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Frustrated: Tell me how to beat Perma-Stealth Thieves


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#61 realmisr

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:35 PM

View Postdynia666, on 21 December 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

best way ? make a thief with same build looks how its works ? rly why ppls are so dump ...

when you use it yourself you will find your own weakness to this -.- and no its no that easy how its looks, you are just play horrible so you get killed easly

I don't have lot of problems with thiefs I kill them like fly with 2-3 hits

if you still not belive how easy it is

I hope you know that the thief you fought in that video has no idea how to play that type of thief. He was a sitting duck...bad is bad.

Edited by realmisr, 08 January 2013 - 03:35 PM.


#62 dynia666

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:51 PM

View Postrealmisr, on 08 January 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

I hope you know that the thief you fought in that video has no idea how to play that type of thief. He was a sitting duck...bad is bad.

he knew how to fight but I was much better than him simple

#63 B3aT

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 05:01 PM

How to Not die is one thing, how to kill him ...well guardian doesn't have enough burst damage to whack him before entering stealth and run like a squirrel.

To best protection in WvW I found we can use mace with focus or shield, and to scare him a GS or hammer.
To try killing him.. for max dmg will be hammer and GS with other disable like sylvari root.

The AoE, L2P and dodge are a lot of crap advices, the areas in WvW are too big, you must be a grenadier (or necro) with eagle eye and be accurate at prediction where he is in stealth, and dodge is so limited, he has more then 1 instant skills to jump at you. Dodge is a must though to evade his burst skills when he exists stealth.

Another trick I use is the #5 skills from GS use it, then when he enters stealth activate it, will still KD him and gain 2seconds (keep him closer to you).

Anyway as guardian I see more threat from conditions thiefs then burst ones, we have 1 aegis, then we can react with the second(retreat) while dodging. Now we can give ourself protection and/or retaliation, then we can switch to CC and dmg, his burst was wasted now. Ofc rarely this works because most of the times me or him are not alone, culling is not fixed and so on ..
All my fights with eng or guard had the same results : me going down in <2-3seconds or he is running and cannot be catched.

You are frustrated, is natural, is an OP class and will be nerfed ..is just a matter of time.

Edited by B3aT, 08 January 2013 - 05:03 PM.


#64 realmisr

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 05:05 PM

View Postdynia666, on 08 January 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

he knew how to fight but I was much better than him simple

You really thought he knew how to fight? As a condi thief he never even laid down caltrops on you...nor did he take full advantage of his stealth...I'm sorry but you really need to fight someone who knows how to play a condi thief.

#65 whodini

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 05:18 PM

At least someone gave advice other than simply saying start a new character

#66 Drtrider

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 06:00 PM

I run a similar build to yippie-kye (hate me all you want, I like the play style)

However, if they're running a P/D build. When they get close either dodge, or block the attack or blind. Something of that sort. Cloak and Dagger is out main way to access stealth. Block that. And you'll have them caught in the open. If you have a range option, immobilize or stun is going to be your best option. Don't let them move and they're as good as dead.

Finally AOE. This is the one thing that will drive any thief crazy. If they stealth start popping AOE's any good thief is going to try and avoid them. (It frustrates the living hell outta' me when a a necro stands in the middle of all their circles) However, it is smart.

#67 dynia666

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:13 PM

View PostB3aT, on 08 January 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

How to Not die is one thing, how to kill him ...well guardian doesn't have enough burst damage to whack him before entering stealth and run like a squirrel.

To best protection in WvW I found we can use mace with focus or shield, and to scare him a GS or hammer.
To try killing him.. for max dmg will be hammer and GS with other disable like sylvari root.

The AoE, L2P and dodge are a lot of crap advices, the areas in WvW are too big, you must be a grenadier (or necro) with eagle eye and be accurate at prediction where he is in stealth, and dodge is so limited, he has more then 1 instant skills to jump at you. Dodge is a must though to evade his burst skills when he exists stealth.

Another trick I use is the #5 skills from GS use it, then when he enters stealth activate it, will still KD him and gain 2seconds (keep him closer to you).

