24 replies to this topic

[Aodan]

The one thing that I've notice Arena Net fail to address in this game is nerfing a profession and making them useless or a hindrance to team comps in competitive play and has been the last piece of straw to break my back on defending this game, especially when it comes to competitive play/balance.

The nerf to Engi Nades was needed, but the amount of the nerf and the lack of giving them anything has made them fairly ignored in comps apart from being a home defense bunker (most boring way to play a engi and leads to easy back caps by a dbl grd comp)

The "nerf" to Mesmers with phantasms and iBeserker has really hit the total dps and cleave that Mesmers had going for them in team fights with time warp.

The still very apparent meta with dbl grd, esp now that Mesmers have been nerfed fairly hard.

There are other things here and there but that aren't as huge (like some ele issues)

Now I made this title to attract attention and to talk about Anet's "philosophy" with "nerfing" and how what they say they will do is not actually what they have done.

Many nerfs even if "needed" have been pretty extreme, they have not been "little" by "little"

The nerf to Mes and Engi's are the most apparent when it comes to this. They have seen a 25% + nerf in damage overall in their respective "meta" builds that have now made them very iffy in comps.
(Then shortly after, comments made that things will be re-evaluated, etc)

How is this "Little by Little"? You basically have 2 professions that you won't see in paids unless the engi is home bunker or offensive bunker (now 2-3 bunkers a comp) and mesmers are just fubar because there really is no reason to bring them over a ranger or grd.


FYI:

I personally just picked up Mes and I'm very dismayed that I now have to bench him when I log on for Paid ques, because apart from time warp and little support you can do with staff with iwarlock suffering from the nerf too, makes filling that spot with a grd just a way better choice. (I personally try NOT to run dbl grd, because I feel it teaches you nothing for when it will eventually get touched).



Question

Do you feel that Anet is really balancing this game at this point after release?
Do you feel like their "January balance patch" will really solve all the issues plaguing pvp?

Edited by Aodan, 09 December 2012 - 06:01 PM.

[NotKMoose]

Do you feel that Anet is really balancing this game at this point after release?

No, the November patch was enough to see proof of that.  I don't bother playing PvP on my Ranger, Warrior, Guard, Necro anymore because my Thief is just so much better at staying alive and banging people out without much trouble.  

Do you feel like their "January balance patch" will really solve all the issues plaguing pvp?

No, I'll probably still be playing but I don't see them releasing any broad fixes to balance broken mechanics of the game that could and should have been changed much earlier on into the game's release.

[Aodan]

NotKMoose, on 09 December 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

Do you feel that Anet is really balancing this game at this point after release?

No, the November patch was enough to see proof of that.  I don't bother playing PvP on my Ranger, Warrior, Guard, Necro anymore because my Thief is just so much better at staying alive and banging people out without much trouble.  

Do you feel like their "January balance patch" will really solve all the issues plaguing pvp?

No, I'll probably still be playing but I don't see them releasing any broad fixes to balance broken mechanics of the game that could and should have been changed much earlier on into the game's release.

First thank you for a great reply.

I feel the same and I feel that some "named patch" isn't going to address any of the major issues because I feel that the dbl grd meta (which can be countered and beaten) and other things like EU's tank Ele's would take a very broad balancing across all professions to really "truely" balance, and maybe that's what they have in mind.

As for now, I think how they've approached balancing, esp with all the feedback from both casual and competitive players, is unacceptable. They simply nerf multiple things down and then give nothing to make other builds or "hybrids" more viable.

The only nerf where this was acceptable was the outright healing that Ele's had in their old support build, the block bug, and Mesmer portal timer. Every other nerf has been fairly over the top and not spot on. (The mentioned nerfs had almost the whole community behind saying the changed needed to happen and look how long they took to fix the block bug and savnir)

[FBRin]

Let's be honest though, there aren't really enough competitive players to get decent feedback from. When you've got only 4-5 competitive teams around the world it's pretty hard to put together an unbiased set of nerfs/buffs.

[Aodan]

FBRin, on 09 December 2012 - 08:09 AM, said:

Let's be honest though, there aren't really enough competitive players to get decent feedback from. When you've got only 4-5 competitive teams around the world it's pretty hard to put together an unbiased set of nerfs/buffs.

