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Coron's guide to diplomacy - The 2v1 and you!


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#1 coronbale

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 09:51 AM

Ever heard this?

"[Red] and [Blue] are 2v1ing us, they are allying against us!" "You are right next to [Red], why are you not attacking them!" "Why attack [Red], they are in last!" "Why are we not attacking [Blue], they are in second place!"

Odd are, yes, you have.  Sometimes this can be the result of poor planning, or one step thinking.  Sometimes you can accidently get something to happen, and then there is the chess style thinking about diplomacy that I will post here.  This is a work in progress, and I would love input and questions by other commanders!

DIPLOMACY

This is going to be a long guide, so if you are not interested in macro map strats, or would like to just keep WvW light, fun, and pew pew, feel free to stop here.  This is a guide to outline how you can effectively use map diplomacy to dominate matches and destroy our enemies.

First off, a note on 2v1.  There are some that feel that a server should be able to kill both opposing servers completely.  This is the case of HoD in their prime.  They were able to take on the other 2 servers with no diplomacy, and no quarter.  With a more balanced server setup, those days are over.  SoS is good, but if SBI and JQ were to truly ally, we would come in dead last, guaranteed.  This is where moving from pew pew to a chess style of thinking will benefit our server effectiveness.  Let's give a small example...

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Green is fighting a 2v1 scenario against both Red and Blue.  Both Red and Blue have ignored each other for the last 30 min, and continue to hammer Green.  What should Green do?

In this case, Green needs to initiate what I have coined Hard Target Protocol.  This means Green falls back to Its lands, hunkers down, masses It's entire standing army, and DEFENDS ONLY.  This causes two things to happen simultaneously.  First Green keeps Its holdings in their own lands, preventing a cascade loss effect from the 2v1 by appearing weak to the other two servers.  Second, and almost at the same time, the enemy militia not guilded, die a lot.  This causes the next logical thing to happen, they hit something else.  Hard Target Protocol causes the enemy colors to find each other a softer target than Green, starting them to poke at each other.  In this case, Green should initiate HTP and hold in their lands until Red and Blue are in full combat with each other.

Here is where most commanders make the wrong move.  In a simple 1 step strategy (or checkers strategy), you want to immediately take the easiest tower or camp, and start pushing into an enemy the second they stop pushing you.  I'm going to explain this in cause and effect, walking you down the path to where this leads, then show you an alternative.

CHECKERS STRATEGY - ACT, REACT

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Blue and Red just started fighting on their side.  Green's Hard Target Protocol has resulted in them attacking each other, giving their lands a reprieve.  As a checkers commander, Green now goes on the offensive, assaulting Reds supply camp, and starts siege immediately on Anzalias.  The next logical step would be for Red, win or lose against the blue forces in Ograch, to head over and wipe up the Green siege on Anzalias.  Blue now has no opposition, and depending on how things shaped up in their hit with Red, may choose to continue to push them, or, and most dangerously, decide to go back to Green and hit them.  At best, you just lost a supply camp, at worst you forced the 2v1 back on you, and a full force hit on your lands.  Now let's look at this from a different POV.

CHESS STRATEGY - 3+ MOVES AHEAD THINKING

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Using the same scenario above, we instead hold our lands, hit nothing of the enemy, and maintain HTP.  Use this time to upgrade camps, repair walls, build some siege, and cap some PVE objectives to keep the ADD of your militia sated.  You instead hold for 30 min, and the map then looks like this.

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Blue has capped Ogrewatch and the supply camp.  Red is fighting furiously to remove blue, and blue is fighting furiously to hold Its ground it made in Red's land.  Which would be the right target for Green to hit?

Blue is deep in enemy lands, preventing them from easily responding to any hIt's at their rear.  This would make Quentens an easy target to hit, and would probably cause it to flip Green.  Lets walk that path for a few steps.  If blue gets an incursion into Its lands, what do you think they will chose, a newly capped paper gate tower in enemy lands that is being trebbed and assaulted, or It's fully upgraded tower green is sieging?  It will pull off enough to defend Quenten, probably resulting in Ogrewatch being lost.  The map is now back to the way it was before Blues hit, and you now risk Blue, pissed off at your attack to hit you.  Red is now the wild card, and if Red hIt's you as well, you just forced the 2v1 on yourself.