Anyway as guardian I see more threat from conditions thiefs then burst ones, we have 1 aegis, then we can react with the second(retreat) while dodging. Now we can give ourself protection and/or retaliation, then we can switch to CC and dmg, his burst was wasted now. Ofc rarely this works because most of the times me or him are not alone, culling is not fixed and so on ..
All my fights with eng or guard had the same results : me going down in <2-3seconds or he is running and cannot be catched.

You are frustrated, is natural, is an OP class and will be nerfed ..is just a matter of time.

wvwvw is garbage not wroth to play and I don't care how thiefs is there, show me how thiefs kill good guardians on spvp tournamets, you need at least 2 pure dps to take down that guardian or 3 medium dps ppls

#68 ProfGast

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:23 PM

in WvW I don't enjoy playing against *any* -/D thieves simply because they are so hard to maintain target on especially given the visual bug.  That said I have the theory down on how to take them, just have to work on the practice.

All -/D thieves rely on Cloak and Dagger (CnD) to stealth them repeatedly.  This means sometime during their rotation they have to run into melee with something and hit it to land stealth again.  Since they have to do it so often, most -/D thieves are very good at landing and timing their CnD but it's still the most predictable attack they will use.  It costs 5 initiative which is half or close to half of their total init at any given time, and even the most init intensive trait builds can't use it more than oh, 3 times in a 10 second span before their initiative is out.  More commonly they have 2 swings before they have to wait for init recharge.  This means the easiest way to counter such a thief in a true 1v1 situation is to prevent the CnD by blocking, evading, blinding  or interrupting their attack run.  Good long immobilizes do wonders since an immobile thief can't get into melee range, and most such thieves won't be able to cleanse conditions outside of stealth.

For guardian GS, Binding Blade is an excellent ability given you can land the debuff as they run in, and even if they land the C&D, you can follow with a pull, Mark, Whirling Wrath combo that will hammer most thieves out of their HP.  Guardian hammer is also decent choice as a Ring of Warding timed correctly keeps the thief to a known location.

The really good thieves will ply their trade in a target-rich-environment specifically to avoid people who know how to dodge CnD, since they can unload their burst on you, then turn and CnD a poor hapless chicken or Pug nearby.  The only real way to deal with that is to try to wipe all neutral mobs and critters in the area prior to engaging, or relocate to a spot less advantageous to the thief.  Yes that means running away.  Pugs and allied npcs you can only do so much

Target-Rich-environments significantly raise the difficulty and there are so far only a few solutions I have:  Any character exiting stealth creates a small black cloudburst when stealth wears off.  While stealth culling issues may leave the thief invisible for up to 2 more seconds, at this time they are actually tab-targetable.  Using tab or "Target nearest" command can highlight a thief before he finishes rendering and allow you to lay down some punishment.

On a similar note, Pets, Illusions/phantasms, Spirit Weapons and other summons home and target stealth characters immediately as they exit stealth and are not subject to the visual culling effect.  While they also provide more targets to CnD, sometimes it's worth it, especially high damaged ranged phantasms like Duelist and Warlock who will launch their attack as soon as the thief breaks stealth, or spider pets who can drop ranged immobilizes.

Lastly a suggestion that only applies to P/D thieves.  These thieves are some of the most annoying since they do not use initiative for anything EXCEPT Cloak and dagger.  The attack pattern is going to be stealth, position self, sneak attack, kite, vital shot, vital shot, CnD, repeat.  As long as you have a class that has reflects and good reflexes, you can drop a reflect right as Sneak Attack launches, and tag the thief with his own medicine.  Alternatively you can drop a WoR or (traited) Temporal Curtain, and step to the other side when the thief tries to attack.  It's tricky but doable.

Other thief stealth skills:
Hide in Shadows (Heal): 30s Cooldown Treat as if Thief has used a CnD on another target, will destealth in 3-4 seconds or when they attack again

Blinding Powder: 40s Cooldown, 32 traited.  Same as above.