Those 4-5 teams have a better idea of balance than 90% of the casual base.

There are 4-6 EU teams very active right now and probably 3-4 US teams, this isn't because of balance per say, it's more of the lack of tools given to the community that drove the community into the small group it is now. I've personally seen 5-8 players/friends quit the game because it simply isn't worth it if all you have to do for competition is grind a QP ladder.

But really that's a whole nother conversation.

In regards to your very blanket and uneducated statement, there is plenty "enough" competitive players to get decent feedback from, esp on the EU side. Bias nerfs/buffs tend to come from the casual community more than the competitive. Please keep that in mind.

The issue with US feedback atm is many teams are running hard meta or just "farming" QP so there is little testing or breaking the mold going on in US.

When I ran BAMF before we had 2 quit the game, was G,El,Thf,Nec,Mes and we did very well and even got up to 350 on BoK against PZ with 3 grds and we beat had close matches with everyone but PTC (never got to a que against them).

Qt is coming up and so is JBUO , but the last thing on US that really "came" out was Jajja's necro build.

EU is where the evolving meta is happening atm, and because they have still a fairly strong community just clinging to the game, look at the recruitment thread, there are tons of new teams forming. US is die'n because ppl are sick of tournaments in their current state and many don't care to climb a QP ladder that requires so much time invested with little to no reward.

This is a big reason why Custom Arenas need to be a priority over some stupid rank/mmr system reboot. But see Raytek's/Jacobin (Gamma Wolf) threads if you really want to know the nitty griddy about why the US side of pvp is die'n slowly and painfully.

Edited by Aodan, 09 December 2012 - 09:26 AM.

[Dirame]

Not sure what you're talking about Aodan, I see plenty of mesmers. Double mesmer teams are even more common now so with regards to mesmers, I don't see your point.

With regards to engineers though, I believe you're right but that nerf was needed and it's sad to see it not being used in a lot of teams but, the nerf was needed.

[Veles]

Whole balancing issues come from the fact that they went with conquest mode as only PVP mode in this game. Bunker builds and Guardians being OP to the extreme are the direct results of Conquest mode, same is with Ele`s, same is with Mesmers being OP (at least until now, cannot say since I am not playing for a while) with best mobility in game, same was with Engi`s at one point. When winning means that you can stay alive longest on one one spot and not actually outplaying your opponent by just "outPVPing" him then you have a problem and we all know in which state is the game now due to this.

I would even go further and say that GW2 has problems that are even deeper then Conquest mode but that is discussion that would lead this thread really OT, so do not want to go into that.

Edited by Veles, 09 December 2012 - 02:12 PM.

[Aodan]

Dirame, on 09 December 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

Not sure what you're talking about Aodan, I see plenty of mesmers. Double mesmer teams are even more common now so with regards to mesmers, I don't see your point.

With regards to engineers though, I believe you're right but that nerf was needed and it's sad to see it not being used in a lot of teams but, the nerf was needed.

I agree about the nerf, but they have said their philosophy  is to do things little by little, a 25% dmg nerf to nades is not "little".

Dbl mes is easily countered by dbl grd, did it against Zzyzx when he tried to pull a dbl mes on FoN. The issue is the mid "support" role that mes had when being home point defenders or portal defenders is now nerfed significantly to the point that running GS has lost a lot of it's charm. iBeserker and iWarden respectively were half the damage on those weapons esp pre shatter.

Veles, on 09 December 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

Whole balancing issues come from the fact that they went with conquest mode as only PVP mode in this game. Bunker builds and Guardians being OP to the extreme are the direct results of Conquest mode, same is with Ele`s, same is with Mesmers being OP (at least until now, cannot say since I am not playing for a while) with best mobility in game, same was with Engi`s at one point. When winning means that you can stay alive longest on one one spot and not actually outplaying your opponent by just "outPVPing" him then you have a problem and we all know in which state is the game now due to this.

I would even go further and say that GW2 has problems that are even deeper then Conquest mode but that is discussion that would lead this thread really OT, so do not want to go into that.

I do agree that "conquest" leads to bunkers, and there isn't an issue with having bunkers, the issue is when running two of the same professions in bunker and bunerkish builds becomes a statement of imbalance not because of the builds but because nothing presently is more viable or a for sure counter.

