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Coron's guide to diplomacy - The 2v1 and you!


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#31 coronbale

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:36 AM

View PostArzqwar, on 14 December 2012 - 01:06 AM, said:

Words that dont belong here
Here is the deal dude, you either believe strategy and tactics are a real thing, or you don't.  By your estimation, NOONE should plan ahead, they should fly at the seat of their pants making calls on the fly, and only plan for the move ahead of them and nothing past that.

According to your train of thought, because you cannot predict the enemy, noone can.  So do you honestly think that anyone who reads my guide has a plan, and when the enemy doesn't do what we think, we just throw our mouse, log out, and go into the real world to kick a puppy?  It is a GUIDE, not a step by step how to win all and pew pew in WVW.  If WvW were so simple, none of us would still be here!

Have a challenge for you then friend, come join my map next week, your pew pew planning vs my tactical 3+ step thinking.  Well be here all week, and the next, and the next.  Secondly, why are you here?  Obviously the first paragraph was talking about you.  If I hate basket weaving  I don't go to forums where basket weaving is discussed and tell them all they suck.

Edited by coronbale, 14 December 2012 - 08:36 AM.


#32 Arzqwar

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:15 AM

View Postcoronbale, on 14 December 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

Here is the deal dude, you either believe strategy and tactics are a real thing, or you don't.  By your estimation, NOONE should plan ahead, they should fly at the seat of their pants making calls on the fly, and only plan for the move ahead of them and nothing past that.

According to your train of thought, because you cannot predict the enemy, noone can.  So do you honestly think that anyone who reads my guide has a plan, and when the enemy doesn't do what we think, we just throw our mouse, log out, and go into the real world to kick a puppy?  It is a GUIDE, not a step by step how to win all and pew pew in WVW.  If WvW were so simple, none of us would still be here!

Have a challenge for you then friend, come join my map next week, your pew pew planning vs my tactical 3+ step thinking.  Well be here all week, and the next, and the next.  Secondly, why are you here?  Obviously the first paragraph was talking about you.  If I hate basket weaving  I don't go to forums where basket weaving is discussed and tell them all they suck.
I haven't said no one should plan your match, but you need to design it wisely. in your own story, you already assume that your enemies are noob, you have your own plan but they didn't, and also they will change their primary target because your tactic is very well, not easy to break through or destroy, and then you become the fisher, watching the other two pathetic noob fight with each others  for you watching, LOL, nice assumption.

everyone should make a plan, but design a plan need to consider many factors, but your so-called guide just ignore them and continue  mislead others to follow your own perfect story.

my main point is, creating strategies and tactics is based on enemies situation, including with the ability of enemy commander, morale of enemy, and also the spirit of them. most of the time you cant beat a good commander with leading a group of high morale ppl, but you CAN beat a good commander with LOW morale. and how could you achieve that? there are many ways to do so. I would not mention too much here, since it is a long theory and may use up a lot of time

I dont know where is your confident come from, and i could say over confident is the most dangerous behavior on battlefield, good luck

#33 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 01:29 PM

View PostArzqwar, on 14 December 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

I haven't said no one should plan your match, but you need to design it wisely. in your own story, you already assume that your enemies are noob, you have your own plan but they didn't, and also they will change their primary target because your tactic is very well, not easy to break through or destroy, and then you become the fisher, watching the other two pathetic noob fight with each others  for you watching, LOL, nice assumption.

everyone should make a plan, but design a plan need to consider many factors, but your so-called guide just ignore them and continue  mislead others to follow your own perfect story.

my main point is, creating strategies and tactics is based on enemies situation, including with the ability of enemy commander, morale of enemy, and also the spirit of them. most of the time you cant beat a good commander with leading a group of high morale ppl, but you CAN beat a good commander with LOW morale. and how could you achieve that? there are many ways to do so. I would not mention too much here, since it is a long theory and may use up a lot of time

I dont know where is your confident come from, and i could say over confident is the most dangerous behavior on battlefield, good luck

I think you are confusing strategy with tactics.