Shadow Refuge: 60s Cooldown, 48 traited.  This can, by itself, give the thief a full 12+ seconds of stealth.  Usually used by thieves as a panic button getaway, or a reset, there are only two ways I know of how to handle this.  The first:thief must remain in circle to gain stealth.  That means you know WHERE he is.  AoE, PBAoE or melee autoattack the heck out of the area.  Thieves are squishy and if you land enough hits he'll go down, stealth or no.  The second: SR has a "tripwire" effect, if the thief leaves the area he will automatically unstealth and get hit by the "Revealed" debuff.  If you push/pull/launch a thief out of the circle, he'll go visible and be unable to use it.  Most effectively proven by mesmers with Temporal Curtain/Into the Void or GS5 skill, Guardians with  Binding blade, Shield of Absorption or a lucky Banish can also kick thieves out of their protective circle quite easily.

Edited by ProfGast, 08 January 2013 - 10:39 PM.


#69 B3aT

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:51 AM

View Postdynia666, on 08 January 2013 - 08:13 PM, said:

wvwvw is garbage not wroth to play and I don't care how thiefs is there, show me how thiefs kill good guardians on spvp tournamets, you need at least 2 pure dps to take down that guardian or 3 medium dps ppls

Yes the discussion is about WvW, last thief beating a guard in spvpI saw is this learning video https://www.youtube....tailpage#t=738s , but this is another topic ..

#70 RandolfRa

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 04:50 PM

View Postdynia666, on 08 January 2013 - 08:13 PM, said:

wvwvw is garbage not wroth to play and I don't care how thiefs is there, show me how thiefs kill good guardians on spvp tournamets, you need at least 2 pure dps to take down that guardian or 3 medium dps ppls
That is intented. If your party is too defensive, you will lose. Pack more damage and l2p before qq.

#71 dynia666

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 01:08 PM

View PostRandolfRa, on 09 January 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

That is intented. If your party is too defensive, you will lose. Pack more damage and l2p before qq.

l2p rly ? you tell ME to l2p BWHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA ? I can kick your ass in 1v1 any time >_>
your l2p argument is so freaking awsome and made me don't know how to say rly ...

and any of you leave wvwvw is garbage its rly pro follow to zerk and fight 30v5 ^^ you will rly l2p there :D

Edited by dynia666, 10 January 2013 - 01:10 PM.


#72 Eliyahu

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 05:15 PM

View Postdynia666, on 10 January 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

l2p rly ? you tell ME to l2p BWHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA ? I can kick your ass in 1v1 any time >_>
your l2p argument is so freaking awsome and made me don't know how to say rly ...

and any of you leave wvwvw is garbage its rly pro follow to zerk and fight 30v5 ^^ you will rly l2p there :D

Hold on guys, I think it's trying to communicate.

Seriously, all you're missing is #YOLOSWAG.  Grow up and stop derailing the thread because you can't stroke your own 12 year old ego.


View PostProfGast, on 08 January 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

in WvW I don't enjoy playing against *any* -/D thieves simply because they are so hard to maintain target on especially given the visual bug.  That said I have the theory down on how to take them, just have to work on the practice.....

I've pretty much accepted that */D thieves in WvW are exploiters and have simply stopped caring about them.  Maybe someday ANet will fix this, maybe they won't.  It's just one of many problems in WvW right now.

#73 Straegen

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 05:34 PM

In WvW thieves can walk up to you from any direction at full speed without seeing them, open for 5k+ damage, stack a bunch of bleeds, cloak and run away. If there is a lot of action going on, they don't even uncloak when it happens allowing them to cycle with little fear of being hit. There is no ability/skill that allows a player to see them, AoEs do not break stealth, cannot target lock them as stealth breaks that, they can spike you while fully cloaked, they can cloak a big number of people for a mesmer bomb and they are one of the faster classes in the game. Anyone who plays a lot of WvW who isn't full of sh** knows thieves are powerful.  They tend to hit like a truck and run off if it doesn't kill their target or cycle and go at it again.

Edited by Straegen, 11 January 2013 - 05:35 PM.


#74 Red_Falcon

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 06:27 PM

There is no such thing as a "permastealth" thief.
The only thing that gets close to permanent stealth is using CnD right before unstealthing, but that is very unlikely to kill anyone and especially anyone with a couple braincells will 3shot you while you're stealthed.

