236 replies to this topic

[Invoky]

The slash/slice/cripple chain takes longer than 1.5 sec already. Even if he had haste on, no way he could have done 10 skills on you in less than 1.5 sec.

I think the reason you only saw him for 1.5 sec duration was due to the WvW lag. Everyone knows that you dont see stealther to be reveal even after their stealth expire. The character just doesnt load until 1-2 sec later.

Stealth lag doesnt happen in spvp tho. If you let someone do that entire combo on u in spvp, then its your fault.

[itsthemzez]

honestly, i only just randomly que in spvp, but theives are usually the class i want to be facing lol. the main build out there is the glass cannnon heartseeker spam, its a joke tbh. i play all classes but enginner in pvp also so its not a class issue at all

Edited by itsthemzez, 07 January 2013 - 06:39 AM.

[RandolfRa]

RandomErrata, on 07 January 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

No other class has the ability to put someone down before they can even fight back. And the hilarious thing is he still probably had an escape ability left untouched from that rotation so if things had gone sideways he could have just reset. It's pretty messed up.

Mesmer certainly can do that on glass eles and thiefs: decoy => blink => dual images => mind wrack => swap to staff for sigil of hydromancy ice blast. They have to be pure glass for that to work though.
To have one more mind wrack, you could have staff on and do phase retreat between dual images and mind wrack or alternatively swap to staff first and then follow with dual images and rest of the combo. This requires pretty quick fingers though and is somewhat difficult to achieve in practice.

Edited by RandolfRa, 09 January 2013 - 05:11 PM.

[Sinnacle]

RandomErrata, on 07 January 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

Reason why thieves are considered OP is the following combat logs from a thief I fought in WvW (ironically on my own thief):

Steal 4.6k
Infiltrators Strike 2.3k
Cloak and Dagger 6k
Tactical Strike 3k
Slice 2.4k
Slash 1k
Crippling Strike 3.8k
Slice 3k
Crippling Strike 5k
Trick Shot 2k (not sure why that was used by my opponent)

That is the combat log verbatim from the moment he engaged me. I was down before I could even attack him (approximately 1 to 1.5 seconds). I suspect he blew haste on me and used a macro after that for his rotation. My thief has 13.5k health. Looking at the logs he had me down after somewhere around tactical strike and the rest was overkill.

No other class has the ability to put someone down before they can even fight back. And the hilarious thing is he still probably had an escape ability left untouched from that rotation so if things had gone sideways he could have just reset. It's pretty messed up.

You have 13.5k hp and probably not a lick of toughess any other class can down you just as fast with that low hp.  Your probably full glass maybe with 20 points in vitality tree.  You can't get through burst just based off the points you put in a tree.  You didn't see him cause of the character loading issue "culling" but your glass what do you expect to tank stuff?  A warrior could have done the same to you.

There are 2 sides of the fence and 2 fences lol.  Thief is OP and Thief is Fine then you have to apply to either sPvP or WvW.  You can't mix 1 and the other which is why the topic is all over the place.  People putting in counter arguments because they have played some sPvP but they you can tell from a persons post which mode they play the most.  

I can only speak on WvW as I have played some sPvP but not alot.    In WvW you just are going to run different skills than you are in sPvP.    Most videos I have seen and matches I have played in sPvP alot of theives dont run Shadow signet but in WvW almost all do.  That right there is just an example of difference and if SoS wasnt so good because WvW is so large then thieves would run something else.  Heck alot of classes with signet movement speed buffs would run something else.  

WvW is just a different beast honestly,  I run P/D condi in WvW and I lol when I put shadow refuge down cause people think I'm about to baslisk venom bs them lol.  Start dodging for no reason then I run up and drop caltrops on them .    

It really works both ways though since I am somewhat tanky most people think Im some GC BS thief and they blow everything they have at the beginning.   I have 21k with 2 pieces of PvT armor and PvT back piece and the per usual 30 points in shadow arts.  

