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Yo, how are thieves not crazy OP?


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#61 Wanna Go To heaven

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:16 PM

View Postcrowsnest bomber, on 19 December 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

Ok well if a thief does hs spam ya,  make sure u kill them and tell them to ltp as it gives us other thieves a bad name.
I actually. just ran into a thief using haste and hs spam and felt  embarrassed for him.

Most of us aren't like that though

I know, most are worse (in terms of "annoyment" not gameplay).
The quote at the end of the video says it all, even though I don't like the fact wvw has been used to show the outcome of this...duel.
Wvw has food bonuses which can give some crazy stat boosts. But doesn't change much in spvp. And that's against a bunker build.
Any non bunker would've died first burst attempt


Here's what a r49 did.
Steal stealth, immobilize sb, then hs spam (=15-17k dmg)
dumb class is dumb

Edited by Wanna Go To heaven, 20 December 2012 - 01:01 AM.


#62 crowsnest bomber

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 01:39 AM

View PostFalfyrel, on 19 December 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

Relevant video.



Yeah yeah, perfect play could have countered the Thief burst. But if you're required to play at your A-game continuously, and take any and all actions necessary just to avoid being killed, there's still a problem. Especially when, you know, this is not usually required for any other profession in the game, except when facing Thieves.

I would highly advise not throwing around "you screwed up" as a valid point when sometimes not screwing up would require you to have 0.1s reaction times, flawless situational awareness, and inhumanly quick deduction abilities in regards to which skills to use when.

When Thief burst is this powerful, has only mild risk tacked onto it for the Thief in question, and is incredibly easy to execute, I don't care if it's "technically" counterable. One class doing so much damage in so little time is simply bad for the game.
as  fustrating as that would have been you need to put it into context. A thief like that would suck in group situations and die very quickly while that same guardian would do quite well in group fights. also, in spvp for example, have you actually targeted one of these thieves? u can kill them in about 3 seconds and it is, as the video puts it, a free kill.. these thieves spend more time in spvp looking at there death screen  then actually playing

Edited by crowsnest bomber, 20 December 2012 - 02:26 AM.


#63 ArcherHenchman

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 03:00 AM

View PostFalfyrel, on 19 December 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

Relevant video.



Yeah yeah, perfect play could have countered the Thief burst. But if you're required to play at your A-game continuously, and take any and all actions necessary just to avoid being killed, there's still a problem. Especially when, you know, this is not usually required for any other profession in the game, except when facing Thieves.

I would highly advise not throwing around "you screwed up" as a valid point when sometimes not screwing up would require you to have 0.1s reaction times, flawless situational awareness, and inhumanly quick deduction abilities in regards to which skills to use when.

When Thief burst is this powerful, has only mild risk tacked onto it for the Thief in question, and is incredibly easy to execute, I don't care if it's "technically" counterable. One class doing so much damage in so little time is simply bad for the game.

Perfect play? The guardian walked away from the thief and missed literally every single offensive skill he had on his toolbar for two cycles. Then couldn't catch up after HE disengaged from the thief, despite not using judges or sword teleport into immobilize. He also threw out a binding blade with his back turned and the thief off his screen.

This isn't a case of mediocre play, the guardian is doing everything in his power incorrectly and the thief is still forced to reset the fight.

Twice.

And that's a case of the THIEF being op? What. The. *.

You're complaining that a GUARDIAN had trouble with a thief, when nearly every competitive guardian build stomps thieves 1v1 to the point that thieves don't bother roaming to guardian held points at all in tpvp. Properly specced, guardians can negate a thief's burst with no less than 6 different skills which they can have available AT THE SAME TIME. When the guardian dies, he has multiple stunbreakers up, multiple virtues that would have saved him, and a number of weapon skills that would have given him breathing room as well.

Seriously, if you're given a matchup that should go 10-0 if played properly, then complain that you throw it, ergo the class on the 0 side of the equation is op... I have no idea what to tell you.

Edited by ArcherHenchman, 20 December 2012 - 03:03 AM.


#64 The Shadow

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 05:32 AM

Thief is OP because people can't play.



#65 Falfyrel

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 05:35 AM

View PostArcherHenchman, on 20 December 2012 - 03:00 AM, said:

Perfect play? The guardian walked away from the thief and missed literally every single offensive skill he had on his toolbar for two cycles. Then couldn't catch up after HE disengaged from the thief, despite not using judges or sword teleport into immobilize. He also threw out a binding blade with his back turned and the thief off his screen.

This isn't a case of mediocre play, the guardian is doing everything in his power incorrectly and the thief is still forced to reset the fight.

Twice.

And that's a case of the THIEF being op? What. The. *.

