ArcherHenchman, on 25 December 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:
Again, if you'd like to compare numbers, feel free to go beat up on golems in the mists with a current thief. The numbers I'm putting up are typical numbers from recent tpvp.
Grandmaster crit and infiltration or air runes + sigil changes. Again, feel free to test against the dummies in the mists if you want to be able to compare current abilities accurately.[/background][/font][/color]
Additionally, your numbers on the warrior are cute: He was frenzied for the last hit and had been shortbowed down over the course of 20 seconds. Oh my. Look at that: He wasn't bursted for over 15k, just like I said!
Besides the part where you used footage which was 3 months old? Again, feel free to get current numbers in the mists if you want to compare.
You can't work straight back like that because of how different health plateaus tier thief damage. Additionally, runes and sigils do different damage amounts and food. A plate of truffle steak, for instance, is +200 power and 10% crit. Sharpening stones also add a significant amount of power.
The reason why I ask for the golems specifically is that a lot of the shit in this thread has been out of date, inaccurate, or intentionally doctored. I can produce screenshots of 15k backstabs too, but I'll carefully omit to show that my target was frenzied or that they weren't wearing armor, that the screenshot in question is 3 months old or that the target had 20 stacks of vuln on them while the thief had 25 might stacks.
The numbers I've given are accurate for tpvp.
Believe it or not, you don't get infinite utility skills, so if you're blowing your heal preemptively to land a combo that can be stunbroken out of before the backstab, you end up with an opponent who will heal off your cnd+mug and then proceed to faceown you as you have no follow-up stealth and you're already a good 6k hp in the hole. You could shadow refuge, but if you're trying to gib someone on a point, its either a mesmer or a guardian (of which the second isn't going down) and a mesmer who is relatively bulky is going to shrug off your combo regardless, and losing your refuge will significantly weaken your presence mid when you return there after having failed to contest the point. A mesmer that's relatively glass will distort out of your backstab then counterburst you, forcing a shadow step, which sets the mes up to reset the fight in their favor while they're sitting on a chaos storm. Refuge not only disengages you from the mesmer, but forces them to think twice before creeping up to mid with portal. If you don't hold them on their point prior to you getting mid, generally your team gets timewarped and that's no good.
But yes, please keep thinking that bursting people in tpvp is the only thing thieves do and keep using inaccurate numbers to make that assertion.
Many teams in paids aren't running thieves. 2x guard, ranger/necro/mes is pretty common. Ranger/Necro set up huge conditions on the point with wells + traps + epidemic while the guardian binding blades opponents into the combo. Mesmer blows up the point with shatters and timewarp as per the usual.
Comps with thieves normally use them to neutralize the necro in that comp and abuse their shortbow damage, only moving in to burst once the opponents have been pressured significantly.
x2 guardian is common. NO ONE runs x2 thief. There's a reason for that: half the classes in the game can shrug off anything a thief does.
I'll be patient with you and assume you're just delusional and think that burst can only happen at the beginning of the fight. I'll be patient and assume you're a bad enough Thief player to not recognize that the guy spent the fight Shortbow-kiting the Warrior to make him blow his cooldowns before bursting. I'll be patient with you and assume that even though you made up completely imaginary numbers from memory of "what should happen," you now feel that it's more relevant than actual video evidence, plus math equalizing the damage dealt to the present day.
Maybe you also missed the post where I accounted for all changes made to the Thief over the past three months in the burst, which completely discredits the "lol 3 months old" idiocy you spent half your post blathering about. Here, I'll even give you a link to it to save you the time!
The guy was even courteous enough to post his build in the video description, and - surprise surprise - it didn't even use the Grandmaster crit trait which you keep harping on about!
I just double-checked the video to make absolutely sure, and the Warrior wasn't naked, and neither player had any boons or conditions on them before the burst began. So given that I've already
accounted for changes in the past three months, I'll redo the math especially
for you, factoring in Frenzy.
Cloak and Dagger initially hits for 2510.
Assassin's Signet activated, Backstab hits for 7583.
Two auto-attacks hit for 1,682 per.
Frenzy activated. Third auto-attack hits for 4,282: without Frenzy this would have been 2854 initially. Factor back in changed Assassin's Signet, this becomes 3,282.
Finally, Heartseeker hits for 10,983 initially: again, factor out initial Frenzy and this becomes 7,322. Factor back in changed Assassin's Signet, and this becomes 8,420.
2510 + 7583 + 1682 + 1682 + 3282 + 8420.
In the land of basic second-grade math, by the way, this sure as hell isn't "under 15k." It's actually 25,159 - enough damage to kill almost any class, and even if it didn't, the Thief would still have enough utilities to chase down the mortally-wounded opponent.
Also, can I ask you a question?
Why the hell
do you expect me to completely drop my mathematically sound, video-supported, logically deduced argument and go run off to support your untested, make-believe, completely unsupported numbers (herp derp this is what happens in tpvp now i'm right and you're wrong), because you're too lazy to get off your own arse and support it YOURSELF instead of harping on and cherry-picking through footage on hilariously flimsy grounds? You wanna talk about "doctoring," why don't you read your own posts?
Remember everyone: if there is footage out there that completely invalidates your statements, it's obviously doctored or flawed and the people in the video are obviously doing everything wrong, because it's impossible for you to be mistaken. It's a good thing we can't all be as special as ArcherHenchman.
Edited by Falfyrel, 26 December 2012 - 08:20 AM.