Full GC thieves can get me if I shadow step is on cd and I didnt see them coming.  If SS is on cd then I have to dodge 2 times cause of HS to stay alive but its just the nature of the beast imo.  If there wasnt GC thieves running around then bunkers would be king in WvW honestly.  Another class that does work if I mess up is warriors in my opinion if you arent ready for the warrior opening your done and its harder to get away from than a BS thief.    

Really you need GC bursty specs to keep tanks honest even in WvW.  I consider P/D as a somewhat tanky type of play but in my opinion warriors win burst hands down. If your running around wvw without a stun breaker and condi removal then your doing something wrong.   If you play and observe you will notice there are still alot of people running around with neither.  They fight a little run back get out of combat and comeback again.

Edited by Sinnacle, 13 January 2013 - 06:56 PM.

[RandomErrata]

Sinnacle, on 13 January 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

You have 13.5k hp and probably not a lick of toughess any other class can down you just as fast with that low hp.  Your probably full glass maybe with 20 points in vitality tree.  You can't get through burst just based off the points you put in a tree.  You didn't see him cause of the character loading issue "culling" but your glass what do you expect to tank stuff?  A warrior could have done the same to you.

I don't really care to be the standard bearer for the thief is OP argument, I was just putting my $0.02 cents in. By way of context, let me add the following. I have three 80 toons all in full exotic gear (some actually have multiple exotic sets). One is a warrior (who I have played the most and with every weapon combination), one is a guardian (most GS and Staff) and one is a thief (D/D and SB mostly). I KNOW my thief had comparably low health and toughness in this case. However, I have played all of them enough to know how long it takes for another class to drop each one of them in general. That thief who nailed my thief did it faster than anybody I have ever seen and I've played a couple hundred hours of WvW between those three classes. No other class (or player for that matter) has managed to bring my thief down that fast and I'm pretty good at surviving on him (killing is different but...meh).

My post is not a "I died in WvW waaah!" post as I die rather frequently on all my toons since I often play rather aggressively just to see if I can pull something off. It is a "Holy crap, I was dropped to a downed state by an initially non-stealthed thief literally before I could get off an attack" post. And, to be fair, I have not seen my thief get dropped like that since so it may have been a once in a blue moon thing. But still....WOW...it was fast.

Edited by RandomErrata, 13 January 2013 - 09:54 PM.

[Sinnacle]

RandomErrata, on 13 January 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

I don't really care to be the standard bearer for the thief is OP argument, I was just putting my $0.02 cents in. By way of context, let me add the following. I have three 80 toons all in full exotic gear (some actually have multiple exotic sets). One is a warrior (who I have played the most and with every weapon combination), one is a guardian (most GS and Staff) and one is a thief (D/D and SB mostly). I KNOW my thief had comparably low health and toughness in this case. However, I have played all of them enough to know how long it takes for another class to drop each one of them in general. That thief who nailed my thief did it faster than anybody I have ever seen and I've played a couple hundred hours of WvW between those three classes. No other class (or player for that matter) has managed to bring my thief down that fast and I'm pretty good at surviving on him (killing is different but...meh).

My post is not a "I died in WvW waaah!" post as I die rather frequently on all my toons since I often play rather aggressively just to see if I can pull something off. It is a "Holy crap, I was dropped to a downed state by an initially non-stealthed thief literally before I could get off an attack" post. And, to be fair, I have not seen my thief get dropped like that since so it may have been a once in a blue moon thing. But still....WOW...it was fast.

Well if you have that many hours and it just happened for the first time it could be hacks since that many attacks just isn't possible in 1.5 secs even with haste.

[Ragnadaam]

Nettle, on 23 December 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

The problem with thieves is its super easy to faceroll bad to average players, which is why you see so many threads like this.  They are actually quite a bit more balanced at higher levels of play.  I'm not sure how you fix them for newer players without affecting their viability against good teams.

Nerf Mug into the ground, and MAYBE increase the length of the revealed debuff. Problem solved. Honestly, seriously, Mug is retarded overpowered for a 10 point trait, and SO much of this QQ would vanish if Mug weren't so imbalanced as it currently is. You can argue Thieves aren't overpowered, that's fine, but Mug is indefensible, completely.