You're complaining that a GUARDIAN had trouble with a thief, when nearly every competitive guardian build stomps thieves 1v1 to the point that thieves don't bother roaming to guardian held points at all in tpvp. Properly specced, guardians can negate a thief's burst with no less than 6 different skills which they can have available AT THE SAME TIME. When the guardian dies, he has multiple stunbreakers up, multiple virtues that would have saved him, and a number of weapon skills that would have given him breathing room as well.

Seriously, if you're given a matchup that should go 10-0 if played properly, then complain that you throw it, ergo the class on the 0 side of the equation is op... I have no idea what to tell you.

Yes, Great and Mighty Henchman, clearly he had six stunbreaks to use at once! Clearly he was ignoring all of his offensive skills (despite using them when he wasn't 1500 feet away). And clearly he wasn't using the stunbreaks he did have in an attempt to catch up to the Thief. And if he hadn't whiffed that Binding Blade - what then? Oh, right, the Thief still would have escaped, because as glass as his build was, it doesn't exactly take a genius to use Infiltrator's Arrow five times in a row. And I'm pretty sure that he did use his offensive skills - unless you mean to tell me that a bunker Guardian is supposed to use a SYMBOL to attack the most mobile class in the game.

Walking towards the most burst-heavy class in the game when they're stealthed and have their burst primed! Excellent idea! I'll get right on that. Oh wait, no I won't because I'm not an idiot.

Oh, and may I remind you? This isn't tPvP. Stats are different in WvW and offense is a lot more potent so a bunker build that'd normally work in tPvP will fail miserably in WvW.

Come back when you have a clue what you're talking about.

#66 Condiments7

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:35 AM

View PostFalfyrel, on 20 December 2012 - 05:35 AM, said:

Oh, and may I remind you? This isn't tPvP. Stats are different in WvW and offense is a lot more potent so a bunker build that'd normally work in tPvP will fail miserably in WvW.

Come back when you have a clue what you're talking about.

No one really cares about any WvW videos of thieves owning people. WvW has to deal with the balance implications of sharing itemization(more stat variance) and consumables with the PvE side of the game. A thief thrives even further in this mode due to mobility  options across wide open spaces, and inherent engine issues(culling). The thief wasn't even engaging the guardian in direct battle because he would have been crushed, and the guard played right into his hands when there a was very obvious burst coming(thief casting=uh oh). Next time you get in an engagement with a thief, send your mobile burst after them. I agree it is unfair, but its rather absurd to think you're going to balance a game around roaming 1v1 encounters in high player count mode focused on large battles against points of interest.

The 'balance' is around tPvP because its centered around smaller engagements in high pressure environments. There no 'zergs' against good teams, and coordinated burst will flatten thieves in a mere second.

#67 ArcherHenchman

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:52 AM

View PostFalfyrel, on 20 December 2012 - 05:35 AM, said:

Yes, Great and Mighty Henchman, clearly he had six stunbreaks to use at once! Clearly he was ignoring all of his offensive skills (despite using them when he wasn't 1500 feet away). And clearly he wasn't using the stunbreaks he did have in an attempt to catch up to the Thief. And if he hadn't whiffed that Binding Blade - what then? Oh, right, the Thief still would have escaped, because as glass as his build was, it doesn't exactly take a genius to use Infiltrator's Arrow five times in a row. And I'm pretty sure that he did use his offensive skills - unless you mean to tell me that a bunker Guardian is supposed to use a SYMBOL to attack the most mobile class in the game.

Walking towards the most burst-heavy class in the game when they're stealthed and have their burst primed! Excellent idea! I'll get right on that. Oh wait, no I won't because I'm not an idiot.

Oh, and may I remind you? This isn't tPvP. Stats are different in WvW and offense is a lot more potent so a bunker build that'd normally work in tPvP will fail miserably in WvW.

Come back when you have a clue what you're talking about.
6 stunbreaks? You can use renewed focus, ult, block from heal, any of the stunbreak utilities, traited fire virtue, aegis virtue. Most guardians run 2 skills that stunbreak, and the guardian in the movie had those.

As for whether or not the thief's going to be able to use '5 infiltrator's strikes in a row', that's where binding blade becomes valuable. The skill remains on you even if you swap out to shortbow. If you watched the video, you'll notice that the thief buffered a clusterbomb into a trick shot, then swapped weapon sets and c&d/steal/backstabbed. His weapon swap is on cd for 10 seconds, yet instead of burning the thief down during this period, the guardian walked away.

He used most of his offensive skills but neglected hitting with any of them. He missed bb, didn't pull into his symbol, didn't whirl after bb, then swap to immobilize and chase.

The guardian literally whiffed every skill and forced a reset. You might not be understanding this, but between retaliation and burn on block, the guardian didn't even need to hit the thief to chunk his hp. Starting to understand why the thief had to run twice despite playing a horrendous player?

