sends the thief running off despite trying to stealth stomp. Most of their success comes from people who can't retarget them fast enough after they come out of stealth. Notice in the video, the thief isn't stealth for half the fight and the enemy is still attacking the air? It's because the thief still hasn't appeared on their screens due to bad programming. When you have that many stealths, you are going to be insible almost all the time, even when you should be visible. This causes a lot of people to run because they can't fight what they can't see.

#25 lioka qiao

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 09:00 PM

I dont know... PB aoe bomb?  We can't hurt you if we can't get near you and one good knockdown will break permastealth.   There's no perma stealthing in shortbow either.

#26 mofogie

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 04:00 AM

Guild Wars 2 is part auto-aim, part twitch action based.   The best counter to anything, is having better reactions, reflexes, and anticipating what they're going to do.

this being said, the best way to stop re-stealth, is to not let them hit with Cloak n Dagger.  CnD requires a massive amount of initiative, if they miss, they will probably be unable to use it for 5-6 seconds.

To make them miss, dodgeroll, blind, or juke them, make yourself an erratic moving target.  

and if they get it, make them chase you, wasting their stealth time.  If they're a ranged stealther, then it is trickier, but at least their damage isn't as good as backstabbers.

#27 RecentlyTaken

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 04:05 AM

Perma stealth only works in WvW and they mostly used to troll people.

Pretty much the main reason i only play sPvP now, where perma stealth builds are completely useless there.

#28 Mekkakat

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 01:44 PM

Lotsssssssss of trolls out here lol.

Character specific help (seeing as everyone just wants to bash the OP) -

You have an immobilize, so force them to use one of (if not their only) their breakers. From there, stay out of melee - Cloak and Dagger is the most important skill they have at that point. Start pounding the ground with Smite while kiting in a fashion that moves you laterally from the target, so you can cris-cross your original path over your PBAoEs. Same goes for Symbol of Wrath here; just drop it and keep using it as a base. If they drop Caltrops, MOVE.

At this point, you've established a no-enter zone that should be at least a dodge or two in any direction. Smack their face with your wand and coat them in fire. I'm not sure what your utility is, but you'll need to work your shield like nobody's business when the Thief gets in. Push them back, and keep your kiting going. I'd suggest timing your Symbol of Wrath to be opposite of your shield cooldowns, so retaliation is a fallback.

Guardians have fat heals, so only redbar when you get the MOST from your heal - and only heal when you KNOW you can. Your main goal here isn't to kill them outright (you can't), but to either force them off of you, kill them over time, or wait for reinforcements. You have to understand that he will not run out of energy or cooldowns. Thieves can attack pretty much infinitely - you can't. Time your ish and keep a good pace with your kiting. Spray your Virtues well, and force him to breaker and cleanse (if he has any).

Let the flames and PBAoE do the work.

Hope that helps. Mekkakat awaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy

- I want that purple stuff.


#29 Shiren

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 03:02 PM

I kept killing the thief in this video tonight. He was hillariously lame. Spamming stealth over and over, trying to use the NPCs to help him out. Everytime he stopped to stealth stomp someone I took him down (it was the only time he was in one place long enough to hit) otherwise I had to rely on poison and snares to slow him down and prevent his health regen. If he thinks he's going to lose he will run, his build is entirely based around using positioning to beat you, he chooses when to attack and from where, stealths when he is taking too much heat (or targeted at all) and repositions to beat you down. Most of his damage comes from bursts between stealths, while he is recovering between all the stealths. Crowd control is the best way to interrupt him, you can hurt him quite bad if he is stunned for a second, it's time he can't run away or stealth to avoid damage. He is almost always behind you when he stealths and he will almost always be on a downed person doing a stealth stomp, so CC, AoE and stun that spot. Honestly, he is faster than you, so even if you do outplay him in the fight, he will stealth and run away until he is ready to engage again. You're only going to beat him if you spike him down between stealths (with some kind of snare or stun) or if he decides to stealth stomp and you can take him out that way.

Just so you know, this thief will alt+F4 every time you down him. It's hillarious to watch him rage quit because he got beaten. He targets yaks, but it's not really a strategy, he's just baiting people to play with him. I suspect if you just ignored him he would get bored and log off. One final note I'd like to say is that he has a build designed to perma stealth and gank. Most people in WvW have builds designed to travel ground quickly and siege objectives. Very rarely will a normal WvW build be on the same level as a dueling build seeing as sieging points and fighting groups is entirely different. This thief contributes very little to his allies in a fights, whereas the people he ganks are usually built to fight with their allies and capture objectives. It's like they are playing two different games and that's a big part of his success.

#30 Symbiont

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:45 PM

@shiren hatin' on this thief, you should just post that video for some proof and then maybe, just maybe you might be as awesome as him.


Edited by Symbiont, 11 December 2012 - 06:47 PM.





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