Edited by Ragnadaam, 15 January 2013 - 05:45 PM.

[Fade_Guin]

I see D/D Elementalists far more than thieves. At least 3 times the amount, if not more. You may argue thieves are OP, but just this past week in WvW, almost every other enemy was an Elementalist. There's probably a good reason for that.

The only things that need fixed is culling, so thieves/mesmers don't gain extra stealth (and appear when they are supposed to), and the whole spooling CnD up, and then stealing and backstabbing.

[Caffynated]

Fade_Guin, on 15 January 2013 - 11:42 PM, said:

I see D/D Elementalists far more than thieves. At least 3 times the amount, if not more. You may argue thieves are OP, but just this past week in WvW, almost every other enemy was an Elementalist. There's probably a good reason for that.

You see a lot of eles in WvW because they can be good roamers and zerglings with the same build. All they need to do is swap out D/D or S/D for staff and arcana VI for VIII and they go from a potent 1v1 build to a potent ranged AoE build. WvW is all about being versatile and ele is intentionally designed to be the jack of all trades.

Quote

The only things that need fixed is culling, so thieves/mesmers don't gain extra stealth (and appear when they are supposed to), and the whole spooling CnD up, and then stealing and backstabbing.

I think that would be enough to bring thieves in line for the most part.

Quickness is still massively imbalanced, but that's a universal game design issue across all classes with on demand quickness.

[chado2011]

Before I gave up on my Mesmer, I always had staff equipped until a fight was underway. This was one reason.

On a higher level, games real twitchy relative to most other mmo pvp. Takes some serious getting used to.

Respond well and that thief is dead or running. Same can be said about fighting most glass cannon.

[Fade_Guin]

Toughness needs a boost as well imo. Even with 3100 on one of my specs, I got hit with a combined total of 16K from the backstab chain. I lived but it was pretty close.

[Ragnadaam]

Fade_Guin, on 16 January 2013 - 01:48 AM, said:

Toughness needs a boost as well imo. Even with 3100 on one of my specs, I got hit with a combined total of 16K from the backstab chain. I lived but it was pretty close.

I agree, though some people would simply say that this would make bunkers even more alluring and overpowered; but that is a separate issue that needs to be addressed anyhow, and is largely only a problem due to the conquest format of spvp/tpvp.

[Coooturtle]

TBH, in WvW, a roaming thief is very OP. But in group and team fights, they are essentially useless. The fact that they have very little armor means that they will die very fast in an AoE. But meet in a 1v1, and thieves will pretty much always win.

[mofogie]

ArcherHenchman, on 04 January 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

Mesmer burst prior to the bug dealt 16k+ total. It now does 16-18k instantly off shatters without blurred frenzy or magic bullet. Even before the change, mesmers could burst very hard.

Warrior burst isn't easy to counteract in the least, which is why EVERY warrior run in tpvp in paids is running a greatsword to aoe burst the shit out of people. Whirlwind starts up for 12k. Instantly. It requires no setup other than proximity, hits 4 times, which makes blind a mediocre counter, and has gap closing followups in bulls, rush and eviscerate. Warriors aren't reliant on bulls->100b. They have frenzy triplechop, evis, whirlwind, 100b all of which will down you. The counter to a warrior is keeping them crippled or chilled nearly constantly because they have dick all condi removal.

QT is currently the #1 team in NA paids because PZ broke up. The top QP holder on QT? QT Hman, who runs a burst warrior. The highest QP ranked person on NA? Java. What's he famous for? Warrior.

I guess two people in the top 5 running burst warrior against the best competition in north america means that warrior is easy to shut down, right?