#68 Wanna Go To heaven

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 09:07 AM

So today I was in a bg.
There's this r30+ thief.
I'm on my bunker ele, I own him hard every time. Get him to 25% easy.
He just runs away 24/7
Then I get killed by a zerg, and he feels strong.
HOW COME A CLASS HAS SO MANY ESCAPE MECHANISMS AND CAN STILL KILL SO FAST?
Sorry but in my book, this class is beyond broken. Refer to the quote at the end of the clip posted above

#69 Mitch

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 09:17 AM

View PostWanna Go To heaven, on 20 December 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

So today I was in a bg.
There's this r30+ thief.
I'm on my bunker ele, I own him hard every time. Get him to 25% easy.
He just runs away 24/7
Then I get killed by a zerg, and he feels strong.
HOW COME A CLASS HAS SO MANY ESCAPE MECHANISMS AND CAN STILL KILL SO FAST?
Sorry but in my book, this class is beyond broken. Refer to the quote at the end of the clip posted above

Tip: Don't talk about hotjoin PvP in balance discussions.

#70 Falfyrel

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 09:22 AM

View PostArcherHenchman, on 20 December 2012 - 06:52 AM, said:

6 stunbreaks? You can use renewed focus, ult, block from heal, any of the stunbreak utilities, traited fire virtue, aegis virtue. Most guardians run 2 skills that stunbreak, and the guardian in the movie had those.

As for whether or not the thief's going to be able to use '5 infiltrator's strikes in a row', that's where binding blade becomes valuable. The skill remains on you even if you swap out to shortbow. If you watched the video, you'll notice that the thief buffered a clusterbomb into a trick shot, then swapped weapon sets and c&d/steal/backstabbed. His weapon swap is on cd for 10 seconds, yet instead of burning the thief down during this period, the guardian walked away.

He used most of his offensive skills but neglected hitting with any of them. He missed bb, didn't pull into his symbol, didn't whirl after bb, then swap to immobilize and chase.

The guardian literally whiffed every skill and forced a reset. You might not be understanding this, but between retaliation and burn on block, the guardian didn't even need to hit the thief to chunk his hp. Starting to understand why the thief had to run twice despite playing a horrendous player?

So your standards of what makes a "horrendous player," if I'm hearing this properly, are: that the player doesn't have perfect situational awareness and encyclopedic knowledge of initiative costs and animations; that the player's attacks don't always hit due to dodges/range issues/stealth/etc., and during the period where he was bursted down, couldn't react quickly enough in the 2 seconds to down it took to activate the Aegis virtue (which was about the only tool he had)?

I'd hate to see your thoughts on the standard Quickened Pistol Whip-spamming numbnut if that's what you call the bottom of the barrel.

#71 crowsnest bomber

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 09:52 AM


Lol I just hope I don't run into archer henchman 1v1

Edited by crowsnest bomber, 20 December 2012 - 09:56 AM.


#72 Wanna Go To heaven

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:01 AM

Seriously anyone defending this class is just playing it non stop.
Getting globaled should NEVER happen, no where. Ever.

View PostMitch, on 20 December 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

Tip: Don't talk about hotjoin PvP in balance discussions.
Tip: don't try to defend a class that is obviously broken

#73 Mitch

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:15 AM

View PostWanna Go To heaven, on 20 December 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

Seriously anyone defending this class is just playing it non stop.
Getting globaled should NEVER happen, no where. Ever.


Tip: don't try to defend a class that is obviously broken

I don't even play thief, I've played it maybe 3 times total and yes in hotjoin if you're halfdecent it's very good at stomping noobs.

In tournament play thieves are far less problematic however as killing them is optional, holding/capping points is what makes you win primarily and if you force a thief to run he's not contributing to this goal. Thieves actually aren't able to 1v1 almost any other profession in an even fight (1v1 with all cooldowns available and full health) their main goal is to assist other people and quickly down people by creating 2v1/3v2 situations through their high mobility.

My only grievance with thieves is the lack of a counter to stealth.

Edited by Mitch, 20 December 2012 - 10:16 AM.