Let's see what happens if Green hit's Red.  It is at this time, when you blitz Anzalias or Mendons Gap (possibly both).  Blue is invested in Red, Red is occupied by Blue trying to force them out and keep their remaining land.  This allows you to leave a skeleton defense for small group hit's at your now upgraded supply camps, and hit a probably defenseless tower or two in Reds land.  Red, distracted by an already encroaching Blue, cannot fight both armies at the same time, and will lose land.

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Awesome, you now have caused Red to lose more land to you, but look at Red and Blue.  Red is Sieging Blue, and is close to forcing them out.  Good for Green right?  The more Green's enemies fight, the less they can focus on them!  What's better is Red hasn't even touched Green's force, they are so focused on Blue!  This is actually a very bad scenario for Green, and one that needs Immediate response.

Assume for a second that Green continues to push into reds land, maybe starts putting down siege at the keep.  While this happens, Red finally forces Blue out of Ogrewatch.  2 things happen now.  First, Blue is no longer invested in Reds lands, and is free to do whatever.  If they chose to, they can re-siege Ogrewatch, or they could push SM (owned by Green) or worse, into Green's lands!  Green, not wanting to lose It's lands, will probably have to spare unIt's to defend against Blue.  While this happens, Red is going to want It's land back, and starts hitting the paper gates of your new towers!  Where did it all go wrong!?!?  Here is where.

When Red started trying to push Blue out, the best move for Green would have been to help defend Blue's tower by wiping the siege!  Seems ludicrous right?  Let's see.  If Green helps defend Blues stake in Red, Red will start to get more pressure by Blue.  Blue can now continue to feed troops into red, distracting them from your forces.  If followed further, Blue will then continue to push into Red, starting to siege one of the hardest towers in the entire game, Veloka.  Here is where things get crazy.

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What the hell is Green doing!  Diplomacy at Its finest right here.  2 things that make Veloka almost untakable is It's distance from Reds spawn, and It's proximity to the keep for countersieging.  By placing the Green army in between Veloka and Red Spawn, you accomplish 2 things.  First, you cause Veloka to flip and go paper gates.  Never a bad thing, considering Green may want to take it in the future, and paper gates on enemy towers is never a bad thing.  The second consequence to this action is actually one of the most favorable, the psychological effect of this act.  Imagine you are Red, and you have a Green army blockading your spawn in an obvious effort to protect Blue from assault while they capture a tower.  Anger, rage, sadness, more anger, and eventual loss of hope.  This can cause a cascade effect making all but the most coordinated and seasoned teams bail on the map for something a little less "BS" on another map.  All to Green's Benefit!

From here, it's just a hop and a skip away from pushing Red off the map completely!  Notice I never said anything about who was winning, who was favored, who was a bigger rival?  Because It's all beneficial to your server.  Just because it immediately benefit's a second server does not make it unfavorable to yours!  Think about it this way, before your little Diplomatic move, each color had 75 PPT with SM giving one color an additional 35.  At the end of this Green and Blue had 100, and SM giving 35 and the keep in between giving 25 to whoever can hold it at the time.  More PPT, enemy towers and keeps being reset for upgrades, not many downsides!

BAIT AND BLEED - HOW TO START A WAR

Now, let's go back to the beginning of it all.  Assume now that Red is in fact the point lead, and Green would like orchestrate this cascade of diplomacy takes.  This will mean that It's main PPT rival will lose the most amount of points, allowing them to gain the lead.  Not all that hard to be honest, as simple as proper army placement.