Contrary to your claim, thieves actually put out the highest sustained physical pressure in AoE with clusterbomb, trickshot and choking gas is a long duration aoe poison + weakness which is essential to team fights. They're PHENOMENAL at doing aoe damage. When it comes to spike comps, teams run warriors and eles, not thieves, because thieves can be reliably shut down with blind and with traps/marks, whereas warriors can shieldblock into position then whirlwind through a backline and get 2 downs on his own, and elementalists have multiple setups to make sure the burst goes through, while adding a solid amount of damage on their own.

As for crit chance, both shatter and whirlwind do more reliable amounts of damage because their damage comes in multiple units. 75% chance to crit on a 4 clone shatter will give you chances for 0 crit, 1 crit, 2 crit, 3 crit and 4 crit outcomes, but the vast majority are going to be 2,3 and 4. Blurred frenzy, 100b, whirlwind and frenzy triplechops all follow that pattern too. With thief burst, the damage is binary, and the effectiveness of your followups rely directly on those chances because of executioner and heartseeker.

Regarding the inundation with thieves: tpvp is the mode that the classes are balanced for, from anet's perspective. If thief burst was overpowered, you'd see multiple thief lineups. You did in frees prior to the burst nerfs. You don't in paids. So how else can we determine if something is OP? If we attempt to make a statement like "15k+ burst is op" and ignore the utility and capabilities that you sacrifice to get that number, especially when other classes can do the same amount of burst, then we're in an odd situation. Are mesmers and warriors and elementalists currently OP too on account of the numbers? Well, people here have said no. As such, using a certain cutoff number is difficult as definitive proof of a skill chain being broken. We could, by contrast, look at the capability of other classes to deal with the skill chain; every class has multiple outs, and they've been discussed in the thread. Maybe steal being instant (heads up, you can see the cnd animation starting up before someone steals to you) is an issue. Maybe those outs are too difficult and pigeon-hole the meta far too much. Maybe thief burst is forcing other classes to play a certain way and that's detrimental, despite being adaptable. Well, that's another argument entirely. One that no one has made.  

The evidence on the table suggests that neither of those are true. Thieves might make point holding mesmers play slightly tankier, but beyond that, mesmers hold points against thieves reliably. This was the case before the shatter bug. They also do it without the help of moa or timewarp, because timewarp is generally kept for fights at mid. Lets be clear here: A wide range of mesmer builds can demolish thieves without their elite skill while running multiple team utility skills on their bar. Mesmers are the only class a thief will meet in 1v1 with regularity. Oddly enough, the meta has switched pretty significantly towards glassy point bombers. Warriors, eles, necros have all gone pretty glassy. Rangers haven't, but they don't really need to as most of their damage is condi anyways. If thief was overpowered, people wouldn't be going glassier. They'd be doing the opposite.

So why are people complaining if all of the trends in tpvp are indicating that thieves aren't a large consideration in team composition? spvp hotjoins are full of thieves; the players there are mediocre and don't react well to many bursty classes. Additionally, win bonuses are pretty mediocre, so participating in kills and moving on quickly is encouraged. Overall, this creates a relatively uniform glassy meta. Wvwvw has similar issues, wherein damage is prioritized in order to tag individuals for bags, with the added bonus of having long unprotected return routes for thieves to engage on. Both of these modes are characterized by a ton of individuals having no synergy or communication with their team to the point that wvwvw has a hyper expensive 'please follow me" symbol as a core mechanic. Tpvp, by contrast, has organized teams and people group up before engaging. This means that outpressuring a team is more important than cleaning a fight up. Regardless of your statement that this is conquest's fault, that's simply not the case; the straight up team v team fight maps in guild wars 1 operated on similar constraints.

Thieves haven't been pushing the changes in the metagame; the changes in the metagame have largely changed the way thieves play, and they've pushed it very much away from running d/d burst as anything other than point clean-up while a team has a numbers advantage. D/D burst is run specifically to get rid of glassy necros and thieves running shortbows, sometimes overeager glassy eles. I don't see how that's broken. Neither does the vast majority of the competitive NA community either, otherwise we'd see more of them.