(However, I think for an MMO in competitive leagues, etc, conquest is the best mode, the issue that I bring up in my central argument is that Anet is simply nerfing things without making other alternatives more viable or usable in top tier play.)

When I ran my comp, we oftenly sent our ele on FoN with the thief to harass far if we got strong timer counts in mid or botched a cross over, but currently and this is my biggest issue with dbl grd, a retal/tank guardian (GS/H) is probably the best solo far harass in the game and nothing else is more viable when you HAVE to commit two players to home point unless you sit a necro or ranger on home point.

Also just to make this clear, the long que times and stuff currently for paid isn't due to balance but due to the fact that the QP system and the ladder are faulty ways to provide a real competitive community and simply adding a better MMR/Rank system and/or solo que will not change the current climate.

Edited by Aodan, 09 December 2012 - 06:12 PM.

[Seetherrr]

I pretty much don't agree with any part of your analysis of the mesmer and engi nerf.  Elaboration on my beliefs is largely a waste of time in these discussions since the following point/counterpoints are things which can not be easily evaluated in an objective manner.

[Aodan]

Seetherrr, on 09 December 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

I pretty much don't agree with any part of your analysis of the mesmer and engi nerf.  Elaboration on my beliefs is largely a waste of time in these discussions since the following point/counterpoints are things which can not be easily evaluated in an objective manner.

So do you feel that the Engineer Nerf wasn't a gross nerf that could of been done in smaller amounts to adjust it accordingly instead of just basically stomping it out?

Do you feel that the apparent over nerf of Mes phantasms?
(Over nerf because john and others have stated they plan to fix the current delay and missing the iB is having)

Do you feel that these over steps are acceptable when it comes to balancing GW2 without allowing other builds to be more viable in the meantime?

I mean seriously, that doesn't seem like sound balancing, when they nerf something so hard and come back to say, "oh we are looking into how to better balance that or bring back the dps up, but for now you just gotta deal"

To me, that sounds like Blizzard balance, except they have content for their pvpers, all we get is a random casual map and paid tournies after 3 months of release.

Edited by Aodan, 09 December 2012 - 08:02 PM.

[FBRin]

Aodan, on 09 December 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

In regards to your very blanket and uneducated statement, there is plenty "enough" competitive players to get decent feedback from, esp on the EU side. Bias nerfs/buffs tend to come from the casual community more than the competitive. Please keep that in mind.

You didn't exactly disagree with me though. While the casual playerbase is definitely the main source for biased changes, high-rated/'pro' players also make plenty of biased suggestions. There are simply more casual players obviously. You can look to pretty much any competitive game for proof of that.

[Aodan]

FBRin, on 09 December 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

You didn't exactly disagree with me though. While the casual playerbase is definitely the main source for biased changes, high-rated/'pro' players also make plenty of biased suggestions. There are simply more casual players obviously. You can look to pretty much any competitive game for proof of that.

League of Legends probably has little to no input from the casual base. The only time they really have input is when a new hero is OP which is the case to drive sales.

My disagreement was that there are plenty enough competitive high tier players who can give great feedback esp EU side, but the fact of the matter is that Anet has no test shard, and keeps internal super quiet, so many never get to hear much input.

The nerfs to Engi and the screw ups on Mes recently show  a lack of input period.

Well thought out nerf: 90s on Portal from 65. It was reasonable, didn't annihilate it's use, made it more balanced.
Bad Nerf: Stripping a whole bunch of damage from nades on Engi while allowing Necro wells to be the same.

[the butcher]

Well friday will be exciting, both ingame and on forums. They said a huge batch of balance work will be coming the 14th.

[Aodan]

the butcher, on 10 December 2012 - 01:18 AM, said:

Well friday will be exciting, both ingame and on forums. They said a huge batch of balance work will be coming the 14th.

I'm not keeping my hopes up, I want to see a evenly distributed balance patch that more or so brings everything on a similar field.

When doing competitive play a balanced comp should be the most advantageous, with heavier oriented comps being one trick.

