Jump to content

  • Curse Sites
Help
- - - - -

What are your thoughts on Endgame hardcore pve, exluding personal story gameplay?


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
45 replies to this topic

#1 Trinity

Trinity

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 95 posts

Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:36 PM

  • What are your thoughts on the hardcore-endgame-pve, that doestnt deal with the personal story things?
  • Should any of the world events, be tailored to the Hardcore crowd?if so what percentage?
  • Should any endgame instanced dungons be tailored to the hardocre crowd? if so, what percentage?
  • what are your thoughts on hardcore solo mission instances.(similar theme to GW1 basically)
by the way, how else will the personal stroy features, affect the hardcore pve gameplay, outside of instances, and inside grouped instances?

#2 Matthew Browne

Matthew Browne

    Golem Rider

  • Site Contributors
  • 3172 posts

Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:41 PM

Generally speaking, the PvE hardcore crowd will probably feel more attracted towards the endgame dungeons, which I figure will be pretty hard. The Personal Story isn't supposed to be 'hard mode', but player-friendly.

And there won't be mission instances, as far as we know, now they're part of the dungeon content.

#3 Mister_Smiley

Mister_Smiley

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1546 posts

Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:46 PM

Give me more information on Endgame and then i will tell you.

#4 Khasar

Khasar

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 188 posts

Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:48 PM

Absolutely, there should be some end-game areas that cater to the hardcore players.

#5 Safer Saviour

Safer Saviour

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 857 posts

Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:49 PM

I want all the PvE to be fun and exciting, regardless of how 'hardcore' it is, but I'd love for some areas that are tougher than what people will face elsewhere - on the condition that there's no silly elitism and meta-building like there is in GW1s PvE. Orr is supposed to be more challenging than other open-world event areas and I hope that there's a lot of lore-rich, challenging gameplay to be found there. I'm also looking forward to revising areas (sidekicking down <3).

When it comes to dungeons, I really like the approach Arenanet has taken. By giving each a story, it makes them a lot more fun than just 'battle down to the end boss' and by adding some random elements, it forces teams to adapt and pay attention rather than cruise through using the same moves over and over.

I really don't want 'hardcore' play to be exclusive to 'hardcore' players though. A challenge is great but something that has to be 'mastered', takes several hours and can be torn through with some gimmicky SC build is boring.

#6 Lisletbh

Lisletbh

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1009 posts

Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:55 PM

I hope they use there own scaling system with 'raids' (If that is what they're called).

Obviously give them a limit of about about 15 people, and have a max raid group of 25+? So you decide the difficulty. If you want a 'hardcore' experience invite more people, if you'd like a fair challenge take less.

#7 Garant

Garant

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 53 posts

Posted 16 September 2010 - 11:02 PM

1. "Hardcore" stuff is fun. I'll want some challenge when I reach max level.

2. Should any of the world events be tailored to the hardcore crowd?  This one's a bit more difficult.  Because of the way dynamic events scale, I don't see this working out so well.  "Guild of Leet Rockzorz" would not enjoy when a random level 75 joins a so-called hardcore event that they are in the middle of, causing it to scale up, even if the level 75 was able to pull his own weight.  This would negate the "happy to see anyone" feeling that ArenaNet is trying to create.

3. Should any endgame instances be tailored to the hardcore crowd? Yes! Perfect place for challenging wipe-five-times-a-run fights.  I couldn't really give a % for this, there just needs to be a good "curve" of dungeons to choose from so that we have something at every difficulty.

4. Hardcore solo instance missions: maybe in the personal story? I don't really think they'll make the personal story missions too hard, though.  I don't imagine these fitting in to GW2.

#8 Unlight

Unlight

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 232 posts

Posted 16 September 2010 - 11:04 PM

Define 'hardcore' (without using the word 'hard' as an adjective).

#9 Matthew Browne

Matthew Browne

    Golem Rider

  • Site Contributors
  • 3172 posts

Posted 16 September 2010 - 11:06 PM

Lisletbh said:

I hope they use there own scaling system with 'raids' (If that is what they're called).