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What the hell?!?!  I thought we wanted RED to lose.  Why are we attacking BLUE!!!!!  Simple map manipulation.  Assume Green brings Its entire army into blue lands, captures It's supply camp, then lays siege on Durios.  What will be Blue's response to this?  That is the core of this strategy.  You need to force Blue to gather every single soldier to force you out.  Once they do this, they will hit your army and force you off the siege.  Here is where the tricky part comes in.  Rather than fight to the death to defend your siege, you back off to the camp.  A good number of your army will probably die at the tower, a few more at the camp, but don't lose sight of the goal here.  Once the army moves to the camp, back your team towards Ograth Uplands.  Think of it like dropping Reese's Pieces for Blue to follow, but instead of candy, It's badges, your badges to be exact.

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Once Green has lead Blue into the north, Blue now has a massive force deep in Red's Land!  Once the pesky Green's are finished, What do you think they will do?  Odds are, Camp, then Tower siege!  At this time, Green will push Red, forcing them to split forces to fight both colors, and probably earning Blue a shiny new tower.  Once the flip happens, Green should push hard, and BAM, you have yourself an alliance of mutual benefit!

This can be used in MANY different scenarios, but easiest to show in a map like EB where there is no natural 2v1.  In a map like a BL, do the same thing, bring your army to the potential ally, attack them, then drag the response force into your other enemy.  Once completed, hit them from the other side, causing the 2v1 to be complete!

That concludes this episode, if you guys have any questions, critiques, complaints, or suggestions, reply to this post and I will get to it ASAP!

#2 FriendlyFire

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 10:46 AM

These are good strategies.

I think the hardest part of this is for the teams fighting with each other, against the single enemy, to realize at what point to go for first in the Tier.

In our case in Tier 1, any attack not against SoS, is "points allowed" or "free points."  Too often SoS orchestrates these strategies causing JQ and SBI to get caught up in it.

I will say it is easier when an enemy is leading the push on a common enemy, but a truly great Server will not take the path of least resistance.

Edited by FriendlyFire, 10 December 2012 - 10:51 AM.


#3 Chromatos

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:19 PM

View PostFriendlyFire, on 10 December 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

I will say it is easier when an enemy is leading the push on a common enemy, but a truly great Server will not take the path of least resistance.
That is a very interesting viewpoint, but it makes no sense in WvW or any war, or simulation thereof.
If I throw myself solo at an incoming zerg and die painfully, that makes me a "great" player? If a small group of people throw themselves at a heavily fortified tower, they deserve some consolation prize, even if they did not take the objective?

If, on the other hand, you manage to overcome a supposed "harder" target, by definition you have invested a greater amount of supply/manpower/time than the minimum required to do so, making the notion of an easy target invalid. There is no target of "least resistance", only more tactically viable targets.

#4 FriendlyFire

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:59 PM

Essentially my point is, if your target is not the Server with the most points, your are teamed with the Server with the most points, helping them extend their lead.  How is this tactically sound, unless your tactic is to never win?

Edited by FriendlyFire, 10 December 2012 - 02:00 PM.


#5 lioka qiao

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:02 PM

This is a good guide.  War (including WvW) is about strategy, be it tactical or diplomatic.  As a commander in the initial alliance you have to remember your alliance rather than turn against your ally when the enemy seems impregnable and to just stick it out.

This strategy guide relies on the commanders not remembering  their alliance and eventually falling in to combat with their ally.  If they can keep their militia in check they can beat you.

#6 Zheo

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:19 PM

Great guide Coron :)

As an aside...when I read the title...for whatever reason it made me think of "In Soviet Russia" jokes. Like "In America, you 2v1. In Soviet Russia, 2v1's you!". Its been a long night. I'm sorry.

#7 coronbale

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:34 AM

View PostZheo, on 10 December 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

Great guide Coron :)

As an aside...when I read the title...for whatever reason it made me think of "In Soviet Russia" jokes. Like "In America, you 2v1. In Soviet Russia, 2v1's you!". Its been a long night. I'm sorry.
LOL whatever gets you through that wall of text!  Suprised at the recpetion, seems like whenever I talk to most commanders about anything beyond pew and pew, they get glassy eyed and start watching the tv while nodding.

For those who are interested in higher order strategy, this is one of those games that will reward you week after week for it!  Well, maybe reward is the wrong word...  SOON!