#74 mofogie

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:42 AM

it's kinda hard to compare "OP"ness (i always loved how it sounded like oh-penis), because WvW and SPvP are WAY different.  

if you want to compare OP powers of classes...  mesmers portal bombing, mass invising, mass pull and flinging people off cliffs.... their abilites can overtake a tower or keep in a single stroke.  Their damage is also highly respectable, as well as their 1v1ing.

or Eles in WvW, down them, they mist form back to their buddies.  and again, and again and again.  I dont even bother killing eles in a group situation in WvW unless i have no choice.  Theyr'e also the best classes at taking out siege in a tower.  Isnt' that already an OP thing about them?

or how  bout necros in WVW.  Dot Dot goose.  Suddenly 8 guys on the other team are near dead with no skill required.  Even if it doesnt' down them, they have to retreat to get out of combat to heal.  50k+ worth of hp with life force easily.  

or even rangers!  my friend does a pet build that does respectable damage, like a 7k hit on the first strike. and the pet has a max range of 8500, well outside of out of combat range.  The pet is hard as nails, but if it goes down, it begins regening immediately.  You can't stop her, she sends it out like a cruise missle, her avatar always a mile out of reach.

the thief's specialty is assassination, and infiltration.  It feels awesome soloing, but i would not disregard the powerful aspects of other classes which can be more tide turning.

Edited by mofogie, 20 December 2012 - 10:49 AM.


#75 Invoky

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 11:52 AM

How come most people complain about thf are mostly from WvW, but not from Spvp? I mean other than zerg/seige position, wvw actually takes skill?


View PostWanna Go To heaven, on 20 December 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

So today I was in a bg.
There's this r30+ thief.
I'm on my bunker ele, I own him hard every time. Get him to 25% easy.
He just runs away 24/7
Then I get killed by a zerg, and he feels strong.
HOW COME A CLASS HAS SO MANY ESCAPE MECHANISMS AND CAN STILL KILL SO FAST?
Sorry but in my book, this class is beyond broken. Refer to the quote at the end of the clip posted above

See the bold part.

Edited by Invoky, 20 December 2012 - 11:58 AM.


#76 prince vingador

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 12:04 PM

View PostInvoky, on 20 December 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

How come most people complain about thf are from WvW, but not from Spvp?
the reason is 1vs 1 if u get jumped by a thief u will lose the fight,in spvp there is less players so u can see better and i tell u also that the team with more thieves in it will lose 80% of the time,thieves are almost useless i teams but in www they roam alone like lone wolves glass canon and kill other players in 2 seconds.thats why www players complain more than spvp players maybe.

#77 mofogie

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 12:40 PM

people complain bout thieves most in wvw because in WvW, it's much harder to get a kill for every class. People just fall back to their zerg and get ressed, (AHEM ELES...)  the only class that can repeatededly effectively kill someone is thief with high burst builds.  But like i pointed out earlier, that's the specialty of the class. Other classes have very useful WvW tricks too

#78 ArcherHenchman

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 01:35 PM

View PostFalfyrel, on 20 December 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

So your standards of what makes a "horrendous player," if I'm hearing this properly, are: that the player doesn't have perfect situational awareness and encyclopedic knowledge of initiative costs and animations; that the player's attacks don't always hit due to dodges/range issues/stealth/etc., and during the period where he was bursted down, couldn't react quickly enough in the 2 seconds to down it took to activate the Aegis virtue (which was about the only tool he had)?

I'd hate to see your thoughts on the standard Quickened Pistol Whip-spamming numbnut if that's what you call the bottom of the barrel.
If a player doesn't know what he's up against, has no idea how to leverage his strengths against the class he's fighting, performs the exact opposite of what he's supposed to and throws out skills randomly, yeah, he's pretty bad. You can also esc out and animation cancel most of your big-ticket skills to force dodge burns. That's kinda guardian 101 if you bother learning the class.

I'm kinda wondering what you consider to be good play if you're offended that doing everything wrong is the hallmark of being bad.

During the period he was bursted down, he had multiple outs. The thief had telegraphed his burst as well.

Again, you're complaining that a matchup that a guardian wins 100% of the time if he's good. With lots of breathing room, too. In a game mode that classes aren't balanced around. With pre-sigil stacks and 2 consumables on a player who solidly outplayed the other.

The fact that you're whining about this is unreal.

#79 Falfyrel

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:08 PM

View PostArcherHenchman, on 20 December 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

If a player doesn't know what he's up against, has no idea how to leverage his strengths against the class he's fighting, performs the exact opposite of what he's supposed to and throws out skills randomly, yeah, he's pretty bad. You can also esc out and animation cancel most of your big-ticket skills to force dodge burns. That's kinda guardian 101 if you bother learning the class.

I'm kinda wondering what you consider to be good play if you're offended that doing everything wrong is the hallmark of being bad.

During the period he was bursted down, he had multiple outs. The thief had telegraphed his burst as well.

Again, you're complaining that a matchup that a guardian wins 100% of the time if he's good. With lots of breathing room, too. In a game mode that classes aren't balanced around. With pre-sigil stacks and 2 consumables on a player who solidly outplayed the other.

The fact that you're whining about this is unreal.