Obviously give them a limit of about about 15 people, and have a max raid group of 25+? So you decide the difficulty. If you want a 'hardcore' experience invite more people, if you'd like a fair challenge take less.

As far as we know there won't be party sizes that big. Although the vision is the same - you can go with 5 people (the max party size) and roll the dungeon with more ease than if you only went with 2-3 people.

#10 Timothy Paradox

Timothy Paradox

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 965 posts

Posted 16 September 2010 - 11:06 PM

Unlight said:

Define 'hardcore' (without using the word 'hard' as an adjective).

A music genre I loathe.

#11 Quinci

Quinci

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1765 posts

Posted 16 September 2010 - 11:36 PM

Unlight said:

Define 'hardcore' (without using the word 'hard' as an adjective).

Difficult?

http://www.synonym.com/synonyms/hard/

#12 Frizz

Frizz

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1581 posts

Posted 16 September 2010 - 11:53 PM

Trinity said:

  • What are your thoughts on the hardcore-endgame-pve, that doestnt deal with the personal story things?
  • Should any of the world events, be tailored to the Hardcore crowd?if so what percentage?
  • Should any endgame instanced dungons be tailored to the hardocre crowd? if so, what percentage?
  • what are your thoughts on hardcore solo mission instances.(similar theme to GW1 basically)
by the way, how else will the personal story features, affect the hardcore pve gameplay, outside of instances, and inside grouped instances?
Not this again -.-

but still:
1. It seems fine, whatever you define as such, but they did say there will be events that are harder than others, mainly the ones with the bigger bosses. These usually are hard because they go all over one map area. Sure with enough people it might be easier to beat.
2. and 3. There already are events tailored to be more difficult. ANd dungeons are basically designed to be more difficult. (they are not the substitute to missions, though may have a gameplay feeling they are)
4. You mean like the dwarven brawl and the norn tournament? I think, it might be fairly possible to make it hard in your personal storyline by concept. I dunno if they have done so though. I guess I would like them, but I don't see it necessary to have them in the game if the content is challenging enough. Especially in an MMO. It's a plus, sure.

#13 Lemming

Lemming

    casuals are terrible

  • Site Contributors
  • 698 posts

Posted 16 September 2010 - 11:59 PM

Unlight said:

Define 'hardcore' (without using the word 'hard' as an adjective).
Content which takes significantly more expertise and practice than run-of-the-mill to be successful in.

#14 Unlight

Unlight

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 232 posts

Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:03 AM

Quinci said:


Then any of the five-man, end-game dungeons can be made 'hardcore', simply by hitting a button to ramp up the difficulty to Hard Mode.  Everyone can see all the content and everyone gets the challenge they want.  Do this for all instanced play.  Simple enough.

#15 Solstice

Solstice

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 705 posts

Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:27 AM

Its strange, everytime I read 'hardcore' it always seems to be mentally translated to 'exclusive' ...

... Personal mystery ...  ;)

#16 Dexwyn

Dexwyn

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 635 posts

Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:32 AM

To me, hardcore means that it takes a certain amount of skill and a certain amount of time to Master. I like Dungeons where I can grab a PuG and lollygag through quickly, but I also love getting a dedicated group of players together and spending a good hour or so mastering a specific boss in a dungeon.

A lot of people don't like that and get aggravated by having to spend time to actually learn how to 'win' something, but, there should at least be one or two encounters in dungeons that aren't easy enough that a random PuG could manage it in one or two tries. I don't want there to be a lot of content like this, but at least enough that people who want to feel accomplished have something to do like that, and then something to show for it afterwards.

#17 Gigashadow

Gigashadow

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2363 posts

Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:35 AM

Skill required?  In my PvE?