#75 Dirame

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 06:57 PM

Personally, I found that activating any CC (immob, kd, stun etc) right before they enter steal works. Most CC isn't insta-cast so activating a skill right before the thief goes into stealth ensures they are in the same place they activated their stealth initially. Dropping damage on that spot is what I find to be the key to beating them. Also, condition removal, it's really hard for them to do anything other than bleeding and poison.

Edited by Dirame, 11 January 2013 - 07:06 PM.


#76 ProfGast

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 07:52 PM

View PostRed_Falcon, on 11 January 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

There is no such thing as a "permastealth" thief.
The only thing that gets close to permanent stealth is using CnD right before unstealthing, but that is very unlikely to kill anyone and especially anyone with a couple braincells will 3shot you while you're stealthed.
Permastealth is actually achievable by juggling smoke fields and leap/blasts :-P

That said the complaint that is being voiced right now isn't true permanent stealth as seen by superbly timed cloak and daggers.  It's more of a complaint on the nature of stealth and the thief's ability to repeatedly take advantage of a bug in stealth.  When you strike someone out of stealth it is SUPPOSED to unstealth you, then reveal you (unable to restealth) for 3 seconds, thus giving players a chance to retaliate.  What actually happens is that the thief "unstealths" but does not render on the other player's screen for up to 2 more seconds.  The uncloak happens, and they are tab targettable, but you can't actually see player model or name during this additional stealth period.  This gives most thieves only 1 second of visibility on their opponent's screens before they step in and cloak and dagger something to repeat their stealth attack combo.

For some reason, a lot of thief players have not noticed the above problem (probably because they are the ones stealthing) but anyone who fights AGAINST thieves in WvW a lot will have noticed this.  That's why they're referred to as "Permastealth," and why most WvWers despise good */D thieves. The bad ones die just the same when you swat them but the good ones have their survivability magnified tenfold and still maintain the ability to flee from practically any engagement.

#77 MrForz

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 10:01 PM

View PostEliyahu, on 11 January 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

Hold on guys, I think it's trying to communicate.

Seriously, all you're missing is #YOLOSWAG.  Grow up and stop derailing the thread because you can't stroke your own 12 year old ego.

I love you, you stole what was supposed to be my answer but I love you.


View PostEliyahu, on 11 January 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

I've pretty much accepted that */D thieves in WvW are exploiters and have simply stopped caring about them.  Maybe someday ANet will fix this, maybe they won't.  It's just one of many problems in WvW right now.

*Raises hand* I can't believe the rendering problems haven't been touched yet. Especially with the massive updates they've made such as the Karkas and all, I'm sure they know this but they feel the need to add exciting content ruined by the rendering problems instead of doing the reverse, fix the bug then release exciting content.

And out of frustration, I wouldn't mind getting stealth to be disabled when taking damage.

#78 BnJ

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 11:53 PM

View PostProfGast, on 11 January 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

That said the complaint that is being voiced right now isn't true permanent stealth as seen by superbly timed cloak and daggers.  It's more of a complaint on the nature of stealth and the thief's ability to repeatedly take advantage of a bug in stealth.  When you strike someone out of stealth it is SUPPOSED to unstealth you, then reveal you (unable to restealth) for 3 seconds, thus giving players a chance to retaliate.  What actually happens is that the thief "unstealths" but does not render on the other player's screen for up to 2 more seconds.  The uncloak happens, and they are tab targettable, but you can't actually see player model or name during this additional stealth period.  This gives most thieves only 1 second of visibility on their opponent's screens before they step in and cloak and dagger something to repeat their stealth attack combo.

For some reason, a lot of thief players have not noticed the above problem (probably because they are the ones stealthing) but anyone who fights AGAINST thieves in WvW a lot will have noticed this.  That's why they're referred to as "Permastealth," and why most WvWers despise good */D thieves. The bad ones die just the same when you swat them but the good ones have their survivability magnified tenfold and still maintain the ability to flee from practically any engagement.

This is the problem.

Until ANet fixes the culling issue, there will be constant bitching about stealth.




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