You wanna see terrible PvP? Here, this may help you realize the discrepancy between decent players and horrendous ones.

https://www.youtube....h?v=c2JnIqOI330

But it's a good thing you're here to remind us that only tPvP matters and us WvWvW plebians are just poor mistaken idiots who don't realize that average-level play is "doing everything wrong." ^_^ I just want to say that I'd hate to be around you if you ever got put into an sPvP group with someone who was only an above-average player.

Troll harder.

#80 ArcherHenchman

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 01:12 AM

View PostFalfyrel, on 20 December 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

You wanna see terrible PvP? Here, this may help you realize the discrepancy between decent players and horrendous ones.

https://www.youtube....h?v=c2JnIqOI330

But it's a good thing you're here to remind us that only tPvP matters and us WvWvW plebians are just poor mistaken idiots who don't realize that average-level play is "doing everything wrong." ^_^ I just want to say that I'd hate to be around you if you ever got put into an sPvP group with someone who was only an above-average player.

Troll harder.
There are even worse players in existence, ergo the terrible guardian who missed every single skill of his and threw out skills with his camera turned away from the thief is good and we should balance around him. Also, I'm a terrible person.

Well, that's a fantastic argument.

And yes, devs have stated that they're going to be balancing with tpvp in mind, not hotjoin or wvwvw. If you don't like it, feel free to take it up with peters and sharp.

#81 Falfyrel

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 01:43 AM

View PostArcherHenchman, on 21 December 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

There are even worse players in existence, ergo the terrible guardian who missed every single skill of his and threw out skills with his camera turned away from the thief is good and we should balance around him. Also, I'm a terrible person.

Well, that's a fantastic argument.

And yes, devs have stated that they're going to be balancing with tpvp in mind, not hotjoin or wvwvw. If you don't like it, feel free to take it up with peters and sharp.

Haha. You keep calling him "horrendous" and yet when I link a player that's actually that bad as you imply, you throw away my argument and start making stuff up like saying that the guardian whiffed "every single skill" while continuing to insist that's evidence for why he's awful.

Well, that's a fantastic argument.

It's a good thing that the devs actually listen to good community feedback in regards to PvP, as evidenced in multiple balance patches in the past. If you don't like it, feel free to take it up with ArenaNet.

#82 Budzasty

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 02:53 AM

tPvP doesn't magically make thief balanced as a class. It makes it balanced because of different goal - defend the point, which thief is terrible at. In simple PvP scenario thief retreats = draw. In tPvP = win. tPvP or not, thief kills as easily and has same retreat options. So stop spreading misinformation that thief is balanced as PvP class in tPvP.

Thief has great offence, great defense and best mobility, no other class can have all three of those. Best solo class capable of winning fights with least risk taken as you can easily just reset fight. Best advice for WvW - not to run solo and not to chase him.

#83 crowsnest bomber

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 12:19 PM

So how many of you in this stupid thread actually main thief and know there class well enough to have a constructive conversation about it?

So if the thief class is broken and suffers from oh penis (thanks mofogie)  then are u claiming that u know more than the anet devs? Do u honestly think cos u got owned a couple times that that. definitely means the class is imbalanced..

As someone who appears to know what he's talking about.. Archer I'm talking to u,  what are your thoughts on the thief op subject?
I'd love to hear from players above r30 there thoughts on this post

#84 ArcherHenchman

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 04:49 PM

View Postcrowsnest bomber, on 21 December 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

So how many of you in this stupid thread actually main thief and know there class well enough to have a constructive conversation about it?

So if the thief class is broken and suffers from oh penis (thanks mofogie)  then are u claiming that u know more than the anet devs? Do u honestly think cos u got owned a couple times that that. definitely means the class is imbalanced..

As someone who appears to know what he's talking about.. Archer I'm talking to u,  what are your thoughts on the thief op subject?
I'd love to hear from players above r30 there thoughts on this post
I'm a R40 thief on a known team. I'd be on the QP list for NA, but I've been busy with work and finals for the month, so our team is out of practice.

Thieves have a VERY specific niche in tpvp right now. They're mobile and they can put out signifcant sustained damage in fights. Some thieves are running caltrops evasion sustain builds mixed with burst in order to * with target callers that go on thieves first. Others are speccing specifically to deal with the glassy necro meta for bombing points.

That said, I've been thinking about switching my main. The change to utility swapping in matches is devastating to many thief specs, who would regularly use 8-9 different utilities per match. The nerf is so damaging to thief mobility or in-fight utility that I'm starting to think that they're outclassed by glassy d/d elementalists in most respects. The change was also a MASSIVE buff for warriors, and the top NA burst cleanup player is currently running a warrior. 100b never hits? Wait till you're 1 shotted by whirlwind, then are impossible to res because of its damage to you and anyone who tries to help.