Note: Europe's off running on a completely different meta, so I can't comment on what's going on over there.

this is very eloquently put.  all complainers should read this.  

now after some time, i now have played mesmer, ranger, warrior, and thief in wvw (and of course spvp).  for WvW, the warrior definitely has it bad, except for maybe a rifle warrior, or a supportive healer tank.  The thief is no doubt a kill farmer, and great in infiltration stuff. The ranger is OP AS HELL from a macro strategic standpoint.  My ranger is the unsung hero, or rather its pet.  No siege or wall defender is safe, and that has turned battles again and again, because in WvW, nothing makes or breaks an objective like siege weapons.  

funny... i dont see anyone complaining about the fact my ranger can kill all your team's siege and you can't do anything to stop it... let's have a moment of silence.

anyway mesmer: incredible in so many ways.  Just greatsword alone with 100% crit damage, is enough to burst down many players.Then let's not forget the incredible OP utility, like portal bombs, or mass invis ambushes, or flinging people off cliffs.  and if that's not enough, mes imo is still king of 1v1.  

all classes i've played on, have had no problems with thieves.  In fact, on my ranger and mesmer i feel even more equipped to handle thieves than on my own thief.

[prince vingador]

Coooturtle, on 16 January 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

TBH, in WvW, a roaming thief is very OP. But in group and team fights, they are essentially useless. The fact that they have very little armor means that they will die very fast in an AoE. But meet in a 1v1, and thieves will pretty much always win.

first i very very rarely lose to a thief,the reason they win most 1vs1 its because they spec to 1vs1 only and dont give a crap to team play.they can give 15k in 2 seconds and then just vanish,thats what pisses me of,they should be punished if they dont kill the oponent.

[RandolfRa]

Sinnacle, on 13 January 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

Well if you have that many hours and it just happened for the first time it could be hacks since that many attacks just isn't possible in 1.5 secs even with haste.

He was downed by the first 4 attacks:
Steal 4.6k
Infiltrators Strike 2.3k
Cloak and Dagger 6k
Tactical Strike 3k

Those take just about 1.5secs or a little less without haste. Steal and whatever 2nd attack you use, are instant. The rest appeared into combat log because he was getting beaten when he was downed.

Edited by RandolfRa, 16 January 2013 - 07:02 PM.

[Kitanul]

Saw this video a couple of day ago, seem like he can kill ppl faster than 1.5 seconds and not being a thief.

[Xentin]

Thats nothing new, I saw alot of videos of eles ownin in 2 secs. But they still say thief is op..

[Caffynated]

Kitanul, on 16 January 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

Saw this video a couple of day ago, seem like he can kill ppl faster than 1.5 seconds and not being a thief.

He's fighting upleveled naked people in WvW. Against geared people, it doesn't do that much damage. When he actually fights 80s, he has to use arc lightning which is a 3 1/2 second channel.

Xentin, on 16 January 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

Thats nothing new, I saw alot of videos of eles ownin in 2 secs. But they still say thief is op..

Let's compare.

2 seconds fully visible vs. 0.5 seconds while invisible

See the difference?

[TheBandicoot]

Many people seem to forget that only squishy glass cannon thieves can dish out such numbers, and that only squishy built prey will be downed within the blink of an eye. Thats not overpowered, thats just plain straight. A squishy thief can be downed as fast as they can down you, they might have the advantgae of stealth and surprise attacks, other classes have other advantages such as numerous stun breaks, invulnerability, or are armed with CC to the ceiling. Only thing which needs fixing is the culling issue, thats it.

And mug? Overpowered? I cannot see any overpowered detail on it. Its on a 45 - 30 seconds cooldown and does roughly 4k damage against - wait for it - squishy targets. Hardly overpowered if you ask me. And no, i dont only play a thief, but as well a Mesmer, an Engineer and an Elementalist.

If thieves are overpowered, the backstab-bursters to be specific, then all the other fast killing burst builds of all other classes are overpowered as well. Dont build squishy, and / or stay sharp, and you won´t be jumped to death by a thief.