#8 lmaonade

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 01:09 PM

best part of your guide, "hard target protocol"

I'm going to take a stab at it and say that most commanders know how to take things, that's the easy part, but what separates top tier server commanders and lower tier server commanders is their ability to lose something. If a server doesn't know how to handle loses they will be pounded into the ground in a two front war.

A 2 front war often ends up in commanders shouting at each other in team chat, "this and this is down!" "this and this is down!" "we're being trebbed from here!" both trying to garner more numbers for their situation rather than the map status as a whole.

Good point there, and I hope more commanders read it

#9 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 04:05 PM

View Postlmaonade, on 11 December 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

best part of your guide, "hard target protocol"

I'm going to take a stab at it and say that most commanders know how to take things, that's the easy part, but what separates top tier server commanders and lower tier server commanders is their ability to lose something. If a server doesn't know how to handle loses they will be pounded into the ground in a two front war.

A 2 front war often ends up in commanders shouting at each other in team chat, "this and this is down!" "this and this is down!" "we're being trebbed from here!" both trying to garner more numbers for their situation rather than the map status as a whole.

Good point there, and I hope more commanders read it

My goodness if you didn't just sum up what I've been trying to get across to a few 'thick headed' commanders. We are going to lose stuff. Get the eff up off the ground, quit throwing a tantrum and THINK.

I've been emphasising Calm Down, Slow Down, Do It RIGHT not just FAST. Sure, speed helps, but not as much as most commanders think.

NUMBERS matter. Ten players on a sprint to save Durios because it's fully upgraded has ZERO chance against a determined enemy with NUMBERS. So, STOP, RELAX, BREATHE and GATHER PEOPLE UP before deciding how to best respond. 60 second rule. When the smoke hits the pan, take 60 seconds at least to gather up as many recruits as you can, and then GO DO SOMETHING YOU ACTUALLY CAN DO with those numbers.

Here's another pet peeve of mine. UPGRADES. Yes, we need them. Yes they take time, effort and money. BUT WE WILL LOSE THEM SO DON'T FREAK OUT. Upgrades buy time when the enemy attacks. Upgrades NEVER win the battle, they just CHANGE THE PACE of the battle. And if you slow them down long enough, then PLAYERS will come and WIN THE BATTLE.

Some commanders have this thought that, "Hey, we've got this tower upgraded so well, even 2 dummies can defend it! It's my crown jewel! I LOVE MY TOWER!!!" But all towers will fall. Even upgraded ones. Then, when their wondertower is being attacked they DROP EVERYTHING to defend a tower no matter what else needs to be done. Then, when the tower predictably falls.... the blind red ALL CAPS RAGE hits them, followed by the LOST MY TOWER DEPRESSION and finally the LOG OFF MAP OF SHAME. For a tower? REALLY?

Any strategy can work given enough numbers and calm, level headed commanders who players like me trust. Any strategy can fail if you don't have the numbers to pull it off, or if your commander is Panic Pete and the Raging All Caps Band.

Great post Coron and great responses so far. I love the fact that SoS has deez nutz so big enough to openly share their perspective on larger strategies. Kudos and some well earned respect from me.

Edited by CalmLittleBuddy, 11 December 2012 - 04:07 PM.


#10 Zheo

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:28 PM

Forgive me if this was covered and I've missed it, but if you institute HTP and defend, and both red and blue attack you and keep you under siege, then what? Maintain siege and fight a losing war of attrition? Or do we send out raiding parties from the border and flip behind them to draw their attention?

Im presuming the above is the answer, but wanted to get some thoughts. Of course, abandoning one tower for further gain is preferred in my eyes, but the whole idea is to get the two sides to fight each other.

#11 lioka qiao

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:28 PM

That's kind of one of my thoughts too Zheo.  What happens when they don't start fighting each other?  How long do you have to wait for them to turn on each other and will they always turn on each other?

Its the game of chess where you expect black to take the bishop but what happens when they don't.  You should have a strategy for that too.  Will you share that strategy?

#12 Lalnuir

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:07 PM

View Postlioka qiao, on 11 December 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

That's kind of one of my thoughts too Zheo.  What happens when they don't start fighting each other?  How long do you have to wait for them to turn on each other and will they always turn on each other?