Strategy is the overall design behind your plan. It's the foundation. Everyone comes to a map and thinks "We should do THIS." So, the next step is to come up with a broad plan with some guidelines. That's strategy.

Reacting to changing conditions on the map and using different methods to take advantage of what's happening is tactics.

Stragtegy is the IDEA. Tactis is the ACTIONS TAKEN. Tactics change as the situation change, but strategy should be constant unless it's not working. Guess what? SoS is in the lead in T1. Their strategy must work.

Strategy = IDEA
Tactics = ACTION TAKEN

His IDEA is to take advantage and even encourage the other two servers to fight it out.

His ACTIONS TAKEN are just examples in this case. I don't know, maybe you think they are bad examples of what to do, or not realistic.

The IDEA is sound and it works for them. And they can use any TACTIC they want at any time to adjust to changing situation.

Would you say encouraging two groups to fight while you repair, defend, capture and build is a BAD idea?

#34 Zheo

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:03 PM

call me crazy, but I think this Azqwar kid is just an SBI butthurt flamer. Coron, don't even pay attention man. Many of us appreciate your guide and suggestions for what they are. Thank you for putting the time into it.

#35 coronbale

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 06:53 PM

View PostZheo, on 14 December 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

call me crazy, but I think this Azqwar kid is just an SBI butthurt flamer. Coron, don't even pay attention man. Many of us appreciate your guide and suggestions for what they are. Thank you for putting the time into it.
Was honestly trying to see it from his POV, but I guess That is my mistake here.  JQ has been flaming our match forums, basically saying that SBI is dumb for not joining them in a lock hard alliance to bring down my server from the top ranked spot.  We have been accused of allying with both servers, and accused of promising them favors (I'm sure naughty ones) for their cooperation in taking out the enemy.

My guide here was to show, that a 2v1 can be orchestrated.  It was to show you that although you can slip and start a 2v1 on accident, the reason you are finding it happening to you so often is because you are facing a server that does it on purpose.  The guide is a mirror of the one that is on my servers tactical forums, and one that not everyone on my server aggrees with but that many do.

THAT is why the enemy finds it so hard to attack us, because if they are in third place their natural adversary is the place above them, THEN the first place spot.  If they then attack the second place server, and start gaining ground into their lands (and PPT) because we are also fighting them, they begin to climb closer and closer to that coveted second place spot, and push the other server out!

Maybe put yourself into another servers shoes, and see what its like from the third place perspective.  From second place, the only enemy to you is first place.  When third place attacks you they are an annoying fly buzzing around you, bothering you from taking out the only enemy available to you.  To them, YOU are the main enemy, and first place should be all for helping them pound YOU into third.

As for Coron's ego, at least I don't talk about myself in the third person :P  Give me time though, Coron is always looking for ways to grow.

#36 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:29 AM

View Postcoronbale, on 14 December 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

JQ has been flaming our match forums, basically saying that SBI is dumb for not joining them in a lock hard alliance to bring down my server from the top ranked spot.  We have been accused of allying with both servers, and accused of promising them favors (I'm sure naughty ones) for their cooperation in taking out the enemy.



See, you lost me on this one... all of 3 posters said that, Plus I was backing you up, and this Azweird guy is from SBI. JQ has nothing but love for SoS (we LOVE killing you... but don't do it very well *sad*). Really no need to generalize like that...

#37 coronbale

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:17 AM

View PostCalmLittleBuddy, on 15 December 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

See, you lost me on this one... all of 3 posters said that, Plus I was backing you up, and this Azweird guy is from SBI. JQ has nothing but love for SoS (we LOVE killing you... but don't do it very well *sad*). Really no need to generalize like that...
Not you man, you know that.  More the trolls, which is what this guys was.

#38 Alaroxr

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 05:35 AM

View Postraspberry jam, on 13 December 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

The strategy "works"?

Let me spell it out for you: what if Blue used the same strategy as you? What would happen? Or what if Red did?