#18 trollberry

trollberry

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 561 posts

Posted 17 September 2010 - 01:08 AM

I am hoping that the endgame content will require tactical thought, problem solving, good timing and clever usage of profession skills and teamwork.  I am not interested in content that takes 4+ hours to complete (I have a life outside gaming) or that equates mob count with difficulty.  I am looking forward to facing clever mob AI, synergistic skill use (of mobs), Boss fights that make you sweat, re-playable dungeon layouts and evil traps.

#19 Timid

Timid

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 387 posts

Posted 17 September 2010 - 02:07 AM

trollberry said:

I am hoping that the endgame content will require tactical thought, problem solving, good timing and clever usage of profession skills and teamwork.  I am not interested in content that takes 4+ hours to complete (I have a life outside gaming) or that equates mob count with difficulty.  I am looking forward to facing clever mob AI, synergistic skill use (of mobs), Boss fights that make you sweat, re-playable dungeon layouts and evil traps.

I could get on board with this. I want challenging content that kicks my butt, but I don't what the challenge to be logistical (e.g. you need to gather 39 other people), or time-based (e.g. make sure you have nothing to do for the next 8 hours). It should be noted that no matter how hard they make PvE, the hardest of the hardcore will still claim it's easy, and takes no skill.

#20 Snowblind

Snowblind

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 20 posts

Posted 17 September 2010 - 02:11 AM

I personally hope we will see content that will offer a challenge for all players, both hardcore and more casual.

However i hope we can avoid this translating into certain zones/dungeons being effectively off limit for a portion of the player base. Maybe have difficulty settings instead of individual hard/casual content? so say have dungeons that can be completed on bronc/silver/gold difficulty?

Additionally; please . . . please don't let AreanaNet make the mistake WoW has made and make 5 man dungeons become obsolete due to powercreep and lack of initial difficulty.

trollberry > Completely agreed, making content difficult by making it take a long time is the epitome of fake difficulty. however "winged" dungeon complexes can be cool and really give a nice feel to it.

Edited by Snowblind, 17 September 2010 - 02:14 AM.


#21 tetravus

tetravus

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 626 posts

Posted 17 September 2010 - 02:23 AM

I want endgame content that stresses teamwork, coordination, smart positioning and cross profession combos more than just emphasis on raw power. It could take only 1 hour to complete if everyone plays smartly using skills readily available to anyone and good strategy; but take much longer if you just try to power through without thinking.

#22 JL16

JL16

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 331 posts

Posted 17 September 2010 - 02:58 AM

I just want alot of dungeons which are challenging, and will reward me with items. Particularly weapons and armor.

But im sure ArenaNet will make each of them very rewarding and challenging to do

#23 Thyar

Thyar

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1812 posts

Posted 17 September 2010 - 02:59 AM

I have to jump in here and absolutely agree that I want to face, and be encouraged to surmount, engaging challenges along the character growth path of this game.

I don't mind if a 5 man instance takes a couple of hours.  Yet, I also do not want the entire strategic and tactical aspects of the instance merely to hinge on either group numbers or gimmick builds.  Instead, I would most like to see AIs that scale and adjust their strategies and tactics based upon the constituency of the group engaging the encounters.

#24 The Eskimo

The Eskimo

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 167 posts

Posted 17 September 2010 - 05:12 AM

tetravus said:

I want endgame content that stresses teamwork, coordination, smart positioning and cross profession combos more than just emphasis on raw power. It could take only 1 hour to complete if everyone plays smartly using skills readily available to anyone and good strategy; but take much longer if you just try to power through without thinking.

I agree with this. Some things need to be pretty difficult to beat and shouldn't be just beaten alone by a cheapo class, permasin for example. Too many times, in Guild Wars, have I been doing a mission or dungeon where someone decides to run ahead and try to destroy everything before we get to it so we somehow respect that person. It's pretty annoying but I don't let games really bother me. It needs to require teamwork, more than just "GLF -whatever class-" and then have the party chat be completely silent until someone messes up. People need to have to work together or fail.

I think there should be something that it's pretty difficult but is fairly accessible. The UW, for instance. If I went into a major city in Guild Wars, half the people there wouldn't even know how to get there but there are actually a lot of people who have almost mastered it. Something like that would be great.