Its the game of chess where you expect black to take the bishop but what happens when they don't.  You should have a strategy for that too.  Will you share that strategy?

People hate wiping as much as they hate losing towers and keeps also sitting outside a tower for ages because your siege keeps getting wiped is very frustrating. If you can hold the other two servers at bay long enough eventually they will give up and hit something else.
Morale can make a huge impact if you can prevent them from capping a tower and keep them feeling like they aren't achieving anything it will wear them down how ever if they manage to take a tower it becomes significantly harder to survive a 2v1.

How long depends on your opponents, pugs tend to break faster than guild groups. The enemy having multiple commanders that aren't unified in their goals helps you as well because if even one commander decides to hit the other server they will pull some pugs with them.
You only need one server to give up and change targets to survive the 2v1 so pick which ever server is more likely to give up and focus on them. If you can manage it wiping people in the field is a huge blow to morale and having a small team to kill any stragglers moving from their spawn to the enemy zerg helps a lot too.

While 10 people won't be able to save a tower from 60 attacking people they can delay them for awhile, long enough for your main force to focus on the other server and only being called in to wipe siege and mass repair.

If you are being focused by 2 servers there isn't much else you can do, losing even one tower only encourages the 2v1, if your corner is secure and you have a foot hold in green why would you go attack red while they are also fighting green?
Sending troops to attack the other servers only leaves you with less people to defend and if you are being 2v1 you are most likely already outnumbered.

That is enough tired rambling maybe some of that made sense. . .

#13 lioka qiao

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:21 PM

It makes sense.  It just feels like this strategy has no way out of it fails (that is the enemy manages to start taking towers and gains morale).

The stuff that you do once you broke them is just diabolical.  I love it!

#14 coronbale

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:03 PM

View PostZheo, on 11 December 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

Question

View Postlioka qiao, on 11 December 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

Question

View Postlioka qiao, on 12 December 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

Question
An interesting question.  Lets see if I can answer it using a recent fight.  First off, never give a tower, ever.  Giving anything in your homeland is like ringing the dinner bell.  Given the choice, I would lose SM before letting an enemy gain a foothold in my lands.  At least with SM, you have a good shot of the other 2 enemies fighting over it once flipped, a tower lost in your own lands shows weakness, and weakness is death.

I present to you the situation we had happen to us the other day.  We looked weak in the eyes of our enemies by not properly scouting Darkkrait, and a 70 man zerg was on Golanta before we knew it.  They immediately start setting up siege and defending it wtih their lives.  Once SBI saw this, they started hitting Wildcreek with everything they got, and broke through.

The move I made at that time actually saved our lands.  Rather than try and split our forces and cover both fronts, I gathered everything we had (leaving Korvan undefended), and did a MASSIVE hit on SBI, not just assaulting their invasion force, OBLITERATING it within seconds.  Once I was finished, WHILE they had not yet released, i laid 5 ballistae at the entrance to the Dredge tunnel, and built it up (in view of them).  By the time we responded back to JQ, they were well underway with the siege.  We were left alone to slow work JQ back out of our lands, and repair the damage that was made without worry of SBI.

What is the difference?   The manner in which you send a team packing can have a effect on their next move.  If you give them a great fight, they might come back in just for the fun of the fight!  If you slaughter them to a man without so much as slowing down, they will think twice on facing you again, buying you time and possibly breaking the 2v1.

Great questions guys, keep them coming!

Edited by coronbale, 13 December 2012 - 01:08 PM.


#15 raspberry jam

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:24 PM

View Postcoronbale, on 10 December 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

What the hell?!?!  I thought we wanted RED to lose.  Why are we attacking BLUE!!!!!  Simple map manipulation.  Assume Green brings Its entire army into blue lands, captures It's supply camp, then lays siege on Durios.  What will be Blue's response to this?  That is the core of this strategy.  You need to force Blue to gather every single soldier to force you out.  Once they do this, they will hit your army and force you off the siege.  Here is where the tricky part comes in.  Rather than fight to the death to defend your siege, you back off to the camp.  A good number of your army will probably die at the tower, a few more at the camp, but don't lose sight of the goal here.  Once the army moves to the camp, back your team towards Ograth Uplands.  Think of it like dropping Reese's Pieces for Blue to follow, but instead of candy, It's badges, your badges to be exact.
But this is assuming that blue is a damn idiot and fails to read your guide.