Thieves have certain niche utility that other classes don't really have; they have very safe lord stealing on map 2, shadow refuge is the ONLY reliable method of dealing with mist and distortion stomps, infiltrator's strike gives them unparalleled mobility near the treb and clocktower. That said, the rise of necros, trap rangers, offensive guardians coupled with the signficant nerfs to thief burst and utility swapping puts them in a very bad position meta-wise. Its very common to see paid teams skipping warrior/thief and just relying on ranger/necro pressure + mesmer burst in order to clear people off points couples with 1 offensive and 1 defensive guardian. Binding blade is the single strongest setup skill in the game, and unlike warrior and thief damage, the prepared condition stacking forces players to burn a stunbreak and then condition removal if they have it. Utility changes have ALSO given necro/ranger area control strats a huge buff by forcing people into speccing for condition removal utilities, which are generally not helpful to roaming classes when they're attempting to clear an offensive guardian or pressure the defensive one.

Mesmer backpoint + portal setups are really common, which means most of them spec enough defensive content to deal with burst thieves. Even the evade/caltrops point decapping setup can't kill a hybrid burst/sustain mesmer without thieves guild and its easily dealt with by counting the tg timer and sending a roamer back preemptively to clear him out when its about to pop. The european specs, with sustain engineers loaded with immobilize are even more crushing against offensive thief roamers.

The result is that thieves have been put into a position wherein they're forced to capitalize on burst to capture bosses/pressure lord, or they're forced to rotate quickly and sustain pressure on mid fights. Attempting to roam and catch people off guard doesn't work. Clusterbombs aren't even that strong. Trickshot is doing a huge proportion of thief's work at the moment, putting out 3-5k damage against glassier specs and a respectable 2.4k against bunkers. choking gas is the single best poison applicator in the game, and it comes with the bonus of aoe weakness, which neuters a lot of hybrid builds. Its also one of the strongest tools to keep certain condi-removal poor glasses in combat even if you die, allowing for easy followups to a wipe.

If we exclude the fact that shortbow is currently carrying the * out of the thief class, it becomes apparent how one dimensional the class has become. With the nerf to dancing dagger, thieves have to be in melee range to do any significant damage, but to do any significant damage, they have to spec such that they can't survive in melee range. Shortbow 3 and D/D 3 are the exceptions, which is why initiative hungry caltrops + evasion builds have sprung up. There's one build that's somewhat an exception, and that's cruuk's. the s/p + d/d  its rather weak and relies on haste pistol whips into blinding powder, then heartseeker. As with all of the other thief builds, if he misses his main combination, he is forced to disengage, but sword 2 provides him with some condition bulk, and smoke field provides him with sustainable options for stealthing which means he's got better prospects against offensive guardians and mesmers than the standard roamer build.

Oddly enough, nearly immediately after the utilities change, the top team on NA quit the game. If you look at the leaderboards, there are a number of other players who were at the top during the 1QP/Win phase who are still there who haven't played in weeks.

TL;DR: Trickshot is carrying the * out of thieves right now, and the utilities change might have made the class unviable in comp tpvp.

View PostFalfyrel, on 21 December 2012 - 01:43 AM, said:

Haha. You keep calling him "horrendous" and yet when I link a player that's actually that bad as you imply, you throw away my argument and start making stuff up like saying that the guardian whiffed "every single skill" while continuing to insist that's evidence for why he's awful.

Well, that's a fantastic argument.

It's a good thing that the devs actually listen to good community feedback in regards to PvP, as evidenced in multiple balance patches in the past. If you don't like it, feel free to take it up with ArenaNet.
I call him horrendous because he is, and for his first two rotations, he DID whiff every skill. Again, the dude had the camera pointed away from the thief and just spazz hit 5.

The devs have been HEMMORAGING pvp players. No idea how catering to horrendous players and removing the reward of skills based progression does anything for the future of this game as an esport, but feel free to tell me that wvwvw and hotjoin is going to sustain the competitive community.

Edited by ArcherHenchman, 21 December 2012 - 05:00 PM.


#85 jthamind

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 05:06 PM

what about venom share thieves? how do they do in tPvP?

#86 Falfyrel

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:53 PM

So if Thieves have serious issues in tPvP due to their reliance on burst and cause serious issues in WvW due to their burst, what's the problem with nerfing their burst and buffing them in other important ways (like team support, versatility, and being able to contest points when stealthed), so they can still deal a respectable amount of sustained damage while having more ways to be a team player?

I'm still not convinced that the Guardian was "horrible" despite your insistence that he "is" and that he tried to aim at a target he couldn't see, but either way, from your testimony this seems like it'd be a win-win. Give Thieves something outside of a niche role in tPvP with additional support and control capabilities, and make WvW players happy by removing the ridiculous backstab combos. That way, Thieves take more skill to play properly and their burst can be more easily tanked, but they're more of an asset to the party whether people are used to fighting them or not.