#25 Hopeless

Hopeless

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 433 posts

Posted 17 September 2010 - 05:18 AM

The more stuffs the better I say :).

#26 fablespirt

fablespirt

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 182 posts

Posted 17 September 2010 - 06:06 AM

yes and no to endgame. I feel everyone should be able to see endgame stuff however I feel you should have a choice like HM in GW1. also most of the dungens should be geared toward the hardcore players. and every now and then through in special events for the hard core player. I'm by far not a hardcore player so these things if they are there I most likely not see.

#27 Rudaz

Rudaz

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 192 posts

Posted 17 September 2010 - 07:43 AM

I want endgame content that scales with the number of players you bring. I honestly wouldn't mind if it could scale down to just 1 player. Having played WoW for several years has made me tired of putting groups of 10, 25, or 40 people together. I do want the content to be very challenging though.

#28 tmakinen

tmakinen

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1382 posts

Posted 17 September 2010 - 08:25 AM

For my ideal endgame the best analogy would be a ski resort:
  • There is a wide variety of pistes available. While easy to access, they differ from each other based on theme, type of challenge and difficulty.
  • You are welcome to try any and all of them right away but if you choose a piste that's way above your skill level you will fall a lot. You might get to the end eventually but it's not fast nor particularly enjoyable.
  • Most importantly, the fun part happens between the start and the end of the piste, and getting to the end just means that you can then choose a new one.
If the process of getting to the end boss of a dungeon is seen as unavoidable drudgery that's there just to hinder the players from doing what they want (i.e., to kill the boss), then ANet's manifesto fails where it counts the most.

On the other hand, if the process of going through a dungeon is so enjoyable in itself that players wouldn't mind the dungeon being even longer, then we are getting exactly what was promised.

#29 Frizz

Frizz

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1581 posts

Posted 17 September 2010 - 10:50 AM

tmakinen said:

For my ideal endgame the best analogy would be a ski resort:
  • There is a wide variety of pistes available. While easy to access, they differ from each other based on theme, type of challenge and difficulty.
  • You are welcome to try any and all of them right away but if you choose a piste that's way above your skill level you will fall a lot. You might get to the end eventually but it's not fast nor particularly enjoyable.
  • Most importantly, the fun part happens between the start and the end of the piste, and getting to the end just means that you can then choose a new one.
If the process of getting to the end boss of a dungeon is seen as unavoidable drudgery that's there just to hinder the players from doing what they want (i.e., to kill the boss), then ANet's manifesto fails where it counts the most.

On the other hand, if the process of going through a dungeon is so enjoyable in itself that players wouldn't mind the dungeon being even longer, then we are getting exactly what was promised.

I guess you don't even need an end boss in a dungeon.
I wonder though what you think if the dungeon hinders the players from getting what they want? (i.e. to get the reward)?
I think if that is going to be a problem, then what is the point of playing the game? I think it has always hard to make a game that is as well as challenging as well as giving people what they want.
Ofcourse if a dungeon is hard, and it takes a lot of time, but the reward is little, why do it? Because the item there, as crappy as it be will have some extra value. I suppose.

The other way around, people that do not succeed will get annoyed they can't "access" everything, because they just suck at the game.
I wonder though when you do suck at the game, you should still get access to everything, or you're just out of luck. Either option sounds kind of bad.

#30 Timid

Timid

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 387 posts

Posted 17 September 2010 - 10:54 AM

Rudaz said:

I want endgame content that scales with the number of players you bring. I honestly wouldn't mind if it could scale down to just 1 player. Having played WoW for several years has made me tired of putting groups of 10, 25, or 40 people together. I do want the content to be very challenging though.

Amen. I would love if content could scale down to 1 person, but I'd still rather play with friends when they are available. The key would be flexibility; so you could bring however many people who had around. I'm not sure how viable that would be design-wise, but one can dream. And most definitely yes to challenging; accessible but challenging as all hell.