#16 coronbale

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:29 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 13 December 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

But this is assuming that blue is a damn idiot and fails to read your guide.
You would be supprised at the draw easy kills can be.  We did this the other day, and this is how it went!

"Keep walkin back, slowly engage..."
"Alright, all non 80s, go ahead and stand your ground and die!  Give them some badges and keep them coming"
"Warriors and guardians, hold your ground, give them some more incentive"
"Alright, inside Panglos mine, sprint through the other side, and port back to spawn!  Everyone supply up and mass at Dredge and be ready to hit Anzalias!"

Never underestimate what a team will do for easy badges!

Edited by coronbale, 13 December 2012 - 01:30 PM.


#17 raspberry jam

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:33 PM

View Postcoronbale, on 13 December 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

You would be supprised at the draw easy kills can be.  We did this the other day, and this is how it went!

"Keep walkin back, slowly engage..."
"Alright, all non 80s, go ahead and stand your ground and die!  Give them some badges and keep them coming"
"Warriors and guardians, hold your ground, give them some more incentive"
"Alright, inside Panglos mine, sprint through the other side, and port back to spawn!  Everyone supply up and mass at Dredge and be ready to hit Anzalias!"

Never underestimate what a team will do for easy badges!
Then why wouldn't your team do it for easy badges, and thus fall into someone else's trap? Your whole guide is based on that the enemy is not following a plan. Thus all you're saying is that having a plan is better than not having a plan.

That's some *ing Sun Tzu shit right there.

#18 coronbale

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:36 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 13 December 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

Then why wouldn't your team do it for easy badges, and thus fall into someone else's trap? Your whole guide is based on that the enemy is not following a plan. Thus all you're saying is that having a plan is better than not having a plan.

That's some *ing Sun Tzu shit right there.
Absolutely, and whats more, the color chasing badges is actually going to benefit from this manipulation.  If they take my badges, then start pushing the enemy I'm taking them to, they will be hitting at the same time I hit, and will probably give them some points!

Your welcome Blue!

#19 raspberry jam

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:43 PM

View Postcoronbale, on 13 December 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

Absolutely, and whats more, the color chasing badges is actually going to benefit from this manipulation.  If they take my badges, then start pushing the enemy I'm taking them to, they will be hitting at the same time I hit, and will probably give them some points!

Your welcome Blue!
But in the end they'll lose. If they are following a plan (which you should assume they are) they'll either not follow you, or they'll try to screw you over later on.

#20 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:34 PM

The way Coron handles enemies going off script is large scale instant coordination. Without that, yeah even your own players become an unpredictable mess. The strategy posted is just the jumping off point, not the end of the line.

Do this first.

Add this later.

Try this if they that.

And let's assume that there's a ton of info held back, missing or even, dare I say, deliberately misleading ideas tucked in there. No one gives the other team their playbook. I think the purpose was more to justify SoS's actions as seen on the map and to dispute the claims that they are in bed with SBI or JQ (something that is claimed repeatedly ad nauseum). I see where this post is going and I like it.

You guys do a great job. SBI and JQ have gotten tired and sloppy from long stints in T1, and now kinda phone it in when it comes to large scale organized strategy with tight communication. Even if we did get back in shape, we don't have the combined numbers or resources.

Like everything else, tho, SoS will become like us. Pockets of stubborn grizzled veterans kicking the dead horse well after the general population stops even checking WvW scores. PRX leaving didn't kill them, but PRX won't be the last to jump. It happens to us all. And when it does happen, we'll be waiting. When there's no 50 man zerg to back the strategy anymore, we'll be there smiling and waiting. We have strategies too. Even these numbers out and then the meta game really begins.