I, personnally, find those bunker builds some classes have far more annoying and "overpowered" than burst builds. if you engage them as a glass cannon, they will kill you, and if you engage as a bunker the fight might as well go on into eternity.

[Sinnacle]

Caffynated, on 16 January 2013 - 08:23 PM, said:

He's fighting upleveled naked people in WvW. Against geared people, it doesn't do that much damage. When he actually fights 80s, he has to use arc lightning which is a 3 1/2 second channel.



Let's compare.

2 seconds fully visible vs. 0.5 seconds while invisible

See the difference?

I counted 8 regular 80's in that video that he killed if he gets RTL looks like they where dead anyway.  You know cause people don't run around with stun breakers in WvW which is their fault.   Most of the victims of quick kills in that video where thieves probably glassed specced about 3 warriors.  Those thieves should have popped mist form.

He used 2 skills and the fight is pretty much over regardless especially when your fighting people that don't bring stun breakers to wvw.  They probably didn't even have condi removal either necro's probably own them.

Edited by Sinnacle, 16 January 2013 - 11:10 PM.

[prince vingador]

TheBandicoot, on 16 January 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

Many people seem to forget that only squishy glass cannon thieves can dish out such numbers, and that only squishy built prey will be downed within the blink of an eye. Thats not overpowered, thats just plain straight. A squishy thief can be downed as fast as they can down you, they might have the advantgae of stealth and surprise attacks, other classes have other advantages such as numerous stun breaks, invulnerability, or are armed with CC to the ceiling. Only thing which needs fixing is the culling issue, thats it.

And mug? Overpowered? I cannot see any overpowered detail on it. Its on a 45 - 30 seconds cooldown and does roughly 4k damage against - wait for it - squishy targets. Hardly overpowered if you ask me. And no, i dont only play a thief, but as well a Mesmer, an Engineer and an Elementalist.

If thieves are overpowered, the backstab-bursters to be specific, then all the other fast killing burst builds of all other classes are overpowered as well. Dont build squishy, and / or stay sharp, and you won´t be jumped to death by a thief.

I, personnally, find those bunker builds some classes have far more annoying and "overpowered" than burst builds. if you engage them as a glass cannon, they will kill you, and if you engage as a bunker the fight might as well go on into eternity.

u are wrong, i tested with a friend of mine,me a 3000 defense necro vs glass thief and i still got like 15k damage if i didnt have 19k hp i would be insta killed in 2 seconds.this is a fact.

[mofogie]

^you think 19k is alot for a necro?  that's barely permissible, even with that amount of defense, for pvp.  here's an example of the problem: people not knowing how to survive, or /and not having fast enough reflexes, and blaming the problem on thieves.

my ranger can kill multiple glass cannon thieves at once with a combination of smart trapping, kiting, 24k hp, and max toughness.  it's a no brainer.

i will agree though, i feel mug is op as well.  It is a talent I NEVER do without as a thief.  it is just that good.  My mind is blown when in one of my build threads a fellow thief said it sucks.  

the burst is definitely great, considering it is off separate from your attacks, making any thief build have a reasonable burst.

[timidshadow]

Balance is the key to a good game.

[Sinnacle]

http://dulfy.net/201...-17-transcript/
Q: Do you find any profession to be out of balance like Ele bunker, roamer, thief one shot combo, mesmer portal?

A: Ele bunker is really strong, on our watchlist
Mesmer portal is giving us problems –giving that tool onto other classes

Even if ele bunker is on watch list doesnt mean they will touch it.

That is all Devs have spoken

Edited by Sinnacle, 17 January 2013 - 11:43 PM.

[PheBelladona]

theres a big difference between RtL and a thief opening, RtL has travel time and is very flashy (very easy to dodge) thief is instant. thieves are not balanced, mug and backstab are just ridiculous.

Edited by PheBelladona, 29 January 2013 - 09:26 AM.

[crowsnest bomber]

Caffynated, on 16 January 2013 - 08:23 PM, said:

He's fighting upleveled naked people in WvW. Against geared people, it doesn't do that much damage. When he actually fights 80s, he has to use arc lightning which is a 3 1/2 second channel.