In this scenario there's nothing forcing the devs to listen to one side over the other, but from your own testimony it seems like Thieves definitely need a retweaking in quite a few aspects, even if not a flat-out nerf.

#87 crowsnest bomber

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 02:00 AM

Thanks archer.. Appreciate your in depth post.. It's great to hear from ppl who know what there talking about... With the new swapping restrictions it basically forces u to use a specific build.. What build will u generally be using now u can't change anything in game?

#88 dynia666

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 02:10 AM

View Postinvivo, on 11 December 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

How can a class do 19,000 damage in a second and not be OP?  (Don't worry, this is not a QQ or trollbait thread, I'm asking in good faith and hope for reasonable discussion.)

The setup: I was WvWing with my mesmer, saw a guy running toward me, and stood my ground.  As soon as he got to me, I hit torch #4 to stealth, and then less than 2 seconds later (probably closer to 1 second) I was downed.

Curious as to how this character managed to get through all of my hit points (it's a big number, for a mesmer), I checked the combat history.  I got hit with Steal for 4k, and the only other thing I saw was pistol whips for ~1.5k each.  Lots of them.

Now, I'm never quick to scream "imba!" when things don't go my way.  I'm not that great at this game, and I don't play PvP often enough to learn all the things that other classes can do.  So if your only response is, "L2P, noob!", then my reply is, "duh!"  After all, I'm not hearing a million other people shouting about how imba the thief is, so clearly good players have managed to counter this build.

But I'm at a loss regarding how to avoid dying against such a massive spike of damage.  Sure, if I can dodge the first strike or two, I might be fine, but I don't think that survival should rely on a single critical dodge like that.  And I think I may have become immobilized at some point during the fight, because I tried to dodge after the first couple hits (although I may have just died faster than the keystrokes could register).

I'm not upset about losing the fight.  A more skilled player should be able to beat me, and this particular thief no doubt deserved his victory.  I just want to know why the fight was over before it had even properly begun.

Cheers!

I play pvp alot and didn't noticed thiefs are op, I kill them like fly in 2-3 hits and they just can't kill me never ever -.- so yeah learn to play ;p



here is your op thief with invis

Edited by dynia666, 22 December 2012 - 02:13 AM.


#89 ArcherHenchman

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 02:38 AM

View Postjthamind, on 21 December 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

what about venom share thieves? how do they do in tPvP?
They're not used. The CC from basilisk and devourer doesn't need to be shared in order to help with burning down specific targets. I'm sure its possible to combine a venom share thief with some kind of mes/ele/warrior aoe burst comp to chain immobilize and stun, but it would require a comp built around venoms and the thief would lose his ability to be a mobile sweeper.

Venom share thieves don't add very much damage to fights. I'm sure someone will roll out with some kind of multi necro + venom share build eventually, but for now its not used.

Quote

So if Thieves have serious issues in tPvP due to their reliance on burst and cause serious issues in WvW due to their burst, what's the problem with nerfing their burst and buffing them in other important ways (like team support, versatility, and being able to contest points when stealthed), so they can still deal a respectable amount of sustained damage while having more ways to be a team player?
Because other classes have higher burst then thieves and their burst combos have layered disables or they don't require disables at all? Because blind completely demolishes any thief burst? The guardian was horrendous. Guardians in general shit on thieves. Thief burst hasn't been over the top since the nerfs on assassin sig, pistol whip, heart seeker and co.

The restriction on utility swapping demolishes any utility buff you'd attempt to give thieves. Either they get buff to specific skills that pigeonhole them into using them, or they get buffs to core mechanics like stealth and steal which thieves already use for utility.

Quote

Thanks archer.. Appreciate your in depth post.. It's great to hear from ppl who know what there talking about... With the new swapping restrictions it basically forces u to use a specific build.. What build will u generally be using now u can't change anything in game?
Honestly, I change my setup every map, and I switch my traits depending on what comp we end up running. We just shuffled our comp around because fotm necroraping points is too strong to ignore. I normally run guild on maps 2/3 and basi venom on map 1. Even untraited, trickshotted stone is very strong from keep. As for traits, since I can't slot in cute shit like tripwire to * over people in clocktower or to pull people off keep, I generally end up running shadowstep/refuge/shadow sig. I vary that core setup depending on opposing comps (Warrior centric comp? Put in roll for initiative in the place of sig for instance)

Edited by ArcherHenchman, 22 December 2012 - 02:47 AM.