You have to admit, don't you SoS guys want to see how well you could fair against a server of equal size? Let alone TWO servers of equal size? You've got to wonder about it, right? You guys are good, no doubt about it. But how good player for player?

Can't wait to see that day come.

BUT, probably there'll be another mega server when some of the lower tiers just decide screw it and team up. We may never get the chance to do that dance...

#21 lioka qiao

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:41 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 13 December 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

But in the end they'll lose. If they are following a plan (which you should assume they are) they'll either not follow you, or they'll try to screw you over later on.

The idea of the strategy is that they stopped following their original plan of 2v1 against green and are just letting things happen as the ADD of their militia forces them into combat with each other.  Green's goal is to convince Red and Blue that they cannot beat Green, either by hard defenses or obliterating forces.  That case where Coronbale wiped the force at Anz and then built up artillery in the tunnel is a good example this strategy.

Coronbale you're lucky to have a server that listens to your strategy and reacts fast enough to make it happen.  I can't get the time of day on Borlis Pass to do anything.  That will probably change once I get my blue hat but the commanders we have there had a hard time controlling their militia outside of their guild.  Maybe 20% of the group actually listens to the commander.

#22 raspberry jam

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:14 PM

View Postlioka qiao, on 13 December 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

The idea of the strategy is that they stopped following their original plan of 2v1 against green and are just letting things happen as the ADD of their militia forces them into combat with each other.  Green's goal is to convince Red and Blue that they cannot beat Green, either by hard defenses or obliterating forces.  That case where Coronbale wiped the force at Anz and then built up artillery in the tunnel is a good example this strategy.
Any winning strategy is a good strategy. But it still assumes that Red and Blue have massive ADD while Green doesn't. In the majority of servers this is simply not gonna happen.

#23 coronbale

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:25 PM

View Postlioka qiao, on 13 December 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

The idea of the strategy is that they stopped following their original plan of 2v1 against green and are just letting things happen as the ADD of their militia forces them into combat with each other.  Green's goal is to convince Red and Blue that they cannot beat Green, either by hard defenses or obliterating forces.  That case where Coronbale wiped the force at Anz and then built up artillery in the tunnel is a good example this strategy.

Coronbale you're lucky to have a server that listens to your strategy and reacts fast enough to make it happen.  I can't get the time of day on Borlis Pass to do anything.  That will probably change once I get my blue hat but the commanders we have there had a hard time controlling their militia outside of their guild.  Maybe 20% of the group actually listens to the commander.
Honestly, I truly think that is the biggest diffrence between a T1 and a T5 guild, the ability and willingness to listen to the commanders plan.  Keep at it!  Worst case scenario, im always looking for good people on my team!

As to us holding things back, or spreading misinformation, you are right.  This guide however IS complete, nothing held back, nothing wrong with it.  We do however, have plays and tactics we have not shared on this forums.  The fun is getting them to work, and seeing how the enemy reacts!  THEN and only then can you see how it truly shaped up.

Honestly though SBI and JQ have fielded great teams!  The fact that our wins are cheapened becasue we were carried by another guild, or it was PVE, or we have 15x the players in every single map only happens in the forum trolls.  We didnt start with this community, we recruited them, we built it, we encouraged, trained, and failed them into the team they are now.

One day we will get a loss on SoS (fact).  When that day comes, mark my words here, Ill tell you GG, and ill Fing mean it.  Bet on it though, we will learn from it, and come back stronger the following week!

View Postraspberry jam, on 13 December 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

Any winning strategy is a good strategy. But it still assumes that Red and Blue have massive ADD while Green doesn't. In the majority of servers this is simply not gonna happen.
Honestly, what would be the point of a strategy based on a dumb enemy?  Dumb enemies dont require strategy, they basically beat themselves!

This is working actively in T1, tested and true!  At the end of the day, a 2v1 always benifits the team, not the 1.  Why would one color opt out of getting those extra points they will steal from the third server just because they are trying to prove a point that they wont be manipulated?

THAT would be a dumb team, and yes, my strats may not work on them.  Honestly, strategy isnt a hard coded book of facts, its an idea.  If everything goes perfectly to plan, it would be booring.  Its when the enemy does the unexpected, THATS what makes WvW great!