For blue to incorporate the same strategy, they would have to be under siege in a 2v1 already. Each server plays a different role in this. There is the server that transitions from the '1' into the '2' in the 2v1, there is the server that continues to be the '2' in the 2v1, and there is the server that transitions from the '2' to the '1' in the 2v1.

In the example case, Blue actually benefits from this exchange already because they maintain status as the '2'. At this point, Red could try to incorporate the same strategy as Green.

View PostArzqwar, on 14 December 2012 - 01:06 AM, said:

you have put many assumption on it. first, why you could say blue and red with fight together when they attack green before? so you mean u just defend and let red and blue meet together and fight with each other. however, if red/blue change their tactic, that is slow down their attacking pace, and let the others fight with green insanely, then your assumption later will be all worng.

If Red/Blue stops attacking Green, then the Red/Blue remaining will have to 1v1 in Green's own territory, where Green has the advantage.

For example, Blue has three options at this time (which are the same for Red):

1.) Continue to attack Green
2.) Attack Red when they are in the middle of fighting Green
3.) Withdraw from the battle

This guide is meant to address #1.

In #2, this initiates a 2v1 in Green's favor so it's already a win.
In #3, this initiates a 1v1 in Green's favor so it's already a win (it will reset map balance since Green will push Red out, and Blue has already retreated).

In #1 however, Green is at a basic disadvantage. As you can see above, #2 is the most beneficial to Green. This guide shows you how to manipulate Red/Blue (or both) from option #1 to #2, and therefore turn a bad situation to your advantage.

Edited by Alaroxr, 21 December 2012 - 05:46 AM.


#39 Jedahs

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:18 AM

I can't thank you enough Coron for sharing this strategy.

I can count at least 3 occasions where I went from holding only our Lowlands Keep and then within 30-60 minutes walking into SM completely uncontested to take it while SBI and JQ were focused on each other.

It was great, we didnt even need to bring siege cause all the gates and walls were already down!

Edited by Jedahs, 21 December 2012 - 08:22 AM.


#40 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 03:59 PM

View PostJedahs, on 21 December 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

I can't thank you enough Coron for sharing this strategy.

I can count at least 3 occasions where I went from holding only our Lowlands Keep and then within 30-60 minutes walking into SM completely uncontested to take it while SBI and JQ were focused on each other.

It was great, we didnt even need to bring siege cause all the gates and walls were already down!

Was that the time that JQ took your lowlands last Friday?

#41 coronbale

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 10:52 AM

Guys guys, there is a whole forum section dedicated to the competition, lets keep it over there, and reserve this for questions and suggestions.

#42 JQspiesSoSrunstodoorsonly

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:10 PM

What do we when WM shows up on a map? How do we fight in open fields? How do we use portals like Rasa from WM?

lol

#43 coronbale

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 02:21 AM

View PostJQspiesSoSrunstodoorsonly, on 26 December 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

What do we when WM shows up on a map? How do we fight in open fields? How do we use portals like Rasa from WM?

lol

Your GM doesnt approve of your posts, and has been notified.  GL and HF

Edited by coronbale, 27 December 2012 - 02:45 AM.


#44 coronbale

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:37 AM

Bal, this is the guide I was referencing.  Hit me up in game if you have any questions!

#45 Jedahs

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 04:03 AM

Used this strategy again last weekend and took SM with ZERO resistance.  It was so funny.

Another thing I like to do is punch SM full of holes and not attack...then when the owner of SM ventures outside of SM, run in just swipe it.

#46 coronbale

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:36 AM

View PostJedahs, on 18 January 2013 - 04:03 AM, said:

Used this strategy again last weekend and took SM with ZERO resistance.  It was so funny.

Another thing I like to do is punch SM full of holes and not attack...then when the owner of SM ventures outside of SM, run in just swipe it.
Or hang out in your lands waiting for party 3 to venture in, break inner down, then ninja up behind them stealing the cap :)

#47 coronbale

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 07:28 AM

EBG in T1 (lol) is seeing a lot of this, so i thought i would bump for effect.




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