For Example
Heavy Burst - Dbl Mes, War + Thf, Thf + Mes
Heavy Condition - Dbl Necro, Nec+Engi, Engi+Ranger
Heavy Bunker - Dbl Grd, Dbl Engi, Ele+Engi, Ele+Grd
Balance - 2 burst 1 condi 2 bunkers or bunker + hybrid
Balance - 2 condi 1 burst 2 bunkers or bunker + hybrid

The issue with this is that some professions builds can really only fulfill one role in certain situations and against certain comps.

[Wifflebottom]

Here's what I'm getting from Anet's attempt at balance. They don't like bunkers unlesss you're a guardian and they don't want you to do damage unless you're a Warrior, Thief, or Mesmer(and I'm sure shatter mesmers will get nerfed because you can't have a caster do damage nope nope nope). They've nerfed everything while buffing little and the only classes that haven't received major nerfs have been the warrior. I worry that the game will devolve into teams of 2 guards and 3 warriors fighting against each other while other classes are shunned because they bring nothing that teams would want. Obviously the soldier professions are favored and it's ridiculous that they haven't fixed many of the problems that have plagued Eles, Rangers, Mesmers, Engies, and Necros since the beginning.

[Featherman]

Instead of nerfing they should fix profession bugs and features to make them work as intended so people can actually play the specs they want. Then we can talk metagame and balance.

[Psikerlord]

I would like to see a minor nerf to burst, and a moderate nerf to bunkers. That might encourage some more hybrid/sustained builds and freshen up the meta. I think anet has been heading this way but isnt there yet. IDeally, for me anyway, fights would be something between 5 secs (glass vs glass) to say 30 secs (bunker v bunker), but everyone should be able to 1v1 everyone else. go to it Anet!

[Oblivion]

mesmers still do alot of damage and it's stupid to have one as a close defender regardless (especially with a squishy shatter build) and engis are still ran on EU. I dont really see the point of double guard but w/e.

[Isms]

They have been making small changes to what I believe is one of the most balanced games out there. There are no classes that you can't make work in competitive play. If you aren't capable of doing this, then it is a limit at your current skill bracket. I'm not trying to say 'lrn2play,' but look at classes like 100b warrior. These builds are OP as hell at the beginner level because everyone can use them and people don't know how to counter this. At the very top, warriors get laughed at when they try and bull's rush-100b. Also look at how people claim that ele is the weakest class in game. At low level they are practically non-existent. At the top level, almost every time has one. This seems like a major qq thread.

[nurt]

wtf... double guardian is not good..................................... stop saying it is.  any good team would much rather have a mesmer and a guardian than 2 guards.

[Happiness Factory]

I prefer mesmer as home point defender over anything else. As for Anets balance philosophy and what they actually end up doing... i think they do a pretty good job. Considering that I see just about every class in paids quite regularly I think they're doing alright. It's hard to make perfect balance, but look at league of legends as a reference... there are tons of non-viable champions that arnt used in tournaments. By all means that's nothing to strive for, but at the sametime balance atm is nothing to complain about.

Q&A time:
Q:Do you feel that Anet is really balancing this game at this point after release?
A:I do believe so, I believe they are also doing minor changes comparatively. I mean imagine if they had taken out the portal treb repair like they were talking about 2 months ago? That'd be a bigger change than all this stuff combined.

Q:Do you feel like their "January balance patch" will really solve all the issues plaguing pvp?
A: Uhm, to be honest im pretty pessimistic about any far out changes. When paids wernt available on release and delayed till October, I kinda lost all faith that Anet had the ability to do things in a reasonable manner. I mean paids were an available in some of the beta weekends right? If it takes that long to implement something they already had build, how long will it take to implement they have to create from scratch?

However, if they do end up implementing matchmaking in January, which i doubt, I do think that it will help create that casual playerbase that pvp desperately needs. I play frees everyday and queues pop 24/7 in under 2min, it's of my opinion that there are plenty of people to make a relaxed MMR system and not have ridiculous queue times like people are predicting. With the MMR system I do believe it will save some casuals from the more dedicated players like myself, and more people will be likely to play.

Side Notes-
@Aodan: Bro mesmer is still really good, timewarp in mid is still as gamechanging as ever, and teams without a mesmer home point defender are basically down a player and a timewarp in mid... Teams NEED mesmers.