#90 Falfyrel

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 03:47 AM

View PostArcherHenchman, on 22 December 2012 - 02:38 AM, said:

They're not used. The CC from basilisk and devourer doesn't need to be shared in order to help with burning down specific targets. I'm sure its possible to combine a venom share thief with some kind of mes/ele/warrior aoe burst comp to chain immobilize and stun, but it would require a comp built around venoms and the thief would lose his ability to be a mobile sweeper.

Venom share thieves don't add very much damage to fights. I'm sure someone will roll out with some kind of multi necro + venom share build eventually, but for now its not used.

Because other classes have higher burst then thieves and their burst combos have layered disables or they don't require disables at all? Because blind completely demolishes any thief burst? The guardian was horrendous. Guardians in general shit on thieves. Thief burst hasn't been over the top since the nerfs on assassin sig, pistol whip, heart seeker and co.[/background][/size][/font][/color]

The restriction on utility swapping demolishes any utility buff you'd attempt to give thieves. Either they get buff to specific skills that pigeonhole them into using them, or they get buffs to core mechanics like stealth and steal which thieves already use for utility.

Honestly, I change my setup every map, and I switch my traits depending on what comp we end up running. We just shuffled our comp around because fotm necroraping points is too strong to ignore. I normally run guild on maps 2/3 and basi venom on map 1. Even untraited, trickshotted stone is very strong from keep. As for traits, since I can't slot in cute shit like tripwire to * over people in clocktower or to pull people off keep, I generally end up running shadowstep/refuge/shadow sig. I vary that core setup depending on opposing comps (Warrior centric comp? Put in roll for initiative in the place of sig for instance) [/background][/size][/font][/color]

First, I'll let the Guardian video drop since it's clear by now that I'm declaring him a decent player by comparing him to a decent WvWer as a baseline, and you're declaring him horrendous by the standard of a tPvPer.

Second, "Other classes have higher burst than thieves?"



Which classes? 100B Frenzy warriors? Scepter elementalists? Mesmer shatter builds? Certainly not Necromancers, Rangers, Engineers, or Guardians. Controlled scenario (and WvW) or not, none of the above classes have the ability to deal 20k damage in a split second (this person's armor wasn't exactly low, either, at 2572), apart from maybe 100B Frenzy warriors who are incredibly easy to stop dead in their tracks, since 100B is a channeled skill and thus a single interrupt can reset it on cooldown.

Easily telegraphed, controlled scenario, terrible player or not: 20k damage in a single second is not good for the flow of PvP, and Thieves remain one of the only classes who can punish others that hard for making mistakes. Which makes them infest lower-level play like locusts, and makes them weak in higher-level play since many players aren't as new to the game.

Blind demolishes any burst other than ones dependent on multi-hit channeled skills, so that's a bit of a moot point - Blind is a condition specifically designed to counter bursts. Amusingly, since so many Blind skills are targeted rather than AoE or melee (Deathly Swarm, Flashing Blade if Thief isn't in melee, Smoldering Arrow, Static Shot if Thief isn't near any other enemy, Shadow Shot on Thieves, Blinding Flash...), the Thief actually has a pretty good counter to many Blind skills while in stealth, whereas many other classes not dependent on channeled bursts (Mesmer after the blindness-nerf, some Scepter elementalist builds) have to either remove Blind or suck it up.

Buffing specific skills to give them more utility or support potential would pigeonhole Thieves into using them. Granted, yes; buffing skills does tend to promote their use. But if it helps the Thief rise to a higher level of competitive viability outside of "niche burst" and "NPC killer" then I think it's clear which is the lesser evil. And it has even less of an impact if the team support is spread around multiple weapon sets and currently-underpowered utilities. Buffing stealth to be able to contest points would be a sound idea to make thieves better at point defense, and tweaking Steal and the granted abilities a bit would also be a decent idea to buff the "team potential" that Thieves have, because it's one of their most major weaknesses. I see every reason to think that both are actually decent ideas.

The change to utilities hurt every class, not just Thieves: there's no reason to change balance philosophy simply due to a lack of ability to swap.

Guardians are one of the hardest counters to Thieves that exist at the moment (up there with Necromancers), yes: but this is also partially because Guardians are extremely good at point defense, which tPvP is based around (as Budzasty expounded upon). In a game mode like WvW, or potentially any future sPvP modes which do not feature point-capturing as the main gameplay mode, this could well change, since Thieves also excel at escaping, and the Guardian is one of the least mobile classes in the game. While Guardians have options to catch Thieves, they're pretty crummy compared to most other classes.

Given wide discontent of/from Thieves in all levels of gameplay, though, something's clearly not balanced correctly with them if they're niche at higher levels of play and godlike at lower levels. And from your comments and those of other players, it seems like a decent solution would be - again - to buff their support and control potential, while lowering their burst damage.




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