Let's compare.

2 seconds fully visible vs. 0.5 seconds while invisible

See the difference?

Come on, 2 secs fully visible? Did u not see him in stealth  zooming around half the map and smacking dudes down in a second.. You gotta really let go of this one.. There's a reason why the thief bs build hasn't really been nerfed in the latest 2 patches

[MrForz]

I really don't get why people consider Thieves to be overpowered just by looking at their burst combo.

You want one? Use a Static Discharge based Glass Cannon Rifle Engineer, you can manage to remove 20k health from people and part of it is purely ranged, add a couple of thousands more if you manage to place that Overcharged Shot so well that you can chain with Jump Shot. And the cooldowns are terribly low.

Lightning Elementalist can also literally alpha people.

Only things the Thief has over everyone else are the extreme mobility under the form of shadow step + infiltrator shot, and stealth, which isn't punishable unless he doesn't move once stealthed. I'm all in for some tweaks such as being revealed from stealth when taking damage but that's all really. Dagger burst combo is close to a one trick pony no matter how well you fight, you get a strong advantage if you see it coming, even more if you have any blocking ability.

Edited by MrForz, 29 January 2013 - 12:33 PM.

[realmisr]

Bads will be bads, that's all I'm going to say.

90% of the thieves you see in spvp have no clue what they're doing and are just playing thieves to try it...guess what? Most of them give up because they think thieves are OP but find out quickly that they can die just as quickly as they can kill if not played properly.

The thing that keeps me from playing gw2 is that the better player will always win regardless of class. Being able to know when to use skills, evade, and game mechanics in general is so important.

The thieves that do 15k to you, are also the easiest to kill, so if you're dying to these glassy thieves 1v1, it's only your fault. Most of these new thieves don't even carry a stunbreaker or know how to use shadowstep...all it takes is 1 immobil and they are dead.

The only class I'd remotely consider OP right now are d/d eles. They are pretty much every class combined...they can be spec'd tanky AND burst you down  as fast as a glassy thief (with AOE)...they have all sorts of ccs (shocking aura, frost armor, earthquake, updraft, mist form with regen), easy condition removal, they can run better than thieves if things don't go well, andddd they can regenerate to almost full hp with just weapon skills via aura of restoration + ice skills. The fire burst c/d is roughly 15 secs and shorter...well you get the point. Mist form + vapor form both heals them up real good making it easy for teammates to res extremely fast.

There are plenty of counters to glassy BS thieves...not much of any true counters to d/d eles because they are just able to adapt to any situation because of their skill sets. You can wear them down with a ranged class and proper timing but it never ever kills them unless they're stupid enough to stay for you to kill them. And yes, I've fought plenty of d/d eles and played and play a ele alt myself, so I'm not speaking out of my ass.

Edited by realmisr, 29 January 2013 - 02:10 PM.

[PheBelladona]

realmisr, on 29 January 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

90% of the thieves you see in spvp have no clue what they're doing and are just playing thieves to try it...guess what? Most of them give up because they think thieves are OP but find out quickly that they can die just as quickly as they can kill if not played properly.

i dont know which line of arguement to go down, lets deal with your idea that 90% of all thieves are new and bad - why do they get so many complaints then unless its from all the other new and bad people... but then surely these new and bad thieves have an advantage over the other new and bad players making them OP at the bad end of the market.

then we get to the middle ground these people are experienced in the class they are playing and still complain so either they keep bumping into the 10% of good thieves or they're actually bad but surely with the experience logged they'd still roll and new and bad thief every time... aparently not, do you know why? because all it takes is for the thief to approach from the back or during another fight and push 2-3 buttons and you will die. this makes them OP no other class can join a fight and gib you in 1 auto and an instant cast.

the reason they havent been nerf'd is prolly for the same reason gw1 assassins werent nerf'd for AGES, kids like pushing 1-6 in order with no timing required and killing someone... just in this game it takes fewer buttons.