@Isms: This isnt a QQ thread, it's full of valid complaints and analyzing data. You also claim that every class works in competitive play but you, yourself said that people laugh at 100b warriors because it's easy to dodge. Just read the thread, post constructive posts and stop flaming people please.

[Skyro]

I don't see the point in whining about Mesmer bugs that are going to be fixed next patch. The only really big bug is the iBerserker bug anyway. The other bug is just the delay b/w Phantasm summon and Phantasm attack which will get reduced by 0.5s next patch. Not the biggest of deals. The real nerf to Mesmers is the blind/los affecting Phantasms now, but honestly that was kind of broken anyway.

Also if you say you're just starting to learn Mesmer I don't really know how you can be in a position to comment on their effectiveness. You still see Mesmers all the time in paids. Guardians and Mesmers serve completely different roles as well, I don't know how you can make a direct comparison b/w the two. Also I would much rather prefer an Ele rather than a 2nd Guardian.

[Aodan]

Skyro, on 10 December 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

I don't see the point in whining about Mesmer bugs that are going to be fixed next patch. The only really big bug is the iBerserker bug anyway. The other bug is just the delay b/w Phantasm summon and Phantasm attack which will get reduced by 0.5s next patch. Not the biggest of deals. The real nerf to Mesmers is the blind/los affecting Phantasms now, but honestly that was kind of broken anyway.

Also if you say you're just starting to learn Mesmer I don't really know how you can be in a position to comment on their effectiveness. You still see Mesmers all the time in paids. Guardians and Mesmers serve completely different roles as well, I don't know how you can make a direct comparison b/w the two. Also I would much rather prefer an Ele rather than a 2nd Guardian.

As Happy brought up, the reason for a home D mesmer isn't for a "bunker" it's to use portal to get ppl from the mid fight ending to home point or to eavenly respond to threats to home quickly via portals.

If they send a bunker to home point than your conditioner takes the portal back, and later your thief meets up after mid is finished to support if further is needed. That is the advantage of  a "squishy" mesmer over a regular home point bunker.

Also you can have a retal/bunker or offensive grd hold home and he will win or should win all 1v1s.

Dbl bunker is more off the play of one mid and the 2nd grd (retal bunker) harassing home point as they can win against anything but a Ranger in 1v1 and thus forces the opposing team to over send players to home point to deal with one player = loss in mid or no pressure on their own home.

There are obviously different trends in US/EU teams, but till they compete against each other, I rather not start a discussion on which meta is developing better.

As to my main argument, my issue is like with mes, is they nerfed too much, intentionally or not.

[malevolence]

Featherman, on 10 December 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

Instead of nerfing they should fix profession bugs and features to make them work as intended so people can actually play the specs they want. Then we can talk metagame and balance.

^ This, 100% this, why not fixing all the bugs with professions? Like the Necromancer ones for example. I think they need to fix this first, and then talk about balance and meta. Some people just cry cry cry and cry about their profession or way they were playing, and what about the professions that suffers froms bugs? Aren't they more important than the nerf? And the nerf-bat, we all know ArenaNet from GW1 nerfs. This isn't new at all. Fix the bugs pls. Isn't that selfish that people complain about "their" profession being nerfed, and not complaining about real professions bugs in general?

Edited by malevolence, 11 December 2012 - 01:43 AM.

[Aodan]

malevolence, on 11 December 2012 - 01:38 AM, said:

^ This, 100% this, why not fixing all the bugs with professions? Like the Necromancer ones for example. I think they need to fix this first, and then talk about balance and meta. Some people just cry cry cry and cry about their profession or way they were playing, and what about the professions that suffers froms bugs? Aren't they more important than the nerf? And the nerf-bat, we all know ArenaNet from GW1 nerfs. This isn't new at all. Fix the bugs pls. Isn't that selfish that people complain about "their" profession being nerfed, and not complaining about real professions bugs in general?

I've brought up and commented on many bugs, and the iBeserker is a bug issue with all phantasms. I main Necro as well and right now they are probably the least buggy atm.

I'm merely using Mes/Engi as an example, the argument I address is the grossly over nerfing that Anet does without really addressing other problems that arise.

Edited by Aodan, 11 December 2012 - 04:50 AM.