crowsnest bomber, on 21 December 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:
So how many of you in this stupid thread actually main thief and know there class well enough to have a constructive conversation about it?
So if the thief class is broken and suffers from oh penis (thanks mofogie) then are u claiming that u know more than the anet devs? Do u honestly think cos u got owned a couple times that that. definitely means the class is imbalanced..
As someone who appears to know what he's talking about.. Archer I'm talking to u, what are your thoughts on the thief op subject?
I'd love to hear from players above r30 there thoughts on this post
I'm a R40 thief on a known team. I'd be on the QP list for NA, but I've been busy with work and finals for the month, so our team is out of practice.
Thieves have a VERY specific niche in tpvp right now. They're mobile and they can put out signifcant sustained damage in fights. Some thieves are running caltrops evasion sustain builds mixed with burst in order to * with target callers that go on thieves first. Others are speccing specifically to deal with the glassy necro meta for bombing points.
That said, I've been thinking about switching my main. The change to utility swapping in matches is devastating to many thief specs, who would regularly use 8-9 different utilities per match. The nerf is so damaging to thief mobility or in-fight utility that I'm starting to think that they're outclassed by glassy d/d elementalists in most respects. The change was also a MASSIVE buff for warriors, and the top NA burst cleanup player is currently running a warrior. 100b never hits? Wait till you're 1 shotted by whirlwind, then are impossible to res because of its damage to you and anyone who tries to help.
Thieves have certain niche utility that other classes don't really have; they have very safe lord stealing on map 2, shadow refuge is the ONLY reliable method of dealing with mist and distortion stomps, infiltrator's strike gives them unparalleled mobility near the treb and clocktower. That said, the rise of necros, trap rangers, offensive guardians coupled with the signficant nerfs to thief burst and utility swapping puts them in a very bad position meta-wise. Its very common to see paid teams skipping warrior/thief and just relying on ranger/necro pressure + mesmer burst in order to clear people off points couples with 1 offensive and 1 defensive guardian. Binding blade is the single strongest setup skill in the game, and unlike warrior and thief damage, the prepared condition stacking forces players to burn a stunbreak and then condition removal if they have it. Utility changes have ALSO given necro/ranger area control strats a huge buff by forcing people into speccing for condition removal utilities, which are generally not helpful to roaming classes when they're attempting to clear an offensive guardian or pressure the defensive one.
Mesmer backpoint + portal setups are really common, which means most of them spec enough defensive content to deal with burst thieves. Even the evade/caltrops point decapping setup can't kill a hybrid burst/sustain mesmer without thieves guild and its easily dealt with by counting the tg timer and sending a roamer back preemptively to clear him out when its about to pop. The european specs, with sustain engineers loaded with immobilize are even more crushing against offensive thief roamers.
The result is that thieves have been put into a position wherein they're forced to capitalize on burst to capture bosses/pressure lord, or they're forced to rotate quickly and sustain pressure on mid fights. Attempting to roam and catch people off guard doesn't work. Clusterbombs aren't even that strong. Trickshot is doing a huge proportion of thief's work at the moment, putting out 3-5k damage against glassier specs and a respectable 2.4k against bunkers. choking gas is the single best poison applicator in the game, and it comes with the bonus of aoe weakness, which neuters a lot of hybrid builds. Its also one of the strongest tools to keep certain condi-removal poor glasses in combat even if you die, allowing for easy followups to a wipe.
If we exclude the fact that shortbow is currently carrying the * out of the thief class, it becomes apparent how one dimensional the class has become. With the nerf to dancing dagger, thieves have to be in melee range to do any significant damage, but to do any significant damage, they have to spec such that they can't survive in melee range. Shortbow 3 and D/D 3 are the exceptions, which is why initiative hungry caltrops + evasion builds have sprung up. There's one build that's somewhat an exception, and that's cruuk's. the s/p + d/d its rather weak and relies on haste pistol whips into blinding powder, then heartseeker. As with all of the other thief builds, if he misses his main combination, he is forced to disengage, but sword 2 provides him with some condition bulk, and smoke field provides him with sustainable options for stealthing which means he's got better prospects against offensive guardians and mesmers than the standard roamer build.
Oddly enough, nearly immediately after the utilities change, the top team on NA quit the game. If you look at the leaderboards, there are a number of other players who were at the top during the 1QP/Win phase who are still there who haven't played in weeks.
TL;DR: Trickshot is carrying the * out of thieves right now, and the utilities change might have made the class unviable in comp tpvp.
Falfyrel, on 21 December 2012 - 01:43 AM, said:
Haha. You keep calling him "horrendous" and yet when I link a player that's actually that bad as you imply, you throw away my argument and start making stuff up like saying that the guardian whiffed "every single skill" while continuing to insist that's evidence for why he's awful.
Well, that's a fantastic argument.
It's a good thing that the devs actually listen to good community feedback in regards to PvP, as evidenced in multiple balance patches in the past. If you don't like it, feel free to take it up with ArenaNet.
I call him horrendous because he is, and for his first two rotations, he DID whiff every skill. Again, the dude had the camera pointed away from the thief and just spazz hit 5.
The devs have been HEMMORAGING pvp players. No idea how catering to horrendous players and removing the reward of skills based progression does anything for the future of this game as an esport, but feel free to tell me that wvwvw and hotjoin is going to sustain the competitive community.
Edited by ArcherHenchman, 21 December 2012 - 05:00 PM.