Honestly though, it sounds like you are of the belief that any plan, and any strategy is useless.  All this guide is, is an educated guess on what the enemy will do.  If you think they will do something, and they do it, and you had a step planned when they do (like attacking with them for a 2v1), GRATS, your a strategist.  If you plan on an enemy doing something, and they dont, and you adjust your response, GRATS, your a strategist!

If red = dead, stop reading this.  If the color with the highest score is ALWAYS the target, stop reading this.  If the closest enemy is the only enemy, STOP READING THIS.  Its only going to piss you off.

Edited by coronbale, 13 December 2012 - 03:30 PM.


#24 raspberry jam

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:27 PM

View Postcoronbale, on 13 December 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

Honestly, what would be the point of a strategy based on a dumb enemy?  Dumb enemies dont require strategy, they basically beat themselves!

This is working actively in T1, tested and true!  At the end of the day, a 2v1 always benifits the team, not the 1.  Why would one color opt out of getting those extra points they will steal from the third server just because they are trying to prove a point that they wont be manipulated?

THAT would be a dumb team, and yes, my strats may not work on them.  Honestly, strategy isnt a hard coded book of facts, its an idea.  If everything goes perfectly to plan, it would be booring.  Its when the enemy does the unexpected, THATS what makes WvW great!
The strategy "works"?

Let me spell it out for you: what if Blue used the same strategy as you? What would happen? Or what if Red did?

#25 lioka qiao

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:05 PM

Please tell me you have a play named "the picard maneuver" where you have all your mesmers hit their staff #2 at the same time.  That would be awesome.

I'll work on building my guild.  It will take time though.  Having your militia willing to take orders from the commander is the most important aspect of war.  This is no exception in WvW.  You can have all the strategies in the world but if you don't have a troop to implement them they're just paper theory.

#26 Neo Juggernaut

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:32 PM

Great guide there coron, i can attest to this strat as ive seen it in action and rolled with your guild on the battlefields. interesting read for all of us commanders on all sides.

#27 Zhrek

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:44 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 13 December 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

The strategy "works"?

Let me spell it out for you: what if Blue used the same strategy as you? What would happen? Or what if Red did?

I would assume if blue used the same strategy, then it sounds like red would be getting 2v1 by green and blue.  Seems pretty simple.

#28 Bloodtau

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:45 PM

Too much free time.

#29 coronbale

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:11 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 13 December 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

Too much free time.
Gotta love something I guess.  For some people its cars, for some its skiing or biking, for some its sports.  For me its MMO's, and in that aspect im betting Ive spent less money on my hobby, and possibly gotten more stimulation from my hobby than yours.

One night of clubbing, $100+.  One night of facing the awesome tactics of my enemies on the open field?  Priceless (and free at the same time).

Honestly, if strategy and tactics are not your thing, dont use them.  Plenty of people would rather pew pew.  The great thing about what ANET has done here, is proveded a game that allows for your pew pew, and my higher level of tactical play.  There is nothing worse when you want to expand your play further than the game will allow.  As far as GW2 goes, were just scratching the surface of whats possible!

You can either be the ones who break the trail, or join us once its paved...  Its your call.

Edited by coronbale, 13 December 2012 - 11:12 PM.


#30 Arzqwar

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 01:06 AM

you have put many assumption on it. first, why you could say blue and red with fight together when they attack green before? so you mean u just defend and let red and blue meet together and fight with each other. however, if red/blue change their tactic, that is slow down their attacking pace, and let the others fight with green insanely, then your assumption later will be all worng.

I would like to say, battlefield is changing every seconds, your guide is quiet a joke since there are absolutely no such a guide or tutorial on battlefield. battle is depends on the sense and intelligent of the commander, to guess enemy movement and decide what should do. actually there may be bunch of possibility of enemy next action after their movement, therefore you just point out one or two possible action is meaningless. maybe in your own story green is the most clever and most success team, but on top of that, your assumption should add one point, that is the red and blue commander are noob, that could be proved that your story somehow maybe true




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